- 5,343
- 6,087
ask Ultima (lol)
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
- Start date
-
- Tags
- tiering system
- Status
- 3,035
- 2,239
Refers more to nature that connects with a Monad rather than a quantity of monads.
- 8,374
- 1,749
… Okay ? I was making an inquiry that I didn’t understand 100% about how Seeker was 0 . I didn’t make that with the intention of trying to be a fricking bother or anything
- 3,035
- 2,239
Because God has R>F over Maya who is all Creation.
- 9,982
- 10,821
Considering in most of “The source/beginning/oneness” there always involves division of or part manifest themselves as physical reality and the other as something like metaphysical self (souls) using the former as modes (like body) or that souls are merely a part of wholeness which have to shed the attributes and become one with the source, but at the end of day everything is one. Would it disqualify The oneness from being Tier 0 considering it has parts.
- 13,826
- 3,804
Jehovah will be High 1-A or 1-A, since I AM THAT I AM is stronger and the actual Tier 0 of the verse (It doesnt have a profile yet though).
- 3,035
- 2,239
In reference to stories using Oneness. We can think of it like what an author once said: “Though the characters we create are of our imagination because they came from our thoughts they’re very much us as both the dream and the dreamer.”
In stories like Seekers. There’s actually no difference between a Soul or the Oversoul as would droplets to the Ocean. This is why a Soul journey is to realize they are Oneness. When they realize that they were the Oneness itself and all individual mask that hid them from that truth is dissolved because there’s only one unifying truth: God, and everything else was an illusion you, yourself, dreamed of to get it.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
No, they're simply 1-A.
The first thread (covering Low 1-A to High 1-A) was passed, the second one is still being discussed.
Yes, that's not the case with platonic forms.
Unsong probably won't. The God which is stated to hold all attributes, be above all hierarchies, etc. isn't the most simple thing, Atzmus is. Plus a bunch of other issues that should prevent 0, and may even prevent 1-A.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
I thought Atzmus was also Unsong.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
Yeah, but it's not presented as a unification of all attributes, which I think should disqualify it from being considered a monad.
Its only real qualification is "more simple than a properly-described monad".
- 3,035
- 2,239
Isn’t God an overarching title? That all emanation and aspects are part of it including Atzmus as essence of God and Ein Sof as concealed God before any emanation?
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
Not in Unsong.
In Unsong, where God is 1, and nothing is 0, Atzmus is no information.
And Ein Sof is unity with God that can be accessed by any being leaving the conventional space of their universe, such as through a spaceship.
- 3,035
- 2,239
Yet Atzmus is also of the Divine. God in reference to that is referring to as if he is consider to be existence while nothingness to oppose that. Not to mentions Ein Sof attribute is infinite that’s what’s being described as Atzmus is also another aspect of God that neither has information of 1(wholeness or unity) or 0(nothingness or absence of God).
That doesn’t really say much. The short interlude doesn’t really explain that Atzmus is separate of divine as is Ein Sof to another part of it since Ein Sof denotes all levels in the lower worlds. Unsong didn’t pull the concept Atzmus out of nowhere and the source of it still describes Ein Sof and Atzmus as attribute to God while Ein Sof can be called God while Atzmus can’t be spoken of. Which Kabbalah also mentions how God cannot be described by any words because it limits it.
Last edited:
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
Yes it does. Everything else is created through combining God (1) and nothingness (0), while Atzmus is the absence of information entirely. How could you say that doesn't indicate that God and Atzmus are distinct?
We don't care about the source, we care about how it's described in-verse, where it's described as something distinct and to not be talked about.
Unsong doesn't attribute Atzmus to God. Unsong doesn't say that God can't be described by any words, it in fact describes God and names it based on the principle of maximising the Good in existence.
- 3,035
- 2,239
Ein Sof emanated the worlds? That’s why the profile listed the two keys as part of the God(Divine).
Unsong didn’t make the concept. So obviously it’s inspired by the source which does not highlight Aztmus being distinct from God. Ein Sof being God is the reference point which is slightly changed from the original source. So obviously that trait of Divine is reflecting off of what Ein Sof is and Atzmus is the trait that has no information to distinguish it being an entity at all.
God can be attributed at any level. That’s why one of them is “Ein Sof.” God in reference is being described while Atzmus isn’t because it’s can’t be tied to a trait as essence or the most simplistic thing which ties into every view of God being being ineffable and not to be described. Unsong does not notion away from it rather described a trait of God being everything.
Agnaa, let’s just agree to disagree.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
I don't remember that ever being said in Unsong.
I know, but we do not care about the source, we care about Unsong's use of it.
That's not how Unsong presents it.
There's a good chance you're right about the real-world use of those concepts, but you're demonstrably wrong about how Unsong uses it, and you won't be able to find support for such a specific view in it.
- 7,889
- 14,936
Yog-Sothoth and the Root, likewise, should not end up being considered monads. Yog-Sothoth is explicitly a member of a group of archetypes. He references this twice, and Lovecraft's private letters indicate that he considers Azathoth to be above Yog.
The root doesn't appear to have much of any evidence supporting Monism.
The root doesn't appear to have much of any evidence supporting Monism.
- 3,035
- 2,239
One last point on you saying Unsong doesn’t use the concept. However, you’re missing key elements that were hinted during the Interlude:
^The interluding is explaining that God can be called Ein Sof which is him before any or prior manifestation. Where even nothingness is contained by it.
In order to make the world. God had to put himself a face or separate from neither that he was. This is why Atzmus is also an attribute of the Divine. As Zoe questions if God is 1 and Nothingness is 0 where does neither come from. The whole tone shifts from the one point when you regard what was said later:
^Regarding when Ein Sof being defined as everything in Creation. How could God(Ein Sof) emanates such imperfection. The fact Unsong didn’t make the concept but follows it from the Source explains how everything including Ein Sof and Atzmus are part of God, of the Divine.
Since I said that was my last point. Agnaa feel free to interject but the conversation on this topic in this thread is closed for me.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,554
Ngl the recent changes makes me think the best stuff happen when energy can still be calculated. It's much more fun at those tiers.
- 3,035
- 2,239
I agree with the Roots not being 0. I’m neutral on Yog but I do see your point on that regard. What about God from Seekers?
- 7,889
- 14,936
I don't really know the first thing about Seekers.
- 3,035
- 2,239
No problem. This short thread does cover who he/she/it is:
Splitting “God” from Seekers Into The Mystery.
So I thought of something that should apply to “God” from Seekers into the Mystery into two separate keys that are, of course, linked to each other. God as we know in the Seeker story is the Oneness beyond Creation that underlines every part of its own Creation including Maya who expresses that...
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
I don't care much about Ein Sof, but that interlude isn't about that. There is literally no mention of Ein Sof in that chapter. It does not say that "God before manifestation was Ein Sof". From other invocations of Ein Sof, we can see that Ein Sof is part of specific Adam Kadmon seeds, of which there are a huge amount across the worlds that were created.
The answer to that is provided later, with God creating worlds to maximize the sum total good in the cosmos. Since one perfect being (himself) is less good than multiple worlds featuring beings that are less than perfect, but still ultimately more good than bad.
- 13
- 4
(Lovecraft letters is a joke)
It's how story depicted them, not with your own headcanon and nitpicking about specific texts, so nuh uh
Same goes for the Root
- 7,889
- 14,936
Debatable, but even so Azathoth's portrayal at the top of the hierarchy is consistent with his description in the works as the king of the ultimate void.
Headcanon would be pretending the story didn't say there were multiple archetypes, didn't say there were multiple nameless entities, and didn't provide a pluralistic framework for the beings in the void.
Very compelling.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
Maybe. Here we get into the realm of there being many things supporting and opposing such a rating.
Some contradictions of 1-A include:
- Higher parts of the world that are considered "more real" still operating under the same mathematics that Uriel converted the world into, and being able to be manipulated by relatively ordinary humans that are simply experienced kabbalists (or at least, they aren't intrinsically more real themselves).
- God being described as equivalent to absolute infinity.
- Uriel saying that mathematical equations and correspondences hold more of God than songs and words and shields.
- Neil Armstrong being able to become one with God by physically traveling, using a spaceship, to the edge of the universe, and crossing over past that shell.
- All the events of the world being written on a seed which experienced kabbalists like Uriel can gaze upon.
Also, I should mention, "creating a world without space or time" isn't 1-A. The things supporting 1-A within Unsong are quite different.
- 918
- 336
I'm pretty sure it was implied to be ontologically superior.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,568
- 13,853
Yeah, it just comes from sources other than "created a world without space or time".
- 5,343
- 6,087
What contradictions are there for the root?
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
The Root qualifies for everything Ultima requires for a monad
- 5,343
- 6,087
Root seems pretty tier 0 for what it is but idk
Magicomethkuon
They/Them- 1,308
- 1,424
I'll be surprised if the Root isn't. Seems to fit the bill so much at a glance that its actual name even is a blank space.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,241
- 4,064
Aren’t there multiple instances of things below the root reaching the root?
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
No? Everything that tried got erased into nothingness without a trace.
- 7,889
- 14,936
Yes, the whole goal of the grail wars is to use the 7 servants energy to reach the root. And you can even use it as a power source in general.
Spare me the accusations.Deagonx doing everything in his power to make sure Root never reaches Tier 0 even if its justifications are extremely clear.
KingNanaya
He/Him- 3,075
- 4,240
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,175
- 1,298
And tell me how that went heh
You have infinte more probability to morph into a sweet potato than for even the greatest mage to see the Root.Cmon. We all know.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,241
- 4,064
could have sworn the whole point of the grail wars were to use the roots power. Even if I’m wrong, isn’t Void Shiki’s existence in and of itself a contradiction to the root being tier 0?
- Status
