The End All Be All of Fire Force Revision Threads!

[Maitreya12]

To All Staff and Regular Members Viewing this CRT:

Because this CRT is kinda getting bogged down and going back and forth, I am now going to summarize the current counter argument as well as address them in this post to to try and keep this concise. Treat this post as a kind of second OP if you will.

Primary Counter Argument: “Adolla is only merging with the planet, not the whole universe. The usage of the term ‘world’ is meant to mean planet and not universe.”

Rebuttal: This is false. As stated in the OP, the reality warping that is caused in the series is due to Adolla’s world merging with the real world. What Adolla is merging with is the cause of the reality warping. Hence the dichotomy between Adolla merging with just the planet to

So, to prove the position that Adolla is merging with the wide spread universe and demonstrate the usage of the term “world” here refers to “universe” as opposed to “planet,” what needs to be done is prove Adolla’s reality warping extends pasts a planetary range. Let me make it clear though, it can mean “planet” depending on the statement, but that doesn’t mean it just means planet in all contexts.

With that being said, I will first state and explain the feats demonstrating my position as well as counter the arguments made against them. Let’s begin:

Feat #1: Reality was 3D, Now it’s 2D

Counter: “Space wasn’t shown. All that we see is the earth in 3-D art-style.”

Rebuttal: Irrelevant.

What was shown was reality being 3D. Earth is just the place reality was shown because it’s the center of the story. But reality was the thing being shown to be in 3D. Not “just the earth.”

Trying to insinuate that just because only the earth was shown to be in 3D therefore the rest of the universe wasn’t is not only baseless but totally nonsensical as well. When you go into outer space the art-style doesn’t magically shift into anime-like. No reality remains the same no matter the planet. Therefore the art-style of the universe matches that of the planet as is standard assumption.

Tldr; Earth being shown to be in 3D doesn’t matter and has no bearing on the argument because the focus isn’t on the earth. It’s on reality as a whole. Therefore this reality warping was done on the wider universe and not “just the earth.”

Feat #2: The stars are Shifting!

Counter: “The stars were never reality warped, they were just created because they’re closer to the earth.”

Rebuttal: Literal Headcanon.

There is no basis for this assertion. None whatsoever. The ability being referred to here (creation) is an ability not even listed on Shinra’s profile. That’s because it’s an ability that has never been demonstrated in the series. It’s only ever been reality warping. We even have a visual representation of what this reality warping looks like thanks to the Fire Force anime.

As you can see only reality warping is done. No creation is involved. If that wasn’t enough, it straight up outright stated the stars are being reality warped and not created.

Right here it says the very physics of the world have been altered including the stars and the moon.

It’s been outright stated that reality warping is happening on the stars and moon. They are not being created just like how the moon wasn’t created and rather reality warped.

To further support this notion, here’s another statement directly stating Adolla is affecting the stars.

“Determine the future of the stars” is quite the direct way of saying Adolla is affecting the stars with its reality warping as well.

The position “the stars were closer to the earth therefore they were created.” Is once again baseless because the stare could’ve simply been reality warped closer to the earth as they changed into little blocks.

How do I know this? Well it’s because that’s exactly what Shinra did!

He reality warped the sun into a big dumb happy face and brought it closer to the earth as is notably seen in in the image as well as its sequel Soul Eater. So why on earth is it being presumed the stars were created instead of what’s been consistently shown and stated to be happening which is reality warping?

TLDR; This counter position is literally just fantasy. There’s actually nothing that supports this assertion. Nothing at all. It’s literal fanfiction.

In Summary:

The feats presented in the series overwhelmingly demonstrate reality warping on a far grander scale than planetary range.

The counter positions’ assertions of Adolla merging with only the planet is null and void due to the presence of multiple reality warping feats far extending past planetary and stellar ranges as well as the presence of statements outright saying the physics of the universe has been altered.

The assertion that the stars were simply created and not reality warped is completely unfounded, baseless, and nonsensical as this assertion can be found nowhere in the series and is directly contradicted by multiple statements outright stating that the stars have been reality warped and Adolla is a threat to the stars.

Due to the fact that the reality warping is caused by Adolla’s merger with reality, the usage of the term “world” as well as Adolla’s total merge is done through the wider universe as opposed to just the planet due to the fact that the reality warping extends to the universe and is not limited to just the earth.

Now that this has been said and done I would like to hear opinions/stances from people about which position is to be favored so I can formally count the agreements, disagreements, and neutral stances here.

Quoting just cause I think this post should be on top of the page so it’s clearly visible.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Quoting just cause I think this post should be on top of the page so it’s clearly visible.

Your current stance is in that I take it? And I can respond to it instead of the last one directed at me?

 

[Maitreya12]

Your current stance is in that I take it? And I can respond to it instead of the last one directed at me?

Ye that latest post is meant to rebut the current counter positions so that one with those arguments is probably the best one to respond to.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I literally did though.

Well you did not answer it completely, the GC causes the death of humans on the planet, the major purpose of the GC is to create a sun i.e. turn the planet into a star.
With the completion of the great cataclysm, this planet was made into a sun.
Said by the most knowlegdeable peron on GC.
Anyway back to the basics again, where was it ever stated that the Adolla realm is universal sized, especially when we saw the size of adolla realm drawn for us>

 

[Maitreya12]

Well you did not answer it completely, the GC causes the death of humans on the planet, the major purpose of the GC is to create a sun i.e. turn the planet into a star.
With the completion of the great cataclysm, this planet was made into a sun.
Said by the most knowlegdeable peron on GC.
Anyway back to the basics again, where was it ever stated that the Adolla realm is universal sized, especially when we saw the size of adolla realm drawn for us>

Ok? That doesn’t contradict what I said nor does that mean I didn’t answer your question. You asked me what the end goal of Adolla was and I answered that Adolla wants to bring about the death of everything. If you wanted me to be more specific as to what is going to happen to the earth you could’ve asked but I felt as though my answer was perfectly suitable for the question you gave.

No no, now you answer my question. I answered yours so you answer mine. So I repeat. What did the fire force’s reality originally look like and what caused it to change to the way it is now?

If you’re unwilling to answer my question but expect me to answer yours then I say you’re arguing in bad faith and don’t see the need to continue answering you if you’re unwilling to do the same.

 

[narutosage15]

Well you did not answer it completely, the GC causes the death of humans on the planet, the major purpose of the GC is to create a sun i.e. turn the planet into a star.
With the completion of the great cataclysm, this planet was made into a sun.
Said by the most knowlegdeable peron on GC.
Anyway back to the basics again, where was it ever stated that the Adolla realm is universal sized, especially when we saw the size of adolla realm drawn for us>

Why are you deviating from the main premise and trying to form a whole new argument from headcanon?
You keep on going about how the GC caused a destruction in the “planet” and that in no way affects it’s range
Does it have to be stated? Via Occam’s razor we have the evidences to show that its reach is uni in size and another supporting evidence would be the fact that sho called it a place containing countless flames wouldn’t have said that is the space of adolla wasn't that wide

 

[narutosage15]

I’ve yet to see a proper refutation for all the points provided
Just disagreements for the sake of disagreeing

 

[PrinceofPein]

To All Staff and Regular Members Viewing this CRT:

Because this CRT is kinda getting bogged down and going back and forth, I am now going to summarize the current counter argument as well as address them in this post to to try and keep this concise. Treat this post as a kind of second OP if you will.

Primary Counter Argument: “Adolla is only merging with the planet, not the whole universe. The usage of the term ‘world’ is meant to mean planet and not universe.”

Rebuttal: This is false. As stated in the OP, the reality warping that is caused in the series is due to Adolla’s world merging with the real world. What Adolla is merging with is the cause of the reality warping. Hence the dichotomy between Adolla merging with just the planet to

So, to prove the position that Adolla is merging with the wide spread universe and demonstrate the usage of the term “world” here refers to “universe” as opposed to “planet,” what needs to be done is prove Adolla’s reality warping extends pasts a planetary range. Let me make it clear though, it can mean “planet” depending on the statement, but that doesn’t mean it just means planet in all contexts.

Again Adolla was only merging with the planett, argue with the scans, you literally cannot bring out one place where it was stated that adolla is merging with the universe, in fact we have the visuals of adolla merging with the planet, and not the universe
And the whole "He cannot draw adolla merging with the unniverse, so he drew just the planet" is bogus if you cannot show us where ohkubo said that. Not only that he never made a statement, so argue with the scans again

1. Great cataclysm completion, and simply planet of flames

2. The birth of second sun

3. The great cataclysm now completed

4. The great cataclysm completion again

5. And the planet of water became the star.

6. The earth has become the sun

7. Only ones left on earth

8. Second sun

9. To the planet of black despair

10. Look at this planet
https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Fire-Brigade-Of-Flames/0296-009.png

All that was shown all through the GC that was been turned into flames is the Planet and not the universe, the completion of the GC is simply the planet becoming a star

With that being said, I will first state and explain the feats demonstrating my position as well as counter the arguments made against them. Let’s begin:

Feat #1: Reality was 3D, Now it’s 2D

Counter: “Space wasn’t shown. All that we see is the earth in 3-D art-style.”

Rebuttal: Irrelevant.

What was shown was reality being 3D. Earth is just the place reality was shown because it’s the center of the story. But reality was the thing being shown to be in 3D. Not “just the earth.”

Trying to insinuate that just because only the earth was shown to be in 3D therefore the rest of the universe wasn’t is not only baseless but totally nonsensical as well. When you go into outer space the art-style doesn’t magically shift into anime-like. No reality remains the same no matter the planet. Therefore the art-style of the universe matches that of the planet as is standard assumption.

Tldr; Earth being shown to be in 3D doesn’t matter and has no bearing on the argument because the focus isn’t on the earth. It’s on reality as a whole. Therefore this reality warping was done on the wider universe and not “just the earth.”

Except we have other feats and feats of an actual GC and it shows just the earth, if a full and perfect GC only affected earth, you will need more than what you are claiming to say a cataclysm that is incomplete affected the whole universe, so yes Bring your scans
Let's not forget that, GC simply creates stars,

We will cause a great cataclysm.... turn this planet into a world of flame once more.... That is our mission..... for that purpose alone we

You want to make this planet? A STAR

the current sun was from a great cataclysm from the past

in fact I can make a claim that all suns in the universe was created through GC, which would mean that GC gradually RW the universe and not a time

Feat #2: The stars are Shifting!

The stars are shifting was never ever said, this is you trying to twist those words

Counter: “The stars were never reality warped, they were just created because they’re closer to the earth.”

Rebuttal: Literal Headcanon.

There is no basis for this assertion. None whatsoever. The ability being referred to here (creation) is an ability not even listed on Shinra’s profile. That’s because it’s an ability that has never been demonstrated in the series. It’s only ever been reality warping. We even have a visual representation of what this reality warping looks like thanks to the Fire Force anime.

As you can see only reality warping is done. No creation is involved. If that wasn’t enough, it straight up outright stated the stars are being reality warped and not created.

This shows the moon and not the stars, what is your point here, Moon =/= Stars.

Right here it says the very physics of the world have been altered including the stars and the moon.

It’s been outright stated that reality warping is happening on the stars and moon. They are not being created just like how the moon wasn’t created and rather reality warped.

To further support this notion, here’s another statement directly stating Adolla is affecting the stars.

“Determine the future of the stars” is quite the direct way of saying Adolla is affecting the stars with its reality warping as well.

The position “the stars were closer to the earth therefore they were created.” Is once again baseless because the stare could’ve simply been reality warped closer to the earth as they changed into little blocks.

How do I know this? Well it’s because that’s exactly what Shinra did!

He reality warped the sun into a big dumb happy face and brought it closer to the earth as is notably seen in in the image as well as its sequel Soul Eater. So why on earth is it being presumed the stars were created instead of what’s been consistently shown and stated to be happening which is reality warping?

TLDR; This counter position is literally just fantasy. There’s actually nothing that supports this assertion. Nothing at all. It’s literal fanfiction.

Well since we are talking about Reality warping of stars or planets, lets talk about the GC again.
Stars are created from GC and needs years of preparation to do it, if the Evangelist is so great as to RW stars, she can literally turn the planet to stars and would not need the useless shenaningans.
Rather, we were given a 300+ chapter of build up needed to Reality warp a single planet over the course of thousands of years, when it can be literally done by the all power evangelist that can RW the whole universe.
So tell me why is that the Evangelist is strong enough to RW the entire universe but cannot change a single planet into the Sun? by simply setting the whole planet on fire

And before you even go off as usual, she changed the properties of the supposedly stars she made so I am sure she can do that to earth to and turn it into a fiery burning gas.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ok? That doesn’t contradict what I said nor does that mean I didn’t answer your question. You asked me what the end goal of Adolla was and I answered that Adolla wants to bring about the death of everything. If you wanted me to be more specific as to what is going to happen to the earth you could’ve asked but I felt as though my answer was perfectly suitable for the question you gave.

Except that is the point of a CRT, to get to the bottom of something, so Specifics are needed. So I am glad you accepted the GC was turning the planet into a sun.

No no, now you answer my question. I answered yours so you answer mine. So I repeat. What did the fire force’s reality originally look like and what caused it to change to the way it is now?

The earth and its people looked like IRL before they were changed to the manga style.

If you’re unwilling to answer my question but expect me to answer yours then I say you’re arguing in bad faith and don’t see the need to continue answering you if you’re unwilling to do the same.

You could have waited till I was done ansswering all my questions before askign yours dont be so impatient.
Anyway my question is still this

where was it ever stated that the Adolla realm is universal sized, especially when we saw the size of adolla realm drawn for us>

 

[Maitreya12]

Again Adolla was only merging with the planett, argue with the scans, you literally cannot bring out one place where it was stated that adolla is merging with the universe, in fact we have the visuals of adolla merging with the planet, and not the universe

You’re literally arguing with the manga right here. You didn’t refute anything you literally just said “no you’re wrong” and left it at that.

This is a non-argument.

And the whole "He cannot draw adolla merging with the unniverse, so he drew just the planet" is bogus if you cannot show us where ohkubo said that. Not only that he never made a statement, so argue with the scans again

Wtf are you talking about? Where was any of this even argued?

All that was shown all through the GC that was been turned into flames is the Planet and not the universe, the completion of the GC is simply the planet becoming a star

Except the fact that reality was originally 3D and now it’s 2D fundamentally disproving your notion that “only the planet” is being affected by Adolla since we quite clearly see

Except we have other feats and feats of an actual GC and it shows just the earth, if a full and perfect GC only affected earth, you will need more than what you are claiming to say a cataclysm that is incomplete affected the whole universe, so yes Bring your scans
Let's not forget that, GC simply creates stars,

Literally the fact that we can see the universe in 2D anime style disproves your notion of it only affecting the earth. Also even in the very last pages where it shows the cataclysm completed we can literally still see star shaped blocks in the background so you’re still wrong in that stars have also been reality warped.

in fact I can make a claim that all suns in the universe was created through GC, which would mean that GC gradually RW the universe and not a time

No you can’t since it was only stated the sun was made into a star through the cataclysm and not any other star also that directly contradicted by this feat right here showing the stars being instantly reality warped.

The stars are shifting was never ever said, this is you trying to twist those words

Objectively false. You didn’t even try and disprove the claim. You simply said they’re “twisted” well sorry bud but argue with the manga not me.

This shows the moon and not the stars, what is your point here, Moon =/= Stars.

And the moon was reality warped. Just like how the stars are reality warped. No creation ability is ever seen or stated.

Headcanon.

Well since we are talking about Reality warping of stars or planets, lets talk about the GC again.
Stars are created from GC and needs years of preparation to do it,

The sun was created from a cataclysm. Not all stars. Please substantiate your claim that all stars were created from the cataclysm.

if the Evangelist is so great as to RW stars, she can literally turn the planet to stars and would not need the useless shenaningans.

Maybe it’s cause the last cataclysm was directly stated to have failed. Adolla can only bring about the death of humanity if humanity desires it due to the fact that Adolla is simply the collective thought of humanity.

Rather, we were given a 300+ chapter of build up needed to Reality warp a single planet over the course of thousands of years, when it can be literally done by the all power evangelist that can RW the whole universe.
So tell me why is that the Evangelist is strong enough to RW the entire universe but cannot change a single planet into the Sun? by simply setting the whole planet on fire

Because the reality warping is only done through Adolla merging with the universe?? And Adolla didn’t fully merge with the world before? Like what are you talking about here. Also sorry to say but literally 250 years ago all of reality was warped into a completely different style. Not just “the earth.”

And before you even go off as usual, she changed the properties of the supposedly stars she made so I am sure she can do that to earth to and turn it into a fiery burning gas.

No she can’t unless humanity totally wishes for that death because Adolla is the collective unconscious of humanity. Adolla needs humanity to fall into despair so it can merge with the universe and cause its reality warping. It can’t be done on its own because Adolla is not merging with the universe on its own.

 

[Maitreya12]

Except that is the point of a CRT, to get to the bottom of something, so Specifics are needed. So I am glad you accepted the GC was turning the planet into a sun.

When did I ever deny it?

The earth and its people looked like IRL before they were changed to the manga style.

Cool. What about the rest of the universe? Why is only the earth reality warped and not the rest of the universe when the rest of the universe can be shown in 2D anime style?

You could have waited till I was done ansswering all my questions before askign yours dont be so impatient.
Anyway my question is still this

Or we could just go back and forth like this answering each other’s questions. I have no idea how many questions you have and I’m not gonna be stuck here just continually answering your questions until we finally get to mine. We can just answer each other’s.

To answer your question, Uh I don’t think any size was ever stated for Adolla’s realm. But I also don’t think I ever claimed any size for it either so idk the purpose of this question. However Adolla does encompass the very concept of the “world” so there is that.

 

[narutosage15]

Again Adolla was only merging with the planett, argue with the scans, you literally cannot bring out one place where it was stated that adolla is merging with the universe, in fact we have the visuals of adolla merging with the planet, and not the universe
And the whole "He cannot draw adolla merging with the unniverse, so he drew just the planet" is bogus if you cannot show us where ohkubo said that. Not only that he never made a statement, so argue with the scans again

You tend to skip other contexts of feats and dwell on one particular event huh?
What was the main goal of the GC wasn’t it to turn the earth to a star? This in no way implies or denotes the fact that adolla was limited to only the earth, seeing as the main focus was to destroy the earth and not the universe then adolla doesn’t need a direct statement to affect the entire universe but using the evidences provided we know it affects the universe and with various statements to back this up
Refrain from using fixated destruction statements from the white clad to determine the range when none of their statements makes reference to the size or range of adolla

All that was shown all through the GC that was been turned into flames is the Planet and not the universe, the completion of the GC is simply the planet becoming a star

What about the moon that was affected?
The stars? Are we going to ignore the things that were altered just cause the main goal of the GC was planetary based and doesn’t affect the range?

Except we have other feats and feats of an actual GC and it shows just the earth, if a full and perfect GC only affected earth, you will need more than what you are claiming to say a cataclysm that is incomplete affected the whole universe, so yes Bring your scans
Let's not forget that, GC simply creates stars,

Was the GC supposed to destroy the earth or universe? Once you’ve cleared this leave this point
Again address the the range of the adolla with supporting evidence

in fact I can make a claim that all suns in the universe was created through GC, which would mean that GC gradually RW the universe and not a time

How would you make that claim when there was a statement that the GC had only occurred twice and basically you’re saying all those stars were planets
LMAO

The stars are shifting was never ever said, this is you trying to twist those words

This shows the moon and not the stars, what is your point here, Moon =/= Stars.

Moon and stars were shown what else do you want?

Well since we are talking about Reality warping of stars or planets, lets talk about the GC again.
Stars are created from GC and needs years of preparation to do it, if the Evangelist is so great as to RW stars, she can literally turn the planet to stars and would not need the useless shenaningans.
Rather, we were given a 300+ chapter of build up needed to Reality warp a single planet over the course of thousands of years, when it can be literally done by the all power evangelist that can RW the whole universe.
So tell me why is that the Evangelist is strong enough to RW the entire universe but cannot change a single planet into the Sun? by simply setting the whole planet on fire

How does this address any point?
Where was it stated that stars were formed from the GC? It was stated that the GC only created the last sun and is doing so for earth they never made mention that was the case for literally all the stars that shown in the verse
Stop using headcanon

And before you even go off as usual, she changed the properties of the supposedly stars she made so I am sure she can do that to earth to and turn it into a fiery burning gas.

Not a refutation to anything

 

[Aernasilver]

This scan you're using to say it's universal doesn't show anything universal in size at all.

Also just because they can affect the stars doesn't mean they can affect the universe.

 

[narutosage15]

This scan you're using to say it's universal doesn't show anything universal in size at all.

Also just because they can affect the stars doesn't mean they can affect the universe.

That wasn’t the scan used
And what are you implying exactly?
Stars and star clusters were shown to be altered with the supporting evidence saying the universe was being changed
Again you’re not giving a proper rebuttal
They said world and universe in several places

 

[Aernasilver]

That scan was used: "This is what the fire force universe used to look like." It just shows the world (Earth).

The fact they use the word "world" and "universe" separately means every time "world' is used it is referring to Earth.

Edit: Just before I get bombarded with "world can mean universe as well" I know. But the fact that the author has already used both the word "world" for Earth and "universe" for universe (******* duh) I don't agree with the other usages of the word "World" to refer to as the universe.

 

[Halkum145]

I am with Maitreya.

That scan was used: "This is what the fire force universe used to look like." It just shows the world (Earth).

the part shown here is not where you see the purpose. In the part shown, the world is drawn with 3d real life style before adolla comes, and it is drawn with 2d anime style after adolla comes. (the important thing here is to switch from 3d real life style to 2d anime style, not showing the world)

We argue that the word "sekai" is used as the universe, not the world, since there is a dimension difference after Adolla came.

 

[Alexander]

That scan was used: "This is what the fire force universe used to look like." It just shows the world (Earth).

The fact they use the word "world" and "universe" separately means every time "world' is used it is referring to Earth.

Edit: Just before I get bombarded with "world can mean universe as well" I know. But the fact that the author has already used both the word "world" for Earth and "universe" for universe (******* duh) I don't agree with the other usages of the word "World" to refer to as the universe.

again, physics do not belong to the earth, stars do not belong to the earth, the moon does not belong to the earth.
everything belongs to the universe outside the earth,the Earth is not the only thing that was affected in the cataclysm.

 

[Maitreya12]

This scan you're using to say it's universal doesn't show anything universal in size at all.

Also just because they can affect the stars doesn't mean they can affect the universe.

I already addressed this point in my counter post.

It showing the earth has no bearing on the argument because the focus of the argument isn’t on the earth but on reality as a whole. Reality is in a 3D style but was changed to 2D. Space doesn’t magically shift art styles when you leave the earth. Reality matches the universe no matter the planet you’re on. So Fire Force just showing the earth to be in 3D doesn’t matter because reality remains the same no matter where you go.

 

[Alexander]

Again, it doesn't make sense that the earth is 3D and the universe is 2D, because it literally can't be.

 

[Deceived3596]

Alexander just hit y'all with "it's axiomatic" and one shotted every single counter argument you can think of. Challenger-tier level debater.

 

[Maitreya12]

UPDATE:

Doing just a tad bit more research I was able to come across these statements made by both a very knowledgeable member in Fire Force who had been around pre cataclysm as well as the narrator itself stating that the cataclysm was “going to rewrite the rules of the world.”

Now, due to the fact that all of reality was once 3D (as also shown in the statements themselves) and is now 2D. “World” can only mean “universe” here and strictly not just “planet” because more than just the planet was reality warped.

Not only that, but the statement falls directly in line with another statement made saying Adolla was changing the physics of the universe.

“World” can only mean “Universe” here in this context because the changing of reality extended past more than just the “Planet.”

That should be as clear cut as can be.

 

[Halkum145]

I really don't understand those who still disagree despite these arguments. but we will win no matter what

 

[Alexander]

I really don't understand those who still disagree despite these arguments. but we will win no matter what

I think no staff member disagrees with the arguments, because I don't know exactly.

 

[Maitreya12]

Aight. Imma start counting the votes

 

[Shey]

I'm going back on being neutral to agreeing with 3A/L2C range and the other I'm neutral agreeing with physical AP

 

[Maitreya12]

Agree: @Maitreya @Arnoldstone18 @CloverDragon03 (agrees with universal range) @Deceived3596 (agrees with universal range) @Alexander @InfiniteDay @PowerToScale (agrees with universal range) @narutosage15 @CurrySenpai @Dalesean027 (agrees with universal range) @Shmooply @Halkum145 @chosen @SupremeGilgamesh @Shey (agrees with universal range) @Greatsage13th @Zoldyck59 @AKUTO123

Neutral: @CloverDragon03 (neutral, leaning towards agree for physical stats) @Deceived3596 (neutral/leaning towards agree on physical stats) @Dalesean027 (neutral, leaning towards agree on physical stats) @RandomGuy2345 @Shey (neutral on physical stats) @PowerToScale (neutral on physical stats)

Disagree: @Arc7Kuroi @Pain_to12

If anyone’s position change or if I placed you wrong please let me know but as far as I can tell these are the current positions of everyone that has commented their stances. Further comments/stances from people who have not yet commented would also be much appreciated.

 

[Maitreya12]

I'm going back on being neutral to agreeing with 3A/L2C range and the other I'm neutral agreeing with physical AP

Damn you got me

 

[Shey]

Damn you got me

It's all thanks to Walexander

 

[PowerToScale]

@Maitreya put me down as neutral for physical stats

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

To All Staff and Regular Members Viewing this CRT:

Because this CRT is kinda getting bogged down and going back and forth, I am now going to summarize the current counter argument as well as address them in this post to to try and keep this concise. Treat this post as a kind of second OP if you will.

Primary Counter Argument: “Adolla is only merging with the planet, not the whole universe. The usage of the term ‘world’ is meant to mean planet and not universe.”

Rebuttal: This is false. As stated in the OP, the reality warping that is caused in the series is due to Adolla’s world merging with the real world. What Adolla is merging with is the cause of the reality warping. Hence the dichotomy between Adolla merging with just the planet to

So, to prove the position that Adolla is merging with the wide spread universe and demonstrate the usage of the term “world” here refers to “universe” as opposed to “planet,” what needs to be done is prove Adolla’s reality warping extends pasts a planetary range. Let me make it clear though, it can mean “planet” depending on the statement, but that doesn’t mean it just means planet in all contexts.

With that being said, I will first state and explain the feats demonstrating my position as well as counter the arguments made against them. Let’s begin:

Nothing in that scan you sent proves that world in that context means universe. In fact do you know what happened towards the end of the manga has the cataclysm was nearing completion, it devoured the planet (world) in black flames. You can't claim it's false and then send a scan that doesn't support your claim. World meaning universe here is nothing more than your headcanon at worst and a flimsy equal interpretation at best.

Feat #1: Reality was 3D, Now it’s 2D

Counter: “Space wasn’t shown. All that we see is the earth in 3-D art-style.”

Rebuttal: Irrelevant.

What was shown was reality being 3D. Earth is just the place reality was shown because it’s the center of the story. But reality was the thing being shown to be in 3D. Not “just the earth.”

Trying to insinuate that just because only the earth was shown to be in 3D therefore the rest of the universe wasn’t is not only baseless but totally nonsensical as well. When you go into outer space the art-style doesn’t magically shift into anime-like. No reality remains the same no matter the planet. Therefore the art-style of the universe matches that of the planet as is standard assumption.

Tldr; Earth being shown to be in 3D doesn’t matter and has no bearing on the argument because the focus isn’t on the earth. It’s on reality as a whole. Therefore this reality warping was done on the wider universe and not “just the earth.”

No, the onus is on you to prove the entire universe was affected. We do not have to disprove that, you are asserting the positive claim, so no it isn't irrelevant. Please provide evidence of universal scales being affected.

Feat #2: The stars are Shifting!

Counter: “The stars were never reality warped, they were just created because they’re closer to the earth.”

Rebuttal: Literal Headcanon.

There is no basis for this assertion. None whatsoever. The ability being referred to here (creation) is an ability not even listed on Shinra’s profile. That’s because it’s an ability that has never been demonstrated in the series. It’s only ever been reality warping. We even have a visual representation of what this reality warping looks like thanks to the Fire Force anime.

As you can see only reality warping is done. No creation is involved. If that wasn’t enough, it straight up outright stated the stars are being reality warped and not created.

As of now your rebuttal is "they reality warped the moon". Luckily for me I never claimed they didn't reality warp the moon. So moot point.

Right here it says the very physics of the world have been altered including the stars and the moon.

It’s been outright stated that reality warping is happening on the stars and moon. They are not being created just like how the moon wasn’t created and rather reality warped.

To further support this notion, here’s another statement directly stating Adolla is affecting the stars.

“Determine the future of the stars” is quite the direct way of saying Adolla is affecting the stars with its reality warping as well.

He's simply talking about the cartoon stars in the sky. He never once says "Adolla took stars that were 100s of ly away, reality warped them, and brought them closer". Claiming such is an unsubstantiated assumption. "Determining the future of the stars" isn't an inherently literal claim referring to every single star in the universe, at least not provably so in this case. It could simply be in reference to the cartoon stars created near the planet, it could be a metaphor, etc etc.

The position “the stars were closer to the earth therefore they were created.” Is once again baseless because the stare could’ve simply been reality warped closer to the earth as they changed into little blocks.

How do I know this? Well it’s because that’s exactly what Shinra did!

He reality warped the sun into a big dumb happy face and brought it closer to the earth as is notably seen in in the image as well as its sequel Soul Eater. So why on earth is it being presumed the stars were created instead of what’s been consistently shown and stated to be happening which is reality warping?

TLDR; This counter position is literally just fantasy. There’s actually nothing that supports this assertion. Nothing at all. It’s literal fanfiction.

Few things wrong with this. One it isn't baseless considering we never actually saw any stars move. Two we don't know actually what happened with the smiley sun. It isn't explained if Shinra putting despair into the sun made it appear larger, actually larger, of if he simply created another object in the sky that perpetually blocks the sun. It's just never explained, but more importantly you cannot prove that the smiley sun is the irl sun brought closer to earth, that is what we would call a baseless assumption.

In Summary:

The feats presented in the series overwhelmingly demonstrate reality warping on a far grander scale than planetary range.

The counter positions’ assertions of Adolla merging with only the planet is null and void due to the presence of multiple reality warping feats far extending past planetary and stellar ranges as well as the presence of statements outright saying the physics of the universe has been altered.

The assertion that the stars were simply created and not reality warped is completely unfounded, baseless, and nonsensical as this assertion can be found nowhere in the series and is directly contradicted by multiple statements outright stating that the stars have been reality warped and Adolla is a threat to the stars.

Due to the fact that the reality warping is caused by Adolla’s merger with reality, the usage of the term “world” as well as Adolla’s total merge is done through the wider universe as opposed to just the planet due to the fact that the reality warping extends to the universe and is not limited to just the earth.

Now that this has been said and done I would like to hear opinions/stances from people about which position is to be favored so I can formally count the agreements, disagreements, and neutral stances here.

Formally count me for disagree thanks.

 

[Alexander]

He's simply talking about the cartoon stars in the sky. He never once says "Adolla took stars that were 100s of ly away, reality warped them, and brought them closer". Claiming such is an unsubstantiated assumption. "Determining the future of the stars" isn't an inherently literal claim referring to every single star in the universe, at least not provably so in this case. It could simply be in reference to the cartoon stars created near the planet, it could be a metaphor, etc etc.

the stars are the same stars, just like the moon is the same moon, you can't just say they are other stars, if the moon is still the same moon.

 

[Alexander]

and once again, all the arguments are limited again to assuming that only the planet was affected, when it would not make sense to make it explicit that the stars, the moon, the physics and even the laws had been affected, and none of them would have affected him. they belong to the earth.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Please refrain from strawmanning and misrepresenting my argument. It doesn't take a genius to figure out I don't think Adolla is limited to just Earth if I acknowledge the Moon was affected.

It is self-evident from my contributions to this thread that I don't believe Adolla's range extends much further past the Moon. I can disagree with the universal stuff without thinking Adolla's range stops at the surface of the Earth.

 

[Alexander]

Please refrain from strawmanning and misrepresenting my argument. It doesn't take a genius to figure out I don't think Adolla is limited to just Earth if I acknowledge the Moon was affected.

It is self-evident from my contributions to this thread that I don't believe Adolla's range extends much further past the Moon. I can disagree with the universal stuff without thinking Adolla's range stops at the surface of the Earth.

but about the stars, again I repeat, because it would not be universal, if the stars were changed, and the stars are outside the range of the earth,and the stars exist everywhere in the universe.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree with CRT overall

 

[Dalesean027]

I think at the very least in terms of Shinrabanshoman whatever we rate this should scale to his physicals since he's literally coupled with having creation feats using his own power and literally like remakes earth and its laws

Also his range at least extends to the sun since we saw him rewrite that as well

 

[Alexander]

I think at the very least in terms of Shinrabanshoman whatever we rate this should scale to his physicals since he's literally coupled with having creation feats using his own power and literally like remakes earth and its laws

Also his range at least extends to the sun since we saw him rewrite that as well

he should scale to adolla, because literally the incarnated collective unconsciousness said that he is god.

 

[Dalesean027]

he should scale to adolla, because literally the incarnated collective unconsciousness said that he is god.

Yeah I agree I'm just saying this whole range argument with earth being a maximum range doesn't apply to shinra period

 

[Alexander]

Yeah I agree I'm just saying this whole range argument with earth being a maximum range doesn't apply to shinra period

ok

 

[Maitreya12]

Nothing in that scan you sent proves that world in that context means universe. In fact do you know what happened towards the end of the manga has the cataclysm was nearing completion, it devoured the planet (world) in black flames. You can't claim it's false and then send a scan that doesn't support your claim. World meaning universe here is nothing more than your headcanon at worst and a flimsy equal interpretation at best.

Prolly cause that whole section was meant as an introduction for my points to later prove.

Anyways world objectively means universe here and there is much proof to back that up. The fact that reality was once 3D and is now 2D objectively proves “world” means “universe” here because that reality warping extends past the “planet.”

No, the onus is on you to prove the entire universe was affected. We do not have to disprove that, you are asserting the positive claim, so no it isn't irrelevant. Please provide evidence of universal scales being affected.

Here we have direct statements saying the rules of the world have been warped.

World can only mean “universe” here in regards to this statement because reality was once 3D and then it became 2D

You were the one who said Standard assumption is that anime physics=IRL physics. So because we see reality was 3D and then became 2D, the standard assumption is that reality of the earth matches that of the universe because no matter the planet you’re on reality remains the same.

There we go. Just proved it with on panel feats and statements. How very easy

As of now your rebuttal is "they reality warped the moon". Luckily for me I never claimed they didn't reality warp the moon. So moot point.

But you claim the stars were created which is entirely baseless and you have yet to provide evidence for that claim.

Anyways your claim is directly inconsistent with what happens to the moon so there’s literally no basis for your claim either.

Why was the moon reality warped but the stars created?

Where’s your evidence the stars were created? You have yet to provide any.

Ergo your claim can be dismissed via Hitchen’s razor

He's simply talking about the cartoon stars in the sky. He never once says "Adolla took stars that were 100s of ly away, reality warped them, and brought them closer". Claiming such is an unsubstantiated assumption. "Determining the future of the stars" isn't an inherently literal claim referring to every single star in the universe, at least not provably so in this case. It could simply be in reference to the cartoon stars created near the planet, it could be a metaphor, etc etc.

Nope he says look at the stars and the moon. The physics of this world have been altered.

That is a direct reality warping statement. No creation was ever cited there. And we directly see the moon was reality warped so you’re actually just making stuff up by saying it was creation instead of reality warping.

“the physics of this world was altered” was made in direct reference to the stars and the moon. The statement is about reality warping. The moon was shown to be reality warped. You’re drawing an arbitrary distinction not presented in the series.

Even the claim of stars being created you have yet to prove by the way.

“Determining the future of the stars” is inherently a literal claim in this context because it’s directly cited the stars are being reality warped just like the moon is. Which we can even see in the background of Dragon’s own statement. The physics of the “world” have been altered. No creation was ever cited.

This arbitrary distinction you’re trying to draw between what happens with the stars vs what happens with the moon is not presented with any evidence as well as being completely unfounded and baseless in the series.

Few things wrong with this. One it isn't baseless considering we never actually saw any stars move. Two we don't know actually what happened with the smiley sun. It isn't explained if Shinra putting despair into the sun made it appear larger, actually larger, of if he simply created another object in the sky that perpetually blocks the sun. It's just never explained, but more importantly you cannot prove that the smiley sun is the irl sun brought closer to earth, that is what we would call a baseless assumption.

We never saw any stars created ergo your claim is entirely baseless. And two yes we do. Because you see everything that’s done is via reality warping. There’s absolutely no evidence of creation in the series. Everything is done via reality warping. It’s even outright stated that Shinra is changing the depiction of the “world.” No creation involved. So that my friend is what we define as an “baseless assumption.” Also “putting despair in the sun” what are you talking about Shinra eliminated despair in the form of Adolla.

Ever heard of Occam’s razor? That’s what we can apply here. Shinra demonstrates and is stated to be reality warping and what happens to the sun is entirely consistent with the stars and the moon. Ergo it’s reality warping

Formally count me for disagree thanks.

Already did chief.