Removing some unjustified abilities of Rimuru tempest (WN)

[Jozaysmith?]

as discussed with the supporters on discord, we have agreed rimuru tempest WN have unjustified abilities on his profile wss which is causing unnecessary misunderstanding between the supporters and the opponents or just it being generally misunderstood, i did have a downgrade thread with my former account which is this- just using arguments from there into this thread
Plus additional mishaps-

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Veldanava isn't Holy spirit ignoring the whole "Rimuru Transcends Everything" imblem he only got probably as strong as Veldanava, with more potency, their abilities and so the more are the Same

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Fusing yourself with Void energy doesn't make you nonexistent, i wonder why everyone ignored this in the first place lol

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As rimuru have no proof of even scaling to the GS, he definitely should lose his Nonduality

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Yuuki and rimuru should get CM2 via beelzebuth but CM1 for turn null remains
I'll create a profile for Veldanava Web novel and Holy spirit as well

• Remove Nep, ND, CM1 via beelzebuth from rimuru, Veldora and Yuuki
• Cm1 stays for turn null

Now since i didn't make a thread for that one, know that The concept of time doesn't have proof of being an independent concept but rather it only have proof of being something that govern the univers, the great spirit is something that if killed will collapse the entirety of the series, like all of time in the multiverse whereas it was said that it won't affect other dimensions
So there we go however WN rimuru won't lose his CM1 because of the nature of turn null

 

[Jozaysmith?]

if this can be discussed or debunked between supporters he should be able to keep his nonduality to some extent

 

[BlackCat]

1. You need an explanation to refute Cm1 from the old Beelzebuth before you can downgrade it (I don't know if the old thread had one or not).
2. In order to remove Nep1, you must: There must be an explanation to refute this thread as well. (as many staff members have agreed that it is appropriate).
3. In order to remove Nd1, you must: There must be an explanation to refute this thread as well.

(However, it is necessary to wait for Elizhaa first. Because she is the one who accepts Nep1 and Nd1 as well)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

as discussed with the supporters on discord, we have agreed rimuru tempest WN have unjustified abilities on his profile wss which is causing unnecessary misunderstanding between the supporters and the opponents or just it being generally misunderstood, i did have a downgrade thread with my former account which is this- just using arguments from there into this thread

I agreed with your previous thread regarding NEP type 1 removal just gonna copy paste the same argument here.

Agree with downgrading NEP type 1 because i also thought it doens't make sense. Rimuru obviously injecting the turn null but in the scans from previous threads never shown or stated to be he himself turning into non existent being because of that. From what I understand he just gets big amp from that nothing else. Unless some scans states he gets non existent features because of injecting turn null into his body. That should be downgraded.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I'll keep it simple.

Veldanava isn't Holy spirit

There is no need to explain this in detail, this case was explained in detail in the relevant section of the previous thread linked in the OP.

But you should still include the English translation of the author statements in the OP.

Fusing yourself with Void energy doesn't make you nonexistent, i wonder why everyone ignored this in the first place lol

Rimuru's fusing of his body with void energy is still technically valid for NEP Nature 1, but I agree with removing NEP 1 since the rest of the series never once includes an extra statement about Rimuru having a non-existent nature. In particular, the Nature of NEP, which resulted in non-interaction, was not mentioned even once. For example, even characters who did not have any manipulate or interaction on nothingness could easily interact with him.

As rimuru have no proof of even scaling to the GS, he definitely should lose his Nonduality

This is obvious since we don't scale Rimuru to the Great Holy Spirit.

Yuuki and rimuru should get CM2 via beelzebuth but CM1 for turn null remains
I'll create a profile for Veldanava Web novel and Holy spirit as well

• Remove Nep, ND, CM1 via beelzebuth from rimuru, Veldora and Yuuki
• Cm1 stays for turn null

Now since i didn't make a thread for that one, know that The concept of time doesn't have proof of being an independent concept but rather it only have proof of being something that govern the univers, the great spirit is something that if killed will collapse the entirety of the series, like all of time in the multiverse whereas it was said that it won't affect other dimensions

The basic logic here is that the concept of time that can be absorbed by the Beelzebub/Mobius System is not the Great Spirit of Time itself, which is a multiversal type 1 time concept, but a type 2 time concept, which is a universal part of it, since other dimensions and therefore universes are not affected as a result of its disappearance.

• Remove Nep, ND, CM1 via beelzebuth from rimuru, Veldora and Yuuki
• Cm1 stays for turn null

In conclusion:

•Yuuki and Rimuru's Beelzebub and Veldora's own Conceptual Manipulation are downgraded from Type 1 to Type 2.
•Veldora and Rimuru's Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 2.
•Via Turn Null, Rimuru still has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.
•Rimuru's Nonexistent Physiology and Nonduality are completely removed.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

For NEP
It's cuz first of all, Turn Null is an energy

“
""The Ultimate and Supreme Ability――called『Turn Null』which produced the primordial energy needed to create a world. But in the end, it was impossible for him to recreate it.
Even if he could recreate that ability, he would only cause the energy to go amok and disappear if he didn’t create a world like Veldanava did.
After all, 『Turn Null』, as indicated by its name, was pure and super dense energy that destroyed everything. A super-tier level ability that allowed the destruction of the existing world and even the creation of a new world.
It was said that Veldanava lost『Turn Null』after he created this world, and he was left with『Magic Essence Breeder Reactor』"
„~ Chapter 247

And Spiritual Lifeforms are, as we know, made out of energy beings, they are energy masses.

These scan is from General Concept Page
Spiritual Lifeforms don't have a Physical Body

“	"Looks like he managed to get along with Momiji, and has safely ascended. Discarding his physical body, he had fully evolved into a Spiritual Life Form. Albeit lower than the True Dragons, he is still an Elemental Divine Spirit nonetheless. "	„
	~ Chapter 191

They are masses of Energy

Demons exists as a mass of energy:

“	"From the bottom of my body, I could feel a power gushing forth. I seemed to exist as a mass of energy. As in this darkness full of saturated energy, energy that overflowed from my body might not leak out. How could I explain it so that it’s easy to understand? I couldn’t explain it well because I didn’t have the knowledge, but it was like crystallized sugar inside sugared water, I think that our existences were like that."	„
	~ Intermission:Venom's Story

Rimuru, as a Spiritual Lifeform, can inject Turn Null, an Energy, into his Body, that is already made out of Energy[Magicules].

'For me, it would be the void energies of『Void God Azathoth』's “Turn Null”. Said energy would be regulated from within the void space, it is then possible to "inject" that energy into my body.
As my body is mostly made up of Magic Essence, that means I would power up if there was more Energy.' (Tensura Web Novel Chapter 199)

Thus, he is not only "making his energy more", but he's essentially making his body out of that said energy, because energy is what makes up a Spiritual Lifeform's body. As the Turn Null energy is nonexistent, his body, that is a mass of energy, would also be nonexistent, because that is what his body is.

Conclusion : Rimuru will not loose his NEP.

I'll also regard the ND1 topic when am free, for now following the thread to see how other members treat Rimuru's ND1.

 

[Dereck03]

In conclusion:

•Yuuki and Rimuru's Beelzebub and Veldora's own Conceptual Manipulation are downgraded from Type 1 to Type 2.
•Veldora and Rimuru's Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 2.
•Via Turn Null, Rimuru still has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.
•Rimuru's Nonexistent Physiology and Nonduality are completely removed.

I'm pretty fine with these conclusions.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

For NEP
It's cuz first of all, Turn Null is an energy


And Spiritual Lifeforms are, as we know, made out of energy beings, they are energy masses.

These scan is from General Concept Page
Spiritual Lifeforms don't have a Physical Body

They are masses of Energy


Rimuru, as a Spiritual Lifeform, can inject Turn Null, an Energy, into his Body, that is already made out of Energy[Magicules].



Thus, he is not only "making his energy more", but he's essentially making his body out of that said energy, because energy is what makes up a Spiritual Lifeform's body. As the Turn Null energy is nonexistent, his body, that is a mass of energy, would also be nonexistent, because that is what his body is.

Conclusion : Rimuru will not loose his NEP.

I'll also regard the ND1 topic when am free, for now following the thread to see how other members treat Rimuru's ND1.

All rimuru did there was void manip+statistics Amp

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

All rimuru did there was void manip+statistics Amp

That still does nothing to the fact that SLs are made out of energy, and Rimuru can make his body out of turn null energy.
Void Manip and St Amp is merely some of the many things it could do.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

That still does nothing to the fact that SLs are made out of energy, and Rimuru can make his body out of turn null energy.
Void Manip and St Amp is merely some of the many things it could do.

Idk how you interpreted it to him making his body out of turn bull

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Idk how you interpreted it to him making his body out of turn bull

Simple. SLs are made out of energy, Rimuru can inject Turn null energy into his body, that is already made of energy. He's essentially making his own body out of turn null -_-

 

[AdamVhenJP]

Btw, I agreed with removed

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

I agree with the removal.

 

[Wikisource]

As rimuru have no proof of even scaling to the GS, he definitely should lose his Nonduality

Please explain in more detail. I still don't understand the reason for this.

Yuuki and rimuru should get CM2 via beelzebuth

Why?

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Not indulging, tagging one more staff so i can remove this

 

[Catpija]

I'll comment later. I mostly agree with NEP, but the rest is problematic at the least.

 

[Rizkykarbit]

I'll comment later. I mostly agree with NEP, but the rest is problematic at the least.

Same

 

[Wikisource]

I'll comment later. I mostly agree with NEP, but the rest is problematic at the least.

Same

 

[Elizhaa]

In conclusion:

•Yuuki and Rimuru's Beelzebub and Veldora's own Conceptual Manipulation are downgraded from Type 1 to Type 2.
•Veldora and Rimuru's Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 2.
•Via Turn Null, Rimuru still has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.
•Rimuru's Nonexistent Physiology and Nonduality are completely removed.

I also think those changes seem fine.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

tagging one more staff so i can remove this

Elizhaa has given her agreement, so there are agreements from 2 staff, the changes can be applied now.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Elizhaa has given her agreement, so there are agreements from 2 staff, the changes can be applied now.

I was waiting for @Catpija lets hear what he have to say
But i am removing NEP since its generally accepted to not qualify, and i will also let all supporters be aware

A single statement of fusing yourself with void energies with no back up statement doesn't qualify for nonexistent physiology, unless there's a backup statement then we would only see this as stats amp+ Void manipulation, hence forth any discussion about rimuru becoming Nep2 or Nonduality type 2 will be somewhat rule breaking and user will be warned officially by a staff.

 

[Catpija]

Alright, I guess I'll start from the least controversial (for me).

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• Conceptual Manipulation

For starters, I agree that the feat is definitely not Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, but my problem lies in what you suggest to replace it. I don't think that what Mobius System did is "Conceptual Manipulation" in the first place. Ciel deliberately explain that Mobius System continually will absorb all the energy in the world, stopping the expansion of the universe (growthspeed = movement of time) which in return caused the concept of time to disappear. It is stated very explicitly clear that the destruction of the concept of time isn't a direct result from Mobius System, but rather an indirect one (a chain effect).

I see.

Growthspeed = the movement of time. So when the world loses its power to expand, then it loses the concept of time as well. (Chapter 399)

So what does this exactly mean? It means this is NOT Conceptual Manipulation. The page already mentioned this in the 'Non-Qualifying Concepts' section, in which that eliminating the universal object (time in this case) to destroy the concept doesn't count.

Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation.

Surely, by this we should disregard this exact feat for 'Conceptual Manipulation' and replace it with another. Beelzebuth should instead get Type 3 instead, as it can devour demons who were accepted as type 3 concept before here.

Then, he was devoured by the Gluttonous King (Beelzebub) without resistance.

The moment he was devoured, the greater devil dissimilated. (Chapter 71)

And there's that, I don't think anything should be changed by now. Contrary to @Codecll, I believe that Rimuru's resistance to CM1 shouldnt be deleted since it goes by different feat, by resisting his own ability (Turn Null).

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• Non-Duality

Okay yeah, this is problematic. I can kind of see where the skepticism land so I'll try to explain it thoroughly. Let's first talk about the "scan" that you sent.

You should have probably provided a translation and an explanation rather than just copy-pasting someone's Imgur link. For those of you who were curious it basically said that "Veldanava existed after the world creation", which supposedly prove that he is not the holy spirit.

That however, does not disprove anything. Because unfortunately, our glorious most consistent author Fuse-sensei, decided to change his mind and write that Veldanava was the one who created the world, eight months after the comment. (The comment was posted on 8th Nov 2023, but Chapter 248 was released on 6th July 2014)

That was the reason why he created the world: in order to distract himself from the boredom[1]. (Chapter 248)

And of course, the web novel itself is much more reliable than some comment on the site, so it obvious we will go with this one instead.

Rimuru is also shown to be intact and just fine despite being in the 'End of Time and Space', where Great Spirits no longer exist. On top of that, he is stated to be an existence that surpassed/trascended everything. Its pretty clear that at the end of the day, Rimuru doesn't rely on Great Spirits (duality) to keep living and existing, regardless of Veldanava and Great Holy Spirit thing.


So yeah I wholeheartedly disagree for the removal of Non-Duality, in fact I do think it should be changed to Nature Type 2 instead since Rimuru 'trascending everything' shown superiority, although that might should be a topic for another thread.

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Conclusion/TL;DR:

• Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 3 instead.
• Veldora's resistance to CM is downgraded to Type 2.
• Non-Duality stays (?)

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Rimuru is also shown to be intact and just fine despite being in the 'End of Time and Space', where Great Spirits no longer exist. On top of that, he is stated to be an existence that surpassed/trascended everything. Its pretty clear that at the end of the day, Rimuru doesn't rely on Great Spirits (duality) to keep living and existing, regardless of Veldanava and Great Holy Spirit thing.

Gotta disagree with this, i still don't even understand why everyone keep misunderstanding what happened there, you also said it yourself

Growthspeed=The Movement of time, so when then world loses its power to expand it loses the concept of time.

Even in a World without energy, in other words, in a world where time have stopped to expand, Veldora can move

So NOW going on the edge of the UNIVERSE means you survive the destruction of the multiverse, wow, and secondly go and find out more about what is HEAT DEATH, Ciel literally called it my the LAW OF ENTROPY

The problem with WN supporters merely using one statement that haven't been consistent in the series or whatever and used to create a chain of inconsistenties, WN rimuru profile was a land of lies, firstly it was said he survived the destruction of the multiverse whereas not even the universe was destroyed (in a literal sense)
Secondly;
I countered your arguments on the last thread about who and what is holy spirit, even though it is Veldanava
The one who made great spirits are two different people like the LN, you also don't have anything to use to back up your statements merely saying he was in void+ he created the world have no mention to have created the great spirits

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Conclusion/TL;DR:

• Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 3 instead.
• Veldora's resistance to CM is downgraded to Type 2.
• Non-Duality stays (?)

I agree with this asidr from cm downgrade

 

[CodeCCLL]

but my problem lies in what you suggest to replace it. I don't think that what Mobius System did is "Conceptual Manipulation" in the first place. Ciel deliberately explain that Mobius System continually will absorb all the energy in the world, stopping the expansion of the universe (growthspeed = movement of time) which in return caused the concept of time to disappear. It is stated very explicitly clear that the destruction of the concept of time isn't a direct result from Mobius System, but rather an indirect one (a chain effect).

In order to destroy the concept of time, technically the entire spacetime continuum has to be destroyed, but here it is said that the concept of time will disappear only when the expansion rate of the universe stops. I agree that this is not conceptual manipulation, and you could probably even argue that the disappearance of the concept of time means that the concept of time loses its meaning and that this is just fancy language because nothing happens to the real concept of time, which is indeed more logical than discript the concept of time into universal and multiversal.

Surely, by this we should disregard this exact feat for 'Conceptual Manipulation' and replace it with another. Beelzebuth should instead get Type 3 instead, as it can devour demons who were accepted as type 3 concept before here.

This is something that's already been accepted, and the only reason it wasn't in the profile was because Rimuru already had higher conceptual manipulation types.

scan

That was my first thought about this issue, just like you said, what he wrote and what he said contradict each other.

I know all this, but really, his own fiction and his explanations contradict each other at some point so it's not something that can be objected to, after all, the author himself says this, let's see if someone works on this subject, I'll help.

That however, does not disprove anything. Because unfortunately, our glorious most consistent author Fuse-sensei, decided to change his mind and write that Veldanava was the one who created the world, eight months after the comment. (The comment was posted on 8th Nov 2023, but Chapter 248 was released on 6th July 2014)

We still accept it as Veldanava creating the World and Turn Null thus has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 but there is still no convincing proof that Veldanava and the Holy Spirit are the same beings.

We know that the formless form of the World was formed from the duality of the Great Spirit of Darkness and the Great Spirit of Light that preceded the World itself, and then it is mentioned that the Great Spirit of Time, the child of the Great Spirit of Darkness and Light, brought time to the World, but that the World was formed by the Great Spirit of Light and Darkness It is not stated who shapes the World formless and temporarily existence, and it is also said that Veldanava created the World. If we combine what has been given to us so far it is most probably Veldanava who shapes the World with Turn Null.

So it is really Veldanava who creates the World, but Veldanava is not the Great Holy Spirit and has no relationship with other Great Spirits, especially the Great Spirit of Darkness and Light.

Rimuru is also shown to be intact and just fine despite being in the 'End of Time and Space', where Great Spirits no longer exist.

There isn't proof that Great Spirits did not exist at the end of space-time where Yuuki sent Rimuru. Yuuki has failed to influence anything beyond main universe, let alone influence the Great Spirits who embody all concepts in the entire multiverse.

On top of that, he is stated to be an existence that surpassed/trascended everything. Its pretty clear that at the end of the day, Rimuru doesn't rely on Great Spirits (duality) to keep living and existing, regardless of Veldanava and Great Holy Spirit thing.


So yeah I wholeheartedly disagree for the removal of Non-Duality, in fact I do think it should be changed to Nature Type 2 instead since Rimuru 'trascending everything' shown superiority, although that might should be a topic for another thread.

It has been stated that Rimuru has merely surpassed Veldanava, and we know nothing of the context for this, so this is definitely not qualitative superiority over duality. I'm doubt even the Great Holy Spirit itself has it.

Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 3 instead.

In conclusion, I agree with this.

Veldora's resistance to CM is downgraded to Type 2.

If you agree that the Mobius Systemi no longer causes Conceptual Manipulation, why would Veldora still have a resistance to Conceptual Manipulation?

Non-Duality stays

I disagree for the reasons I have explained.

 

[CodeCCLL]

And there's that, I don't think anything should be changed by now. Contrary to @Codecll, I believe that Rimuru's resistance to CM1 shouldnt be deleted since it goes by different feat, by resisting his own ability (Turn Null).

What exactly do you mean here? I have two different ideas about this, but I'm not too sure about either of them.

 

[Catpija]

Gotta disagree with this, i still don't even understand why everyone keep misunderstanding what happened there, you also said it yourself



The problem with WN supporters merely using one statement that haven't been consistent in the series or whatever and used to create a chain of inconsistenties, WN rimuru profile was a land of lies, firstly it was said he survived the destruction of the multiverse whereas not even the universe was destroyed (in a literal sense)

...What is this supposed to prove again? I don't see how this "countered" my point. The destruction of the concept of time is an indirect result from disappearance of time, its as simple as that. Mobius System didn't directly affect the concept itself.

Secondly;
I countered your arguments on the last thread about who and what is holy spirit, even though it is Veldanava

My good man not everyone have good memories, you should at the very least restate it again or show which thread it was. Also, it didn't matter if Veldanava was or was not the Holy Spirit.

The one who made great spirits are two different people like the LN, you also don't have anything to use to back up your statements merely saying he was in void+ he created the world have no mention to have created the great spirits

I never said anything about Veldanava creating the Great Spirit, you got it all wrong. The fact that Veldanava existed before the world creation, which happen at the same time when Great Spirits born, already shown that he predates Great Spirits which is already Non-Duality.

We still accept it as Veldanava creating the World and Turn Null thus has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 but there is still no convincing proof that Veldanava and the Holy Spirit are the same beings.

We know that the formless form of the World was formed from the duality of the Great Spirit of Darkness and the Great Spirit of Light that preceded the World itself, and then it is mentioned that the Great Spirit of Time, the child of the Great Spirit of Darkness and Light, brought time to the World, but that the World was formed by the Great Spirit of Light and Darkness It is not stated who shapes the World formless and temporarily existence, and it is also said that Veldanava created the World. If we combine what has been given to us so far it is most probably Veldanava who shapes the World with Turn Null.

So it is really Veldanava who creates the World, but Veldanava is not the Great Holy Spirit and has no relationship with other Great Spirits, especially the Great Spirit of Darkness and Light.

I never said anything about Veldanava being the one who created Great Spirits, because you don't need to "create " dualities to gain Non-Duality, you just need to predates it. Veldanava existed before the world creation, which happened at the same time ass the birth of Great Spirits. So in a sense, he did predates Great Spirits.

There isn't proof that Great Spirits did not exist at the end of space-time where Yuuki sent Rimuru. Yuuki has failed to influence anything beyond main universe, let alone influence the Great Spirits who embody all concepts in the entire multiverse.

I never said Yuuki did it. However, Rimuru did experience the end of the universe when Great Spirits no longer exist anymore, so he is infact fine despite the duality that govern reality is gone.

It has been stated that Rimuru has merely surpassed Veldanava, and we know nothing of the context for this, so this is definitely not qualitative superiority over duality. I'm doubt even the Great Holy Spirit itself has it.

No, it said that Rimuru "trascended" everything. GHS should also has it since it existed before Great Spirits.

In conclusion, I agree with this.

If you agree that the Mobius Systemi no longer causes Conceptual Manipulation, why would Veldora still have a resistance to Conceptual Manipulation?

Because he have it via Probability Manipulation. It stated that he can survive and move despite the destruction of concept of time due to Probability Manipulation.

 

[Catpija]

The argument regarding the identity of Great Holy Spirit being Veldanava isn't relevant at all, the argument for Non-Duality is that Veldanava existed before/predates the Great Spirits.

 

[Catpija]

What exactly do you mean here? I have two different ideas about this, but I'm not too sure about either of them.

Rimuru has resistance to his own ability due to Ciel's analysis

 

[Shiraito983]

agree with @Catpija argument about nonduality

 

[Tempestdragon6]

following

 

[CodeCCLL]

I never said anything about Veldanava being the one who created Great Spirits, because you don't need to "create " dualities to gain Non-Duality, you just need to predates it. Veldanava existed before the world creation, which happened at the same time ass the birth of Great Spirits. So in a sense, he did predates Great Spirits.

There is still no proof that Veldanava preceded the Spirit of Darkness and Light. We can only say that Veldanava was before the Great Spirit of Time and other Great Spirits because he shaped the formless and temporary form of the Earth with Turn Null and created the World we know, but as I said, there is nothing that makes Veldanava independent of Duality.

I never said Yuuki did it. However, Rimuru did experience the end of the universe when Great Spirits no longer exist anymore, so he is infact fine despite the duality that govern reality is gone.

There is not a single proof that Great Spirits no longer exist. This context means nothing.

No, it said that Rimuru "trascended" everything. GHS should also has it since it existed before Great Spirits.

Isn't it obvious that it was Yuuki who said this, and that Yuuki used it to explain that Rimuru was stronger than him, even though he had Veldanava's power? One could even say that it was a fancy way of explaining Rimuru's power, let alone that Yuuki's explanation was proof of qualitative superiority. If this was not Yuuki's explanation, but a statement used by the narrator to explain the case, then it would mean a lot more, but unfortunately this is not the case.

Rimuru has resistance to his own ability due to Ciel's analysis

I've thought about this too so I guess I agree, but I'm not sure the staff will agree with this and we need to at least bring in the scans to prove it.

Also, since the OP's suggestion in this thread has now been accepted by the staff, it is pointless to discuss it further here, I think, ask for this thread to be closed and make a new crt and we discuss other downgrades and upgrades.

 

[Catpija]

There is still no proof that Veldanava preceded the Spirit of Darkness and Light. We can only say that Veldanava was before the Great Spirit of Time and other Great Spirits because he shaped the formless and temporary form of the Earth with Turn Null and created the World we know, but as I said, there is nothing that makes Veldanava independent of Duality.

But there is though? Great Spirit of Light and Darkness arise at the same time as the world creation. Veldanava existed before that event.

There is not a single proof that Great Spirits no longer exist. This context means nothing.

All Great Spirit exist until the world comes to an end.

Isn't it obvious that it was Yuuki who said this, and that Yuuki used it to explain that Rimuru was stronger than him, even though he had Veldanava's power? One could even say that it was a fancy way of explaining Rimuru's power, let alone that Yuuki's explanation was proof of qualitative superiority. If this was not Yuuki's explanation, but a statement used by the narrator to explain the case, then it would mean a lot more, but unfortunately this is not the case.

No? Yuuki already saw Rimuru as someone who is stronger than him even before sending him to the 'End of Time and Space', its only when he found that Rimuru actually survives and manage to come back that he stated it. Also, I said that I'll bring the Nature Type 2 argument to another thread so I won't argue about the qualitative superiority here.

I've thought about this too so I guess I agree, but I'm not sure the staff will agree with this and we need to at least bring in the scans to prove it.

It was already accepted a long time ago.

Also, since the OP's suggestion in this thread has now been accepted by the staff, it is pointless to discuss it further here, I think, ask for this thread to be closed and make a new crt and we discuss other downgrades and upgrades.

I thought @Jordan wanted to hear my opinion? Even so, the staffs weren't aware of the opposition argument so maybe their evaluation may change.

Although, I guess I leave that decision to the OP to choose whether to continue this here or to another thread instead.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree

 

[CodeCCLL]

But there is though? Great Spirit of Light and Darkness arise at the same time as the world creation. Veldanava existed before that event.

It is not Veldanava but the Duality itself that creates the formless and temporary World that emerges from the duality of the Spirit of Darkness and Light. (I disagree and I don't think I need to explain any further about it.)

All Great Spirit exist until the world comes to an end.

The end of space-time and the end of the whole World are not the same thing, I don't know where you got that from. It is also quite strange that you claim that there are no Great Spirits who embody the concepts on World, which consists of several parallel universes, at the end of the space-time of a single universe.

No? Yuuki already saw Rimuru as someone who is stronger than him even before sending him to the 'End of Time and Space', its only when he found that Rimuru actually survives and manage to come back that he stated it

When Yuuki sent Rimuru to the end of Space-Time, he was sure that Rimuru could not come back, so when he saw Rimuru again, he could not believe it and referred to him as a Transcendent God because Rimuru, Yuuki already had the power of God, but even so, Rimuru had get beyond anything he could do.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Since the arguments are now back and forth and changes have already been applied, what conclusion are we looking at
Since the concept of time was removed via chain reaction and not directly it will end up (Not) being CM2, is this correct?
For the Veldanava shenanigans, i @CodeCCLL and i have already cleared all those misunderstanding, further arguments about it won't be discussed
Turn null remains CM1 but highly doubt rimuru resistance against it, because turn null isn't an ability from rimuru himself so you need to show how he resist it directly