The Battle of Gods

[Giygas3]

Hmm... "Except my point is showing that one of the only two statements implying Tier 3 is inaccurate, showing that the Tier 2 statements are far more consistent. Also the universe itself is a space-time continuum, and the Kaioshin realm is located outside of that, so it's still Low 2-C."

The first nor second one is a tier 2 statement. The only actual one that I could reasonably see which is tier 2 is the last one, So tier 3 is actually more consistent as statement wise goes for this feat.

"And the Universe 7 map is applicable to Super. "

I don't know why you seem so inclined to not to answer my question. I don't care if it's applicable or not, All I care about is if Super depicts it the same way - Does it?

"You said multiple to the contrary, I assumed you had, y'know, more scans and weren't just going to repost the two I brought up and are explicitly going against."

Multiple, as in two. One outright contradicts you, the second one also seems to contradict you, while the last two supports you. I don't see why they would be anything new when those were the only statements we ever got on the feat?

"Also destroy is a synonym of break. As is annihilate, demolish, disintegrate, eradicate, several words that would mean the feat is Low 2-C. And again, Goku and Beerus weren't just affecting the inside of the universe... "

Break means to shatter into different pieces, destroy can mean this as well. On the wiki Destroy means to annihilate every piece of the object to nothing left of it at all. And in this case, it would be to reduce it to the point not even Space-Time is left. They mean two separate things, you can't just, "Break" the Universe, because there's nothing to break.

"You can't only destroy what's inside the universe while also explicitly destroying something that's outside of it."

And why can't I? Does Range now translate into AP?

 

[Dragomer]

You can't only destroy a vase when the wall next to the vase also exploded basicaly, that's not a question of range, it's a question of Goku's attack not being selectively intangible.

 

[Giygas3]

@Dragomer Was that a reply to me?

 

[LordTracer]

"The first nor second one is a tier 2 statement. The only actual one that I could reasonably see which is tier 2 is where Old Kai says it will end the world. So tier 3 is actually more consistent as statement wise goes."

> "The two continue their brawl, hitting each other again and again with power capable of destroying even the universe itself." That's Low 2-C. "That power is capable of destroying the universe..." That's Low 2-C. "If that energy disperses, the world will end for sure." Also Low 2-C. "The super-power clash between the two... was about to destroy the universe!" Once again, Low 2-C. So again, there's only one valid 3-A statement against four Low 2-C statements.

"I don't know why you seem so inclined to not to answer my question. I don't care if it's applicable or not, All I care about is if Super depicts it the same way - Does it?"

> The fact that it applies to Super answers your question that yes, it is depicted the same.

"Multiple, as in two. One outright contradicts you, the second one also seems to contradict you, while the last two supports you. I don't see why they would be anything new when those were the only statements we ever got on the feat?"

> I already debunked one, Goku and Beerus very clearly weren't going to only destroy what's inside Universe 7 because the Kaioshin realm was threatened as well.

"Break means to shatter into different pieces, destroy can mean this as well. On the wiki Destroy means to annihilate every piece of the object to nothing left of it at all. And in this case, it would be to reduce it to the point not even Space-Time is left. They mean two separate things, you can't just, "Break" the Universe, because there's nothing to break."

> And annihilate in a synonym of break, so... you basically just agreed with me. And your last sentence also agrees with me.

"And why can't I?"

> Because you'd be destroying only what is inside of the universe. Something outside of the universe clearly does not apply to that.

 

[Akreious]

"I don't know why you seem so inclined to not to answer my question. I don't care if it's applicable or not, All I care about is if Super depicts it the same way - Does it?"

Yes, it actually shows up once!

"Break means to shatter into different pieces, destroy can mean this as well. On the wiki Destroy means to annihilate every piece of the object to nothing left of it at all. And in this case, it would be to reduce it to the point not even Space-Time is left. They mean two separate things, you can't just, "Break" the Universe, because there's nothing to break."

Breaking the universe as a term to mean "Universal Destruction" is actually very common in Japanese Fiction and this is definitely not the first instance of it.

"And why can't I? Does Range now translate into AP?" The statement is paradoxical. If Goku's range supposedly only encompasses the inside of a Universe, it should not be capable of destroying something outside of the Universe or else the first part of this statement has to be untrue.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer Was that a reply to me?

Yes

 

[Giygas3]

"The two continue their brawl, hitting each other again and again with power capable of destroying even the universe itself." That's Low 2-C. "That power is capable of destroying the universe..." That's Low 2-C."

Edited that part. I'm only talking about their clashing feat. The other feat that Beerus performed I'm completely fine with.

"The fact that it applies to Super answers your question that yes, it is depicted the same. "

No. A guide can say something that's never depicted in the anime, but it can still be applied to it. Let me reword it so I get my point across more straight: Does Super ever show Or Tell that the Kaioshin Realm is outside of the Universe?

"And annihilate in a synonym of break, so... you basically just agreed with me. And your last sentence also agrees with me. "

Let me ask you something: Can you break air?

"Because you'd be destroying only what is inside of the universe. Something outside of the universe clearly does not apply to that. "

Okay, let me give you an analogy: Say we have Universe 1 and Universe 2, but Universes are within the same Space-Time. Now I release an explosion in Universe 1, completely and utterly destroying what's inside the Universe - But still not powerful enough to destroy the Universe entirely, while the explosion continues to expand, eventually engulfing the second Universe, and destroying what's inside that Universe. I only needed to destroyed the matter, without destroying the Space-Time of the Universes. There, I destroyed what's inside the Universe, while also destroying things outside of it.

 

[Giygas3]

@Akreius "Yes, it actually shows up once! " Can you post it?

"Breaking the universe as a term to mean "Universal Destruction" is actually very common in Japanese Fiction and this is definitely not the first instance of it."

Okay, if that's true then never mind. I'm taking the term a bit too... literal, I suppose.

"If Goku's range supposedly only encompasses the inside of a Universe, it should not be capable of destroying something outside of the Universe or else the first part of this statement has to be untrue. "

Of course, only encompasses the inside of the Universe. I'm arguing that his range in this case would encompass more, and not just the inside of the Universe.

 

[Giygas3]

Anyways, I'm getting too tired to continue this discussion for today. I'll rethink my position after I take a nap, and see who else replies, and reply back tomorrow after classes.

 

[Akreious]

So correction, it was the Manga who clearly displayed the Universe Map:


Granted this is Universe 10 but the structure is eerily similar.

In the anime, Whis holds up these spheres with singular galaxies in them as representations of the Universe (which obviously can't hold true since the Universe only having 4 Galaxies has long been debunked, let alone singular Galaxy-sized Universe).

 

[LordTracer]

"Edited that part. I'm only talking about their clashing feat. The other feat that Beerus performed I'm completely fine with."

> Still two feats v. one. The Low 2-C is still more consistent than the 3-A. And if you agree with the rest being Low 2-C, why are you even arguing this?

"No. A guide can say something that's never depicted in the anime, but it can still be applied to it. Let me reword it so I get my point across more straight: Does Super ever show Or Tell that the Kaioshin Realm is outside of the Universe?"

> If it's still applicable then it would obviously be the same... and no, the DBS anime doesn't explicitly show the Kaioshin realm being outside the universe, nor does it show that it's outside the universe. However, considering the fact that the map is still applicable to Super and was drawn by Toriyama himself and DBS displays the universe as only as only a single galaxy, Toriyama's map should be used and therefore: Kaioshin realm = outside of universe.

"Let me ask you something: Can you break air?"

> If you destroy the atmosphere of a planet, you effectively break the air of the planet. Though you did say you were taking the term break too literally, so nvm here I guess.

"Okay, let me give you an analogy: Say we have Universe 1 and Universe 2, but Universes are within the same Space-Time. Now I release an explosion in Universe 1, completely and utterly destroying what's inside the Universe - But still not powerful enough to destroy the Universe entirely, while the explosion continues to expand, eventually engulfing the second Universe, and destroying what's inside that Universe. I only needed to destroyed the matter, without destroying the Space-Time of the Universes. There, I destroyed what's inside the Universe, while also destroying things outside of it."

> You're missing what I'm saying. If you are ONLY destroying things in the universe, like Beerus and Goku were stated to be doing, you cannot also destroy things outside of the universe. Only is the key word here. Also it would require a lot more assumptions to say your analogy is what happened as opposed to the statement just being contradicted.

Also I'd just like to note that you either agreed with or didn't respond to my points of Whis' time travel being the only way to travel between the Living realm, afterlife and Kaioshin realm without teleportation, the Living realm being a space-time continuum and the afterlife being the same size as said space-time continuum, so do you agree with the notion that Universe 7 is a 2-C structure or...

 

[Akreious]

Plus the Universe-Busting feat being Low 2-C is again, consistent with Goku being confident he'd be able to do something against Infinite Zamasu if he had a Senzu.

Plus it aligns with the old thread where Japanese Uchuu/Universe = Low 2-C in most fictions as established in a previous thread.

 

[LordTracer]

Everyone who agrees so far, would you mind picking one of the three options you agree with the most? I'm going to start a tally of the amount of votes each option gets.

 

[Akreious]

Probably Option 3. Since we know that the Kaioshin realm and such still has at least some ties to the normal Universe as awhole, it probably shares a Space-Time in some form or another.

Still makes this Low 2-C feat significantly higher than it would be otherwise.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yeah I'd say Option 3 as well.

 

[Ionliosite]

While I fully disagree with 2-C U7 for obvious reasons, I think Low 2-C would make some sense, considering the scaling between these characters eventually reaches 2-C via being stronger. Option 3 makes more sense, since, as I stated before, I disagree U7 has more than one space-time.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok looks like Option 3 is our best bet so far.

 

[PowerToScale]

I'm on the fence between option two and option three.

 

[Akreious]

I guess it's more accurate to say U7 is a Space-Time with multiple Spaces and one Time. If that makes any sense.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Option 3 is the most literal and straightforward. Anyway who's gonna get the staff up in here? Cause I sure as hell ain't.

 

[PowerToScale]

The afterlife was stated in the manga by goku iirc, to have a different time. Whereas the dragon ball wiki has it that goku saying there is no time in the afterlife. Pretty sure heaven and hell are also separate as well.

The very nature of the demon realm is completely different from the universe, where magic has a greater influence if science.

ROSAT has a different time completely from the rest of the universe. Plus there's that new ROSAT that goku and meerus are trying that has a different time.

The Kai realm is stated to be outside of the universe and observes it. That's pretty much it. We just know its a separate realm, out side the universe and you need the highest level shunkan idou ability.

 

[SSJRyu1]

It's a 2-C feat. Demon realm is clearly stated to be a seperate dimesnion than the Universe with diffrent physical laws more like magic in the official guides. Both are their own dimension in the living world according to guides. Other world is then by extension a seperate dimesnion or space time as well, which is further backed up by it being seperated and impossible to reach by normal travel, and the fact it is said time flows diffrently there. And again Kaioshin realm is consistently depicted as a seperate space to. So it's a 2-C structure.

However if we burry our heads in the sand about it being a 2-C structure and feat, then it is still Low 2-C as a structure and feat with downplay given it's made clear the Universe itself would be annihalated, including other spaces, and space time is part of said Universe.

It is also more consistent with scaling as tier 2, since anybody around SSJB Goku level in ToP is already tier 2, and I find it silly to think SSJB Vegeta from ToP is more than infinitly above SSJB Vegeta in Zamasu arc.

So my vote is 2-C since that is actually accurate for the feat and cosmology and more consistent scaling wise, but in lew of calling the U7 macrocausm Low 2-C then I would offer my support for Low 2-C as it is at least closer to being accurate than 3-A imo.

 

[PowerToScale]

I agree with SSJRyu1

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I agree with Ryu as well

 

[Akreious]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2860239

I found the thread where people generally agreed Universe feats are considered Low 2-C until otherwise specified.

Beyond a single "Reduce to a vacuum" statement (Amongst numerous "Destroy the universe" statements), Low 2-C Dragon Ball is significantly more consistent with what comes afterwards (Goku being confident he can do something about Infinite Zamasu if he had a Senzu) and fixes the problem that Jiren literally held back beyond infinitely against Goku and Vegeta which... doesn't really make sense since you can't jump tiers by powering up by 10x.

Beerus and Champa are 1/2 of 2-C each via destroying Universes 6 and 7 should they fight and the terms used for them is the same as when against Goku: The Universe will be destroyed. Period. There is no distinction made between the two in the show, Goku's Universe-Busting isn't any less dangerous or threatening than Beerus and Champa's threat of blowing up both their respective Universes.

Edit: Since there's so many posts I can only skim through it since I have limited time but on the 3rd follow up Thread:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2913135

They're talking about how Space is intertwined with Time so the total destruction of 1 should affect the other, I think?

Anyways point is, Dragon Ball is 3-A based off of one statement amongst multiple others which is directly contradicted with implied Low 2-C feats later on and confirmed Low 2-C with Jiren.

Also wait why isn't Infinite Zamasu 2-C again? Zeno is 2-C for destroying all the Universes but he only did so because Infinite Zamasu BECAME all the Universes

This is in Zeno's Profile: Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

No

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Absolutely not.

Universe destruction is 3-A unless it's indicated that space-time would be affected. There is no evidence that space-time would be destroyed in the Battle of Gods fight. It only states that the universe would be turned into an empty void, implying a vacuum.

You can have multiple universal spaces in a single space-time conntinuum so Universe 7 having realms outside the mortal universe doesn't mean anything.

Also there's nothing new here, this has been rejected multiple times before.

 

[Lavcore]

 

[PowerToScale]

It was going to affect the Kaioshin realm which is a seperate space and it was going to affect the Demon realm which have statements of them being their own space-times.

 

[Akreious]

Absolutely not.
Universe destruction is 3-A unless it's indicated that space-time would be affected. There is no evidence that space-time would be destroyed in the Battle of Gods fight. It only states that the universe would be turned into an empty void, implying a vacuum.

You can have multiple universal spaces in a single space-time conntinuum so Universe 7 having realms outside the mortal universe doesn't mean anything.

Also there's nothing new here, this has been rejected multiple times before.

No, turning it into a vacuum was only one statement amongst many "Hakai" and "Destroy" statements in relation to the Universe. The Empty Void is literally a singular statement.

The whole basis that the feat is only 3-A is based off of a single statement directly contradicted when Goku was confident he'd be able to do something about Infinite Zamasu if he had a Senzu, and directly confirmed with the appearance of Jiren.

Also, have you not read over the thread I linked above? The whole premise of the thread is that almost no fiction treats Universe Destruction as 3-A as we know it, especially when the whole Infinite Zamasu thing comes up.

There's significantly more in favour of Low 2-C than there is 3-A.

And even then, why're we taking "Turn to a void" as it is literally? We've been considering these play on words and detailed descriptors as nothing but that; fluff descriptors. Why is it that when one comes up amongst heavy Low 2-C Implications do we take that over everything else?

And not only that, prior there was no precident on how to treat Universes. There is now, as per discussed above.

AND EVEN THEN! How in the world is the Physical Destruction of the Universe supposed to destroy all the Souls in the Afterlife when as we established, Goku and Co can't touch souls? This, like many others, can be explained if they were straight up Low 2-C and the destruction of the Universe would destroy them amongst all along the Timeline, not only their physical counterparts.

 

[LordTracer]

No

> Well that's not very helpful input, now is it?

Universe destruction is 3-A unless it's indicated that space-time would be affected. There is no evidence that space-time would be destroyed in the Battle of Gods fight. It only states that the universe would be turned into an empty void, implying a vacuum.

> Except the Japanese definition of universe is Low 2-C, the mortal universe is stated to be a space-time continuum and the afterlife is the same size as it, and there's literally only a single statement that implies 3-A as opposed to Low 2-C/2-C.

You can have multiple universal spaces in a single space-time conntinuum so Universe 7 having realms outside the mortal universe doesn't mean anything.

> Except the mortal universe itself IS a space-time continuum and the Kaioshin realm is outside of the entire Universe 7 globe, not just the mortal universe.

Also there's nothing new here, this has been rejected multiple times before.

Really, I've looked through quite a few threads and I haven't seen anyone go over the fact that Goku and Beerus destroying the Kaioshin realm would explicitly contradict one of the only two Tier 3 statements with this feat.

 

[Master_Xar]

Still it would make sense with the scaling Beerus and Champa's feat already calls to question the low 2-C to 2-C gap with them along with Infinite Zamasu and it makes sense with Goku impressing Beerus despite being low 2-C Beerus would barely see Goku as a speck on his radar let alone impressed.

 

[Celestial_Judge]

This confirms Goku is outerverse level+

 

[Dragomer]

This is going better than i though.

 

[LordTracer]

Yes, I thought this would have been disastrous. Thankfully, everything seems to be going smoothly. By the way, Dragomer, which of the three options do you agree with if any?

 

[Dragomer]

Yes, I thought this would have been disastrous. Thankfully, everything seems to be going smoothly. By the way, Dragomer, which of the three options do you agree with if any?

As i said earlier (though i was probably unclear), i agree with 2 and 3, mostly 2 but since it will probably never pass, 3 is good enough.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, I'll count you with 2 since you agree with it the most.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I heavily suggest we mostly focus on Option 3 so the thread won't be derailed.

 

[LordTracer]

Perhaps, but at the moment option two does have more votes. and atm the main purpose is getting everyone to realize BoG is at least Low 2-C, the option we go with can come after that.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This is going better than i though.

Just wait till the staff get here.