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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Tdjwo said:
He doesn't "meet" her there. He can't access it. That's why Void said he can't be there because the mere fact that he has a name makes him unqualified to be there.
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She said he "shouldnt" be there, and asked if there had been a mistake. So, yes, he was there.

Tdjwo said:
considered a metaphysical being by all of humanity.
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It didn't say "considered." It was given metaphysical being by humanity's consensus. It should be independently existent.
 
Agnaa said:
Anything being able to give you Tier 0 power, or access to a Tier 0 construct, other than:
  • A tier 0 granting a wish on your behalf, through their own power.
  • A character realising that they were tier 0 all along.
Is considered a contradiction against it being tier 0.
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Fortunately, the root follows the logic too.
 
Deagonx said:
In some verses, collective belief can alter the world atemporally.
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I'm aware of that. It's more so that by the way the character speaks about it, it sounds to me more that they created a shape to the essence that is unreachable like a shell, rather than the essence itself having been shaped. At least when you look at this scan together with all the other evidences and information that we have about Akasha. I was more putting emphasis that, looking at this scan on its own could blur the bigger picture.

I got nothing on the first half though, if that was really a limitation of the root talking, as you say.
 
Tdjwo said:
Fortunately, the root follows the logic too.
Click to expand...
Not according to those scans it doesn't, by either lower entities being able to access the root through a lower structure (if the Akashic Record is separate), or by the root being reliant on humanity's collective unconscious (if the Akashic Record is the root), and by other beings being able to access it, who shouldn't be there.

Such a realm, to qualify for tier 0, should be static, and impervious to intrusions like that.
 
Deagonx said:
She said he "shouldnt" be there, and asked if there had been a mistake. So, yes, he was there.
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He wasn't there. He was in a dream state where it felt like he was communicating with something which was the void. How many times has it been sung to us that anyone who even tries approaching the root gets erased instantly? His dream state most likely tried to unconsciously reach it but got stopped by Void.
Deagonx said:
It didn't say "considered." It was given metaphysical being by humanity's consensus. It should be independently existent.
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Are you saying puny humans were able to give the root the title of metaphysical being? You do know Void explicitly said that she could erase the entire Nasuverse and nothing would happen to the root. That is because the root exists independently of everything. Even Binary oppositions.
 
Agnaa said:
Not according to those scans it doesn't, by either lower entities being able to access the root through a lower structure (if the Akashic Record is separate), or by the root being reliant on humanity's collective unconscious (if the Akashic Record is the root), and by other beings being able to access it, who shouldn't be there.

Such a realm, to qualify for tier 0, should be static, and impervious to intrusions like that.
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The scans do say that they failed every time, though. I'd like to know if someone has succeeded, because otherwise it would simply be the character assuming that something impossible can be done.
 
If those scans don't correspond to real truths in the series, then fair enough.
 
Agnaa said:
Not according to those scans it doesn't, by either lower entities being able to access the root through a lower structure (if the Akashic Record is separate), or by the root being reliant on humanity's collective unconscious (if the Akashic Record is the root), and by other beings being able to access it, who shouldn't be there.
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Again, this is simply a misunderstanding. Ritsuka never accessed the root. He was in a dream state where he unsubconsciously tried to but Void warned him not to because he could get erased. And the root doesn't rely onm anything at all to exist. It exists independently from the rest of the cosmology. It's been there before the concept of time was even formed. Why would it be reliant on entities that exists because of it in the first place
Agnaa said:
Such a realm, to qualify for tier 0, should be static, and impervious to intrusions like that.
Click to expand...
And that's exactly what it is. @BestMGQScalerEver already dropped several scans previously
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Root seems pretty tier 0 for what it is but idk
IMG_20230512_045640.png

Screenshot_20220201_170738_1-2.png

Click to expand...
 
Ultima's Tier 0 revisions seem to be equally concerned with what a Tier 0 being cannot do as it is with what they can do - or more like - what they are. I've also heard that under verse equalization these Tier 0 entities would be considered the same entity, so then... how is this going to impact profile structuring? Are all Tier 0 beings supposed to just have the exact same copy/paste of abilities, no more and no less? What would even be the point of having distinct profiles of what would by the site's own rules be "the same character"?
 
Ben_CleverName said:
Ultima's Tier 0 revisions seem to be equally concerned with what a Tier 0 being cannot do as it is with what they can do - or more like - what they are. I've also heard that under verse equalization these Tier 0 entities would be considered the same entity, so then... how is this going to impact profile structuring? Are all Tier 0 beings supposed to just have the exact same copy/paste of abilities, no more and no less? What would even be the point of having distinct profiles of what would by the site's own rules be "the same character"?
Click to expand...
Different keys would have content, justifications would be different, and summaries/pictures would be different.
 
I'm not at all persuaded by the attempts to rewrite these scenarios. Void never "warns" Ritsuka. She says he shouldnt be there, which means he is there. The fact that she asked if there was some kind of mistake is an expression of confusion.

This will all get hashed out in a CRT eventually, but I would recommend not getting your hopes up too high. There are many more scans like that which jeopardize that conception of the Root.
 
If you can prove or at least imply that it was a dream and not an actual access of the root, and that people's conception of accessing the root is flawed, while the other statements of the root aren't, that's one thing.

Otherwise, it would mostly come down to a matter of which side has more evidence backing it. Even then, I think there might already be a bias towards disqualifying it, given the way the system seems to be shaping out.
 
Deagonx said:
I'm not at all persuaded by the attempts to rewrite these scenarios. Void never "warns" Ritsuka. She says he shouldnt be there, which means he is there. The fact that she asked if there was some kind of mistake is an expression of confusion.
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Void saying "he shouldn't be there" means exactly what she means. He is subconsciously attempting to reach the root in his dreams. Void sees this and tells him not to attempt that. We know exactly what would happen to Ritsuka if he reached there. He would get erased, hence the warning from Void. It might not seem obvious that it's a warning, but that just how Void chooses to speak. I mean, Void already said he can't be there because he has a name so why would Ritsuka be able to access something that he doesn't qualify for?
Deagonx said:
This will all get hashed out in a CRT eventually, but I would recommend not getting your hopes up too high. There are many more scans like that which jeopardize that conception of the Root.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty confident on the Root getting Tier 0 if we are truly not going to be on any biased sides. It's basically a carbon copy of Ultima's tier 0. So much that it's even directly referenced as "The One" from Eleaticism which is just monadism.

main-qimg-7265cfb020c50a546a0126fd7dc27a9e
 
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Agnaa said:
Even then, I think there might already be a bias towards disqualifying it, given the way the system seems to be shaping out
Click to expand...
I share a similar thought, given how discussions about some other characters have gone. There seems to be a trend towards monad-like statements being given absolute unbending primacy over other evidence, aside from all but the most extreme disqualifiers.
 
Agnaa said:
If you can prove or at least imply that it was a dream and not an actual access of the root, and that people's conception of accessing the root is flawed, while the other statements of the root aren't, that's one thing.
Click to expand...
It being a dream is not even what I and Deagon are arguing about. We both know that Ritsuka was dreaming. I already sent you screenshots earlier where we see that people's idea on how to access the root is extremely flawed and only turns out to be impossible to achieve.
 
Tdjwo said:
Void saying "he shouldn't be there" means exactly what she means. He is subconsciously attempting to reach the root in his dreams. Void sees this and tells him not to attempt that. We know exactly what would happen to Ritsuka if he reached there. He would get erased, hence the warning from Void. It might not seem obvious that it's a warning, but that just how Void chooses to speak. I mean, Void already said he can't be there because he has a name so why would Ritsuka be able to access something that he doesn't qualify for?
Click to expand...
That's not grammatically correct. First, you're attempting to switch words out. The void never said he "can't" be there but that he "shouldn't." Telling someone you "shouldn't be here" means that they are there. Further, the other statements made by Void throughout disprove such a notion entirely:

Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?

Furthermore, the Monad must be omniscient. The fact that Void expressed confusion about Ritsuka's presence there is also a disqualifier.
 
Deagonx said:
That's not grammatically correct. First, you're attempting to switch words out. The void never said he "can't" be there but that he "shouldn't." Telling someone you "shouldn't be here" means that they are there. Further, the other statements made by Void throughout disprove such a notion entirely:
Click to expand...
The context here matters. Saying "He shouldn't" be here can also mean "he can't be here." For example, I can say that the Earth shouldn't rotate anti clockwise. And if I switched it for "can't," it would still mean the same.
Deagonx said:
Furthermore, the Monad must be omniscient. The fact that Void expressed confusion about Ritsuka's presence there is also a disqualifier.
Click to expand...
This is a minor nitpicking considering we have plethora of evidence suggesting Void is in fact omniscient. I boil this down to just plot progression. Also considering Saber Shiki which Ritsuka actually ,et in his dream isn't Void Shiki per se, this barely has any effect on Root/Void Shiki.
 
Tdjwo said:
The context here matters. Saying "He shouldn't" be here can also mean "he can't be here." For example, I can say that the Earth shouldn't rotate anti clockwise. And if I switched it for "can't," it would still mean the same.
Click to expand...
That's wrong, "shouldn't" implies "that was meant to be something that couldn't happen, but something is contradicting that". If a character is looking at Earth from space and says "That shouldn't be rotating anti-clockwise...." that means that the Earth is rotating anti-clockwise, a thing which they thought was impossible.

But really, we shouldn't be arguing about the difference in English, since it was written in Japanese.
 
Tdjwo said:
Saying "He shouldn't" be here can also mean "he can't be here."
Click to expand...
This is the last reply I'll make on the subject. Those two things are not equivalent, and they cannot be substituted for each other. They sound close enough that if someone wasn't paying close enough attention they could be tricked into thinking so, but a trick is all it is.

You are rewriting the words of the story because the actual words written contradict you. That's all that really needs to be said on the subject.
 
guys guys guys
will this be 1-A?
 
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Ben_CleverName said:
I've also heard that under verse equalization these Tier 0 entities would be considered the same entity, so then... how is this going to impact profile structuring? Are all Tier 0 beings supposed to just have the exact same copy/paste of abilities, no more and no less?
Click to expand...
"Powers and Abilities: Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience (Optional). Specific applications of it that have been showcased are: [X, Y, Z]."
 
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