The Battle of Gods

[Missy0124]

I'll name a few of the blatant contradictive things that the daizenshuu makes example one is tien being a alien and example two is android 8 being a humanoid based jinzo negin like 17 and 18

 

[Dragomer]

I'll name a few of the blatant contradictive things that the daizenshuu makes example one is tien being a alien and example two is android 8 being a humanoid based jinzo negin like 17 and 18

Tien is never said to be an alien, he is said to be the descend of the triclops who are aliens, nothing contradict that.

and Eighter was a frankenstein reference, that's why the daizenshuu said that.

Also it doesn't answer my question : why is it a probleme now when the daizenshuu is actualy used all the time and multiple profile use Daizenshuu stuff ?

 

[Missy0124]

Dragomer

Tien was said to be a human and his design is a reference to someone opening their third eye so the alien statement is contradictive to the story and the lore inspiring it.

But the statement of eighter being a human based jinzo negin is contradictory to the narrative.

Cause it is outdated when factoring in new sources in like super and is blatantly contradictive

By the logic of the daizenshuu ssj4 goku should surpass bog god goku

 

[Dragomer]

Dragomer
Tien was said to be a human and his design is a reference to someone opening their third eye so the alien statement is contradictive to the story and the lore inspiring it. But the statement of eighter being a human based jinzo negin is contradictory to the narrative.

Cause it is outdated when factoring in new sources in like super and is blatantly contradictive

By the logic of the daizenshuu ssj4 goku should surpass bog god goku

Tien IS human, he is just a descendent of an alien clan, like Naruto so no, the alien statement contradict nothing.

Goku being an alien from a warrior race also contradict the lore of the Monkey King that inspired him, it doesn't mean shit.

Litteraly nothing new actualy contradicted it though, even Hell in DBS is closer to what is said in the daizenshuu than what was shown in the DBZ anime for exemple.

So once again, you didn't answer my question, why is it a no-no here when it was used and accepted for dozens of other argument both in favor and against DB ?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Can we not derail the thread please?

 

[Dragomer]

Can we not derail the thread please?

Weather the daizenshuu argument is valid or not is a pretty big deal, if the answer is no, we might as well close the thread cause the map used to say the kaioshin realm is outside the universe come from it.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Arguing about what's was contradicted is irrelevant however the DBS manga supports the ROTK exists outside of the universe.

 

[LordTracer]

Uh, no, the map that says the Kaioshin realm is outside the universe came from Toriyama himself. Not the Daizenshuu.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Uh, no, the map that says the Kaioshin realm is outside the universe came from Toriyama himself. Not the Daizenshuu.

Do you think you can find it?

 

[LordTracer]

It's just this. It was made by Toriyama.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok.

 

[Dragomer]

It's just this. It was made by Toriyama.

So was the one in the daizenshuu, the one you linked was either from Daizenshuu 4 or the super exciting guide IIRC.

But now that i think about it, the validity of the guides themself don't matter when the maps were drawn by Toriyama.

Another argument to say that the anime doesn't portray the universe like just because of convenience is that they didn't portray earth like it was shown on the maps made by Toriyama either, it was just a generic earth with the same continent as us, because it was more convenient, not because DBS just decided that everything we knew about earth in that universe was wrong.

 

[Missy0124]

Dragomer


Comparing tien to naruto is dumb due to the fact that naruto was stated to be that in the mainline manga chapters and not some one off guide book.


Naruto is reincarnated from gods not aliens a and b he is in no way actually related to these gods like tien is stated to be.


Cause it never got brought up which is why i never mentioned it.


If tien is a alien why did it never get brought up in any other medium aside from this one guidebook

 

[LordTracer]

So was the one in the daizenshuu, the one you linked was either from Daizenshuu 4 or the super exciting guide IIRC.

But now that i think about it, the validity of the guides themself don't matter when the maps were drawn by Toriyama.

Another argument to say that the anime doesn't portray the universe like just because of convenience is that they didn't portray earth like it was shown on the maps made by Toriyama either, it was just a generic earth with the same continent as us, because it was more convenient, not because DBS just decided that everything we knew about earth in that universe was wrong.

Yeah, just because Toriyama lets them put the map in the guide, it doesn't make it invalid when it was drawn by the man himself.

 

[Missy0124]

LordTracer


Toriyama drew a majority of movie,filler and game characters does that make canon cause he drew them.

 

[LordTracer]

Those are explicitly created for non-canon properties, so that's not really equivalent.

 

[Master_Xar]

LordTracer


Toriyama drew a majority of movie,filler and game characters does that make canon cause he drew them.

That's not the same thing. Of course those things aren't Canon to the actual continuity of the story. The map on the other hand call certain aspects of the continuity in question, explaining how the universe world functions the fact that it's in a guide nontheless

 

[Dragomer]

Anyone has contacted any knowledgable members yet ? it's probably not getting added unless we get a few to agree and the thread is getting long.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Anyone has contacted any knowledgable members yet ? it's probably not getting added unless we get a few to agree and the thread is getting long.

They haven't responded.

 

[LordTracer]

I contacted Dark649.

 

[Elizhaa]

Sorry for the late replu, I was busy irl.

A question what are those Option 1, 2, and 3 because I kept reading about them but the thread's OP doesn't mentioned them?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

To quote

As such, I propose one of three things.

• Option One - Goku and Beerus would have destroyed the mortal universe, which resembles our universe and is thus a space-time continuum, and they reached other realms. (Low 2-C)
• Option Two - Goku and Beerus would have destroyed all of Universe 7, including the aforementioned mortal universe as well as alternate dimensions such as the Kaioshin realm and Afterlife, as well as the Room of Spirit and Time that was stated by Dende to be a universe, and his statement is far more reliable than Goku's. (2-C)
• Option Three - Goku and Beerus' shockwaves would destroyed the universe and the afterlife, which are connected and and forms a globe like structure, and they were able to reach the Kaioshin realm outside of Universe 7, and they would have destroyed it. (Low 2-C)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Option 3 is our main focus RN.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, but DDM said the thread could only remain open if we focused solely on option three, so options one and two were removed.

 

[Elizhaa]

Option 3 sounds like it could be valid. From what I know, there are supporting evidences from Kaioshin realm would be impossible to reach without special abilities like teleportation from the Daizenshuu. So far, from what I know, the Daizenshuu has not be debunked on the topic of Kaioshin realm being spatially separated from the Living World.

 

[LordTracer]

Can I consider that a vote of support?

 

[Elizhaa]

Can I consider that a vote of support?

I am willing to change my opinion if the point on Kaioshin realm being spatially separated from the Living World is debunked, but yes for now, it is a vote of support for Option 3.

 

[LordTracer]

Cool.

 

[FrancoGYFV]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxy2dyhMgA

Around 0:30

Maybe it's just me, but I always interpreted that the "spheres" around the big ass glare were supposed to represente universes 6 and 7.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Option 3 sounds like it could be valid. From what there are supporting evidences from Kaioshin realm would be impossible to reach without special abilities like teleportation from the Daizenshuu. So, far, from what I know, the Daizenshuu has not be debunked on the topic of Kaioshin realm being spatially separated from the Living World.

Even the daizenshuu says it's completely separated.

 

[Godhand1999]

The Realm of the Kai (ROTK) isn't only disconnected but it requires dimension travel. Just like the other universes, they're outside the universe and require dimension travel so what's the difference? Isn't that how we treat other fictions? If something exists outside the universe and it requires any form of dimension travel then they aren't part of the same continuum. No one is addressing it outside of just saying "no". Details are important.

That's another dimension. If it's not confirmed that it has a space/time continuum then that's it. That's not how we categorize something that's low 2-C. Just because it requires dimensional travel that doesn't mean it's low 2-C Especially when Dragon Ball doesn't have separate timelines. All the timelines are in the same continuum.

Also, The Kaioshin Realm isn't even universe sized. The Daizenshuu never describes it as a universe, it's just another dimension that's located outside the macrocosm. It's described as being 1/10th in size compared to the Macrocosm, but all the Kaioshin Realm has is numerous suns, the Kaio planet, and a couple moons. It's ridiculously small, lol

 

[Godhand1999]

This feat is would STILL be a 3-A feat. It is not Low-2C because Goku and Beerus's clash was going to destroy everything within the universe, not it's space/time continuum. The fact that their power reaches the Kaioshin Realm is rendered null and void because the Kaioshin Realm is not universe sized.

May I ask why the OP is using the Dragon Ball Super Manga? The Dragon Ball Super Manga and Anime are two different entities. This shouldn't be a thing like at all.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Godhand when did I ever say the ROTK was a universe, and why would the size matter?

 

[Godhand1999]

@Godhand when did I ever say I was a universe at all?

You and the OP are making a claim that Goku and Beerus's clash would be low 2-C because their power would be felt in other realms like the Kaioshin Realm. That's not a Low 2-C feat at all, whatsoever.

Unless I'm missing something and you're referring to something else?

 

[Elizhaa]

I think their argument from Option 3 is that because their clash can affect the Kaioshin Realm which woud be spatially separated according to the Daizenshuu, then it proved their clash can affect space-time hence the destruction of the universe would be Low 2-C not 3-A, Godhand1999.

 

[Master_Xar]

I think their argument from Option 3 is that because their clash can affect the Kaioshin Realm which woud be spatially separated accaording to the Daizenshuu, then it proved their clash can affect space-time hence the destruction of the universe would be Low 2-C not 3-A, Godhand1999.

not to mention the scaling and how multiple statements revolving around the feat hint at it as the OP posted, and if it was strictly physical it wouldn't destroy the souls of the Kaioshin realm. They later affect and destroy spacetime multiple ways such as being able to hit IZ who merged with space-time, Vegeta destroying the time chamber, etc.

I go with option 3 for now.

 

[PowerToScale]

@Elizhaa

What are your thoughts on the Beerus Vs Goku clash going to destroy the demon realm as well? It is stated that the Demon is realm is in its own dimension that is in the universe/living world. It is also stated that magic has great influence in the demon realm than science.

It states that the only way to the demon realm is through a gate, and even references an episode of Dragon Ball where Goku used said gate to go into the demon realm. Do you think this further the notion of it being a low 2-C feat, not 3-A?

 

[Akreious]

This feat is would STILL be a 3-A feat. It is not Low-2C because Goku and Beerus's clash was going to destroy everything within the universe, not it's space/time continuum. The fact that their power reaches the Kaioshin Realm is rendered null and void because the Kaioshin Realm is not universe sized.
May I ask why the OP is using the Dragon Ball Super Manga? The Dragon Ball Super Manga and Anime are two different entities. This shouldn't be a thing like at all.

I feel like this still ignores the problem of how is physical destruction of matter supposed to destroy the souls and spirits in the Afterlife? Physical Matter destruction will literally do NOTHING against souls because the whole point is that they lack physical bodies and has left physical existence (Only exceptions are people who are allowed to retain their bodies in the afterlife, everybody else are faceless blobs).

This wouldn't be a problem if the feat was Low 2-C since Space-Time Destruction wouldn't care whether you're physical or not, you exist in that Universe's Space-Time and its destruction would also mean yours.

 

[Joshku1788]

I vote low 2-C for Battle of Gods God Goku. It's purely obvious that the mortal universe, and otherworld, and hell are different spacetimes. Universal sized too.

 

[AwkguyDB]

question, if the Universe size realms seperate from the living realm, Heaven and Hell, are accepted to have their own SP-TM, would this affect Janemba's Reality Warp feat?