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Yes.
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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
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Tdjwo
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Bro. Thats not the point. Did they ever succeed? No. Why? Because no one tries ******* with the root and lives to tell the tale.
Void Shiki is the Root (Void=Nothingness).
Hasty12345
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So the root has qualities then, the quality of being Shiki?
Tdjwo
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Huh? Ryougi Shiki is not Void Shiki. Ryougi Shiki doesn't even know Void exists. Void Shiki is just a fandom made up name. In reality. It's just Void.
KingNanaya
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Agnaa
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Comments like this make me lose respect for you.
And really, I don't think they belong in this thread. We're meant to be discussing Ultima's revisions, not shitflinging over whether one specific verse qualifies for tier 0 or not.
anos on very existent misfit 1AH to Boundless 0.1% solo weak root 
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Tier 0 does not have any modifiers like Tier 0 + (or high and low) due to the nature of the tier itself right?
Tdjwo
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I'm just saying things how I see them. I have the proof after all. And I'm pretty sure most of us know this deep down
Even you know that.I guess ur right.
Tdjwo
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No. There's only Tier 0.
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I mean someone proposed tier -0 on the thread but that is just as far as naming ig
Agnaa
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No. Stop trying to socially isolate someone and instill paranoia in them just because you disagree with them on where one series should be rated.I'm just saying things how I see them. I have the proof after all. And I'm pretty sure most of us know this deep down
You're being rude, and it's uncalled for.
That, or, you seriously think that everyone on the planet agrees with you, believing any disagreement to be an intentional lie, that everyone else sees through just as well as you do.
Which is an extremely incorrect, immature, and unproductive worldview, which you'd do best to step out of. If you can't actually jog your mind out of it, at least write as if you don't function that way, otherwise it could lead you into bad behaviour that risks a ban.
Tdjwo
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I'm not trying to do any of that. Thats not my intention. I'm simply saying things from what I and most Nasu supporters have noticed. I think I showed you a screenshot on how Deagon and his pals on discord plotted against Nasuverse never going beyond tier 2. If that isn't an indicator for what I mean, then I don't know what is.
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Hasty12345
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stop framing things in such a negative way. Planning downgrades is not malicious.
Magicomethkuon
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Doesn't help the debate either way. Best to drop and move on.
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Tdjwo
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I'm not framing things. You know exactly what I'm implying. Bias. He was just against the verse in general.
It does. Cuz I would have to unnecessarily argue with him for up to 2 months again once a tier 0 Root thread drops cuz of his stonewalling tendency
Agnaa
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Hasty12345
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From my point of view the Jedi are evil.
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Are you biased, then, because you are "for the verse in general?"
I'm a big Fate fan, but my appreciation for a work of fiction doesn't manifest as desiring VSBW upgrades. Seeing a character or series I enjoy characterized inaccurately is disappointing to me, which is what I am working to prevent.
Tdjwo
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You barely even know stuff about Fate
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bro stfuYou barely even know stuff about Fate
u said u were gonna stop
Tdjwo
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I just said he barely knows Fate which he once admitted to. You stfu.
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which is a completely unnecessary thing to say
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I just tend to think you shouldn't accidentally end up in the "singular undifferentiated transcendent ground floor of existence" itself when you're dreaming and actually meet the personification of the Monad, who is then surprised to see you and says you shouldn't be there.
I also think that if the ground floor of existence itself is "given metaphysical being by the collective consensus of humanity" then it probably isn't an authentic monad per our standards.
But hey. Idk anything about Fate, apparently.
I also think that if the ground floor of existence itself is "given metaphysical being by the collective consensus of humanity" then it probably isn't an authentic monad per our standards.
But hey. Idk anything about Fate, apparently.
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Anyways, I think Phoenks/Agnaa brings up a pretty decent point about the whole tier 0 thing being extended to other attributes. I am curious to see how Ultima responds to it, and how it will effect standards for things like NLF on here, if it does at all.
Tdjwo
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Firstly, Ryougi Shiki is the one "dreaming" not Void. Secondly, how can Void meet the "personification" of a monad if Void itself is the monad aka []I just tend to think you shouldn't accidentally end up in the "singular undifferentiated transcendent ground floor of existence" itself when you're dreaming and actually meet the personification of the Monad, who is then surprised to see you and says you shouldn't be there.
I dont understand why Collective consensus has anything to do with the Root not being Tier 0.I also think that if the ground floor of existence itself is "given metaphysical being by the collective consensus of humanity" then it probably isn't an authentic monad per our standards.
Agnaa
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Something being sustained by, and subject to the agreement of humanity makes it, well, subject to change, and able to have different qualities, making it not qualify for tier 0 under Ultima's new system.
If humanity no longer agreeing that it should exist makes it not exist, it's not tier 0.
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Ritsuka is dreaming, and meets Void in the root.
Tdjwo
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The Root isn't sustained by humanity. It exists separately from the rest of existence. Deagonx most likely misinterpreted the scan.
Magicomethkuon
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Nevermind the first half, but with the other information had about Akasha it seems more likely that this metaphysical being is a lower layer to it rather than something that it depends on to exist. People can give a shape to something without touching the essence of it, like a shell of the real deal. Besides, if it depended on mankind's consensus to exist, there'd be a paradox even in this scan because it already existed before mankind was there.I just tend to think you shouldn't accidentally end up in the "singular undifferentiated transcendent ground floor of existence" itself when you're dreaming and actually meet the personification of the Monad, who is then surprised to see you and says you shouldn't be there.
I also think that if the ground floor of existence itself is "given metaphysical being by the collective consensus of humanity" then it probably isn't an authentic monad per our standards.
But hey. Idk anything about Fate, apparently.
Agnaa
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Maybe there's other scans that say otherwise, and make another interpretation more consistent, but this scan at least clearly says you tap into the root by tapping into the Akashic Record which is given being by the collective consensus of humanity.
(More, in this case, it would be that the Akashic Record giving one access to the root, despite being something lower, would contradict the root being tier 0; something tier 0 should be unreachable through lower mechanisms)
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In some verses, collective belief can alter the world atemporally.
Tdjwo
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He doesn't "meet" her there. He can't access it. That's why Void said he can't be there because the mere fact that he has a name makes him unqualified to be there. At best he's in a state where he knows he's communicating with something he doesn't even understand. That's why he was confused when he woke up in Chaldea.
All its saying is thay the Akashic Records which records everything, is considered a metaphysical being by all of humanity. I dont exactly see anything that invalidates it.
Agnaa
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Anything being able to give you Tier 0 power, or access to a Tier 0 construct, other than:
- A tier 0 granting a wish on your behalf, through their own power.
- A character realising that they were tier 0 all along.
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