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Thanos (With the Heart of The Universe) Downgrade
- Thread starter Drio_The_God
- Start date
- Status
- 230
- 82
- Thread starter
- #42
First of all, I know what I’m doing and what I’m saying if you prove me wrong doesn’t mean that i am not knowledge on the verse. Second of all this is my first downgrade thread and you as a Marvel supporter shouldn’t complain about Downgrade Threads if you are the supporter of the verse and you are responding to these yourself.
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They were equal back in the day, then post retcon made him more powerful (for example, F4 Annual 27), and then Hickman's retcon even more powerful.
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I did like the book it was okay I did learn little about knull and the void.
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No offence, but you can't say if you haven't at the very least read other works or Starlin anr his Thanos stuff which heavily ties into this. Old and new alike.
I am not a supporter, I just know the verse. I am neutral towards the verse. And I am fine with downgrades, but this one doesn't make much sense.
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Didn't sentry reality warp/molecular manipulate pre retconned molecule man?
And thus defeated him.
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No, that was post retcon MM and who was heavily weakened. There is tons of context that came before the run, but there is a lot present in the main comic too.
By post retcon, I mean the second retcon, not the third.
By post retcon, I mean the second retcon, not the third.
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- Thread starter
- #49
I’m not the only one who says this there are many more people who say the exact same thing as me and they have read the comic in it’s entirety.
It actually does, but that’s your opinion.
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I have seen those ones on comic vine and quora and elsewhere too many times. They always bring up "he only destroyed one universe", and called it a "debunked. End of story".
I have read many of those responses and most are pretty lacking.
No one says Thanos is omnipotent or boundless, but his tier 1 is very legit. And I honestly if you read all the relevant comics and still feel that way, then I have no idea what to say to that
I have read many of those responses and most are pretty lacking.
No one says Thanos is omnipotent or boundless, but his tier 1 is very legit. And I honestly if you read all the relevant comics and still feel that way, then I have no idea what to say to that
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I don't think Impress cares for tier 1 marvel that much. But Efi might, so someone should get him. Or Ant.
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I will ping Impress tho, let's see what she says
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- #55
Marvel Comics seriously needs more supporters.
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Many of the knowledgeable people left.
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Ok then.
Many OG supporters aren't available again man and it's sad.
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2 problems, I am on the phone and I have a tpb, so taking pics and posting them gonna take too longer. So, let's do this differently.
#4:
#6, in order:
I rest my case, if you still believe he should be downgraded... Well, feel free to do so.
#4:
- TLT gathers the entire pantheons of Gods, demons, and cosmic beings in one place to judge Thanos
- Thanos himself talks that his power can rival that of Almighty, the one with greater, the Supreme One whom TLT serves.
- Next two pages, Thanos considers Infinity Gauntlet, which is far above the likes of Eternity and his like, insignificant in comparison.
- Next page, Thanos EXPLICITLY explains how he is beyond the Omni reality and higher Dimensions. He wasn't just talking universal, he was TALKING EVERYTHING MARVEL COMICS ever. Including the writer, which was expanding upon recently and just a year after this comic. They exists in an extremely higher plane of existence called the House of Ideas, and perhaps even transcends it. House of Ideas view everything else as fiction in Marvel Universe as fiction. Once again, universe here means literally everything. Albeit, it's somewhat possible that it doesn't transcends Oblivion, but that's a story for another time.
- From this comic, it seems that Thanos even knows and could influence our very world.
- The two pages after that talks about how something is wrong with the universe, and once again, it means all there is. And he is talking about plot/story and how the authors control it. Note: others could possibly perceive this as something different, but to me, this is how it seems from how previous and next few pages went.
- In the next page, Thanos talks about how LESSER the likes of Tribunal and the rest of creation is.
- Few pages after that, (page 142 in the chapter and possibly page 11/12 in the main comic), Thanos says how eternity can sense the greater power - almighty's (the one who stands above all else, including TLT) power is now within Thanos and how he has replaced the old almighty. "Author of all that will be"
- Two pages later, he destroys Eternity. He literally makes him vanish into nothingness. And then TLT shows up.
- TLT comes himself and bring in literally everyone else he could bring with him, which included the ENTIRE RACE OF CELESTIALS. - as mentioned explicitly in issue 4.
#6, in order:
- 3rd page, he destroys a Celestial
- Fourth page, he tanks some attacks from the real TLT and the rest of cosmic pantheons.
- Sixth/seventh page, Thanos absorbs TLT, ETERNITY and Infinity. And literally everyone else, which includes Choas, Order, Entire race of Celestials and more.
- Thanos already destroyed a universal Eternity, so you know what this means, right?
- Two pages afterwards, he says how everything had been returned to zero, and Oblivion was basically all there was.
- In the same page, Thanos begins to realise that maybe he wasn't above whoever was controlling the entire omniverse - aka the author. He was doing as the author had forced him to do.
- In #5, he said he was an idea inside the mind of the author, which is fine, but he didn't have control over the authors and the plot which is why he was forced to do this.
- The survival of Adam Warlock is the only reason which makes you say Thanos should be 1-C... But why? Adam Warlock is not bound by time or space, life or death. He is an anomaly in the Marvel Universe. The reason he survived is because he was in oblivion or rather outside of everything essentially which could be affected by Thanos. I recommend reading Infinity Abyss and some of the other stuff Warlock appeared around that time to get a better picture about it.
- Additionally, Aletza is the custodian of the entire multiverse, and look at what Warlock says.
- Anyway, pay attention to the words of Warlock very closely, extremely closely. It seems he has somewhat understanding of what Thanos was talking about earlier, higher gods - writers. They are the ones who possibly allowed him to survive because that's what the plot requires. Again, my interpretation from the pages before and after. I could be wrong about this very Statement, but the rest stands.
- And the reason Mistress Death survived is because she, in her own way, transcends eternity and infinity and everything within it. Albeit by a small degree. And if you look at the next page, she too vanishes, implying many things. To my interpretation, she too died. She was saved for just one moment.
- Last few pages, Adam Warlock says that everything is restored and no one remembers the ancient Egyptian dude. By that, he implies that not even higher beings and such can recall his existence. It proves once again, Thanos in fact destroyed all there was in Marvel Universe, sans Oblivion and the House of Ideas/Writers, and then he recreated all.
I rest my case, if you still believe he should be downgraded... Well, feel free to do so.
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Been a while since I read this comic, so it was nice to revisit it. Really fun book
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IG>>>>>Eternity?
Everything seems to make sense except how does death die
comics are weird.
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Only universal eternity, yes.
Well, it is possible with existence erasure and conceptual manipulation. But yes, it is quite interesting
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@Ultima_Reality does high tier Marvel shit
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Just a few brief points:
M-Bodies are a concept from the early 1990s that the late Mark Gruenwald introduced during his Quasar run to explain away when cosmic entities get defeated. They have seemingly been abandoned and forgotten in later years.
Jim Starlin's Marvel cosmology is technically not compatible with the more extreme versions. He is responsible for concepts such as Eternity and Infinity not having infinite power, the Infinity Gauntlet and Eternity fighting at full power only destroying a few galaxies at most, there being a Living Tribunal in every universe, and the Heart of the Universe only having authority over just that, a single universe. In addition, he has treated the multiverse as just a collection of universes, rather than any hierarchy of higher infinities.
However, since we have lumped together Marvel cosmology into a single whole, regardless of conflicts between writers and eras, in lack of better options, Thanos statistics with the Infinity Gauntlet, the Heart of the Universe, and the cosmic regulator, are currently likely extremely exaggerated and unreliable, again, in lack of better options, since we haven't figured out how to untangle the inherent mess of the cosmology.
M-Bodies are a concept from the early 1990s that the late Mark Gruenwald introduced during his Quasar run to explain away when cosmic entities get defeated. They have seemingly been abandoned and forgotten in later years.
Jim Starlin's Marvel cosmology is technically not compatible with the more extreme versions. He is responsible for concepts such as Eternity and Infinity not having infinite power, the Infinity Gauntlet and Eternity fighting at full power only destroying a few galaxies at most, there being a Living Tribunal in every universe, and the Heart of the Universe only having authority over just that, a single universe. In addition, he has treated the multiverse as just a collection of universes, rather than any hierarchy of higher infinities.
However, since we have lumped together Marvel cosmology into a single whole, regardless of conflicts between writers and eras, in lack of better options, Thanos statistics with the Infinity Gauntlet, the Heart of the Universe, and the cosmic regulator, are currently likely extremely exaggerated and unreliable, again, in lack of better options, since we haven't figured out how to untangle the inherent mess of the cosmology.
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@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer
Would any of you be willing to help us out here?
Would any of you be willing to help us out here?
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- Thread starter
- #66
On a Off-Topic Note: This Gif made my day.
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Honestly, I see both sides of this issue. That being said, there's really no way to call it IMHO that leaves me entirely feeling comfortable. It could just be an M-Body, it could be real TLT. Starlin, IIRC, treats his stuff like this. There's the original Thanos when he first appeared in Marvel, there's Starlin's take & stories about him and, finally, there's what everyone else writes about him.
Starlin admits that he does what he wants, regardless of what everyone else does. That being said, as we've composited the cosmology and we've got no hardline standard to judge on how to disentangle everything and what we give more weight to that doesn't feel like we're just ignoring what we don't like.
Thanos' profile is going have to acknowledge the ambiguity here. I'd even go as far as to say his higher tiers may need have an "At least..., Possibly..." Due to our own standards regarding the matter, both the lower and higher interoperation of the HOTU are true from different points of view, with evidence for both sides.
That's what I think. Yes, it's a compromise.
Starlin admits that he does what he wants, regardless of what everyone else does. That being said, as we've composited the cosmology and we've got no hardline standard to judge on how to disentangle everything and what we give more weight to that doesn't feel like we're just ignoring what we don't like.
Thanos' profile is going have to acknowledge the ambiguity here. I'd even go as far as to say his higher tiers may need have an "At least..., Possibly..." Due to our own standards regarding the matter, both the lower and higher interoperation of the HOTU are true from different points of view, with evidence for both sides.
That's what I think. Yes, it's a compromise.
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Unless someone take it upon themselves to break apart the cosmology, we simply cannot change this rating. Or try to make upgrades.
As weird as it sounds, woulda been easier if someone had done that when the verse was new to the wiki.
As weird as it sounds, woulda been easier if someone had done that when the verse was new to the wiki.
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This could be a good idea.
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I still disagree with anything that isn't on his file atm. To me, his rating is very justified with what's shown in the story and the standards of the verse on this site
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- #73
You have made that clear multiple times. No need to continue be obsessed over it. I still think that it was just an Avatar due to what i wrote above. You can have your own opinion and that’s fine.
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I was replying to the at least possibly higher bit... Anyway, and the story itself said otherwise. The story + greater continuity surrounding the event > a single out of context page.
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- #75
It’s not out of context at all, in fact it’s the main reason why i made this thread, because it proves my point. Your only saying that it’s out of context because you don’t believe me, there is nothing wrong with my evidence.
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No offence, but there is everything wrong with the evidence... Read the story carefully again, examine the words and art carefully, and you will get your answer.
The M Body TLT is pretty much a fan fiction in this story, if anything.
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Isn't that how we scale characters here?
Can you prove this at least.
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If TLT has avatars then a thread should be made to apply that in his profile, even if it matters little in Marvel as a whole. That should have gone first before the downgrade in this thread, or with both topics one after another in the same thread.
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Ofcourse The Living Tribunal has Avatars, besides his profile is outdated, and misses alot of abilities that he actually uses but is never shown in the profile.
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You don’t make sense at all if it was The Living Tribunal, then Thanos would have had the power to recreate more then one universe like I already said. But he wasn’t able to do so because he was not powerful enough thus saying that TLT who got defeated was just an Avatar, because if it was the True Living Tribunal then Thanos would have no difficultly creating more then one Universe, but Thanos had even difficulty doing that.
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