TenSura Upgrade [WN]

[CodeCCLL]

they are spawned from that duality

Just because they arise from dualities does not mean that they govern reality like dualities, they are literally just conceptual beings that's all.

True Dragons can exist before the World, such as Star King Dragon Veldanava, or survive the 'natural' end of the World, such as Veldora

None of the True Dragons including Veldanava were born before dualities, how many times will you ignore the fact that the only thing that comes before dualities is the Holy Spirit.
Also, again out of context statement. Veldora did not survive the end of Earth as a True Dragon, Veldora was already in Rimuru's imaginary space at the end of the series and the situation in the afterstories is a completely different context.

It existed before Ying-Yang

Ignore the fact that the only thing that comes before Yin and Yang is the Holy Spirit, Veldanava is not the Holy Spirit, so Turn Null does not come before Yin and Yang either.

Negative energy clashes with positive energy, they cancel out each other and turn null

Ignore the scan provided by .@Caster_Ren.

Also literally ignore this scan and continue to assume about the end of space-time based on some event that never happened.

 

[Rizkykarbit]

1- Make what you're trying to say more clear
2- Read Glassman's quote in the OP
3- Read the messages in the thread where those arguments were answered

I know that type 2 needs to be a symbol for other dualities, that’s why you need more proof for that.

And this’s not enough to prove that all objects governed by Yin-Yang/Darkness-Light are duality.

It being called Ying-Yang that can never intersect, but light fills the world and darkness covers it, is well enough to be called a Duality.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yeah yeah,being Concept Type 1 without even governing something,seems good to me

Where does it say on the page a Nondual has to be a Type 1 concept?

Just because they arise from dualities does not mean that they govern reality like dualities, they are literally just conceptual beings that's all.

Read the full thing, seriously..... this is what I said, I didn't even say they "govern reality"

They are not the duality itself, why would they govern something, they are spawned from that duality -_-

None of the True Dragons including Veldanava were born before dualities, how many times will you ignore the fact that the only thing that comes before dualities is the Holy Spirit.
Also, again out of context statement. Veldora did not survive the end of Earth as a True Dragon, Veldora was already in Rimuru's imaginary space at the end of the series and the situation in the afterstories is a completely different context.

Apologies, I confused LN with WN at that part. [And I said before the world, not the dualities]
For Veldora I was referring to chapter 400, not 248

Ignore the fact that the only thing that comes before Yin and Yang is the Holy Spirit, Veldanava is not the Holy Spirit, so Turn Null does not come before Yin and Yang either.

A spirit is…

“In nothingness power finds its fill.

That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power.

Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits.

Who came to exist at the same moment as the world.

But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence.

Light and shadow, darkness and the light. Two existences that shall never interweave.

One day, the great spirit time was born.

The child of light and darkness.

Ignore the scan provided by .@Caster_Ren.

Also literally ignore this scan and continue to assume about the end of space-time based on some event that never happened.

Not including the full scan I see

"That's right. Yuuki's attack sent us to the other side of space and time. The lifespan of the star had long since ended, but the world had not yet collapsed. Judging from that, Yuuki probably wouldn't have been able to destroy the world itself. I assume that his lifespan has come to an end once he has destroyed all the stars in his space-time continuum. However, it is difficult to judge whether his wish was fulfilled. After that, he wandered through space, witnessing the end of this universe.



--I still can't understand what Ciel-san is saying...

Did you see the end of the universe? What are you talking about...?

In fact, there's no way he could live in such a state.

Just when I was thinking that if I were going to tell a lie, it would be a better lie, I remembered that Ciel-san doesn't tell lies.

Sometimes I was deceived, but it wasn't a lie, it was just a misunderstanding on my part - or rather, I was made to do so.

Does that mean this is really the end of the world?

"Yes, that's right. So, without further ado, what are you going to do after this? 》

I know that type 2 needs to be a symbol for other dualities, that’s why you need more proof for that.

And this’s not enough to prove that all objects governed by Yin-Yang/Darkness-Light are duality.

Them being Conceptual in nature and encompassing the whole cosmology[entire level of reality] is enough.


Alright, people, managed to get a staff input on what it'd be, although, on their msg walls
I quote the messages

Me :
1- Wouldn't that contradict this?

Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level.

since this seems to distinguish the "limited sets of dual distinctions" from "duality itself on a conceptual level" [Edit: In my initial comment, I meant if Type 1 duality also always have to conceptual]

2- So even if its limited, it still can be a dual system?[albeit a type 1/specific one]

3- Its a Ying-Yang/Light-darkness duality of pre-conventional reality concepts that extends to the whole cosmology[2C] and with the context "the world is filled by light[yang] and covered by darkness[ying]", "World" is 2-C, additionally, other things like "existence-nonexistence" and "angel-demon" as well as "angelic-demonic powers" spawn from it. Is that enough to be considered general duality? [Note: the context doesn't include things like "it spawns all possible dualities" or more direct context of the like]

Glassman's reply :
that depends on the dual nature, like one being very literal like yin and yang which doesn't need to have it be explained as concepts, or something like good or evil, but it's referring to the literal concepts of them in a "two sides of the same coin" type relationship.

Yes, that's how type 1 functions after all.

that sounds sufficient enough if it's described like that.

There ya go, for ya'll who thought it wouldn't be enough

 

[Caster_Ren]

Where does it say on the page a Nondual has to be a Type 1 concept?

So you're saying demons are nondual?

 

[Rizkykarbit]

Them being Conceptual in nature and encompassing the whole cosmology[entire level of reality] is enough.


Alright, people, managed to get a staff input on what it'd be, although, on their msg walls
I quote the messages


There ya go, for ya'll who thought it wouldn't be enough

Every duality needs to be encompass reality, even for type 1 dualities. This is proof that you don’t understand Glassman’s Quote

 

[CodeCCLL]

Read the full thing, seriously..... this is what I said, I didn't even say they "govern reality"

A concept that does not govern reality cannot be a Type 2/1 concept

Apologies, I confused LN with WN at that part. [And I said before the world, not the dualities]
For Veldora I was referring to chapter 400, not 248

Chapter 400, as I said, is a completely different context. It has already been made clear from the downgrade thread, Mobius System does not even have conceptual manipulation. In Afterstories, Veldora did not survive the destruction of the Universe caused by the Mobius System, he suppressed the Mobius System with his Aura which can affect the Laws of the World and covers the whole World.

Not including the full scan I see

I updated the scan in my own image, but it is not updated here. The World was already destroyed and Rimuru was not affected at the end of space-time, Beelzebub was useless on it anyway. But the Beelzebub that brought the end of the spacetime of a single universe as indicated in the scans would not have affected the parallel universes and the underworld that Veldanava created by shaping the primordial world anyway, so we cannot say that it really affected the Great Spirits. The destruction of all energy in the OP would only be valid if Beelzebub had destroyed the entire Primordial World.

I quote the messages

Glassman's comment means only that there is hope that the Holy Spirit may have Nonduality Type 2, nothing more.

 

[Fixxed]

It being called Ying-Yang that can never intersect, but light fills the world and darkness covers it, is well enough to be called a Duality.

It is not. We already had Nonduality Type 1 accepted with Ying-Yang being a duality, the only reason it was removed was because of wrong translation at "End of the World" part which once again was given more context in this thread

Yin and yang that mention in that scan just fot describe the nature of light and darkness, that why rimuru even have ND 1. It not for describe everything is in the system of yin and yang (duality), just light and dark that operated in that system

I literally even gave a another thread as well as two more cases as an example, tho, that is, if someone cared to read the OP fully

There is no requirement like "all normal concept that govern reality being a duality" being a necessity, read Glassman's quote

Your example just show how duality in type 2 is mean all of duality. In that two example, you can see that yin and yang not only describe some aspect in reality like what tensura do, but yin and yang become system that every aspect of world are operate in that system

No, that quote is false. All duality mean all duality. We even have thread that discussed about that

Ying-Yang/Light-Dark are a duality, and as a result the both and neither are 3rd and 4th states. This debunks nothing

Not general duality

1- I never said it in that wording tho
2- Already proved in the OP
3- Same as 2nd point

Your point in OP is absurd, there are no "neither state" because you only prove something that not a duality but not prove it still in the system of duality.
And you missunderstand what "both state" mean. It not mean you exist as the two thing but exist as the united of the two thing

Your sentences are contradicting yourself, or maybe its just your grammar or a type -_-

Turn Null is what remains when both void and negative energy[conventional nonexistence] as well as the positive energy[existence] turn 0


All these arguments are already explained in the OP, and thus hold no ground

Yeah void energy not a idea/concept of nothing, so being lack of that is not give you NEP 2 at all

You need nothingness that lack idea of nothing, not just lack of nothing

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

So you're saying demons are nondual?

No? How did you come to that conclusion?
Also, seems there was also a misinterpretation on my part, I'll clarify that in the comment after this

Every duality needs to be encompass reality, even for type 1 dualities. This is proof that you don’t understand Glassman’s Quote

Read the message, seriously..... Glassman literally clarified it doesn't need "every duality" to exist in the verse, Ying-Yang can be the general duality when given enough context

A concept that does not govern reality cannot be a Type 2/1 concept

Neither did I said it was Type 1 or 2

Chapter 400, as I said, is a completely different context. It has already been made clear from the downgrade thread, Mobius System does not even have conceptual manipulation. In Afterstories, Veldora did not survive the destruction of the Universe caused by the Mobius System, he suppressed the Mobius System with his Aura which can affect the Laws of the World and covers the whole World.

1- Veldora won't be affected even if the World is destroyed
2- Except, the only chapters were "Negative energy" are explained are Chapter 206, and Chapter 398~400
3- Did I say Mobius System had conceptual manipulation? I am referring to Negative energy in general, not Mobius system in specific

I updated the scan in my own image, but it is not updated here. The World was already destroyed and Rimuru was not affected at the end of space-time, Beelzebub was useless on it anyway. But the Beelzebub that brought the end of the spacetime of a single universe as indicated in the scans would not have affected the parallel universes and the underworld that Veldanava created by shaping the primordial world anyway, so we cannot say that it really affected the Great Spirits. The destruction of all energy in the OP would only be valid if Beelzebub had destroyed the entire Primordial World.

Separate the parts where you are referring to Chapter 248, and the part where you are referring to the after stories, in this para.

Glassman's comment means only that there is hope that the Holy Spirit may have Nonduality Type 2, nothing more.

If you're still not convinced, I'll just ask Glassman the other part as well....

Yin and yang that mention in that scan just fot describe the nature of light and darkness, that why rimuru even have ND 1. It not for describe everything is in the system of yin and yang (duality), just light and dark that operated in that system
Your example just show how duality in type 2 is mean all of duality. In that two example, you can see that yin and yang not only describe some aspect in reality like what tensura do, but yin and yang become system that every aspect of world are operate in that system

No, that quote is false. All duality mean all duality. We even have thread that discussed about that
Not general duality

All this becomes irrelevant because a staff has already approved that in this case Ying-Yang can be general duality
Also, are you claiming what the staff said is wrong?

Your point in OP is absurd, there are no "neither state" because you only prove something that not a duality but not prove it still in the system of duality.
And you missunderstand what "both state" mean. It not mean you exist as the two thing but exist as the united of the two thing

Indivisible wholeness is not the only way to be both states -_-

Yeah void energy not a idea/concept of nothing, so being lack of that is not give you NEP 2 at all

You need nothingness that lack idea of nothing, not just lack of nothing

there is nothing on the definition page suggesting NEP2 is the "Idea of the lack of nothing"

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Nonduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

So yeah, there's nothing here stating "lack the idea of nothingness", that's something you're basing from yourself, and you debunked nothing

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Notice : I'll be requesting this thread to be closed
Reasons :

• So, I admit I was wrong on the part of True Dragons being Nondual, as well as a few others, it seems I'll need to read the WN again to find a few more scans too, as well as revise my own definitions. Therefore, I'll request this thread to be closed, and will [maybe] come back with better arguments next time [also need to focus on LN for now, since it has far more explanation and context compared to WN] {Note : Though, I don't think I lost in the other part about Ying-Yang being a general duality, as confirmed by Glassman}
• Eid is coming a day[or maybe two] from now, so I'll be busy with IRL stuff
• My own weakness after fasting for a month

With that, most likely, the next WN thread will take around a month[exams coming], so I'll mostly be restricting to less complicated Light novel upgrades for that time. And, Cya, it was good[and bad] debating ya'll
[P.S. although my own assumptions, if anyone participated with the intention of derailment, congratz, you've won]

 

[Damage3245]

Closing at OP's request.