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The Battle of Gods (Part 2)
- Thread starter PowerToScale
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More people agreeing doesn't make the upgrade valid, that is a blatant appeal to popularity fallacy, especially when the lot of you supporting it have demonstrated to not even know what you're talking about.Dragomer said:
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@Dragomer
This does not fulfill the tiering system standards for the statistics that you want.
The staff are volunteer workers trying to help out for free, and recurrently get disrespected or harrassed anyway. That is the genuine truth of the issue. I have a thick skin, and have endured enormous amounts of abuse and overwork over the years, but not all staff members consider it worth the effort in the long run, and that is extremely bad for the wiki, so some respect and appreciation goes a long way to help.
And the word filter is there to protect everybody in the wiki from being banned by the Fandom staff, who are far stricter than we are in some respects.
This does not fulfill the tiering system standards for the statistics that you want.
The staff are volunteer workers trying to help out for free, and recurrently get disrespected or harrassed anyway. That is the genuine truth of the issue. I have a thick skin, and have endured enormous amounts of abuse and overwork over the years, but not all staff members consider it worth the effort in the long run, and that is extremely bad for the wiki, so some respect and appreciation goes a long way to help.
And the word filter is there to protect everybody in the wiki from being banned by the Fandom staff, who are far stricter than we are in some respects.
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^DragonEmperor23 said:
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Okay I'm a little lost with where everything went while I was gone, and I think the main points of the argument were kinda lost, would everyone be fine if I just reposted them here to make sure they're properly discussed?
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Alright, so:
Beerus and Goku feat = Has two 3-A statements and like four that could be either 3-A or Low 2-C (just, they'd destroy the universe) One of the 3-A statements says Goku and Beerus would only destroy what is inside of Universe 7.
This is contradicted by the fact that Goku and Beerus would destroy the Kaioshin realm, which is shown on Toriyama's Universe 7 map to be outside of Universe 7.
That means there's only one 3-A statement and four indeterminate ones.
Several feats in the later sagas would support the characters being Low 2-C instead of 3-A, such as:
- Golden Frieza survived Sidra's Hakai.
- Beerus wanted to fight SSG Goku as a rival, and therefore would logically be using an actual portion of his power against him and not be holding infinitely back.
- Base Goku and Vegeta surviving punches from Full Power Jiren.
- Vegeta being able to destroy the RoSaT, showing he can affect space-time (Note, just in case anyone tries to crucify me over this: not saying the RoSaT is a universe here).
- The GoDs were impressed with Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition match, which more than likely would not happen if he were infinitely beneath them.
- Kefla surpassed Ultra Instinct Omens 1 and 2 with finite multipliers.
- Belmod was getting scared over the Universe 7 Genkidama and Vegeta Blue's Final Flash.
There's more examples than that too. These feats would support BoG being Low 2-C since Goku in his base form surpassed SSG and the majority of the verse scale from this feat.
Beerus and Goku feat = Has two 3-A statements and like four that could be either 3-A or Low 2-C (just, they'd destroy the universe) One of the 3-A statements says Goku and Beerus would only destroy what is inside of Universe 7.
This is contradicted by the fact that Goku and Beerus would destroy the Kaioshin realm, which is shown on Toriyama's Universe 7 map to be outside of Universe 7.
That means there's only one 3-A statement and four indeterminate ones.
Several feats in the later sagas would support the characters being Low 2-C instead of 3-A, such as:
- Golden Frieza survived Sidra's Hakai.
- Beerus wanted to fight SSG Goku as a rival, and therefore would logically be using an actual portion of his power against him and not be holding infinitely back.
- Base Goku and Vegeta surviving punches from Full Power Jiren.
- Vegeta being able to destroy the RoSaT, showing he can affect space-time (Note, just in case anyone tries to crucify me over this: not saying the RoSaT is a universe here).
- The GoDs were impressed with Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition match, which more than likely would not happen if he were infinitely beneath them.
- Kefla surpassed Ultra Instinct Omens 1 and 2 with finite multipliers.
- Belmod was getting scared over the Universe 7 Genkidama and Vegeta Blue's Final Flash.
There's more examples than that too. These feats would support BoG being Low 2-C since Goku in his base form surpassed SSG and the majority of the verse scale from this feat.
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My logic for the NPI would be that they would have destroyed everything, which includes the ghosts and that even if it is being argued that the Kaioshin realm doesn't have a separate space time/isn't universe sized, they would still have the range to reach and destroy the entirety of another dimension that can not be accessed through physical means with the shockwaves of their attacks.Pritti said:
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I believe those are from the scenes in Kai where Buuhan was doing the Vice Shout.
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It's still referring to the other realms and vice shout targets space time which, as stated, lies between the Macrocosm and the World of the Kai.Sera EX said:
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Vice Shout was never stated to target space-time, it targets the dimensional walls of the realms within Universe 7.
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Dimensional walls in this context would mean time space. Dende said these walls separate the Macrocosm from the ROSAT, which is separated by time space.
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The ROSAT is just a small pocket dimension and at best it would be an outlier.
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Btw add me against it too
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I'm not talking about the feat, I'm talking about the range. "Walls between dimensions" separates the ROSAT and the universe (and yes I know it's earth sized). The ROSAT is disconnect from the universe by space and time. If these walls separate the ROSAT and the universe via space time, then the Kaioshin Realm from U7's space time as well because these walls were stated to be between the dimensions. Is plain and simple, right in front of your face, it's called putting two and two together.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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The ROSAT and the Kaioshin Realm are completely irrelevant to one another. This is a non-sequitir argument, and the argument for the Kaioshin Realm being separate from Universe 7 is "lol it's in a globe on a map."
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"If these walls separate the ROSAT and the universe via space time, then the Kaioshin Realm from U7's space time as well because these walls were stated to be between the dimensions."
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Just gonna put my own 2 cents.
Wasn't the Dragon Ball Universe stated to be a Macrocosm? The universe of DB containing a human world, but alongside a heaven and hell that is considered to be their own separate universes and in the BoG they claimed multiple times that their punches could destroy the entire universe.
If this also implies that the heaven and hell respectively also was gonna be destroyed if this continued wouldn't this presumably a possible 2-C feat?
I'm uncertain, but as of right now I'm neutral.
Wasn't the Dragon Ball Universe stated to be a Macrocosm? The universe of DB containing a human world, but alongside a heaven and hell that is considered to be their own separate universes and in the BoG they claimed multiple times that their punches could destroy the entire universe.
If this also implies that the heaven and hell respectively also was gonna be destroyed if this continued wouldn't this presumably a possible 2-C feat?
I'm uncertain, but as of right now I'm neutral.
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It's on both of the maps created by the Author himself and goes uncontradicted by current interpretations and canon? Further details from Daizenshuu says that you flat out can't use physical travel to get there?ShadowWarrior1999 said:
"If this also implies that the heaven and hell respectively also was gonna be destroyed if this continued wouldn't this presumably a possible 2-C feat?
I'm uncertain, but as of right now I'm neutral."
That was Option 2 of the first thread which was rejected since pretty much everybody agrees it's all tied together in terms of Time, just separate Spaces.
We're arguing whether or not the destruction of the Universe is Low 2-C since to reach specific parts of the Universe, you cannot use physical travel (Which 3-A certainly is, seeing as it's exclusively physical in nature)
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Okay, you bring up the Daizenshuu but here's one problem with that.Akreious said:
The Daizenshuu literally states that the Kaioshin Realm is made up of a giant crystalline sphere, which makes it undebataly not a space-time continuum. With that being said, there's no reason to assume it's in a separate space-time from Universe 7 and thus, the Battle of Gods feat only amounts to being 3-A.
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"The Daizenshuu literally states that the Kaioshin Realm is made up of a giant crystalline sphere, which makes it undebataly not a space-time continuum."
The Daizenshuu scan you posted says physical travel between the two is impossible and even if it's made up of a Giant Crystalline Sphere, your scan clearly shows that it orbits around the Macrocosm. It is not connected to it.
Plus "Crystalline Sphere" is ambiguous as all hell. It can be made of Magic Mumbo Jumbo for all we know.
" With that being said, there's no reason to assume it's in a separate space-time from Universe 7 and thus, the Battle of Gods feat only amounts to being 3-A."
... No? How the heck does it not being a Separate Space-Time make the feat only 3-A? If it were a separate Space-Time then the feat would be 2-C, not Low 2-C that we're arguing right now.
The Daizenshuu scan you posted says physical travel between the two is impossible and even if it's made up of a Giant Crystalline Sphere, your scan clearly shows that it orbits around the Macrocosm. It is not connected to it.
Plus "Crystalline Sphere" is ambiguous as all hell. It can be made of Magic Mumbo Jumbo for all we know.
" With that being said, there's no reason to assume it's in a separate space-time from Universe 7 and thus, the Battle of Gods feat only amounts to being 3-A."
... No? How the heck does it not being a Separate Space-Time make the feat only 3-A? If it were a separate Space-Time then the feat would be 2-C, not Low 2-C that we're arguing right now.
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You wanna know something funny? The timelines in DB Xenoverse are made of crystalline structures lmao.
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Oh, yeah, you're right lol.
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@Akreious I can't physically travel through a wall, so not being able to physically travel to the Kaioshin Realm isn't relevant.
"Magic mumbo jumbo" still isn't a space-time continuum now is it?
The point is, if the Kaioshin Realm is still within the same space-time continuum as the macrocosm then the feat being tier 2 is bunk, and the Kaioshin Realm is something that's not even worth mentioning.
"Magic mumbo jumbo" still isn't a space-time continuum now is it?
The point is, if the Kaioshin Realm is still within the same space-time continuum as the macrocosm then the feat being tier 2 is bunk, and the Kaioshin Realm is something that's not even worth mentioning.
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"@Akreious I can't physically travel through a wall, so not being able to physically travel to the Kaioshin Realm isn't relevant."
Yes you can. All you need to do is go fast enough and hard enough. It's not impossible to travel through a wall.
""Magic mumbo jumbo" still isn't a space-time continuum now is it?"
Refer to the above where Crystalline Structures are treated as full-fledged Timelines in Xenoverse and Heroes, so the precident is there.
"The point is, if the Kaioshin Realm is still within the same space-time continuum as the macrocosm then the feat being tier 2 is bunk"
... Wot? No? There's still the whole problem where their "3-A" feat was going to destroy the afterlife in it's entirety. If they don't get Low 2-C, we will have to add NPI to their profiles for being able to destroy the entire afterlife then.
Also that isn't the only argument in the OP for Tier 2, why are you saying as if "debunking" a single point somehow invalidates everything else?
"and the Kaioshin Realm is something that's not even worth mentioning."
Why? Because you said so?
Yes you can. All you need to do is go fast enough and hard enough. It's not impossible to travel through a wall.
""Magic mumbo jumbo" still isn't a space-time continuum now is it?"
Refer to the above where Crystalline Structures are treated as full-fledged Timelines in Xenoverse and Heroes, so the precident is there.
"The point is, if the Kaioshin Realm is still within the same space-time continuum as the macrocosm then the feat being tier 2 is bunk"
... Wot? No? There's still the whole problem where their "3-A" feat was going to destroy the afterlife in it's entirety. If they don't get Low 2-C, we will have to add NPI to their profiles for being able to destroy the entire afterlife then.
Also that isn't the only argument in the OP for Tier 2, why are you saying as if "debunking" a single point somehow invalidates everything else?
"and the Kaioshin Realm is something that's not even worth mentioning."
Why? Because you said so?
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I'm still in agreement with what I've been saying previously.
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Medeus, what are your thoughts on the characters getting NPI for being able to destroy the afterlife?
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DragonEmperor23
I Think it has to be direct or implied that they have the ability otherwise we just start using subjective merits to judge things.
Saying goku should have NPI cause he can destroy the afterlife is like saying i should be city level cause i could knock down a water tower
Beerus already destroyed dead souls in the arale episode of dbs
I Think it has to be direct or implied that they have the ability otherwise we just start using subjective merits to judge things.
Saying goku should have NPI cause he can destroy the afterlife is like saying i should be city level cause i could knock down a water tower
Beerus already destroyed dead souls in the arale episode of dbs
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I'm talking about via shockwaves and not Hakai.
This is what Medeus said on the last thread.
"I'm just going to point out some things. I agree that the current ratings should remain the same; at least for the time being. First of all, it's obvious the mortal Universe and the Afterlife are in the same timeline. And the Kaioshin Realm, it appears outside both the afterlife and the Mortal Universe, but it's still just another body of space as far as we know. I'm not saying it's impossible for it to have it's own flow of time, but that I don't think there's actually proof of it. Only the RoSaT is the only part that has its own timeline. But even then, it's more like a pocket reality with a Space-Time Anomaly rather than a Universe.
To quote AKM Sama
The cosmology is the same for all of DB regardless of it being from anime or manga. The representation could be inconsistent at times but it's still the one that Toriyama drew. However, I'm not interested in this debate anymore.
I mean there was a huge debate between several parties including Matt and SSJRyu about how we should treat the DB universe, and it was decided to treat the whole universe as one space-time continuum. There were arguments from both sides that looked convincing but that's just how it was decided to be treated.
And from that, Universe 7 was decided to be a Space-Time Continuum. There's still debate whether we should treat Universe 6 and stuff and wouldn't mind if all the Angels got downgraded back to Low 2-C scaling from Infinite Zamasu again. But there's definitely proof that alternate timelines exist and that Zeno can "Destroy all existence" so he's 2-C. As when Beerus hakai'd Zamasu, that technically became a different timeline. Because the Goku Black game from the what if timeline if Beerus and Whis hadn't throttled Zamasu's assassination. But all the current 3-A characters should remain 3-A, but Kaioshin realm can serve as further proof that the cast is far above baseline 3-A. "
This is what Medeus said on the last thread.
"I'm just going to point out some things. I agree that the current ratings should remain the same; at least for the time being. First of all, it's obvious the mortal Universe and the Afterlife are in the same timeline. And the Kaioshin Realm, it appears outside both the afterlife and the Mortal Universe, but it's still just another body of space as far as we know. I'm not saying it's impossible for it to have it's own flow of time, but that I don't think there's actually proof of it. Only the RoSaT is the only part that has its own timeline. But even then, it's more like a pocket reality with a Space-Time Anomaly rather than a Universe.
To quote AKM Sama
The cosmology is the same for all of DB regardless of it being from anime or manga. The representation could be inconsistent at times but it's still the one that Toriyama drew. However, I'm not interested in this debate anymore.
I mean there was a huge debate between several parties including Matt and SSJRyu about how we should treat the DB universe, and it was decided to treat the whole universe as one space-time continuum. There were arguments from both sides that looked convincing but that's just how it was decided to be treated.
And from that, Universe 7 was decided to be a Space-Time Continuum. There's still debate whether we should treat Universe 6 and stuff and wouldn't mind if all the Angels got downgraded back to Low 2-C scaling from Infinite Zamasu again. But there's definitely proof that alternate timelines exist and that Zeno can "Destroy all existence" so he's 2-C. As when Beerus hakai'd Zamasu, that technically became a different timeline. Because the Goku Black game from the what if timeline if Beerus and Whis hadn't throttled Zamasu's assassination. But all the current 3-A characters should remain 3-A, but Kaioshin realm can serve as further proof that the cast is far above baseline 3-A. "
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I'm neutral on NPI, but I think there were arguments against that. It's still an AP feat, but sometimes destroying souls via destroying the universe can be interpreted as a chain reaction that causes soul destruction rather than NPI.
And Kaioshin Realm doesn't have proof of being an entire Space-Time continuum as Ultima and Sera have been saying.
And Kaioshin Realm doesn't have proof of being an entire Space-Time continuum as Ultima and Sera have been saying.
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