I asked one in their msg wall, but it'll prolly take time to reply, I'll quote them once they've replied, since you're just ignoring the examples and quotes[from definition pages] I'm giving
the feeling is mutual
Okay, the guy who thinks I am ignorant, could you please read this?
I guess (and I hope) it's an adequate answer
don't forget to drop the source, cuz I can't find it on the definition page even with crtl+f
Its very clearly distinguishing "limited sets of dual distinctions" from "duality itself on a conceptual level"
The pages sometimes don't explain everything fully. For example, if you look at the FAQ page, it basically says "infinitely larger" or somethings like that for tier 1, but the page doesn't explain it in detail, even though the meaning is qualitative and mathematical.
The FAQ page itself explains later what it means by "infinitely larger" on the same page
Thanks for that, now I am much more sure that I am right
sure, tho I don't see how this proves you right when it literally distinguishes normal set of specific dual systems from conceptual daulity
Why would you say manipulating/possessing a Duality element would make it a Non Dual character?
No,this is not NEP2,to be NEP2 you must be neither an existence and nonexitence,and,i don't see any reasons why Turn Null would qualify of NEP2,as Turn Null is stated to be Void Energy and Turn Null contains Negative Energy as well,which you've shown in this Thread to be a void
So,Turn Null is only NEP1,for aspects,i'd agree for 5 aspects,but only Energy as the 5th Aspect,i'd neutral for power
Actually no, what is meant here is that the only power that exists in nothingness, even before the concepts/duality of light/yang and darkness/yin, is the power of the Great Holy Spirit.
Yeah,if we used the translation from here
)
It does not contain negative energy. Negative energy of the forbidden void is conventional nonexistence while great spirit of sky is existence, take than as 1[existence] and -1[nonexistence], than is Turn Null, the nothingness that existed before the creation of the World and after its destruction, 0[a third state]. I used +- logic here, but if you're concerned with Binary logic, just replace the -1 with 0 and 0 with another number.
Its not lack of energy but a nonexistent energy that precedes existence and nonexistence alike
It doesn't? Lack of either side of the Duality[the end of the world] makes one Nondual, while possessing both sides of the duality at the same time does the same, as they are states outside of binary logic.
Pardon? But where did I use that logic?
There is no such thing as a forbidden void in WN.
Turn Null is a void, yes, but it is what remains after the negative energy[nonexistent] and positve energy[existence] clash and become 0[i.e., the world becomes completely non]Yeah,if we used the translation from here
But when i translated the raw using DeepL
I found 2 results
The first one is "in nothingness power finds its fill" or something similar(i forgot it already
the second one is "Power is full of emptiness"
I prefer to use the second one because it does make more sense to me since Turn Null was stated to be Void energies and does have a Negative Energy in it
(Well,i'm not gonna debate for it,because i just want to argue about NEP2 in this thread)
Excuse me, I named it wrong, I meant Void summoned by forbidden dark magic
Yes, this is really the final point for me. Don't you realize you're being ridiculous when you say they're a Yin and Yang duality just because they have a few opposing qualities? Are you really going to keep saying that the True Dragons in WN (including Veldanava) are Nondual when none of them precede the Great Spirits of Darkness and Light?
It contradicts the feat that shows Rimuru extracted Negative Energy from Turn Null
The page literally states "lack of"
Since Turn Null is literally the energy itself,it won't lack of energy,because it's still an energy
It's because the energy ran out,Turn Null also can run out
Its not my problem that you don't know
Idk why people still think there are only very limited ways to reach certain hax
It is not anti-matter manipulation. We have already debated this many times in my previous thread how its not anti-matter
Why are you assuming matter is positive energy and vice versa? Because they are not, stop using analogies that are wrong to begin with
Which scan? Just because its called void energy, doesn't mean its the same void energy as before.
Ah, I thought you were referring to power aspect by that. Its nonexistent because it precedes existence. Great Spirits are made of energy and great spirit of sky is the concept of existence
that just means their concept is nonexistent
That has nothing to do with here
Veldanava didn't create the world. It is already clarified by the author that he didn't. The world was created by the holy spirit and the great spirits. The RAW from the author's blog
Anti-matter is physical in real life, fiction does not have to adhere to real life, you are the one who limits yourself by assuming that there is no anti-matter manipulation that can even affect concepts and information.
I'm gonna reply to this with the same thing I replied in our last thread
And once again, must I remind you, why are we going to use it as Anti-matter manipulation[which is your assumption] when its literally proved to be a void by the following things
Veldanava did not create the World, but he shaped the World's formless / primordial existence consisting of Yin and Yang duality with Turn Null and created the system that controls the World.
Here
No,Great Spirits weren't power,they are an energy
Are you sure this comes after chapter 248? If it's not,then it can get revised
Turn Null was stated to be the primordial energy,are you sure this doesn't contradict the Lore?
Don't make it more complicated,explain to me that Veldanava didn't create the world without contradict the lore
It is called Void energy, but just because of that, we cannot assume its the same void energy as that of Nihilistic Banish
Did I say they are power? I said they are made of energy, turn null is an energy. Great Spirit of sky is the concept of existence, an energy[turn null] which precedes the energy that is the concept of existence, would be nonexistent.
Nonexistent power, of course.
My scans for turn null come from Chapter 206, chapter 62, and chapter 400
Turn Null being the primordial energy simply means it precedes everything in the world, which would simply back up the claim that its a nonexistent energy even more so
Holy Spirit created the World, it is the source of everything, however, when great spirits were created, the world was am ephemeral existence, according to fuse, that'd be the Primordial World swirling with energy
When matter and anti-matter interact, they both disappear and nothingness is occurs.
Is it so difficult to understand that what negative energy means here is dark energy in real life? (however, we do not have a dark energy page on the wiki yet)
Yes, so what does this prove, nothing? How can you so clearly object to the idea that Tensura's unique anti-matter manipulation destroys concepts, when a physical sword cutting concepts is such a normal and common thing in fiction?
A physical sword cutting concepts means it has nonphysical interaction and/or conceptual manipulation.
Anyways, I'll just wait for staff input on this since I know you just can't take it being void energy when its even directly stated to be so. Instead of making it longer and making it difficult for the staff to evaluate, lets just wait for staff who know better to give input
I'll be highlighting this for the people who have clearly not read the OP enough to understand
You say it yourself, something physical can have powers such as non-physical interaction, conceptual manipulation, etc. This is exactly the case here, you are just looking for an excuse to ignore it.
This is the way Fuse indexes Nihilistic Hazard, not the way the wiki indexes it. The wiki indexes abilities primarily by their feats in fiction, just read what Nihilistic Hazard does. An ability that literally destroys everything it interacts with, like a kind of anti-matter manipulation, and turns the world into void until it disappears. This is still a manipulation of nothingness, no one opposes it. But this does not provide any additional proof for NEP 2 regardless.
Ignore it? How am I ignoring it, when I'm literally going to and exactly matching the definitions? I'll just quote this again
This is literally what Void and its negative energy does, and is clearly enough to be considered void manipulation.
Once again, Anti-matter interacts with matter and the moment they so, it turns into an "Annihilation process" where energy is generated, not nonexistent energy even
This isn't derailment, I guess you don't even know what derailment means. What the arguments in the OP say and what the scans say are different, there is no reason for me to don't discuss the so-called counter-arguments when many scans are used out of context.
You have literally failed to prove a single one of that claim that take it out of the context of the OP and instead go into real life examples which aren't even applicable here
I already accept that this is a manipulation of nothingness, I've already stated it at least twice. This is both anti-matter manipulation and void manipulation, but negative energy itself is not a conventional nonexistent that can be used as a basis for NEP Type 2 as you use in your arguments.
You're just using scans out of context to meet the requirements on the definition pages, that's all.
That's right, Non duality has 2 states:
What he means is that having an void or nothingness is not the same as having NEP2, i.e. a complete lack of existence and non-existence (dual state of being)
When did I said they had the ability to manipulate the duality bro......
Again, I never said it was an ability, nor did I say they use it as an ability, and neither did I say true dragons have CM1 here
True Dragons are Ying-Yang as a physiology of them being True Dragons, they are Chaos Spirits, beings that are Nondual by nature of being both ying and yang at the same time
Positive energy[existence] and negative energy of the void[nonexistence] -> they clash together, making the world return to the state of 0 where both of them are no more -> Negative energy clashes with positive energy, both disappear/cancel out each other, what remains is turn null
I guess you won't understand the difference between the lack of existence and non-existence even if I explain it to you, but anyway, I'm already neutral on NEP 2
