The Battle of Gods (Part 2)

[PowerToScale]

This is a continuation of the previous thread.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3556639


So, following off of the absolute success my last DBS revision thread was, we now have this.

Goku and Beerus' clash is at the moment considered Tier 3, because of the statements of Goku and Beerus turning Universe 7 into a void and that there would be nothing left in the universe, implying they're only affecting matter.

However, there's more statements and evidence pointing to it being a Tier 2 feat than a Tier 3 one. It should also be noted that the definition of universe in the original Japanese would be Low 2-C, not 3-A.

The Living World is stated in the Daizenshuu to resemble our universe in reality. As our IRL universe is a space-time continuum, the Living World would also be a space-time continuum. Hence the word "reality". It's even compared to sci-fi verses like Star Wars, which has a space-time continuum.

Goku and Beerus' clash was being felt i, and would have destroyed the Kaioshin realm. This directly contradicts the notion that they'd only be destroying matter in the universe, since the Kaioshin realm is located outside of Universe 7. Even in the manga it's shown outside the universe, so the notion that it's one big continuum is shaky especially when the realm of the Kaioshin realm looks to have its own space-time bubble.

The majority of statements in the Beerus Saga just say the universe will be destroyed, not just everything within the universe. One statement even specifically said the entire universe would be destroyed.

It is impossible to freely travel between the Living Realm, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm. If all of Universe 7's realms were a Tier 3 structure and had finite distances between them, it should be entirely possible to travel back and forth between them.

Whis is capable of time traveling via his Warp ability, which is necessary to travel between the Living World, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm as well as the Numbered Universes.

Feats in later sagas back up the U7 feat being Tier 2, such as Frieza surviving Sidra's Hakai, 17 managing to damage Jiren, the GoDs being impressed by Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition, Vegeta, Trunks and Goku surviving Infinite Zamasu's attacks, Goku being confident enough to fight IZ with a senzu bean, Kefla surpassing Ultra Instinct 1 and 2 with only finite increases of power, etc.

In the Daizenshuu, which is approved by Toriyama himself, Vice Shout was covering the mortal universe. Vice Shout only affects space-time, as shown in the RoSaT, and breaking the space-time around the universe shows that the mortal universe is an actual universe.

As such, I propose this. Goku and Beerus' shockwaves would destroyed the entirety of Universe 7 (universe and the afterlife), which are connected and and forms a globe like structure, and they were able to reach the Kaioshin realm outside of Universe 7, and they would have destroyed it. (Low 2-C)

It is also established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

Supporters: 20 (Zamasu Cha, Ionliosite, Hiryu-Z, SuhSuhGuhSuhSuh, Diinou HotHead, SSJRyu1, PowerToScale, DBZMLP12345, Dragomer, AwkguyDB, ArmBill, Milly Rocking Bandit, Missy0124, Joshku1788, Master Xar, GojiBoyForever, Warren Valio, Ted Ed, CryoTheMayo)

Against: 12 (Theuser789, Sera EX, Godhand1999, ShadowWarrior1999, Antvasima, DarkDragonMedeus, Ultima Reality, Yumi-ta, Pritti, AshenCrow777, The real cal howard, VioletVoid100)

Neutral: 4 (Giygas3, Elizhaa, Omegas03, MrLuk2000, Akreious)

 

[GojiBoyForever]

You shoukd post the opponents as well to be fair.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Omg

 

[Dragomer]

You shoukd post the opponents as well to be fair.

Not really his fault since they weren't counted on the other thread.

 

[PowerToScale]

Sorry if I missed anyone, but I think that is everyone. Also, all those who are against the thread you please let me know so I can add a 'Aginst list' to be fair, as GojiBoyForever mentioned.

 

[Akreious]

Don't forget how it's established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

 

[Joshku1788]

Don't forget how it's established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

Exactly

 

[Theuser789]

I still disagree because of Shadow's, Godhand and Sera's reasons

 

[Sera_EX]

It's just been established that Universe 7 does not fit the requirements for Low 2-C size (R^4) and that affecting spatially separated realms is range only (Ultima).

Also it's been debunked that they weren't even saying the time-space was being threatened in actual dialogue. Only the entire cosmos and its inhabitants (physical and non-physical is irrelevant) was in danger. (Pritti and Yumi).

 

[Godhand1999]

Why don't you start by posting the opponents?

 

[Elizhaa]

Don't forget how it's established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

I think this point clash killing thing like souls/Ghost is iffy; most Fictions with Universal Destruction from what I notice look to ignore this point so it is an iffy feat to support Low 2-C, to me.

 

[Sera_EX]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

 

[Godhand1999]

I also agree with what Sera EX said above.

I could repost my responses in this thread as well to give people a good idea of what the opposing side is saying, but eh.

Nothing states that this feat is Low 2-C. It is a 3-A feat and it would've killed both of them in the process BTW.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

Yeah, true.

 

[Dragomer]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

The shockwave litteraly come from their punches, if my punches won't hurt a soul, the soul won't suddenly be hurt because i stopped my first and they just felt the shockwave.

Also the soul thing is a supporting argument to the kaioshin one being seperated, it wouldn't stand on it's own cause it can be handwaved but combined with the Kaioshin realm it show a clear pattern to how the destruction is working and what it affect and doesn't affect.

Also no, it was never established that U7 didn't qualify for low 2-C, it has been agreed for a very long time on this site that all 12 universe have their own space-time, you can't just decide it's not the case out of nowhere.

Neither space-time nor matter were ever mentionned in the dialogue and no one ever said they were so nothing has been debunked on that front either, what was debunked was the 'they only mean it would destroy the matter inside the universe'.

And yes, it affecting non physical stuff matters because it remove litteraly the only other way to interpret the feat as not low 2-C, because with it affecting non-physical stuff and crossing over to places that are purely linked through the space time continuum, it invalid any 'it would only destroy the matter inside the universe' interpretation of the characters's statement while also supporting that what is being affected and in risk of being destroyed is the space-time continuum.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Alright, let's see how this goes

 

[Giygas3]

"It's just been established that Universe 7 does not fit the requirements for Low 2-C size (R^4)"

And what was the reasoning for this?

 

[PowerToScale]

Anymore 'Against' users? Also do I remove the soul/non-physical interaction part? I am going to hit the bed after this, it's already 3:44am

 

[Ted_Ed]

The waves came from their punches. Seriously.

 

[Akreious]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.

 

[Giygas3]

Well, I'm neutral on the matter.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Giygas

Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

 

[Akreious]

@Giygas

Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

Which isbeibg contested right at this moment?

 

[Antvasima]

Me, DarkDragonMedeus, and Ultima Reality also oppose this revision, not just Sera.

 

[Akreious]

Which is being contested right at this moment?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

This is a waste of time.

 

[Giygas3]

@Sera Well, maybe the confusion comes from me not knowing what you mean by R^4. What's that?

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

You guys are pretty tenacious. That at least I respect. Albeit annoyed, but respect

 

[Sera_EX]

Pritti, ShadowWarrior1999, and Yumi-tan also disagree.

@Akreious

It shouldn't be. It's mathematically proven. All the realms you add only add to 3D. It doesn't reach 4D.

 

[Dragomer]

@Giygas
Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

And once again, each of the 12 universe have their own space time continuum, it has been discussed numerous time and every single time it has been ruled that U7 is it's own space time continuum.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.

It is not a strong argument.

The crux argument of the Low 2-C is destroying something spatially separate like the Kai realm - akin to a Pocket Realm and the universe enough to prove Low 2-C from this the tiering system Low 2-C: This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one.?

It looks the feat could be a range feat so I see what Andytrenom and Ultima meant about range. I will change my view to neutral now since this feat is likely a range feat from Occam's Razor.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's fantasy. We call this "magic-thinking". That's all it is. As Ultima explained you don't reach 4D by spreading across it and affecting only 3-D things.

Think Planet Earth. Every country being destroyed =/= 5-B. There's still the oceans and such to consider.

 

[Godhand1999]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.

So Akreious.

I have just stated in the last thread that even IF they interacted with souls? That would be NPI and it'll only be 3-A because it was still destroying everything within the universe. The Afterlife resides in Universe 7, nowhere else. However, to counter your argument anyway? They never interacted with souls in their fight. Find me evidence that Goku and Beerus interacted with souls in their battle and also find me evidence for it affecting space/time. If you can't do this, then you're arguing for nothing.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Again with the "non-physical" argument? This was already addressed multiple times in the previous thread, both by me and by other users. Also, to answer this:

And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

The shockwaves of their attacks were reaching into said realms, thus making it a feat of range. It's as simple as that. Space-Time doesn't have to be involved in any way, and it is up to you to prove it has to. You all are basically pulling a reversal of the burden of proof and taking your arguments as already being valid from the start without any elaboration, from what I've seen.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree Ant, this should be closed.

 

[Joshku1788]

Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

 

[Dragomer]

Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.

It is not a strong argument.
The crux argument of the Low 2-C is destroying something spatially separate like the Kai realm - akin to a Pocket Realm and the universe enough to prove Low 2-C from this the tiering system Low 2-C: This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one.?

It looks the feat could be a range feat so I see what Andytrenom and Ultima meant about range. I will change my view to neutral now since this feat is likely a range feat from Occam's Razor.

It's not meant to be one, it's a supporting argument.

No, nothing about Occam's razor point anyone toward interpreting that a purely physical destruction would spread through non-physical linked space without any explaining just because 'range' instead of the destruction being attributed to the common link between all these spaces : the space time continuum.

the simplest explaination is the most often the correct one and what is the simplest between 'all those realm are linked by one thing therefor it's that one thing that is being destroyed' and 'it's a purely physical destruction that is spreading to non-physicaly connected space while annihilating non-physical beings that the creator of said destruction can't affect himself because range' ?

 

[Godhand1999]

Again with the "non-physical" argument? This was already addressed multiple times in the previous thread, both by me and by other users. Also, to answer this:
And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

The shockwaves of their attacks were reaching into said realms, thus making it a feat of range. It's as simple as that. Space-Time doesn't have to be involved in any way, and it is up to you to prove it has to. You all are basically pulling a reversal of the burden of proof and taking your arguments as already being valid from the start without any elaboration, from what I've seen.

Agreed with Ultima Reality here.

 

[Sera_EX]

Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

It's best to clear it up though. Otherwise it'll just be repackaged as a new thread with different wording.