- 10,901
- 14,204
Downgrade? Nobody made any mention of a downgrade for DBZ throughout this thread lol. Unless you meant DBS, then my bad.
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The forgotten speed of Watagash
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
- Start date
- Status
DivineAura44
He/Him- 4,659
- 2,995
Unless it wasn't accepted, then in that case it's not a downgrade.
- 32,737
- 37,875
No, it should be written as "DBZ 10x multiplier revision" because downgrades aren't happening.
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It wasn't accepted, and the MFTL ratings are already on the profiles. AKM was more so voicing his personal frustrations with scaling speed solely through multipliers.
I respect him and his opinions, but I personally disagree for many reasons. In any case, there's no downgrade here. We'll just discuss the 10x Namek multiplier and DBS Gohan/Piccolo scaling at this point.
- 29,875
- 30,883
This thread really got blown out of proportions, and I really did not appreciate either side trying to regress the accepted scaling back to square one. Even AKM Sama said we should not be too extreme with lowballing; going from Relativistic+ to FTL for KKx2 Saiyan saga everyone is in favor of, then many other instances afterward. Not to mention, both in series and backup stuff make Kaioken 100% in our faces and lore scaling consistent. But as I said, the Massively FTL up to 596c was the most middle ground compromise we can give.
AKM wasn't disagreeing with the current ratings, only letting out the stress of how ironic it was combined by the fact that other staff members used to be unnecessarily a lot more strict. But going far into Massively FTL+ is only going to tempt other staff members to U-turn the thing and start saying "Everyone should peak Relativsitc+ period". I'm obviously against that, and so is AKM Sama, and nowadays, making the peak at FTL+ is a lot more hypothetical than Massively FTL, but Massively FTL+ is what's really blowing things out.
Anyway, I at least acknowledge that Firestorm and KLOL are being reasonable, but do not appreciate bold accusations on either side, more so from Ryu. I'm not a big fan of Ad Population or Appear to Authority, but I do strongly value Quality over Quantity over the other way around. As well as Facts > Opinions on any side. Although, sometimes facts are impossible to approve, thus it is only up to interpretation.
Anyway, I am tired of dealing with Watagash stuff, but I still think AKM is in the right. Both the generic robber and Barry Kahn are individually characters weaker than Mister Satan, so their Ki empowering Watagash wouldn't make Watagash much stronger to begin with. Or at least both possessions would have given him similar power ups, but the robber barely gave him the strength to match base Gohan where as Barry Kahn monster transformation briefly overpowered his SSJ transformation. Also, Gohan "Knocking out Watagash" I will note that is likely he was weakened for Jaco to capture him. However, it does not explain how Jaco was able to catch him the first time before the beginning of the episode. Seems unlikely he possessed someone or great very strong prior. But I collected the scans here about the lore behind Watagash's power.
Whether I say it after work later tonight, or before work tomorrow morning, I still would wish to defend the current ratings for Gohan and Piccolo. I still have been straw-manned in certain areas that I will need to address once I'm ready. As well as more clarified context.
AKM wasn't disagreeing with the current ratings, only letting out the stress of how ironic it was combined by the fact that other staff members used to be unnecessarily a lot more strict. But going far into Massively FTL+ is only going to tempt other staff members to U-turn the thing and start saying "Everyone should peak Relativsitc+ period". I'm obviously against that, and so is AKM Sama, and nowadays, making the peak at FTL+ is a lot more hypothetical than Massively FTL, but Massively FTL+ is what's really blowing things out.
Anyway, I at least acknowledge that Firestorm and KLOL are being reasonable, but do not appreciate bold accusations on either side, more so from Ryu. I'm not a big fan of Ad Population or Appear to Authority, but I do strongly value Quality over Quantity over the other way around. As well as Facts > Opinions on any side. Although, sometimes facts are impossible to approve, thus it is only up to interpretation.
Anyway, I am tired of dealing with Watagash stuff, but I still think AKM is in the right. Both the generic robber and Barry Kahn are individually characters weaker than Mister Satan, so their Ki empowering Watagash wouldn't make Watagash much stronger to begin with. Or at least both possessions would have given him similar power ups, but the robber barely gave him the strength to match base Gohan where as Barry Kahn monster transformation briefly overpowered his SSJ transformation. Also, Gohan "Knocking out Watagash" I will note that is likely he was weakened for Jaco to capture him. However, it does not explain how Jaco was able to catch him the first time before the beginning of the episode. Seems unlikely he possessed someone or great very strong prior. But I collected the scans here about the lore behind Watagash's power.
Whether I say it after work later tonight, or before work tomorrow morning, I still would wish to defend the current ratings for Gohan and Piccolo. I still have been straw-manned in certain areas that I will need to address once I'm ready. As well as more clarified context.
- 11,059
- 13,750
The Watagash feat is perfectly legitimate, although it is yet to be proven that his hosts get the same speed. This thread should have been closed a long time ago, but it's my fault that I kept arguing over and over in hopes that the opposition would be willing to see the faults in their approach. It's clear that they are unwilling to do so and want to push this simply based on assumptions and number of people supporting those assumptions.
Basically this is how the threads went
Revision gets over 20 knowledgeable people supporting it but @AKM sama and @DarkDragonMedeus disagree.
1. We couldn't prove that DBZ characters are MFTL+ besides having a rel+ feat and stacking multipliers on top of that, due to how insane the jump is.
2. But we wanted MFTL+ DBZ anyway so we made another thread to change the Gohan and Piccolo scaling so they scale back to DBZ.
3. And we make assumptions on the Watagash feat and try to scale that feat to Gohan so that it scales to DBZ.
4. And we failed to provide any reasonable evidence for that so we just try to push for it with numbers and FRAs.
5. And when staff don't agree with our side we cry "staff favoritism".
See, I can make a comment criticizing and blaming the opposition too. But there's no use in doing that. The evidence is lacking, and things are not decided by popularity. I should have closed the thread long ago when it started getting circular, but I didn't in hopes to avoid arguments like "silencing the opposition" and "power abuse". Guess circumstances like that are simply unavoidable around here and no matter what you do, you end up getting blamed either way.
Anyway, closing this.
Basically this is how the threads went
Revision gets over 20 knowledgeable people supporting it but @AKM sama and @DarkDragonMedeus disagree.
1. We couldn't prove that DBZ characters are MFTL+ besides having a rel+ feat and stacking multipliers on top of that, due to how insane the jump is.
2. But we wanted MFTL+ DBZ anyway so we made another thread to change the Gohan and Piccolo scaling so they scale back to DBZ.
3. And we make assumptions on the Watagash feat and try to scale that feat to Gohan so that it scales to DBZ.
4. And we failed to provide any reasonable evidence for that so we just try to push for it with numbers and FRAs.
5. And when staff don't agree with our side we cry "staff favoritism".
See, I can make a comment criticizing and blaming the opposition too. But there's no use in doing that. The evidence is lacking, and things are not decided by popularity. I should have closed the thread long ago when it started getting circular, but I didn't in hopes to avoid arguments like "silencing the opposition" and "power abuse". Guess circumstances like that are simply unavoidable around here and no matter what you do, you end up getting blamed either way.
Anyway, closing this.
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