The Battle of Gods (Part 2)

[Joshku1788]

Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.


That doesn't mean they are universe sized Josh.

Then qhy does Other World appear universe sized in the macrocosm?

 

[Joshku1788]

Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.


That doesn't mean they are universe sized Josh.

Then why does Other World appear universe sized in the macrocosm?

 

[AshenCrow777]

Assuming that the Low 2-C upgrade doesn't go through, would the characters receive NPI via being able to destroy ghosts with their shockwaves and range upgrades for being able to reach other dimensions with them? If I'm understanding what the Counter arguments are for the proposed Low 2-C feats correctly.

When did they ever destroy any kind of ghost???

 

[DMB_1]

Then qhy does Other World appear universe sized in the macrocosm?

Because it would simply be 3Dimensionally as large as the mortal universe. That says nothing about space and time.

Also, avoid quoting large blocks of text.

 

[Dragomer]

It's not ludicrous at all. For one you're using a strawman and are completely misrepresenting our arguments.

It is ludicrous and you know it, that's why you reduced your comment to one line trying to argue that since it wasn't directly stated to destroy the space time continuum (a statement 99% of all low 2-C lack), it couldn't be low 2-C.

The discussion should have been over the moment the whole 'only physical' thing was debunked, because it only left one option that made any sense.

 

[Dragomer]

So what the against people are saying that the waves magically get NPI after surfing time itself to reach their dimension before destroying them? Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds?

"Surfing time."
No, they aren't separate space-times, you don't have to destroy space-time to affect something that is in the same space-time.

Except yes, that's what they would need to do, when you destroy something that isn't spacialy / physicaly connected in any way to the rest of what you're destroying, your attack need to go through the only thing linking the two : the space time continuum.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

When did they ever destroy any kind of ghost???

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3567658#12

 

[Sera_EX]

It is ludicrous and you know it, that's why you reduced your comment to one line trying to argue that since it wasn't directly stated to destroy the space time continuum (a statement 99% of all low 2-C lack), it couldn't be low 2-C.

False. I didn't reduce my argument. And no, 99% of Low 2-C feats do not lack space time statements or feats. Cronus, Bhunivelze, Ultimecia, Superman, The Phoenix Force, all these characters and more have more appropriate statements out outright feats that back up their Low 2-C+ ratings.

 

[Dragomer]

Only "all of existence" universal statements are Low 2-C by default, not entire cosmos statements.

And no one said that it was low 2-C by default, it's low 2-C because it was going to destroy something that isn't physicaly / spacialy connected to the universe that is also being destroy, all of what is being destroyed only being linked by the space time continuum.

And all of existence in dragon ball refer to AT LEAST a timeline, which would be outright 2-C (see Zeno).

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Except yes, that's what they would need to do, when you destroy something that isn't spacialy / physicaly connected in any way to the rest of what you're destroying, your attack need to go through the only thing linking the two : the space time continuum.

No, you don't have to destroy space-time to destroy realms that are a 3D distance apart.

 

[Dragomer]

It is ludicrous and you know it, that's why you reduced your comment to one line trying to argue that since it wasn't directly stated to destroy the space time continuum (a statement 99% of all low 2-C lack), it couldn't be low 2-C.False. I didn't reduce my argument. And no, 99% of Low 2-C feats do not lack space time statements or feats. Cronus, Bhunivelze, Ultimecia, Superman, The Phoenix Force, all these characters and more have more appropriate statements out outright feats that back up their Low 2-C+ ratings.

Those few guys aren't 99% of low 2-C on site and you know it, the characters with space time statement are less than an handful on this site and yet they still get low 2-C.

Yeah, more appropriate than a universal destruction feat that CAN'T happen without affecting space time to begin with and is directly shown and said to affect non-physical things, making the 3-A possibility null, the shockwaves tony hawking on space time to reach their matter only destruction of a bunch of non-physical souls is so much more logical and appropriate of an interpretation.

 

[Dragomer]

Except yes, that's what they would need to do, when you destroy something that isn't spacialy / physicaly connected in any way to the rest of what you're destroying, your attack need to go through the only thing linking the two : the space time continuum.

No, you don't have to destroy space-time to destroy realms that are a 3D distance apart.

They aren't 3D distance apart, there is no space connecting them, 3D distance doesn't even make logical sense in that context, that's not how dimensions work.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer Something like "destroying the fabric of existence" would suffice as Low 2-C, as that would by synonymous with space-time. But there's no such statement in Dragon Ball.

Repeating the same points that were already refuted over and over again doesn't strengthen your arguments.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, more appropriate than a universal destruction feat that CAN'T happen without affecting space time to begin with

This is outright false and is not even a thing within our standards. You are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency at the same time, again. The feat can happen without space time being significantly (key word: significantly) affected. Have you grasped that yet?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

They aren't 3D distance apart, there is no space connecting them, 3D distance doesn't even make logical sense in that context, that's not how dimensions work.

They're in the same space-time so yes, they're a 3D distance apart.

What's defined as a dimension also varies depending on the context it's used in.

 

[Dragomer]

Yeah, more appropriate than a universal destruction feat that CAN'T happen without affecting space time to begin with
This is outright false and is not even a thing within our standards. You are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency at the same time, again. The feat can happen without space time being significantly (key word: significantly) affected. Have you grasped that yet?

This is not false, how the hell would it affect the Kaioshin realm then when it's litteraly the only thing linking the two ?

No, i'm not missrepresenting anything, i ******* copy pasted the freaking definition from the freaking tiers page and it's the second or third time you accuse me of that and it's getting insulting, i already said it's not cool.

And how is 'litteraly impossible without doing so' not significant ? give me a single way the shockwaves can reach a totaly spacialy / physicaly seperate realm that is only connected through space time without having anything to do with space time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am 100% on Sera's side here. This is not upgrade-worthy and shouldn't be allowed to pass.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer Something like "destroying the fabric of existence" would suffice as Low 2-C, as that would by synonymous with space-time. But there's no such statement in Dragon Ball.
Repeating the same points that were already refuted over and over again doesn't strengthen your arguments.

Where is the rules saying you need a statement like that ? nowhere so not an argument.

None of my points were refuted, if anything they were accepted because multiple people admitted the 'physical only' stuff was bulshit in the previous thread and no one has any counter argument against it needing to go through space time to reach a spatialy seperated place and no 'it's muh range' isn't a counter argument because there can't be range without space, not without being low 2-C to begin with.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

They're saying there's space time surrounding the universe and the Kai realm. Is there a picture of that continuum?

 

[Sera_EX]

Time is not the only thing linking the two.

Stop saying I'm insulting you, I'm not. And yes, you are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency standards.

 

[Dragomer]

Time is not the only thing linking the two.
Stop saying I'm insulting you, I'm not. And yes, you are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency standards.

The Author disagree with you, refer to the maps, litteraly 2 different maps.

Sorry but basicaly accusing me of lying IS insulting, especialy when it's repeatedly.

No, i'm not misrepresenting anything, get mad at your own tiers page, not at me, i litteraly copy pasted them, you can't be more direct than that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People with first-hand understanding of the Japanese Language as it is their native tongue are a much more credible source than English-Only speaking DB fans in this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

We both know that a large ammount of people wouldn't call quite a few staff members 'unbiased' and 'rational' and at least one staff members is known to start shit and bait people.

Yeah, much better for it to simply be rated by a small group of people who all know each others and get first and final say on everything, as if it's more reliable and doesn't just put the whole thing in its own bubble.

I used the words "mostly" and "comparatively", and the alternative to at least trying to find and promote the most reliable members to staff positions would be complete anarchy, which, among other things, would mean neverending edit-wars, completely exaggerated statistics across all franchises, and eventually a deleted wiki.

I think that most of the staff members are usually doing their best to listen to the regular members, help them out, and be as rational and levelheaded as they can. All for no pay I might add, and recurrently underappreciated. However, we are also not here to be eternal yes-men, regardless if a suggested revision makes sense or not.

 

[Sera_EX]

I did not accuse of lying. I said you're misrepresenting the system, this is because you don't seem to understand it. I'm not insulting you in the slightest. You outright ignored the math behind the system that no matter what, this feat is not on the level of R^4 or the fourth dimension.

And if anything, the author disagrees with you, not me.

 

[Dragomer]

People with first-hand understanding of the Japanese Language as it is their native tongue are a much more credible source than English-Only speaking DB fans in this thread.

Japanese defintions were never freaking arguments, they were 7 freaking words i put at the end of an argument as a reference to a blog post, it was never part of the revision or any argument.

And i don't only speak english.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also, I am starting to get a bit confused here. First it was said that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm were spatially separated from U7, and then it is being said space-time is the only thing connecting the two. So, which is it? You can't have both at the same time you know.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer Nobody is insulting you. Sera saying that you're misrepresenting the tiering system is telling you that you're doing something wrong, not a personal attack against you.

 

[Dragomer]

I did not accuse of lying. I said you're misrepresenting the system, this is because you don't seem to understand it. I'm not insulting you in the slightest. You outright ignored the math behind the system that no matter what, this feat is not on the level of R^4 or the fourth dimension.
And if anything, the author disagrees with you, not me.

I don't care about supposed math behind the systeme when none of it is included in the actual pages that define the tierings.

And the math change nothing, the only thing it change is that what we say it has to affect because the mechanism stay the same.

Nope, i'v got two maps who quite clearly say what i'm saying while you didn't answer what i asked, if the author agreed with you, i doubt his own maps would quite clearly show that there is nothing connecting the kaioshin realm to anything.

 

[Pritti]

Also, I am starting to get a bit confused here. First it was said that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm were spatially separated from U7, and then it is being said space-time is the only thing connecting the two. So, which is it? You can't have both at the same time you know.

I'm wondering that myself...

 

[Sera_EX]

And the math change nothing, the only thing it change is that what we say it has to affect because the mechanism stay the same.

Untrue. It's the bedrock principles behind even the current system. Even geometrically speaking you're wrong.

 

[Dragomer]

Also, I am starting to get a bit confused here. First it was said that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm were spatially separated from U7, and then it is being said space-time is the only thing connecting the two. So, which is it? You can't have both at the same time you know.

They are seperated spatialy (it's arguable for the afterlife) but within the same space time continuum, that's what the map show (unless you want to say they all have different space time continuum but it was rejected).

You can be spatialy seperated but still within the same space time continuum, that was even the main argument when people made a thread to make U7 a 2-C structure in nature.

 

[AshenCrow777]

@Dragomer trying to appeal to the mass by turning this thread into a staff vs members is not making your argument any more valid.

So yeah drop that whole conspiracy thing it's pointless and you are causing needless circle jerking.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer trying to appeal to the mass by turning this thread into a staff vs members is not making your argument any more valid.
So yeah drop that whole conspiracy thing it's pointless and you are causing needless circle jerking.

I'm not the one who started mentioning the staff at all, if anything i kept trying to stir the discussion away from that since the first thread but when i see basicaly 'the staff disagree so it's no no matter what' after i wasted 2 days arguing, you can't expect me to not at least complain a little.

Yeah, it's us circle jerking, not the minority of people who get to just say 'i disagree with it so it doesn't pass'.

Also i dropped it (see how i didn't respond to Ant again ?) but you're relaunching it.

But **** it if it get derailed at this point since staff said no anyway.

also the word filter thing is a real pain, you know ?

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Yeah, let's drop that completely.

 

[Pritti]

You can be spatialy seperated but still within the same space time continuum

Thank you for finally admitting it. And do you know what this means? Collateral damage could travel throughout time-space and only effect the contents of space. This is even true for attacks sent through time travel.

 

[Dragomer]

You can be spatialy seperated but still within the same space time continuum
Thank you for finally admitting it. And do you know what this means? Collateral damage could travel throughout time-space and only effect the contents of space. This is even true for attacks sent through time travel.

Sorry but how is the shockwave tony hawking space time while still being totaly physical-onlyweswear to destroy souls make any more ******* sense than just the space time continuum being included in the 'will destroy the universe' and 'will destroy everything' type statement since the shockwave has the ability to affect space time either way ? are you really arguing in good faith that the writers wanted to say the former instead of the latter ?

anyway it would affect space time and since matter only destruction is out (because the souls and surfing space time remember ?), it mean the destruction would happen to the space time.rather than purely physical, thus conforming to the goddamn tiering definition to T.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Where is the rules saying you need a statement like that ? nowhere so not an argument.

What? Yes, you do need some indication that implies the universe being destroyed would include its space-time and not just the matter in it. It's how 3-A and Low 2-C are differentiated. Got no evidence of space-time being affected? It's a 3-A feat.

None of my points were refuted, if anything they were accepted because multiple people admitted the 'physical only' stuff was bulshit in the previous thread and no one has any counter argument against it needing to go through space time to reach a spatialy seperated place and no 'it's muh range' isn't a counter argument because there can't be range without space, not without being low 2-C to begin with.

Because when the realms are inside the same space-time, a 3D distance apart from each other, the space-time is irrelevant. You don't need to affect it.

 

[Pritti]

Simple. Because there's no evidence anything more than the cosmos was being threatened. The cosmos means all contents of the time-space, including spatially disconnected worlds and the Kaioshin realm.

Show me Goku v. Beerus affecting Future Trunks' time. That's Low 2-C

 

[Dragomer]

Anyway i'm tired and staff said no so i'm wasting my time, just don't wonder why people complain about the staff when everytime you do the same bulshit of going against what a majority agree with nothing but 'because i said so and have something else to do' and that's ignoring that one guy who keep goading people.

Also the tentative to derail the thread into a staff pity party were really ******* obvious, my dudes.

And i hate your word filter, peace.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You see this scan, they're assuming there's time space that surrounds this but were never shown that. This scan shows a bunch of stars, no Kaioshin realm and no afterlife; they're nowhere to be seen. So this is likely the mortal universe sealed inside the bottom of the Macrocosm. It's more likely to be the mortal universe because A, the mortal universe is said to resemble a real life one, and B, assuming the Macrocosm is inside that blue universe is head canon. This is my interpretation on it. And no one still deconstructed the actual difference between a numbered universe and a Kai realm outside of size.