Astral_Trinity439
He/Him- 533
- 179
Since the last thread was successful, lets go over a WN revision now, shall we
Please refrain from being toxic, and refrain from derailing the thread, we want a meaningful discussion here!
Now lets start with the thread, this will be quite long for some, so please bear with it
First, this thread, where Rimuru's Nonduality Type 1 and NEP1 got downgraded. But the OP didn't even try to bring the possible counter arguments and counter proof for it. The reason of the downgrade was that "Veldanava is not the Holy Spirit, so Rimuru transcending him isn't Nondual AND End of the World is not the End of Great Spirits".
The problem is with the latter part, from which most of the downgrade are originated, that if End of the World is the End of Great Spirits or not. And that will be proved in this thread [that it is].
Rimuru's NEP was also argued of not being actual NEP as it was just injecting energy, however, that has a specific context in-verse which was disregarded completely, even though it was already present in the General Concept Blog [WN]
Arguments from previous thread
Snip
Summary : As EOST[End of Space-Time] is not the End of Great Spirits, and thus neither the Dual Spirits, Rimuru loses his his Nonduality [Type 1]. Similarly, his reasoning for NEP is basically injecting energy into his Body, which is not NEP by itself, and thus should be removed.
In the old translation, it said "Until a new Great Spirit is born, erasing all", which we can see was obviously false. However, that doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the World, this "Cycle of Life and Death of Spirits" will end.
Now, how does this relate? Well, this Cycle is produced due to Spirits parting from the Original Masses of Energy, the Great Spirits, they than become impure which leads to them becoming monsters.
So to say, the reason why this cycle exists is because the Great Spirits exist. And as a result, the only plausible reason why this would stop at the End of the World, is if the Great Spirits are destroyed too. Because if the Great Spirits are not unaffected, this cycle, which is produced by them, will not be affected either.
Note that, this can't be something like "they just decided to stop the cycle by themselves" because the Great Spirits do not have any ego or will of their own, they are just Egoless masses of energy, "Pure energy" and a fully Conceptual Existence. So once again, the only plausible reasoning is that they too end at the End of the World.
Additional arguments are that the End of the World is when the World looses ALL of its Energy, where Great Spirits are literally made of Energy. So to say, if the World itself looses "All" of its energy, it would be logical to conclude that all the existences made of energy, which include the great spirits, will end.
So to say, the End of the World is still the End of Great Spirits, and all the abilities that Rimuru lost from it, including his Nonduality Type 1 and resistance to CM1, should be re-given.
______________________________________________________________
We already know from above that with End of Space-Time being what it is, Rimuru should be given back his Nonduality Type 1. However, lets add more context to this.
First off, the Duality of Light and Dark are not only Universal, as they existed before and hold over all of the World itself, but, they also derive all the other relations from them, such as the relation between Demon and Angels, Nonexistence and Existence, Regeneration and Destruction, Purify and Conceal and possibly more. That is to say, the Great Spirit of Light and Dark are the Origin that give birth to many more opposite relations. Additionally, the Great Spirits are what formed the World, they encompass the whole World, as they existed before it, the Light fills the World and the World is covered by Darkness, this shows that they are a general duality encompassing the whole verse on an entirely conceptual level, not specific to a universe or relation, the Ying and Yang Duality. I quote something that Glassman said
Furthermore, True Dragons are beings that possess both Light[Holy/Divine] and Dark[Demonic/Monster] Attributes at the same time, which is confirmed in both the Raw and by the translator separately. This means they exist in a state where they are both sides of the general duality at the same time, so to say, they are Nondual Type 2, and even if not Type 2, at least Type 1. Furthermore, I quote the Nonduality Page, because existing in a state of both sides of the duality is Nondual, as said in the definition on the page itself :
Note that, we treat being two states at the same time as a whole another state, as said in the definitions :
[Note : AND is a logical operator which denotes that both sides must be true at the same time, while NAND, its negation, says both sides must be false at the same time]
Logically, it'll be :
∧ = and/both at once
¬ = not/negation
A = Light/Yang
¬A = Darkness/Ying
A ∧ ¬A = True Dragons (they are both state are the same time)
¬ (A ∧ ¬A) = End of the World (Neither of the Great Spirits exist at the end of Space and Time)
(A ∧ ¬A) ∧ [¬ (A ∧ ¬A)] = Rimuru (Is both a True Dragon[3rd state], and at the same time, also survived at the End of Space-Time[5th state])
Thus, Rimuru's state cannot be defined by any logical combination[a combination of only two variables, A and ¬A, it can't be Neither of them OR it can't be both of them], and needs a combination of operators between two more operators [(A ∧ ¬A) ∧ [¬ (A ∧ ¬A)]] to be represented.
Mathematically, it'll be :
∧ = and/both at once
¬ = not/negation
1 = Light/Yang
0 = Darkness/Ying
1 ∧ 0 = True Dragons (they are both state are the same time)
¬ (1∧ 0) = End of the World (Neither of the Great Spirits exist at the end of Space and Time)
(1 ∧ 0) ∧ [¬ (1 ∧ 0)] = Rimuru (Is both a True Dragon[3rd state], and at the same time, also survived at the End of Space-Time[5th state])
Thus, Rimuru's state cannot be defined by any logical combination[a combination of only two variables, A and ¬A, it can't be Neither of them OR it can't be both of them], and needs a combination of operators between two more operators [(1 ∧ ¬0) ∧ [¬ (1 ∧ ¬0)]] to be represented.
Additionally, Rimuru is called a Transcendent God that transcends everything, so possibly Transduality Type 3
Conclusive :
However, once again, lets add more context, major source is this thread, which was unfortunately closed, even though it was accepted by majority, because it somewhat involved Great Spirits previously :
Turn Null is the Nonexistence which remains after even the Void and its Negative energy [Conventional Nonexistence] as well as the Positive Energy[Existence], disappear and are brought to 0[Turn Null].
HOWEVER, in case this the End of the World argument is considered vague, we can use this :
Rimuru can inject his body with Turn Null, under normal cases, that'll just be a stat amplification, however, we have the following context :
Turn Null is an energy :
Now, for the aspects :
We already know that Great Spirit of Sky is Information, which makes up everything, including Souls, Mind, and Skills. Additionally, Skills can also be turned to Energy. Concepts are also made out of Energy, stated again. Aspect Types :
Final Conclusive :
Please refrain from being toxic, and refrain from derailing the thread, we want a meaningful discussion here!
Now lets start with the thread, this will be quite long for some, so please bear with it
Introduction :
First, this thread, where Rimuru's Nonduality Type 1 and NEP1 got downgraded. But the OP didn't even try to bring the possible counter arguments and counter proof for it. The reason of the downgrade was that "Veldanava is not the Holy Spirit, so Rimuru transcending him isn't Nondual AND End of the World is not the End of Great Spirits".
The problem is with the latter part, from which most of the downgrade are originated, that if End of the World is the End of Great Spirits or not. And that will be proved in this thread [that it is].
Rimuru's NEP was also argued of not being actual NEP as it was just injecting energy, however, that has a specific context in-verse which was disregarded completely, even though it was already present in the General Concept Blog [WN]
Arguments from previous thread
Snip
Summary : As EOST[End of Space-Time] is not the End of Great Spirits, and thus neither the Dual Spirits, Rimuru loses his his Nonduality [Type 1]. Similarly, his reasoning for NEP is basically injecting energy into his Body, which is not NEP by itself, and thus should be removed.
Counter Arguments
In the old translation, it said "Until a new Great Spirit is born, erasing all", which we can see was obviously false. However, that doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the World, this "Cycle of Life and Death of Spirits" will end.
Then, the world is filled with light and covered with darkness.
New spirits are born and disappear. Life and death. Until that time when the world will one day come to an end. - Raw
Now, how does this relate? Well, this Cycle is produced due to Spirits parting from the Original Masses of Energy, the Great Spirits, they than become impure which leads to them becoming monsters.
So to say, the reason why this cycle exists is because the Great Spirits exist. And as a result, the only plausible reason why this would stop at the End of the World, is if the Great Spirits are destroyed too. Because if the Great Spirits are not unaffected, this cycle, which is produced by them, will not be affected either.
Note that, this can't be something like "they just decided to stop the cycle by themselves" because the Great Spirits do not have any ego or will of their own, they are just Egoless masses of energy, "Pure energy" and a fully Conceptual Existence. So once again, the only plausible reasoning is that they too end at the End of the World.
Additional arguments are that the End of the World is when the World looses ALL of its Energy, where Great Spirits are literally made of Energy. So to say, if the World itself looses "All" of its energy, it would be logical to conclude that all the existences made of energy, which include the great spirits, will end.
So to say, the End of the World is still the End of Great Spirits, and all the abilities that Rimuru lost from it, including his Nonduality Type 1 and resistance to CM1, should be re-given.
______________________________________________________________
--Upgrades--
Upgrade 1 : NondualityWe already know from above that with End of Space-Time being what it is, Rimuru should be given back his Nonduality Type 1. However, lets add more context to this.
First off, the Duality of Light and Dark are not only Universal, as they existed before and hold over all of the World itself, but, they also derive all the other relations from them, such as the relation between Demon and Angels, Nonexistence and Existence, Regeneration and Destruction, Purify and Conceal and possibly more. That is to say, the Great Spirit of Light and Dark are the Origin that give birth to many more opposite relations. Additionally, the Great Spirits are what formed the World, they encompass the whole World, as they existed before it, the Light fills the World and the World is covered by Darkness, this shows that they are a general duality encompassing the whole verse on an entirely conceptual level, not specific to a universe or relation, the Ying and Yang Duality. I quote something that Glassman said
If there’s more than one duality that exists and it extends across reality it’s type 2. You don’t need “all dualities” to be spelled out for you to get type 2. --- Source and 2nd Source from where I got this quote, where similar arguments were used [Note : This is not to be taken as a targeting of any form to another verse, I'm merely giving the source of my argument]
Furthermore, True Dragons are beings that possess both Light[Holy/Divine] and Dark[Demonic/Monster] Attributes at the same time, which is confirmed in both the Raw and by the translator separately. This means they exist in a state where they are both sides of the general duality at the same time, so to say, they are Nondual Type 2, and even if not Type 2, at least Type 1. Furthermore, I quote the Nonduality Page, because existing in a state of both sides of the duality is Nondual, as said in the definition on the page itself :
General Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against all attacks and haxes that don't also possess this level of nonduality, though characters scaling to more logical states than the ones mentioned can bypass this immunity.
And we already know that the Duality of Light and Dark has the followingNonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers.
- It is Conceptual in Nature
- It covers the whole World, which consists of several parallel Universes and many Dimensions.
Note that, we treat being two states at the same time as a whole another state, as said in the definitions :
However, Rimuru's state is not just "Both"[True Dragon] or "Neither"[End of the World], instead, he is both a True Dragon and still survived at the End of Space-Time while being that at the same time. So to say, he is in a state where he is not "A", nor "Not A", nor "Both A AND Not A"[Where both A and Not A exist at the same time], nor "A NAND Not A"[Negation of the third state, where neither A nor Not A exist], but existing in a state where he is the combination of the last two, being "Both A AND Not A, AND A NAND Not A" , thus existing in a 5th Dual state of being.Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers
[Note : AND is a logical operator which denotes that both sides must be true at the same time, while NAND, its negation, says both sides must be false at the same time]
Logically, it'll be :
∧ = and/both at once
¬ = not/negation
A = Light/Yang
¬A = Darkness/Ying
A ∧ ¬A = True Dragons (they are both state are the same time)
¬ (A ∧ ¬A) = End of the World (Neither of the Great Spirits exist at the end of Space and Time)
(A ∧ ¬A) ∧ [¬ (A ∧ ¬A)] = Rimuru (Is both a True Dragon[3rd state], and at the same time, also survived at the End of Space-Time[5th state])
Thus, Rimuru's state cannot be defined by any logical combination[a combination of only two variables, A and ¬A, it can't be Neither of them OR it can't be both of them], and needs a combination of operators between two more operators [(A ∧ ¬A) ∧ [¬ (A ∧ ¬A)]] to be represented.
Mathematically, it'll be :
∧ = and/both at once
¬ = not/negation
1 = Light/Yang
0 = Darkness/Ying
1 ∧ 0 = True Dragons (they are both state are the same time)
¬ (1∧ 0) = End of the World (Neither of the Great Spirits exist at the end of Space and Time)
(1 ∧ 0) ∧ [¬ (1 ∧ 0)] = Rimuru (Is both a True Dragon[3rd state], and at the same time, also survived at the End of Space-Time[5th state])
Thus, Rimuru's state cannot be defined by any logical combination[a combination of only two variables, A and ¬A, it can't be Neither of them OR it can't be both of them], and needs a combination of operators between two more operators [(1 ∧ ¬0) ∧ [¬ (1 ∧ ¬0)]] to be represented.
Conclusive :
- All True Dragons are Nondual Type 2[to be agreed on], while Rimuru is Nondual [Possibly Transdual] Type 3.
Upgrade 2 : Nonexistent Physiology/Interaction
We know from the previous that End of the World is the end of Great Spirits, however, Great Spirits also include the Great Spirit of Sky, which is the concept of Existence and Information. So, Rimuru would have Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2 and 4]. But.... there already exists a NEP1 Void in the World, which means the End of the World, being the destruction of everything, will instead be Nonexistent Nature Type 2 and so will Rimuru.However, once again, lets add more context, major source is this thread, which was unfortunately closed, even though it was accepted by majority, because it somewhat involved Great Spirits previously :
Turn Null is the Nonexistence which remains after even the Void and its Negative energy [Conventional Nonexistence] as well as the Positive Energy[Existence], disappear and are brought to 0[Turn Null].
HOWEVER, in case this the End of the World argument is considered vague, we can use this :
Rimuru can inject his body with Turn Null, under normal cases, that'll just be a stat amplification, however, we have the following context :
Turn Null is an energy :
And a Spiritual Lifeform's body, such as Rimuru's, is made out of Energy, while they can also make clones made completely out of "Energy" :"The Ultimate and Supreme Ability――called『Turn Null』which produced the primordial energy needed to create a world. But in the end, it was impossible for him to recreate it.
Even if he could recreate that ability, he would only cause the energy to go amok and disappear if he didn’t create a world like Veldanava did. After all, 『Turn Null』, as indicated by its name, was pure and super dense energy that destroyed everything. A super-tier level ability that allowed the destruction of the existing world and even the creation of a new world. It was said that Veldanava lost『Turn Null』after he created this world, and he was left with『Magic Essence Breeder Reactor』"
~ Chapter 247
"From the bottom of my body, I could feel a power gushing forth.
I seemed to exist as a mass of energy. As in this darkness full of saturated energy, energy that overflowed from my body might not leak out. How could I explain it so that it’s easy to understand? I couldn’t explain it well because I didn’t have the knowledge, but it was like crystallized sugar inside sugared water, I think that our existences were like that."
~ Intermission:Venom's Story
Therefore, Rimuru, when injecting Turn Null Energy into his body, is essentially replacing the normal "Energy" with the Nonexistent [Type 2] energy of Turn Null, and in that sense, making his own body out of Turn Null, which he should also be able to make a clone purely out of that energy, because energy is what makes up a clone as well."Parallel Existence, kind of feels the most cheat-like.
Leaving his heart(nucleic core) within my body, and creating a clone using Energy. That is now possible.…."
~ Chapter 191
Now, for the aspects :
We already know that Great Spirit of Sky is Information, which makes up everything, including Souls, Mind, and Skills. Additionally, Skills can also be turned to Energy. Concepts are also made out of Energy, stated again. Aspect Types :
- Type 1 : Spiritual Non-Existent : Great Spirit of Sky is information, and everything in TenSura is made up of information, including the soul and mind. As turn null exceeds information, and Rimuru survived after the concept of information[Great Spirit of Sky] was destroyed, meaning Rimuru's Information [in-verse] is non-existent, it means his Soul is also non-existent as souls are a lump of information.
- Type 2 : Conceptual Non-Existent : Same reason as before, unaffected by the destruction of the Great Spirit of Sky, Rimuru has Abstract Existence which now should be on NEP level.
- Type 3 : Mental Non-Existent : Soul and mind are made of information, furthermore, as stated in his profile, his "memories" are stored in his soul, which is non-existent. Resultantly, he gains this aspect type as well.
- Type 4 : Information : Obvious, but remains the same as before[Aspect Type 2].
- Type 5 : Others :He has multiple other things that are Non-existent, such as:
- Energy : Great Spirits are "Pure Energy", while Turn Null is a "Void energy" that precedes and is non-existent to the great spirits.
- Power : "Skills" that are essentially his "Powers and abilities", are made up of information, and inscribed within one's soul, as his information and soul are non-existent, his skills will be as well.
Additionally, Great Spirit of Sky is the concept of Space as well, which means the End of Space-Time is the actual end of the conception of Space, as well as Time[Great Spirit of Time], and would thus lack both Space and Time, qualifying itself, as well as Rimuru who survived the destruction of those Spirits, Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1]. Veldora also survived it so he should be given so as well.(Rimuru's memories are stored in his astral body, and as long as he retains his conscious soul and memory, he can be revived even when his body is completely damaged. In other words, he can think with his soul and is thus immune to mind control effects)
~ Resistances Tag for Demon Slime Key
Conclusion :Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will. They are usually Acausal (Type 1) as a result of being outside of regular time.
- Rimuru and Veldora are to be given Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1], whereas Rimuru is to be given Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5]
- Turn Null is a NEP2 energy and thus can effect NEP2 beings.
Final Conclusive :
- All True Dragons are Nondual Type 2[, while Rimuru is Nondual Type 3,
PossiblyTransduality Type 3 - Rimuru is to be given Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1], as well as Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5]
- Turn Null is a NEP2 energy and thus can effect NEP2 beings.
- Rimuru should be given Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 for surviving the destruction of the Great Spirits, which was removed previously.
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