The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Magicomethkuon]

I just tend to think you shouldn't accidentally end up in the "singular undifferentiated transcendent ground floor of existence" itself when you're dreaming and actually meet the personification of the Monad, who is then surprised to see you and says you shouldn't be there.

I also think that if the ground floor of existence itself is "given metaphysical being by the collective consensus of humanity" then it probably isn't an authentic monad per our standards.

But hey. Idk anything about Fate, apparently.

Nevermind the first half, but with the other information had about Akasha it seems more likely that this metaphysical being is a lower layer to it rather than something that it depends on to exist. People can give a shape to something without touching the essence of it, like a shell of the real deal. Besides, if it depended on mankind's consensus to exist, there'd be a paradox even in this scan because it already existed before mankind was there.

 

[Agnaa]

The Root isn't sustained by humanity. It exists separately from the rest of existence. Deagonx most likely misinterpreted the scan.

Maybe there's other scans that say otherwise, and make another interpretation more consistent, but this scan at least clearly says you tap into the root by tapping into the Akashic Record which is given being by the collective consensus of humanity.

(More, in this case, it would be that the Akashic Record giving one access to the root, despite being something lower, would contradict the root being tier 0; something tier 0 should be unreachable through lower mechanisms)

 

[Deagonx]

Usually "the Akashic Records" is considered an alternative name for the Root.

 

[Deagonx]

Besides, if it depended on mankind's consensus to exist, there'd be a paradox even in this scan because it already existed before mankind was there.

In some verses, collective belief can alter the world atemporally.

 

[Tdjwo]

Ritsuka is dreaming, and meets Void in the root.

He doesn't "meet" her there. He can't access it. That's why Void said he can't be there because the mere fact that he has a name makes him unqualified to be there. At best he's in a state where he knows he's communicating with something he doesn't even understand. That's why he was confused when he woke up in Chaldea.

It says it is "given metaphysical being by the collective consensus of all humanity." What other interpretation is available.

All its saying is thay the Akashic Records which records everything, is considered a metaphysical being by all of humanity. I dont exactly see anything that invalidates it.

 

[Agnaa]

He doesn't "meet" her there. He can't access it. That's why Void said he can't be there because the mere fact that he has a name makes him unqualified to be there. At best he's in a state where he knows he's communicating with something he doesn't even understand. That's why he was confused when he woke up in Chaldea.

All its saying is thay the Akashic Records which records everything, is considered a metaphysical being by all of humanity. I dont exactly see anything that invalidates it.

Anything being able to give you Tier 0 power, or access to a Tier 0 construct, other than:

• A tier 0 granting a wish on your behalf, through their own power.
• A character realising that they were tier 0 all along.

Is considered a contradiction against that thing actually being tier 0.

 

[Deagonx]

He doesn't "meet" her there. He can't access it. That's why Void said he can't be there because the mere fact that he has a name makes him unqualified to be there.

She said he "shouldnt" be there, and asked if there had been a mistake. So, yes, he was there.

considered a metaphysical being by all of humanity.

It didn't say "considered." It was given metaphysical being by humanity's consensus. It should be independently existent.

 

[Tdjwo]

Anything being able to give you Tier 0 power, or access to a Tier 0 construct, other than:

• A tier 0 granting a wish on your behalf, through their own power.
• A character realising that they were tier 0 all along.

Is considered a contradiction against it being tier 0.

Fortunately, the root follows the logic too.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

In some verses, collective belief can alter the world atemporally.

I'm aware of that. It's more so that by the way the character speaks about it, it sounds to me more that they created a shape to the essence that is unreachable like a shell, rather than the essence itself having been shaped. At least when you look at this scan together with all the other evidences and information that we have about Akasha. I was more putting emphasis that, looking at this scan on its own could blur the bigger picture.

I got nothing on the first half though, if that was really a limitation of the root talking, as you say.

 

[Agnaa]

Fortunately, the root follows the logic too.

Not according to those scans it doesn't, by either lower entities being able to access the root through a lower structure (if the Akashic Record is separate), or by the root being reliant on humanity's collective unconscious (if the Akashic Record is the root), and by other beings being able to access it, who shouldn't be there.

Such a realm, to qualify for tier 0, should be static, and impervious to intrusions like that.

 

[Tdjwo]

She said he "shouldnt" be there, and asked if there had been a mistake. So, yes, he was there.

He wasn't there. He was in a dream state where it felt like he was communicating with something which was the void. How many times has it been sung to us that anyone who even tries approaching the root gets erased instantly? His dream state most likely tried to unconsciously reach it but got stopped by Void.

It didn't say "considered." It was given metaphysical being by humanity's consensus. It should be independently existent.

Are you saying puny humans were able to give the root the title of metaphysical being? You do know Void explicitly said that she could erase the entire Nasuverse and nothing would happen to the root. That is because the root exists independently of everything. Even Binary oppositions.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Not according to those scans it doesn't, by either lower entities being able to access the root through a lower structure (if the Akashic Record is separate), or by the root being reliant on humanity's collective unconscious (if the Akashic Record is the root), and by other beings being able to access it, who shouldn't be there.

Such a realm, to qualify for tier 0, should be static, and impervious to intrusions like that.

The scans do say that they failed every time, though. I'd like to know if someone has succeeded, because otherwise it would simply be the character assuming that something impossible can be done.

 

[Agnaa]

If those scans don't correspond to real truths in the series, then fair enough.

 

[Tdjwo]

Not according to those scans it doesn't, by either lower entities being able to access the root through a lower structure (if the Akashic Record is separate), or by the root being reliant on humanity's collective unconscious (if the Akashic Record is the root), and by other beings being able to access it, who shouldn't be there.

Again, this is simply a misunderstanding. Ritsuka never accessed the root. He was in a dream state where he unsubconsciously tried to but Void warned him not to because he could get erased. And the root doesn't rely onm anything at all to exist. It exists independently from the rest of the cosmology. It's been there before the concept of time was even formed. Why would it be reliant on entities that exists because of it in the first place

Such a realm, to qualify for tier 0, should be static, and impervious to intrusions like that.

And that's exactly what it is. @BestMGQScalerEver already dropped several scans previously

Root seems pretty tier 0 for what it is but idk

Spoiler

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I mean someone proposed tier -0 on the thread but that is just as far as naming ig

What the hell does -0 even mean? 0 isn't a positive number or a negative number.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

What the hell does -0 even mean? 0 isn't a positive number or a negative number.

Hell if I know lol

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Ultima's Tier 0 revisions seem to be equally concerned with what a Tier 0 being cannot do as it is with what they can do - or more like - what they are. I've also heard that under verse equalization these Tier 0 entities would be considered the same entity, so then... how is this going to impact profile structuring? Are all Tier 0 beings supposed to just have the exact same copy/paste of abilities, no more and no less? What would even be the point of having distinct profiles of what would by the site's own rules be "the same character"?

 

[Agnaa]

Ultima's Tier 0 revisions seem to be equally concerned with what a Tier 0 being cannot do as it is with what they can do - or more like - what they are. I've also heard that under verse equalization these Tier 0 entities would be considered the same entity, so then... how is this going to impact profile structuring? Are all Tier 0 beings supposed to just have the exact same copy/paste of abilities, no more and no less? What would even be the point of having distinct profiles of what would by the site's own rules be "the same character"?

Different keys would have content, justifications would be different, and summaries/pictures would be different.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not at all persuaded by the attempts to rewrite these scenarios. Void never "warns" Ritsuka. She says he shouldnt be there, which means he is there. The fact that she asked if there was some kind of mistake is an expression of confusion.

This will all get hashed out in a CRT eventually, but I would recommend not getting your hopes up too high. There are many more scans like that which jeopardize that conception of the Root.

 

[Agnaa]

If you can prove or at least imply that it was a dream and not an actual access of the root, and that people's conception of accessing the root is flawed, while the other statements of the root aren't, that's one thing.

Otherwise, it would mostly come down to a matter of which side has more evidence backing it. Even then, I think there might already be a bias towards disqualifying it, given the way the system seems to be shaping out.

 

[Tdjwo]

I'm not at all persuaded by the attempts to rewrite these scenarios. Void never "warns" Ritsuka. She says he shouldnt be there, which means he is there. The fact that she asked if there was some kind of mistake is an expression of confusion.

Void saying "he shouldn't be there" means exactly what she means. He is subconsciously attempting to reach the root in his dreams. Void sees this and tells him not to attempt that. We know exactly what would happen to Ritsuka if he reached there. He would get erased, hence the warning from Void. It might not seem obvious that it's a warning, but that just how Void chooses to speak. I mean, Void already said he can't be there because he has a name so why would Ritsuka be able to access something that he doesn't qualify for?

This will all get hashed out in a CRT eventually, but I would recommend not getting your hopes up too high. There are many more scans like that which jeopardize that conception of the Root.

I'm pretty confident on the Root getting Tier 0 if we are truly not going to be on any biased sides. It's basically a carbon copy of Ultima's tier 0. So much that it's even directly referenced as "The One" from Eleaticism which is just monadism.

 

[Deagonx]

Even then, I think there might already be a bias towards disqualifying it, given the way the system seems to be shaping out

I share a similar thought, given how discussions about some other characters have gone. There seems to be a trend towards monad-like statements being given absolute unbending primacy over other evidence, aside from all but the most extreme disqualifiers.

 

[Tdjwo]

If you can prove or at least imply that it was a dream and not an actual access of the root, and that people's conception of accessing the root is flawed, while the other statements of the root aren't, that's one thing.

It being a dream is not even what I and Deagon are arguing about. We both know that Ritsuka was dreaming. I already sent you screenshots earlier where we see that people's idea on how to access the root is extremely flawed and only turns out to be impossible to achieve.

 

[Deagonx]

Void saying "he shouldn't be there" means exactly what she means. He is subconsciously attempting to reach the root in his dreams. Void sees this and tells him not to attempt that. We know exactly what would happen to Ritsuka if he reached there. He would get erased, hence the warning from Void. It might not seem obvious that it's a warning, but that just how Void chooses to speak. I mean, Void already said he can't be there because he has a name so why would Ritsuka be able to access something that he doesn't qualify for?

That's not grammatically correct. First, you're attempting to switch words out. The void never said he "can't" be there but that he "shouldn't." Telling someone you "shouldn't be here" means that they are there. Further, the other statements made by Void throughout disprove such a notion entirely:

Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?

Furthermore, the Monad must be omniscient. The fact that Void expressed confusion about Ritsuka's presence there is also a disqualifier.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

This thread has become a Fate CRT.

 

[Tdjwo]

That's not grammatically correct. First, you're attempting to switch words out. The void never said he "can't" be there but that he "shouldn't." Telling someone you "shouldn't be here" means that they are there. Further, the other statements made by Void throughout disprove such a notion entirely:

The context here matters. Saying "He shouldn't" be here can also mean "he can't be here." For example, I can say that the Earth shouldn't rotate anti clockwise. And if I switched it for "can't," it would still mean the same.

Furthermore, the Monad must be omniscient. The fact that Void expressed confusion about Ritsuka's presence there is also a disqualifier.

This is a minor nitpicking considering we have plethora of evidence suggesting Void is in fact omniscient. I boil this down to just plot progression. Also considering Saber Shiki which Ritsuka actually ,et in his dream isn't Void Shiki per se, this barely has any effect on Root/Void Shiki.

 

[Agnaa]

The context here matters. Saying "He shouldn't" be here can also mean "he can't be here." For example, I can say that the Earth shouldn't rotate anti clockwise. And if I switched it for "can't," it would still mean the same.

That's wrong, "shouldn't" implies "that was meant to be something that couldn't happen, but something is contradicting that". If a character is looking at Earth from space and says "That shouldn't be rotating anti-clockwise...." that means that the Earth is rotating anti-clockwise, a thing which they thought was impossible.

But really, we shouldn't be arguing about the difference in English, since it was written in Japanese.

 

[Deagonx]

Saying "He shouldn't" be here can also mean "he can't be here."

This is the last reply I'll make on the subject. Those two things are not equivalent, and they cannot be substituted for each other. They sound close enough that if someone wasn't paying close enough attention they could be tricked into thinking so, but a trick is all it is.

You are rewriting the words of the story because the actual words written contradict you. That's all that really needs to be said on the subject.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

From my point of view the Jedi are evil.

I will make that true for you

 

[Robo432343]

guys guys guys
will this be 1-A?

• The Soul Flux gives birth to all that exists and doesn't exist, including ideas that define existence. The author uses the example of a book to explain this. A book is a physical collection of paper pages filled with ink that forms words. However, for us to say that something exists called a book, it means that there has to be a concept of “book” that defines what it is. Therefore, the book that we hold in our hands is the sum of many facets – physical and conceptual – which collectively make up a “book.” Its corporal part is the substance generated by the material world, while its essence exists on a different level, in the Sea of Souls.
• The Soul Flux is infinite and (again) gives birth to stuff that has yet to exist, including souls/concepts, theories, feelings, etc.
• It is literally referred to as a world of ideas.
• Etheldrea once accessed this place to extract conceptual materials from her perfect conceptual self that exists in the Flux, implying that the Etheldrea on the material plane is only an imperfection compared to the one in the Sea of Souls, since it's not something that she could obtain in the material world either.
• WoG referred to it as a superior/higher plane of existence.
• Magic is a force intertwined with the Soul Flux, beyond any belief or philosophy, and encompasses all elements of creation, including emotions and concepts.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I've also heard that under verse equalization these Tier 0 entities would be considered the same entity, so then... how is this going to impact profile structuring? Are all Tier 0 beings supposed to just have the exact same copy/paste of abilities, no more and no less?

"Powers and Abilities: Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience (Optional). Specific applications of it that have been showcased are: [X, Y, Z]."

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Spare me the accusations.

Heaven forbid someone jokes

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

What happened's with Aslan btw? Does he keep his outer tier? Get even higher

 

[Agnaa]

Heaven forbid someone jokes

They're not jokes if you actually believe it, just because you add an emoji at the end

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Agnaa joking feels unsettling.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

They're not jokes if you actually believe it, just because you add an emoji at the end

Are you joking, I can't tell if you're joking. I'm scared, does Agnaa joke?

 

[Agnaa]

Are you joking, I can't tell if you're joking. I'm scared, does Agnaa joke?

I actually believe what I'm saying

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I actually believe what I'm saying

I'm scared

 

[Agnaa]

I'm scared

Be not afraid

 

[Reiner04]

I'm scared

As u should.