TenSura Upgrade [WN]

[Astral_Trinity439]

Since the last thread was successful, lets go over a WN revision now, shall we
Please refrain from being toxic, and refrain from derailing the thread, we want a meaningful discussion here!
Now lets start with the thread, this will be quite long for some, so please bear with it

Introduction :​

First, this thread, where Rimuru's Nonduality Type 1 and NEP1 got downgraded. But the OP didn't even try to bring the possible counter arguments and counter proof for it. The reason of the downgrade was that "Veldanava is not the Holy Spirit, so Rimuru transcending him isn't Nondual AND End of the World is not the End of Great Spirits".

The problem is with the latter part, from which most of the downgrade are originated, that if End of the World is the End of Great Spirits or not. And that will be proved in this thread [that it is].

Rimuru's NEP was also argued of not being actual NEP as it was just injecting energy, however, that has a specific context in-verse which was disregarded completely, even though it was already present in the General Concept Blog [WN]

Arguments from previous thread

Snip
Summary : As EOST[End of Space-Time] is not the End of Great Spirits, and thus neither the Dual Spirits, Rimuru loses his his Nonduality [Type 1]. Similarly, his reasoning for NEP is basically injecting energy into his Body, which is not NEP by itself, and thus should be removed.

Counter Arguments​

In the old translation, it said "Until a new Great Spirit is born, erasing all", which we can see was obviously false. However, that doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the World, this "Cycle of Life and Death of Spirits" will end.

Then, the world is filled with light and covered with darkness.
New spirits are born and disappear. Life and death. Until that time when the world will one day come to an end. - Raw

Now, how does this relate? Well, this Cycle is produced due to Spirits parting from the Original Masses of Energy, the Great Spirits, they than become impure which leads to them becoming monsters.
So to say, the reason why this cycle exists is because the Great Spirits exist. And as a result, the only plausible reason why this would stop at the End of the World, is if the Great Spirits are destroyed too. Because if the Great Spirits are not unaffected, this cycle, which is produced by them, will not be affected either.

Note that, this can't be something like "they just decided to stop the cycle by themselves" because the Great Spirits do not have any ego or will of their own, they are just Egoless masses of energy, "Pure energy" and a fully Conceptual Existence. So once again, the only plausible reasoning is that they too end at the End of the World.

Additional arguments are that the End of the World is when the World looses ALL of its Energy, where Great Spirits are literally made of Energy. So to say, if the World itself looses "All" of its energy, it would be logical to conclude that all the existences made of energy, which include the great spirits, will end.

So to say, the End of the World is still the End of Great Spirits, and all the abilities that Rimuru lost from it, including his Nonduality Type 1 and resistance to CM1, should be re-given.
______________________________________________________________

--Upgrades--​

Upgrade 1 : Nonduality
We already know from above that with End of Space-Time being what it is, Rimuru should be given back his Nonduality Type 1. However, lets add more context to this.

First off, the Duality of Light and Dark are not only Universal, as they existed before and hold over all of the World itself, but, they also derive all the other relations from them, such as the relation between Demon and Angels, Nonexistence and Existence, Regeneration and Destruction, Purify and Conceal and possibly more. That is to say, the Great Spirit of Light and Dark are the Origin that give birth to many more opposite relations. Additionally, the Great Spirits are what formed the World, they encompass the whole World, as they existed before it, the Light fills the World and the World is covered by Darkness, this shows that they are a general duality encompassing the whole verse on an entirely conceptual level, not specific to a universe or relation, the Ying and Yang Duality. I quote something that Glassman said

If there’s more than one duality that exists and it extends across reality it’s type 2. You don’t need “all dualities” to be spelled out for you to get type 2. --- Source and 2nd Source from where I got this quote, where similar arguments were used [Note : This is not to be taken as a targeting of any form to another verse, I'm merely giving the source of my argument]

Furthermore, True Dragons are beings that possess both Light[Holy/Divine] and Dark[Demonic/Monster] Attributes at the same time, which is confirmed in both the Raw and by the translator separately. This means they exist in a state where they are both sides of the general duality at the same time, so to say, they are Nondual Type 2, and even if not Type 2, at least Type 1. Furthermore, I quote the Nonduality Page, because existing in a state of both sides of the duality is Nondual, as said in the definition on the page itself :

General Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against all attacks and haxes that don't also possess this level of nonduality, though characters scaling to more logical states than the ones mentioned can bypass this immunity.

Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers.

And we already know that the Duality of Light and Dark has the following

• It is Conceptual in Nature
• It covers the whole World, which consists of several parallel Universes and many Dimensions.

Additionally, From the above most scans, we know that Light and Dark are a Duality, so the End of the World, lacking Great Spirits, will lack both sides of a duality, as a result, be something that is not "A"[Ying] nor "Not A"[Yang], a Nondual Existence, and so will Rimuru as well, who survived in that place unaffected and unharmed in that state of Nondual Existence, which means he is neither of the Dualities at the same time.

Note that, we treat being two states at the same time as a whole another state, as said in the definitions :

Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers

However, Rimuru's state is not just "Both"[True Dragon] or "Neither"[End of the World], instead, he is both a True Dragon and still survived at the End of Space-Time while being that at the same time. So to say, he is in a state where he is not "A", nor "Not A", nor "Both A AND Not A"[Where both A and Not A exist at the same time], nor "A NAND Not A"[Negation of the third state, where neither A nor Not A exist], but existing in a state where he is the combination of the last two, being "Both A AND Not A, AND A NAND Not A" , thus existing in a 5th Dual state of being.

[Note : AND is a logical operator which denotes that both sides must be true at the same time, while NAND, its negation, says both sides must be false at the same time]

Logically, it'll be :
∧ = and/both at once
¬ = not/negation
A = Light/Yang
¬A = Darkness/Ying
A ∧ ¬A = True Dragons (they are both state are the same time)
¬ (A ∧ ¬A) = End of the World (Neither of the Great Spirits exist at the end of Space and Time)
(A ∧ ¬A) ∧ [¬ (A ∧ ¬A)] = Rimuru (Is both a True Dragon[3rd state], and at the same time, also survived at the End of Space-Time[5th state])
Thus, Rimuru's state cannot be defined by any logical combination[a combination of only two variables, A and ¬A, it can't be Neither of them OR it can't be both of them], and needs a combination of operators between two more operators [(A ∧ ¬A) ∧ [¬ (A ∧ ¬A)]] to be represented.

Mathematically, it'll be :
∧ = and/both at once
¬ = not/negation
1 = Light/Yang
0 = Darkness/Ying
1 ∧ 0 = True Dragons (they are both state are the same time)
¬ (1∧ 0) = End of the World (Neither of the Great Spirits exist at the end of Space and Time)
(1 ∧ 0) ∧ [¬ (1 ∧ 0)] = Rimuru (Is both a True Dragon[3rd state], and at the same time, also survived at the End of Space-Time[5th state])
Thus, Rimuru's state cannot be defined by any logical combination[a combination of only two variables, A and ¬A, it can't be Neither of them OR it can't be both of them], and needs a combination of operators between two more operators [(1 ∧ ¬0) ∧ [¬ (1 ∧ ¬0)]] to be represented.

Additionally, Rimuru is called a Transcendent God that transcends everything, so possibly Transduality Type 3

Conclusive :

• All True Dragons are Nondual Type 2[to be agreed on], while Rimuru is Nondual [Possibly Transdual] Type 3.

Upgrade 2 : Nonexistent Physiology/Interaction​

We know from the previous that End of the World is the end of Great Spirits, however, Great Spirits also include the Great Spirit of Sky, which is the concept of Existence and Information. So, Rimuru would have Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2 and 4]. But.... there already exists a NEP1 Void in the World, which means the End of the World, being the destruction of everything, will instead be Nonexistent Nature Type 2 and so will Rimuru.

However, once again, lets add more context, major source is this thread, which was unfortunately closed, even though it was accepted by majority, because it somewhat involved Great Spirits previously :

Turn Null is the Nonexistence which remains after even the Void and its Negative energy [Conventional Nonexistence] as well as the Positive Energy[Existence], disappear and are brought to 0[Turn Null].

HOWEVER, in case this the End of the World argument is considered vague, we can use this :

Rimuru can inject his body with Turn Null, under normal cases, that'll just be a stat amplification, however, we have the following context :


Turn Null is an energy :

"The Ultimate and Supreme Ability――called『Turn Null』which produced the primordial energy needed to create a world. But in the end, it was impossible for him to recreate it.
Even if he could recreate that ability, he would only cause the energy to go amok and disappear if he didn’t create a world like Veldanava did. After all, 『Turn Null』, as indicated by its name, was pure and super dense energy that destroyed everything. A super-tier level ability that allowed the destruction of the existing world and even the creation of a new world. It was said that Veldanava lost『Turn Null』after he created this world, and he was left with『Magic Essence Breeder Reactor』"

~ Chapter 247

And a Spiritual Lifeform's body, such as Rimuru's, is made out of Energy, while they can also make clones made completely out of "Energy" :

"From the bottom of my body, I could feel a power gushing forth.
I seemed to exist as a mass of energy. As in this darkness full of saturated energy, energy that overflowed from my body might not leak out. How could I explain it so that it’s easy to understand? I couldn’t explain it well because I didn’t have the knowledge, but it was like crystallized sugar inside sugared water, I think that our existences were like that."

~ Intermission:Venom's Story

"Parallel Existence, kind of feels the most cheat-like.
Leaving his heart(nucleic core) within my body, and creating a clone using Energy. That is now possible.…."

~ Chapter 191

Therefore, Rimuru, when injecting Turn Null Energy into his body, is essentially replacing the normal "Energy" with the Nonexistent [Type 2] energy of Turn Null, and in that sense, making his own body out of Turn Null, which he should also be able to make a clone purely out of that energy, because energy is what makes up a clone as well.

Now, for the aspects :
We already know that Great Spirit of Sky is Information, which makes up everything, including Souls, Mind, and Skills. Additionally, Skills can also be turned to Energy. Concepts are also made out of Energy, stated again. Aspect Types :

• Type 1 : Spiritual Non-Existent : Great Spirit of Sky is information, and everything in TenSura is made up of information, including the soul and mind. As turn null exceeds information, and Rimuru survived after the concept of information[Great Spirit of Sky] was destroyed, meaning Rimuru's Information [in-verse] is non-existent, it means his Soul is also non-existent as souls are a lump of information.
• Type 2 : Conceptual Non-Existent : Same reason as before, unaffected by the destruction of the Great Spirit of Sky, Rimuru has Abstract Existence which now should be on NEP level.
• Type 3 : Mental Non-Existent : Soul and mind are made of information, furthermore, as stated in his profile, his "memories" are stored in his soul, which is non-existent. Resultantly, he gains this aspect type as well.
• Type 4 : Information : Obvious, but remains the same as before[Aspect Type 2].
• Type 5 : Others :He has multiple other things that are Non-existent, such as:
  • Energy : Great Spirits are "Pure Energy", while Turn Null is a "Void energy" that precedes and is non-existent to the great spirits.
  • Power : "Skills" that are essentially his "Powers and abilities", are made up of information, and inscribed within one's soul, as his information and soul are non-existent, his skills will be as well.

(Rimuru's memories are stored in his astral body, and as long as he retains his conscious soul and memory, he can be revived even when his body is completely damaged. In other words, he can think with his soul and is thus immune to mind control effects)

~ Resistances Tag for Demon Slime Key

Additionally, Great Spirit of Sky is the concept of Space as well, which means the End of Space-Time is the actual end of the conception of Space, as well as Time[Great Spirit of Time], and would thus lack both Space and Time, qualifying itself, as well as Rimuru who survived the destruction of those Spirits, Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1]. Veldora also survived it so he should be given so as well.

Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will. They are usually Acausal (Type 1) as a result of being outside of regular time.

Conclusion :

• Rimuru and Veldora are to be given Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1], whereas Rimuru is to be given Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5]
• Turn Null is a NEP2 energy and thus can effect NEP2 beings.

Final Conclusive :

• All True Dragons are Nondual Type 2[, while Rimuru is Nondual Type 3, Possibly Transduality Type 3
• Rimuru is to be given Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1], as well as Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5]
• Turn Null is a NEP2 energy and thus can effect NEP2 beings.
• Rimuru should be given Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 for surviving the destruction of the Great Spirits, which was removed previously.

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Agree

 

[ELITE127]

seems fine agree

 

[ELITE127]

seems fine agree.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

agree

 

[Wikisource]

Looks good

 

[Zhuo_Fan23345454]

Since the last thread was successful, lets go over a WN revision now, shall we
Please refrain from being toxic, and refrain from derailing the thread, we want a meaningful discussion here!
Now lets start with the thread, this will be quite long for some, so please bear with it

Introduction :​

First, this thread, where Rimuru's Nonduality Type 1 and NEP1 got downgraded. But the OP didn't even try to bring the possible counter arguments and counter proof for it. The reason of the downgrade was that "Veldanava is not the Holy Spirit, so Rimuru transcending him isn't Nondual AND End of the World is not the End of Great Spirits".

The problem is with the latter part, from which most of the downgrade are originated, that if End of the World is the End of Great Spirits or not. And that will be proved in this thread [that it is].

Rimuru's NEP was also argued of not being actual NEP as it was just injecting energy, however, that has a specific context in-verse which was disregarded completely, even though it was already present in the General Concept Blog [WN]

Arguments from previous thread

Snip
Summary : As EOST[End of Space-Time] is not the End of Great Spirits, and thus neither the Dual Spirits, Rimuru loses his his Nonduality [Type 1]. Similarly, his reasoning for NEP is basically injecting energy into his Body, which is not NEP by itself, and thus should be removed.

Counter Arguments​

In the old translation, it said "Until a new Great Spirit is born, erasing all", which we can see was obviously false. However, that doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the World, this "Cycle of Life and Death of Spirits" will end.



Now, how does this relate? Well, this Cycle is produced due to Spirits parting from the Original Masses of Energy, the Great Spirits, they than become impure which leads to them becoming monsters.
So to say, the reason why this cycle exists is because the Great Spirits exist. And as a result, the only plausible reason why this would stop at the End of the World, is if the Great Spirits are destroyed too. Because if the Great Spirits are not unaffected, this cycle, which is produced by them, will not be affected either.

Note that, this can't be something like "they just decided to stop the cycle by themselves" because the Great Spirits do not have any ego or will of their own, they are just Egoless masses of energy, "Pure energy" and a fully Conceptual Existence. So once again, the only plausible reasoning is that they too end at the End of the World.

Additional arguments are that the End of the World is when the World looses ALL of its Energy, where Great Spirits are literally made of Energy. So to say, if the World itself looses "All" of its energy, it would be logical to conclude that all the existences made of energy, which include the great spirits, will end.

So to say, the End of the World is still the End of Great Spirits, and all the abilities that Rimuru lost from it, including his Nonduality Type 1 and resistance to CM1, should be re-given.
______________________________________________________________

--Upgrades--​

Upgrade 1 : Nonduality
We already know from above that with End of Space-Time being what it is, Rimuru should be given back his Nonduality Type 1. However, lets add more context to this.

First off, the Duality of Light and Dark are not only Universal, as they existed before and hold over all of the World itself, but, they also derive all the other relations from them, such as the relation between Demon and Angels, Nonexistence and Existence, Regeneration and Destruction, Purify and Conceal and possibly more. That is to say, the Great Spirit of Light and Dark are the Origin that give birth to many more opposite relations. Additionally, the Great Spirits are what formed the World, they encompass the whole World, as they existed before it, the Light fills the World and the World is covered by Darkness, this shows that they are a general duality encompassing the whole verse, not specific to a universe or relation, the Ying and Yang Duality. I quote something that Glassman


Furthermore, True Dragons are beings that possess both Light[Holy/Divine] and Dark[Demonic/Monster] Attributes at the same time, which is confirmed in both the Raw and by the translator separately. This means they exist in a state where they are both sides of the general duality at the same time, so to say, they are Nondual Type 2, and even if not Type 2, at least Type 1. Furthermore, I quote the Nonduality Page, because existing in a state of both sides of the duality is Nondual, as said in the definition on the page itself :


And we already know that the Duality of Light and Dark has the following

• It is Conceptual in Nature
• It covers the whole World, which consists of several parallel Universes and many Dimensions.

Additionally, From the above most scans, we know that Light and Dark are a Duality, so the End of the World, lacking Great Spirits, will lack both sides of a duality, as a result, be something that is not "A"[Ying] nor "Not A"[Yang], a Nondual Existence, and so will Rimuru as well, who survived in that place unaffected and unharmed in that state of Nondual Existence, which means he is neither of the Dualities at the same time.

Note that, we treat being two states at the same time as a whole another state, as said in the definitions :

However, Rimuru's state is not just "Both"[True Dragon] or "Neither"[End of the World], instead, he is both a True Dragon and still survived at the End of Space-Time while being that at the same time. So to say, he is in a state where he is not "A", nor "Not A", nor "Both A AND Not A"[Where both A and Not A exist at the same time], nor "A NAND Not A"[Negation of the third state, where neither A nor Not A exist], but existing in a state where he is the combination of the last two, being "Both A AND Not A, AND A NAND Not A" , thus existing in a 5th Dual state of being.

[Note : AND is a logical operator which denotes that both sides must be true at the same time, while NAND, its negation, says both sides must be false at the same time]

Conclusive :

• All True Dragons are Nondual Type 2[to be agreed on], while Rimuru is Nondual Type 3.

Upgrade 2 : Nonexistent Physiology/Interaction​

We know from the previous that End of the World is the end of Great Spirits, however, Great Spirits also include the Great Spirit of Sky, which is the concept of Existence and Information. So, Rimuru would have Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2 and 4]. But.... there already exists a NEP1 Void in the World, which means the End of the World, being the destruction of everything, will instead be Nonexistent Nature Type 2 and so will Rimuru.

However, once again, lets add more context, major source is this thread, which was unfortunately closed, even though it was accepted by majority, because it somewhat involved Great Spirits previously :

Turn Null is the Nonexistence which remains after even the Void and its Negative energy [Conventional Nonexistence] as well as the Positive Energy[Existence], disappear and are brought to 0[Turn Null].

HOWEVER, in case this the End of the World argument is considered vague, we can use this :

Rimuru can inject his body with Turn Null, under normal cases, that'll just be a stat amplification, however, we have the following context :


Turn Null is an energy :

And a Spiritual Lifeform's body, such as Rimuru's, is made out of Energy, while they can also make clones made completely out of "Energy" :


Therefore, Rimuru, when injecting Turn Null Energy into his body, is essentially replacing the normal "Energy" with the Nonexistent [Type 2] energy of Turn Null, and in that sense, making his own body out of Turn Null, which he should also be able to make a clone purely out of that energy, because energy is what makes up a clone as well.

Now, for the aspects :
We already know that Great Spirit of Sky is Information, which makes up everything, including Souls, Mind, and Skills. Additionally, Skills can also be turned to Energy. Concepts are also made out of Energy, stated again. Aspect Types :

• Type 1 : Spiritual Non-Existent : Great Spirit of Sky is information, and everything in TenSura is made up of information, including the soul and mind. As turn null exceeds information, and Rimuru survived after the concept of information[Great Spirit of Sky] was destroyed, meaning Rimuru's Information [in-verse] is non-existent, it means his Soul is also non-existent as souls are a lump of information.
• Type 2 : Conceptual Non-Existent : Same reason as before, unaffected by the destruction of the Great Spirit of Sky, Rimuru has Abstract Existence which now should be on NEP level.
• Type 3 : Mental Non-Existent : Soul and mind are made of information, furthermore, as stated in his profile, his "memories" are stored in his soul, which is non-existent. Resultantly, he gains this aspect type as well.
• Type 4 : Information : Obvious, but remains the same as before[Aspect Type 2].
• Type 5 : Others :He has multiple other things that are Non-existent, such as:
  • Energy : Great Spirits are "Pure Energy", while Turn Null is a "Void energy" that precedes and is non-existent to the great spirits.
  • Power : "Skills" that are essentially his "Powers and abilities", are made up of information, and inscribed within one's soul, as his information and soul are non-existent, his skills will be as well.

Additionally, Great Spirit of Sky is the concept of Space as well, which means the End of Space-Time is the actual end of the conception of Space, as well as Time[Great Spirit of Time], and would thus lack both Space and Time, qualifying itself, as well as Rimuru who survived the destruction of those Spirits, Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1]. Veldora also survived it so he should be given so as well.

Conclusion :

• Rimuru and Veldora are to be given Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1], whereas Rimuru is to be given Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5]
• Turn Null is a NEP2 energy and thus can effect NEP2 beings.

Final Conclusive :

• All True Dragons are Nondual Type 2[, while Rimuru is Nondual Type 3
• Rimuru is to be given Beyond Dimensional Existence [Type 1], as well as Nonexistent Physiology [Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5]
• Turn Null is a NEP2 energy and thus can effect NEP2 beings.
• Rimuru should be given Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 for surviving the destruction of the Great Spirits, which was removed previously.

 

[Zhuo_Fan23345454]

Seems right, so agree

 

[KayKay5637G]

Agree

 

[Shiraito983]

the reasoning seem fine at first glance, but I'm not that knowledgeable on wn so ill just keep watching this

 

[Georredannea15]

Nah it's type 1, because Yin and Yang only contain the duality of light and darkness on a conceptual level. That's type 1 (specific duality). Also in ND type 3 "plural logic states" is not like that.

In short, I agree with ND type 1 and I didn't know why it was removed from Rimuru. I have my doubts about the dragons taking these, they are not independent and transcendent of light and darkness.

Neutral on NEP, but for nothingness to disappear and become a deeper nothingness would still be type 1 instead of type 2, because type 2 means to be completely lack of the dual states of being, that is, existence and non-existence. But IDK, so neutral.

Also, transcendence in ND has to be "qualitative". That is, your power level must be equal to the higher dimension at this level. So, just ND type 1 because it's a specific duality.

Btw the page is no longer divided into TD and ND, just ND. I don't understand why this revision proposes TD. Think of the old TD as ND, just a bit more restricted.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Spoiler: Threads

non-duality asepct Type 2, upgrade for Slime

disclaimer i wrote non controversial because i dont hop in from nothing and start making upgrades without specific evidences and am willing to make necessary sacrifices to create this thread, like time and effort. about Non-duality the thing about non-duality type 2 is being above every duality...

vsbattles.com

Removing some unjustified abilities of Rimuru tempest (WN)

as discussed with the supporters on discord, we have agreed rimuru tempest WN have unjustified abilities on his profile wss which is causing unnecessary misunderstanding between the supporters and the opponents or just it being generally misunderstood, i did have a downgrade thread with my...

vsbattles.com

My comments on these threads are still valid, the only difference between this thread and other threads is that this thread has more out-of-context scans that do not prove what it claims, it is presented with a pile of words that have no basis.

Personally, I think ND Type 2 for Holy Spirit is good, but it wasn't accepted when Rimuru scaled to Holy Spirit, so I don't agree with anything since Rimuru doesn't scale to Holy Spirit anymore.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Nah it's type 1, because Yin and Yang only contain the duality of light and darkness on a conceptual level. That's type 1 (specific duality). Also in ND type 3 "plural logic states" is not like that.

In short, I agree with ND type 1

It is on a conceptual level and also encompasses the whole world, other relations birth from it, like Positive and negative energy which causes existence to expand and to collapse respectively, angels and demons[which are also conceptual existences], etc. At the start there was purely nothing, "nothingness" that was the holy spirit, the source of power that just existed, than from it birthed forth the Great Spirits including the duality of ying and yang, the balancing conceptual dualities, they are what formed the world itself

and I didn't know why it was removed.

It was previously argued that "The end of the world is not the end of great spirits", but no one really cared to counter it back than it seems.

Also, transcendence in ND has to be "qualitative". That is, your power level must be equal to the higher dimension at this level. So, just ND type 1 because it's a specific duality.

Thought so, but well, I thought "might as well try, no harm in doing so" so mentioned as a possibility, I'm fine with it being nonduality instead.

Btw the page is no longer divided into TD and ND, just ND. I don't understand why this revision proposes TD. Think of the old TD as ND, just a bit more restricted.

There is just not a different section for them, but they are still explained there if you read thoroughly

Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level. Though this power renders them immune to effects intermediated through the dualities in question, characters with certain forms of Causality Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Law Manipulation, or Mathematics Manipulation could potentially bestow these dualities on them, which would remove their nondual nature and render them vulnerable to attacks governed by the dualities. On the other hand, characters with transduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I didn't know why it was removed from Rimuru.

Rimuru's Nonduality was based on him scaling to the Holy Spirit, which precedes the dualities that make up creation. We no longer scale the Holy Spirit to anyone so Rimuru no longer has Nonduality.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Spoiler: Threads

non-duality asepct Type 2, upgrade for Slime

disclaimer i wrote non controversial because i dont hop in from nothing and start making upgrades without specific evidences and am willing to make necessary sacrifices to create this thread, like time and effort. about Non-duality the thing about non-duality type 2 is being above every duality...

vsbattles.com

Spoiler: Threads

Although the other one is not too long, but this one is, so please link to your specific post

My comments on these threads are still valid, the only difference between this thread and other threads is that this thread has more out-of-context scans that do not prove what it claims, it is presented with a pile of words that have no basis.

Your basis of ALL of arguments on the second thread[that you linked] was the following :

Rimuru's fusing of his body with void energy is still technically valid for NEP Nature 1, but I agree with removing NEP 1 since the rest of the series never once includes an extra statement about Rimuru having a non-existent nature. In particular, the Nature of NEP, which resulted in non-interaction, was not mentioned even once. For example, even characters who did not have any manipulate or interaction on nothingness could easily interact with him.

Expect, that is not really necessary because Rimuru's body in the World is a clone, while his true body exists in Imaginary Space. He also doesn't have Turn Null infused all the time, so this doesn't really debunk anything

The basic logic here is that the concept of time that can be absorbed by the Beelzebub/Mobius System is not the Great Spirit of Time itself, which is a multiversal type 1 time concept, but a type 2 time concept, which is a universal part of it, since other dimensions and therefore universes are not affected as a result of its disappearance.

This is not something I mentioned in this thread so I'll ignore it, but still copied it here for the sake of it.

In conclusion:

•Yuuki and Rimuru's Beelzebub and Veldora's own Conceptual Manipulation are downgraded from Type 1 to Type 2.
•Veldora and Rimuru's Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 is downgraded to Type 2.
•Via Turn Null, Rimuru still has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.
•Rimuru's Nonexistent Physiology and Nonduality are completely removed.

Simply basing of your previous reasoning, which debunks completely nothing.

In order to destroy the concept of time, technically the entire spacetime continuum has to be destroyed, but here it is said that the concept of time will disappear only when the expansion rate of the universe stops. I agree that this is not conceptual manipulation, and you could probably even argue that the disappearance of the concept of time means that the concept of time loses its meaning and that this is just fancy language because nothing happens to the real concept of time, which is indeed more logical than discript the concept of time into universal and multiversal.

Because it was already established in the WN that Space losing its expanding property : It looses its concept of time[though I'm not arguing for Conceptual manipulation based off this argument. And its already established in the OP of this thread that EOST is the end of great spirits as well.

We still accept it as Veldanava creating the World and Turn Null thus has Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 but there is still no convincing proof that Veldanava and the Holy Spirit are the same beings.

We know that the formless form of the World was formed from the duality of the Great Spirit of Darkness and the Great Spirit of Light that preceded the World itself, and then it is mentioned that the Great Spirit of Time, the child of the Great Spirit of Darkness and Light, brought time to the World, but that the World was formed by the Great Spirit of Light and Darkness It is not stated who shapes the World formless and temporarily existence, and it is also said that Veldanava created the World. If we combine what has been given to us so far it is most probably Veldanava who shapes the World with Turn Null.

So it is really Veldanava who creates the World, but Veldanava is not the Great Holy Spirit and has no relationship with other Great Spirits, especially the Great Spirit of Darkness and Light.

I am not basing my argument on that Rimuru transcended Veldanava, so this doesn't do anything, nor is the argument for Veldanava.

It has been stated that Rimuru has merely surpassed Veldanava, and we know nothing of the context for this, so this is definitely not qualitative superiority over duality. I'm doubt even the Great Holy Spirit itself has it.

The same as above, and I already admitted in my previous comment that it is not qualitative so no Transdual stuff, only nondual, I merely added a "possibly transdual" in the OP for the sake of "well, there's nothing wrong in trying"

Personally, I think ND Type 2 for Holy Spirit is good, but it wasn't accepted when Rimuru scaled to Holy Spirit, so I don't agree with anything since Rimuru doesn't scale to Holy Spirit anymore.

I never scaled Rimuru to holy spirit, this is basically you telling me you didn't read the OP.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Rimuru's Nonduality was based on him scaling to the Holy Spirit, which precedes the dualities that make up creation. We no longer scale the Holy Spirit to anyone so Rimuru no longer has Nonduality.

Except I am not using the holy spirit in this argument saying that "Rimuru scales to holy spirit" -_-
please read the OP before coming to conclusions

 

[Georredannea15]

It is on a conceptual level and also encompasses the whole world, other relations birth from it, like Positive and negative energy which causes existence to expand and to collapse respectively, angels and demons[which are also conceptual existences], etc. At the start there was purely nothing, "nothingness" that was the holy spirit, the source of power that just existed, than from it birthed forth the Great Spirits including the duality of ying and yang, the balancing conceptual dualities, they are what formed the world itself

And yeah, it's type 1 yin and yang (so, just light and darkness.) The fact that it is conceptual does not change anything because what is called "duality" has to be conceptual anyway

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

And yeah, it's type 1 yin and yang (so, just light and darkness.) The fact that it is conceptual does not change anything because what is called "duality" has to be conceptual anyway

it encompasses over the whole cosmology
and births forth other relations from it, like angels/demons[conceptual beings], positivity/negativity etc
there's another duality, existence and nonexistence, but the duality of light and dark existed even before that

Not to target any verse in particular, but I'm basing my argument from here as the staff agreed to it. Again, I'm not targeting anyone else here, I merely came across it while scrolling through threads today and found it interesting

 

[CodeCCLL]

please read the OP before coming to conclusions

I've already read the OP, you're going out of context when commenting on the scans, I'll go through them all one by one if I have time.

Furthermore, True Dragons are beings that possess both Light[Holy/Divine] and Dark[Demonic/Monster] Attributes at the same time, which is confirmed in both the Raw and by the translator separately. This means they exist in a state where they are both sides of the general duality at the same time, so to say, they are Nondual

Also it's not even a duality. Every opposing force or attribute isn't daulity.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I think I'll try to get permission to create a staff discussion for this, I don't have time to respond to currently unfounded assumptions.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I've already read the OP, you're going out of context when commenting on the scans, I'll go through them all one by one if I have time.

sure

Also it's not even a duality. Every opposing force or attribute isn't daulity.

Existence and Nonexistence is a duality

For this ability, dualities refer to logical dualities where the duality is between "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. For example, fire and water are not a duality; the duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void - Source

Not everything needs to be stated in verse to be a duality. Sure, things like "fire and water" are not normally duality, but existence and nonexistence are

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I think I'll try to get permission to create a staff discussion for this, I don't have time to respond to currently unfounded assumptions.

Sure, tho, I once again quote glass

If there’s more than one duality that exists and it extends across reality it’s type 2. You don’t need “all dualities” to be spelled out for you to get type 2. --- Source and 2nd Source

 

[Georredannea15]

it encompasses over the whole cosmology
and births forth other relations from it, like angels/demons[conceptual beings], positivity/negativity etc
there's another duality, existence and nonexistence, but the duality of light and dark existed even before that

Not to target any verse in particular, but I'm basing my argument from here as the staff agreed to it. Again, I'm not targeting anyone else here, I merely came across it while scrolling through threads today and found it interesting

The fact that angels and demons or existence and non-existence are in the verse does not mean that there is a duality. It does not. The fact that these are conceptual beings does not imply duality. Also, existence and non-existence are not at the conceptual level in the verse, and even if they were, it would not be assumed as a duality.

A single duality can encompass the whole cosmology.

The only thing expressed in the verse as a binary concept and corresponding to yin-yang is light and darkness, from which existence and non-existence and angels and demons are derived.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The fact that angels and demons or existence and non-existence are in the verse does not mean that there is a duality. It does not. The fact that these are conceptual beings does not imply duality. Also, existence and non-existence are not at the conceptual level in the verse, and even if they were, it would not be assumed as a duality.

Existence is Great Spirit of sky, which is a concept. The Void/nonexistence is also an energy[negative energy], and concepts in tensura are made of energy
Existence-Nonexistence is already stated to be a duality on our page

For this ability, dualities refer to logical dualities where the duality is between "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. For example, fire and water are not a duality; the duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void - Source

Additionally, we already have a few examples of Ying and Yang along qualifying for a general duality, and if you read the thread I linked, you have already seen that an all-encompassing Ying-Yang duality is enough to be considered a general duality as accepted by the staff [not targeting, again, I'm only saying the fact that it is acceptable by staff]

 

[Georredannea15]

Existence is Great Spirit of sky, which is a concept. The Void/nonexistence is also an energy[negative energy], and concepts in tensura are made of energy
Existence-Nonexistence is already stated to be a duality on our page

That's not what your scans say. Most of them are empty statements without wording and context, mostly your own interpretations

Additionally, we already have a few examples of Ying and Yang along qualifying for a general duality, and if you read the thread I linked, you have already seen that an all-encompassing Ying-Yang duality is enough to be considered a general duality as accepted by the staff [not targeting, again, I'm only saying the fact that it is acceptable by staff]

Existence-nonexistence is a duality, but it "depends on the verse." Like Yin-Yang. It is also not assumed that Yin-Yang encompasses general dualities by default, again, the verse has to explain this. Other than that, it's just type 1. And also, "different verses, different contexts."

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

That's not what your scans say. Most of them are empty statements without wording and context, mostly your own interpretations

Great Spirit of sky is the concept of existence. The Void/nonexistence is also an energy[negative energy], and concepts in tensura are made of energy
Existence-Nonexistence is already stated to be a duality on our page
There, I've linked the specific scans for which you said "most of them are empty statements, mostly your interpretation". Although, in the end, all of these were already in the OP

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nonduality?so=search#:~:text=The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void
Existence-nonexistence is a duality, but it "depends on the verse."

The Nonduality page itself says it

or this ability, dualities refer to logical dualities where the duality is between "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. For example, fire and water are not a duality; the duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void. However, not all verses follow this logic, and many may treat things not logically considered dualities - such as water and fire or time and space - as dualities, meaning what is and isn't a duality can change between verses. Due to nonduality's nature as an abstract power, qualifying for it requires a verse to directly explain the way they treat a power in a way that aligns with the standards outlined below; merely demonstrating qualities matching those of a nondual character doesn't automatically qualify a character for it.

It specifically mentions that existence-nonexistence is a duality, the "depends on the verse" is for what are not normally considered dualities, like fire and water for example.

Like Yin-Yang. It is also not assumed that Yin-Yang encompasses general dualities by default, again, the verse has to explain this. Other than that, it's just type 1.

An all-encompassing Ying-Yang duality is enough to be considered general, I've already given you an example thread where the staff agreed with even less context of Ying-Yang duality. So what you're arguing is not said in the nonduality page nor by staff[unless you have a quote and its source], whereas mine has a backing of staff agreeing to it, one agreeing to full-blown, the other to possibly, but both are positive[agreeing] in the end[although in an alternate thread]

And also, "different verses, different contexts."

Due to that, I've read all the pages provided as context of them being Transdual Type 2, and the only thing related to duality what I found is "Good and Evil", and the reason/context provided in scans for their Transduality is "they are both of it at once, and transcendent of it" to summarize. Here, "Good[Yang] and Evil[Ying]" is literally being the general duality with that context. The only difference in this case[in regards to duality only] is that Ultimate gods are transdual, while this case is only nondual

I've already pinged multiple staff on their walls, and will be waiting for that.

If you want to argue that this context is not enough for ying and yang, than that is something to do with the standards instead, and that's something only staff can give actual input on.

 

[Georredannea15]

Great Spirit of sky is the concept of existence. The Void/nonexistence is also an energy[negative energy], and concepts in tensura are made of energy
Existence-Nonexistence is already stated to be a duality on our page
There, I've linked the specific scans for which you said "most of them are empty statements, mostly your interpretation". Although, in the end, all of these were already in the OP


The Nonduality page itself says it

It specifically mentions that existence-nonexistence is a duality, the "depends on the verse" is for what are not normally considered dualities, like fire and water for example.

An all-encompassing Ying-Yang duality is enough to be considered general, I've already given you an example thread where the staff agreed with even less context of Ying-Yang duality. So what you're arguing is not said in the nonduality page nor by staff[unless you have a quote and its source], whereas mine has a backing of staff agreeing to it, one agreeing to full-blown, the other to possibly, but both are positive[agreeing] in the end[although in an alternate thread]

Due to that, I've read all the pages provided as context of them being Transdual Type 2, and the only thing related to duality what I found is "Good and Evil", and the reason/context provided in scans for their Transduality is "they are both of it at once, and transcendent of it" to summarize. Here, "Good[Yang] and Evil[Ying]" is literally being the general duality with that context. The only difference in this case[in regards to duality only] is that Ultimate gods are transdual, while this case is only nondual

I've already pinged multiple staff on their walls, and will be waiting for that.

If you want to argue that this context is not enough for ying and yang, than that is something to do with the standards instead, and that's something only staff can give actual input on.

Lmao no, a duality system is already "obligatory" to cover the verse completely. This is not a valid argument, it's still type 1

Also TD cannot be discussed here because you need QS for that

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Lmao no, a duality system is already "obligatory" to cover the verse completely. This is not a valid argument, it's still type 1

where does it state a duality must cover the whole verse in all cases? For example, if there's a cosmology of a multiverse containing 2B universes, it is entirely possible for each of those universes[space-times] to have their own dual system. I don't know where you heard that.
I quote the page

Specific Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding one or more specific dual systems. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against attacks and haxes bound by the specific dual systems in question.

Where in this definition does it say those specific dual systems have to be on the entire level of reality?

Meanwhile, at this point you're just ignoring the proof I'm giving that a type of ying-yang duality encompassing the whole verse is enough to be considered general.

While in case of Type 2 Nonduality

General Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against all attacks and haxes that don't also possess this level of nonduality, though characters scaling to more logical states than the ones mentioned can bypass this immunity.

Also TD cannot be discussed here because you need QS for that

I didn't even argue for QS after the first comment, you're once again ignoring the entire context I gave about there being only Good-Evil duality and them still being Transdual type 2. The thing here to relate is not whether they are "Nondual or Transdual" but "Type 2", why did you even jump to the conclusion that I was comparing it for Transduality? I even at the end clarified the following :

while this case is only nondual

So you're simply taking this out of context

And once again, It doesn't seem you're planning to agree in any case unless a staff gives input, which I'll be waiting for.

 

[Georredannea15]

where does it state a duality must cover the whole verse in all cases? For example, if there's a cosmology of a multiverse containing 2B universes, it is entirely possible for each of those universes[space-times] to have their own dual system. I don't know where you heard that.
Meanwhile, at this point you're just ignoring the proof I'm giving that a type of ying-yang duality encompassing the whole verse is enough to be considered general.

Then first learn what duality is. Duality has to be primarily at the "conceptual" level, and a concept is something that by its very nature encompasses and affects all of reality. If there is a 2-B multiverse, for something to be a "duality" it has to encompass the entire cosmology.

And don't keep putting these damn other verses in front of me. "It happened in this verse" is not a valid argument.

I didn't even argue for QS after the first comment, you're once again ignoring the entire context I gave about there being only Good-Evil duality and them still being Transdual type 2. The thing here to relate is not whether they are "Nondual or Transdual" but "Type 2", why did you even jump to the conclusion that I was comparing it for Transduality? I even at the end clarified the following :

So you're simply taking this out of context

And once again, It doesn't seem you're planning to agree in any case unless a staff gives input, which I'll be waiting for.

Dude, can you please give me some of that stuff you're smooking? I need these

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Then first learn what duality is. Duality has to be primarily at the "conceptual" level, and a concept is something that by its very nature encompasses and affects all of reality. If there is a 2-B multiverse, for something to be a "duality" it has to encompass the entire cosmology.

None of what you're saying is backed up by the official page -_-

Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level.

They're clearly differentiating the "Specific, limited sets of dual distinctions" with "duality itself on a conceptual level".
At least, if you want me to believe you, quote a staff or a part of the definition page

And once again, where in the page does it say all dualities have to encompass the whole verse?
You for some reason seem to completely ignore this part of my previous reply

Specific Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding one or more specific dual systems. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against attacks and haxes bound by the specific dual systems in question.

General Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against all attacks and haxes that don't also possess this level of nonduality, though characters scaling to more logical states than the ones mentioned can bypass this immunity.

So, let me ask you, where, in specific nonduality, does it say those dual systems have to be encompass an entire level of reality? It mentions it in the General Nonduality but not Specific Nonduality.

You should check the Nonduality page itself before arguing, you're mentioning the standards [i.e., they always have to be conceptual, they always encompass the whole verse] whereas those points were never stated in the Nonduality page as that.

And don't keep putting these damn other verses in front of me. "It happened in this verse" is not a valid argument.

I'm giving you examples, you're simply ignoring them with "Its another verse, so its invalid argument" even without doing much so ever as reading the context

Dude, can you please give me some of that stuff you're smooking? I need these

Pardon?

 

[JackPoison]

Agree

 

[Georredannea15]

None of what you're saying is backed up by the official page -_-

They're clearly differentiating the "Specific, limited sets of dual distinctions" with "duality itself on a conceptual level".
At least, if you want me to believe you, quote a staff or a part of the definition page

And once again, where in the page does it say all dualities have to encompass the whole verse?
You for some reason seem to completely ignore this part of my previous reply


So, let me ask you, where, in specific nonduality, does it say those dual systems have to be encompass an entire level of reality? It mentions it in the General Nonduality but not Specific Nonduality.

You should check the Nonduality page itself before arguing, you're mentioning the standards [i.e., they always have to be conceptual, they always encompass the whole verse] whereas those points were never stated in the Nonduality page as that.

I'm giving you examples, you're simply ignoring them with "Its another verse, so its invalid argument" even without doing much so ever as reading the context

Pardon?

Dude, seriously, what do you think duality is? Whether it's specific duality or general duality. They all have to encompass all reality at the conceptual level.


What general duality is talking about is that there will be 2 or more dualities covering the whole reality and one character will be independent and unaffected by all of them. That's what "general duality" is. The only difference with type 1 is that in type 2 more than one duality covers the whole reality.

If something is not conceptual in the first place, then it cannot be in any way duality.

 

[Zeinx1]

I agree with ND type 1

 

[Mr_Sugabz]

Diss

 

[Verrel966]

Wtf? Something that is not included in the AoE of great spirits is the Nonduality System?

And before all, to be a system of duality these aspects must be proven to be a system that not only has opposing properties but is also connected to each other. Just because it has opposite properties, if the relationship between the two is not proven it will never be a system of duality.

And I think this has already been discussed, that the derivative aspects of the great spirits of darkness and light never qualified as classical logic.

Plus the fact that the derivative spirits of the great spirits do not all have contradictory natures means that they were never born as a system of duality in the first place.

 

[Aseka]

Why there's many bots agreeing?

 

[Catpija]

Why there's many bots agreeing?

*there're

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Dude, seriously, what do you think duality is? Whether it's specific duality or general duality. They all have to encompass all reality at the conceptual level.

Again, quote some line or two of the definition page on where it is saying that.
I've already done so, as in, quoted the lines, you're merely ignoring them once again.

If something is not conceptual in the first place, then it cannot be in any way duality.

And where in the definition page does it say that it has to be conceptual? I'm telling you to quote a line or two from there, what's the problem in that?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Wtf? Something that is not included in the AoE of great spirits is the Nonduality System?

Not all the great spirits, only the Great Spirit of Light and Darkness, Ying and Yang

And before all, to be a system of duality these aspects must be proven to be a system that not only has opposing properties but is also connected to each other. Just because it has opposite properties, if the relationship between the two is not proven it will never be a system of duality.

Literally stated to be Ying-Yang that can never interweave, please read the OP first

And I think this has already been discussed, that the derivative aspects of the great spirits of darkness and light never qualified as classical logic.

Link?

Plus the fact that the derivative spirits of the great spirits do not all have contradictory natures means that they were never born as a system of duality in the first place.

Already answered in OP

 

[Georredannea15]

Again, quote some line or two of the definition page on where it is saying that.
I've already done so, as in, quoted the lines, you're merely ignoring them once again.

And where in the definition page does it say that it has to be conceptual? I'm telling you to quote a line or two from there, what's the problem in that?

Then ask a knowledgeable admin about ND or TD, you are not a baby, go and find out for yourself then. I have never seen such an ignorant person

Also, just read this