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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

deonment said:
The Heart sadly isn't eternal and came into being so it isn't 0.
Otherwise, it would be.
Due to such Digimon is gonna continue to be in a higher tier than Pokemon, and actually be able to do matches with SMT again (because those two verses are basically just one and the same).
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This has never been stated. Are you mixing it up with the avatar coming from chaos and the egg? We have received nothing at all the the Heart having been created or not being eternal?

Edit: Oh I see where you got this from. I don't think it's as big as you think. It doesn't read as if it talks about it's literal birth, and more the birth of it's awareness (creation) of the world. Whether this is a big deal breaker remains to be seen when it is evaluated with the rest of the evidence.

Well, I think that the beginning of the world is the moment when people's heart (心) sprout (芽生えた).

Yes! The heart was born and it began to perceive (認識) the world!
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Last edited:
deonment said:
The Heart sadly isn't eternal and came into being so it isn't 0.
Otherwise, it would be.
Due to such Digimon is gonna continue to be in a higher tier than Pokemon, and actually be able to do matches with SMT again (because those two verses are basically just one and the same).
Click to expand...
Wait, Digimon is going to be 1-A?
 
Everything12 said:
This has never been stated. Are you mixing it up with the avatar coming from chaos and the egg? We have received nothing at all the the Heart having been created or not being eternal?

Edit: Oh I see where you got this from. I don't think it's as big as you think. It doesn't read as if it talks about it's literal birth, and more the birth of it's awareness (creation) of the world. Whether this is a big deal breaker remains to be seen when it is evaluated with the rest of the evidence.
Click to expand...
I personally think the heart should be 0 but ultima disagrees
Everything12 said:
They do have some platonic stuff going on, but they also have higher dimensional stuff, such as the Eaters, that might disqualify them. So who knows at this point.
Click to expand...
Eaters being higher dimensional is just digimon being a mess of a verse to deal with because it loves to contradict itself so ******* much but also having about a billion different ways to explain stuff, tldr;
It should, we have statements of stuff on the level of even the physical digital world being 1-A (including statements of entirely transcending dimensions, and not being flowery language or referring to alternate dimensions) along with the platonism stuff, along with the fact that the kernel is fundamentally different from the lower worlds, the most likely option is that higher dimensional is being used as an analogue (given how not only does the same person we get the statements from drop the higher dimensional for ultra/hyper dimensional and states they are beyond time, and just a bunch of stuff to do with the nature of data and human cognition defining reality and placing things within the "trappings" of dimensions)
 
Agnaa said:
Yeah, it just comes from sources other than "created a world without space or time".
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My point was moreso that one of God's worlds was one without space or time, with the inhabitants of said world being described as "contemplating their own perfection", and how space and time were described as "limiting".
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
What is the divine creator? I've only ever heard of the One Above All, but suddenly in the past few weeks I hear people talking about the DC.
Click to expand...
Divine Creator is God hirself. That entity forged the Staff of Creation and the Book naturally came to tell us it created duality and indirectly formed the Nexus. Clieto is a female aspect of God, the mother of the Dreamer.
 
Everything12 said:
This has never been stated. Are you mixing it up with the avatar coming from chaos and the egg? We have received nothing at all the the Heart having been created or not being eternal?

Edit: Oh I see where you got this from. I don't think it's as big as you think. It doesn't read as if it talks about it's literal birth, and more the birth of it's awareness (creation) of the world. Whether this is a big deal breaker remains to be seen when it is evaluated with the rest of the evidence.
Click to expand...
Even its awareness beginning is a change.

The only way for that not to be a contradiction would be for it to entirely be read as a metaphor.
Undylan said:
Are the tier 0 revisions being accepted or are they gonna be stalled as usual?
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jfc dude, the thread hasn't even been up for 2 weeks, it's still got active discussion, why make a post like this?
 
Agnaa said:
Even its awareness beginning is a change.

The only way for that not to be a contradiction would be for it to entirely be read as a metaphor.

jfc dude, the thread hasn't even been up for 2 weeks, it's still got active discussion, why make a post like this?
Click to expand...
I don't mean to bring offense. Just curious.
 
Considering how Tier 0 hinges on it, Logical Omnipotence is in my opinion probably one of the most coherent and logical ways to go about quantifying the concept of 'Omipotence' within Fiction. I'm not saying it's the best way out of principle as I don't know everyone's depiction of Omnipotence, but I think one of the best is a good estimation.

However, it's funny that my personal definition of Omnipotence within Fiction (Or Fictional Omnipotence) would probably get me some looks from people, but I personally think it works with the concept of how limitless Fiction is by pure principle. but the only way any Fictional Work gets this version of Omnipotence is probably if they just flat-out state it, since I don't think you could realistically 'prove' it within a Fictional Work (outside of a 4th wall breaker like Deadpool or something).
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
However, it's funny that my personal definition of Omnipotence within Fiction (Or Fictional Omnipotence) would probably get me some looks from people, but I personally think it works with the concept of how limitless Fiction is by pure principle. but the only way any Fictional Work gets this version of Omnipotence is probably if they just flat-out state it, since I don't think you could realistically 'prove' it within a Fictional Work (outside of a 4th wall breaker like Deadpool or something).
Click to expand...
👀. Everything must require context not flat out statements.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
👀. Everything must require context not flat out statements.
Click to expand...
I mean I guess that's a fair assessment. I'll let you be the judge of that and see what happens. Well, Fictional Omnipotence, at least to me, is essentially this:

"If it can be done within Fiction, then an Omnipotent can do it without effort, as an Omnipotent being can truly do absolutely anything that can be done within Fiction". In essence, An Omnipotent being's only limitation as to what they can do, is what cannot be done within Fiction under any circumstance. For instance, affecting Us would be probably the only real example of what can't be done within Fiction
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I mean I guess that's a fair assessment. I'll let you be the judge of that and see what happens. Well, Fictional Omnipotence, at least to me, is essentially this:

"If it can be done within Fiction, then an Omnipotent can do it without effort, as an Omnipotent being can truly do absolutely anything that can be done within Fiction". In essence, An Omnipotent being's only limitation as to what they can do, is what cannot be done within Fiction under any circumstance. For instance, affecting Us would be probably the only real example of what can't be done within Fiction
Click to expand...
You said the only way to get it is if it's a flat-out statement. Not that I see that assessment of logical Omnipotence within fiction is wrong.
 
Everything12 said:
They do have some platonic stuff going on, but they also have higher dimensional stuff, such as the Eaters, that might disqualify them. So who knows at this point.
Click to expand...
Aren't the Digimon pages very lacking? Like I've seen a bunch of stuff through vs debates. One thing I heard about was the Digimon God, which from reading the wiki article about it makes it sound just like the Christian God, it might just be an axed concept or just not used in debates.
 
I was wondering if Tier 0 characters or those who possess oneness, will get every abilities or haxes in their verse or not.
 
Deagonx said:
I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. It's largely moot since Tier 0 characters cannot participate in matchups.
Click to expand...
SBA won't play roles tho? State of mind of character is filled with intent to win for a sole purpose that they participate in fight. Even if it's out of their character.
 
Deagonx said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking me.
Click to expand...
State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.
Click to expand...
 
Right, but what I'm asking is: what is the point you're making about Tier 0s? I am lacking the context for what you're proposing.
 
Da3ggman said:
It's more so that literally every Tier 0 will both be completely above and unbeatable to any other tier, and every other Tier 0 will be equal. So, there really isn't a debate to be had involving them.
Click to expand...
Uh I completely forgor they just are simply invincible and only taking into account that they're beyond attributes.
 
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