The Battle of Gods (Part 2)

[AshenCrow777]

I disagree with the upgrade since there's no actual substantial proof that would back up what is claimed here

 

[Dragomer]

Again with the "non-physical" argument? This was already addressed multiple times in the previous thread, both by me and by other users. Also, to answer this:
And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

The shockwaves of their attacks were reaching into said realms, thus making it a feat of range. It's as simple as that. Space-Time doesn't have to be involved in any way, and it is up to you to prove it has to. You all are basically pulling a reversal of the burden of proof and taking your arguments as already being valid from the start without any elaboration, from what I've seen.

And i responded to them so i should be the one going 'again with the physical destruction ?'.

And how would it reach said places if not through space-time ? you can't even reach those places without warp or teleportaion, how would a mere shockwave just reach it being going far ?

How can it be a range feat when it's directly said that you can't reach it without space means ? if you don't have warp, that Whis litteraly use to time travel in the Black Saga or teleportation that Shin use to go to other universes, you can't reach it, it's not a matter of it being far away, hell it can't even be far away because there isn't even space between the kaioshin realm and the universe, there is litteraly nothing.

I don't see how 'the kaioshin realm is not physicaly connected' need any elaboration once i'v shown both maps that portray it clearly.

And no, i'm reversing nothing, there is two options, i made my case for one and it's up to those disagreeing to make their own case afterward, otherwise it's not arguing, it's basicaly just begging someone to accept what you say.

 

[Dragomer]

I disagree with the upgrade since there's no actual substantial proof that would back up what is claimed here

Read the previous thread, both of Toriyama maps prove that the Kaioshin realm is seperated.

 

[Dragomer]

Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.

 

[Omegas03]

Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

I don't like that, I mean, the supporters still have arguments to offer and a revision shouldn't be closed like that unless it's 100% conclusive. Just my two cents, I am kinda neutral on this Btw.

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[Antvasima]

It's best to clear it up though. Otherwise it'll just be repackaged as a new thread with different wording.

Okay then.

 

[Sera_EX]

Shockwaves traveling across 4D to destroy many spatially disconnected 3-D worlds is not Low 2-C. There's no evidence the fourth dimension was threatened.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Read the previous thread, both of Toriyama maps prove that the Kaioshin realm is seperated.

I did and everything that the supporters said were shut down hard I'm not even going to sugar coat it, but you do not win debates just by listing people that agrees with you.

If you do not have facts or evidence, no amount of support is gonna make that kind of upgrade pass, I can even quote the last thread if you want.

And for a big list of supporters I see very little of them actually supporting here more than half of them are missing.

But whatever unless there's clear proof and evidence I oppose this upgrade.

 

[Joshku1788]

What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.


Yup...

 

[Antvasima]

What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.

The staff have mostly been chosen largely because of their comparatively high abilities to stay unbiased and rational during evaluations, even if they really like a certain verse.

Part of their task in this wiki is to try to evaluate the suggestions and arguments of regular members as well as they can, and then clear or reject revisions.

This is an absolute necessity for keeping our character statistics at least somewhat reliable, and not simply rated by complete anarchy, for example by finding a large group of fans who all gang up to push for unreasonable upgrades en masse.

 

[Godhand1999]

Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

 

[Dragomer]

Shockwaves traveling across 4D to destroy many spatially disconnected 3-D worlds is not Low 2-C. There's no evidence the fourth dimension was threatened.

Yes, it is, because it mean that what is being destroyed is the space time, the shockwave didn't freaking surf on the space time for no reason when it would have been easier to just say it only affected the mortal universe of what the writers wanted to portray was a 3-A feat.

Yeah, no evidence except you just admitting that the shockwave is effecting the space-time continuum and your version still not explaining how the souls get destroyed.

Sorry but now that it's proven that the shockwave HAS to effect time space, to the point even you can't deny it, to do what it did and the already established impossibility of a purely material destruction, it once again just leave low 2-C as a possibility.

Since Occam's razor is has been brough up before, that's clearly what Occam's razor point to : what the shockwave was destroying is the space time continuum, which it need to be able to affect to begin with to do any of the stuff it did, rather than surfing on the space time continuum just to material destroy stuff that isn't even material (like souls).

 

[Sera_EX]

Also, as Pritti and Yumi already explained with facts and evidence. The characters even say that the entire cosmos (cosmos, not time-space) was threatened.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah this has my disagreement as well.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Gotta be honest here, and this is from one of the original people to push for Episode 12 being legit back in 2015, I disagree with the CRT and agree with Sera and co

 

[Dragomer]

What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.

The staff have mostly been chosen because of their comparatively high abilities to stay unbiased and rational during evaluations, even if they really like a certain verse.
Part of their task in this wiki is to try to evaluate the suggestions and arguments of regular members as well as they can, and then clear or reject revisions.

This is an absolute necessity for keeping our character statistics at least somewhat reliable, and not simply rated by, for example, finding a large group of fans who all gang up to push for unreasonable upgrades en masse.

We both know that a large ammount of people wouldn't call quite a few staff members 'unbiased' and 'rational' and at least one staff members is known to start shit and bait people.

Yeah, much better for it to simply be rated by a small group of people who all know each others and get first and final say on everything, as if it's more reliable and doesn't just put the whole thing in its own bubble.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Dragomer

You didn't, my second post was a response to your arguments, which basically revolve around "The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm are not physical and were going to be destroyed by Goku and Beerus. 3-A involves physical destruction. Therefore their feat cannot be 3-A", which is straight up wrong for reasons I've already made clear time and time again: 3-A doesn't need to involve physical destruction in the first place, and has more to do with the size of the area which you are affecting, and the very same principle applies to Low 2-C and ever tier that comes after it.

Again, it can perfectly be considered a range feat which was demonstrated in this scene, it's far less of a stretch than saying that the shockwaves were going to destroy space-time itself or something like that. Even then, this argument just comes off as self-defeating, since you are basically saying Goku and Beerus can't affect the whole space-time continuum with their attacks here, yet this whole thread is about upgrading them to Low 2-C based on their feat supposedly affecting... the whole space-time continuum due to the existence of the other realms. Do you see the disconnect here?

You are, though. What this thread is doing consists of presenting two options regarding the feat, dismissing one of them as automatically invalid (even though several users disagree with it) and pushing the other one as the only possible take on the scene, then stating the people disagreeing with such have to prove it is invalid, when it should be the contrary: You should be the done arguing for its validity, while the statistics present in the pages themselves are assumed to be in the right.

 

[Dragomer]

Also, as Pritti and Yumi already explained with facts and evidence. The characters even say that the entire cosmos (cosmos, not time-space) was threatened.

They didn't explain, they presented their own stuff and i responded to it, you can't just take an argument you like and declare it true just because you didn't like the counter argument.

The characters said the world and the universe was threatened too, it doesn't need to specificaly say the space time continuum was threatened otherwise, you've got a much bigger revision on your hand cause a shit lot of low 2-C are getting downgraded.

And that litteraly doesn't change any of my point.

 

[Pritti]

Also, as Pritti and Yumi already explained with facts and evidence. The characters even say that the entire cosmos (cosmos, not time-space) was threatened.

Oh dear, do we need another linguistics lesson?

 

[Sera_EX]

@Dragomer

No you didn't, their argument was at the end of the thread and it got closed. How did you respond to Yumi when her comment was the 500th and final reply?

 

[Joshku1788]

Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.

 

[Pritti]

@Dragomer

Oh, but I did. They never say time-space was being threatened. In order for Zenuchuu statements to be considered Low 2-C there needs to be a statement regarding either Jikan (time) or Jikuu (time-space). You have provided no evidence for that.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer
You didn't, my second post was a response to your arguments, which basically revolve around "The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm are not physical and were going to be destroyed by Goku and Beerus. 3-A involves physical destruction. Therefore their feat cannot be 3-A", which is straight up wrong for reasons I've already made clear time and time again: 3-A doesn't need to involve physical destruction in the first place, and has more to do with the size of the area which you are affecting, and the very same principle applies to Low 2-C and ever tier that comes after it.

Again, it can perfectly be considered a range feat which was demonstrated in this scene, it's far less of a stretch than saying that the shockwaves were going to destroy space-time itself or something like that. Even then, this argument just comes off as self-defeating, since you are basically saying Goku and Beerus can't affect the whole space-time continuum with their attacks here, yet this whole thread is about upgrading them to Low 2-C based on their feat supposedly affecting... the whole space-time continuum due to the existence of the other realms. Do you see the disconnect here?

You are, though. What this thread is doing consists of presenting two options regarding the feat, dismissing one of them as automatically invalid (even though several users disagree with it) and pushing the other one as the only possible take on the scene, then stating the people disagreeing with such have to prove it is invalid, when it should be the contrary: You should be the done arguing for its validity, while the statistics present in the pages themselves are assumed to be in the right.

And i'm telling you that it isn't wrong, as i'v litteraly copy pasted how Low 2-C is defined on the tier page, Low 2-C is destroying 1 space time, the BOG feat is destroying one universe, leaving the question of HOW they are destroying the universe and it can only be by destroying the space time since it need to affect space time to reach the kaioshin realm and destroy the souls.

No, it can't be, you can't reach the kaioshin realm through pure distance, that's not how it works.

No, it's not self defeating and it isn't based on just their existence, it's based on the fact that the only thing linking all of them is space time, which mean the shockwave who did reach them had to affect the space time, which make the low 2-C option even more likely given that even the lowest interpretation still has the shockwave affecting space time.

You're the one not seeing the disconnect : how can it be range if freaking distance aren't involved ? there is no distance without space.

No, i am not because i explained continuously around the middle of the previous thread how and why the first option was invalid and only started presenting the first one as false once everyone stopped contesting it and even Sera admitted that non-physical realm were involved, you can't have purely physical stuff while involving non-physical stuff, that's illogical.

I argued for it's validity for a long time and people stopped going against it and even accepted it so i consider it accepted, the destruction can't be physical, otherwise physicaly non-connected realm and non-physical realm wouldn't be affected.

 

[Godhand1999]

Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.


That doesn't mean they are universe sized Josh.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer
Oh, but I did. They never say time-space was being threatened. In order for Zenuchuu statements to be considered Low 2-C there needs to be a statement regarding either Jikan (time) or Jikuu (time-space). You have provided no evidence for that.

I never said they said the space time continuum was being threatened, i said that they said the universe was being threatened and mentionned in passing that going by a blog that had a screen shot of a japanese dictionary, it also fit nicely with the definition of universe in the japanese dictionary.

It was litteraly just 'and it happen to fit nicely with the japanese dictionary of universe' or something like that at the end of my one of my argument, it wasn't even it's own argument, it being valid or not in the end has nothing to do with any other arguments, that was just a passing mention to a blog post i saw.

Also you didn't provide any proof of your own, people, me included just aren't questioning what you said because we don't speak japanese but i have no idea who between you and that old blog post could be right, at least the blog post had a screen shot instead of just writing the japanese characters.

 

[Yumi-tan]

They never say time-space was being threatened. In order for Zenuchuu statements to be considered Low 2-C there needs to be a statement regarding either Jikan (time) or Jikuu (time-space). You have provided no evidence for that

Exactly. Dragon Ball like any other Japanese-based series makes difference between cosmos and time-space. In the case of Dragon Ball, there are always statements of jikan/time or jikuu/time-space to provide context that time is involved.

 

[Sera_EX]

If the space time continuum wasn't threatened it's not a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

As I posted on the earlier Thread I'm in full agreement with Sera.

also why are we using guidebooks from the 1990's that have already had numerous retcons since then.

 

[Dragomer]

If the space time continuum wasn't threatened it's not a Low 2-C feat.

And what else would be destroyed in an universal destruction that litteraly has to go through the space time continuum to affect some of the space it need to destroy while needing to destroy space time to kill some of the beings it would kill (the souls) ?

Just because they don't say directly 'the space time is going to be destroyed' doesn't invalid it from being low 2-C, that's pure nonsense, they already said the universe would be destroyed, which is more natural and more people would recognise.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I wonder what the Chozenshuu has to say for this stuff

 

[Pritti]

And I didn't say that you said they said that (wew, what a mouthful). I'm saying that the best statement you have is "entire universe" or "zenuchuu" and in order for that statement to be considered Low 2-C, there needs to be a context clue within the statement or another statement that says that time or time-space was being affected.

 

[Sera_EX]

The Chouzenshuu is just a slightly updated and rereleased Daizenshuu. But even the Chouzenshuu was released years before Super first aired.

 

[Yumi-tan]

Only "all of existence" universal statements are Low 2-C by default, not entire cosmos statements.

 

[DMB_1]

This is what I asked in the first thread:

Basically, from what i can understand, the Supporters of the upgrade's agrument can be summed up to:
"The feat would be 3-A if they were destroying just all of the Universe's matter. However since they were actually going to destroy the strucutre of the entire macrocosm, including reams separated from the main thing, the feat should be a Low 2-C one, as space-time is likely either a part of the structure, if not even what makes up the strucutre itself by sheer common sense"

Right?
So basically, if they were really going to destroy the whole thing, wether space-time is part of the structure or not.

I'm sorry if I sound so oblivious, but I prefer simplified things.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Well guess that's that I mean the same thing was said last thread but I guess some people just decided to ignore and bull rush in order to get the upgrade.

And honestly I 100% trust Pritti and Yumi-tan I'm not Japanese and I know even less their calligraphy and way to use phrase while providing contexts.

But all of this was already addressed in the past thread so I don't see why this is going on any longer when again like Yumi-tan said when the DBverse wants to make a distinction in what they are trying show they actually do but in this thread nothing here proved anything at all because they didn't say anything with what you guys are trying to imply Dragomer.

 

[Akreious]

So what the against people are saying that the waves magically get NPI after ''surfing time itself'' to reach their dimension before destroying them? Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds?

 

[Sera_EX]

It's not ludicrous at all. For one you're using a strawman and are completely misrepresenting our arguments.

 

[Jinsye]

Disagree FRA, disagreement argument seems to be more reasonable to me and the people who are arguing know their dimensional stuff.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

So what the against people are saying that the waves magically get NPI after surfing time itself to reach their dimension before destroying them? Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds?

"Surfing time."

No, they aren't separate space-times, you don't have to destroy space-time to affect something that is in the same space-time.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Assuming that the Low 2-C upgrade doesn't go through, would the characters receive NPI via being able to destroy ghosts with their shockwaves and range upgrades for being able to reach other dimensions with them? If I'm understanding what the Counter arguments are for the proposed Low 2-C feats correctly.