Viernes (Fairy Tail) Conceptual Manipulation Rework

[Deceived3596]

Viernes is currently accepted to have Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation for this explanation here:

(Type 2. Was able to transform himself into a concept that has no physical body and is merged with the Gold Owl Guild. Can create conceptual copies of individuals that exist and they retain all of the same abilities as the real versions of the individual)

I have an issue with this explanation being used to gain Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. It can work for Type 3, but without further context, it can't work for Type 2.

Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation requires the user to manipulate a Concept whose sphere of influence, the things it defines and affects, exists across all instances of its existence. That is to say, if you manipulate the Concept of Fire for example, a Type 2 manipulation of that would affect all instances of "fire" across reality "fire" exists in. Viernes isn't doing that. He's rather manipulating the concepts of particular people, with particular attributes. He isn't affecting the Universals of these people, and these abilities. Type 2 Concepts are Universals, Type 3 Concepts are Particulars. Until evidenced, it's incorrect to assume he's manipulating any level of Universals with his Conceptual Manipulation. As such, his Conceptual Manipulation should be reworked to Type 3.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Isn’t he effecting all of the universal concept of himself tho? Like is manipulating the universal concept of Viernes

 

[Deceived3596]

Isn’t he effecting all of the universal concept of himself tho? Like is manipulating the universal concept of Viernes

Where is the evidence of him affecting the universal concept of himself?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Where is the evidence of him affecting the universal concept of himself?

Well there’s only one Viernes, so he’s effecting all of Viernes’ Concept… Like isn’t that a universal concept? Himself? He’s effecting all of the only Viernes in existence

He made it so he only exists as a concept

 

[Deceived3596]

Well there’s only one Viernes, so he’s effecting all of Viernes’ Concept… Like isn’t that a universal concept? Himself? He’s effecting all of the only Viernes in existence

He made it so he only exists as a concept

"Viernes", as in the character, wouldn't be the Universal Concept in this instance. It would rather be the name of "Viernes" that could be an arguable Universal Concept as "names" can be Universals. Universals are shared characteristics that objects affected by it have. What you're talking about is himself, the property holder of the name Viernes, manipulating himself to have his substance, himself existentially/compositionally, changed. That isn't him manipulating a Universal, It's him manipulating a Particular attribute about himself.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Tbh, this topic is pretty simple. I agree

 

[Epsilon_R]

I thought type 2 were concepts that are not independent to their area on influence. Like, concepts that can be destroyed/altered by destroying all objects bound to it (removing all red in the world to destroy the concepts of red for instance)

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with Type 3, since it's a personal concept being affected.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Aight if Type 3 is more fitting, that’s fine, I guess I misunderstood Type 2 is all

 

[Damage3245]

Sure, seems fine.

 

[Zackra1799]

shouldn't it be a type 2 concept since its stated multiple times that no one can interact with him, this includes Natsu who can interact with type 2 concepts?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Would that not just make Viernes a higher degree of intangible rather than Type 2?

 

[Zackra1799]

Would that not just make Viernes a higher degree of intangible rather than Type 2?

I suppose the question is, if a level of conceptual interaction fails to interact with an undefined concept, does that make said concept scale to said level of interaction, or should they be treated as 2 seperate things.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Personal concepts are considered to be type 3 without certain context so I agree.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

shouldn't it be a type 2 concept since its stated multiple times that no one can interact with him, this includes Natsu who can interact with type 2 concepts?

Not inherently so. It could just be that Viernes's Intangibility is higher, for a multitude of unknown reasons, compared to Natsu's ability to interact with things. It's never specifically commented on as to why Viernes's Intangibility is so potent (at least from what I know, I could be wrong). We can only assert claims without much proof, which is a big no no when it comes to granting things concrete ratings and such. We require some level of provable evidence, not just logical syllogisms.

Like, at the very best, I could only see an argument for a possible rating. I just don't agree with that interpretation for the reasoning above.

But since this thread was universally accepted by two mods, including an admin. I'll make the change here shortly.

Edit: I made the change, this thread can be closed.

 

[Zackra1799]

Not inherently so. It could just be that Viernes's Intangibility is higher, for a multitude of unknown reasons, compared to Natsu's ability to interact with things. It's never specifically commented on as to why Viernes's Intangibility is so potent (at least from what I know, I could be wrong). We can only assert claims without much proof, which is a big no no when it comes to granting things concrete ratings and such. We require some level of provable evidence, not just logical syllogisms.

Like, at the very best, I could only see an argument for a possible rating. I just don't agree with that interpretation for the reasoning above.

But since this thread was universally accepted by two mods, including an admin. I'll make the change here shortly.

I think I get what you're saying, so this would be abstract existence based on a type 3 concept, but has resistance to npi from type 2 concept manip?

 

[Deceived3596]

I think I get what you're saying, so this would be abstract existence based on a type 3 concept, but has resistance to npi from type 2 concept manip?

Arguably so, it would just depend on what you can connect with the evidence given right now. It probably wouldn't be a resistance, but more so Viernes's Intangibility being so potent that not even Type 2 Conceptual interaction is capable of interacting with em.

 

[LordGinSama]

Natsu's NPI / power null is directly related to his emotions. He can't burn concepts like time without a strong surge of emotion, I.E it's only something he can do at his absolute peak so I don't think it even came into the equation here so I don't think it's about layers.


Also not sure if I agree with Type 1 Abstract Existence for Viernes given how Type 1 AE works. He hasn't shown to be the true embodiment of what he's supposed to represent, as in Natsu never needed to directly effect the universal concept of "gold" to effect Viernes.