TenSura Upgrade [WN]

[Astral_Trinity439]

I guess you won't understand the difference between the lack of existence and non-existence even if I explain it to you,

simple, when both conventional existence and nonexistence are destroyed at the same time, what remains is a nonexistence beyond the conventional sense

but anyway, I'm already neutral on NEP 2

sure

 

[Catpija]

Guess every humans should be ND2 since they're neither holy or demonic

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Guess every humans should be ND2 since they're neither holy or demonic

Humans are not Spiritual lifeforms to begin with
that's like saying there's a duality of fire-water but since rock is outside of that it should be nondual, don't try to Straw-man here when the two aren't even related

 

[Meli_Tempest]

Speaking in regards to this thread, where the slime's ND 1 was downgraded, it should be stressed that the entire thread was based on a blatant Author Death Fallacy, and I don't understand how it was allowed.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Speaking in regards to this thread, where the slime's ND 1 was downgraded, it should be stressed that the entire thread was based on a blatant Author Death Fallacy, and I don't understand how it was allowed.

It's obvious you're just looking at the OP instead of reading the comments in the thread.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Speaking in regards to this thread, where the slime's ND 1 was downgraded, it should be stressed that the entire thread was based on a blatant Author Death Fallacy, and I don't understand how it was allowed.

Well, it was not really entirely that, because it also involved a mistranslation

But because of the latter, no one tried to find counter proof for why EOST could still be end of great spirits [wn]

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Man, simply having opposite attributes doesn't grant you ND. Every human in my Xianxia verse have Yin Yang attributes in them, but they doesn't really have Non-duality.

You can get non-duality if you embodies or represent both dual nature at ideal (conceptual or laws) level and at its totality.

 

[Catpija]

Humans are not Spiritual lifeforms to begin with
that's like saying there's a duality of fire-water but since rock is outside of that it should be nondual, don't try to Straw-man here when the two aren't even related

Thats why fire-water isn't a duality in the first place.

A real duality wouldn't have anything outside of it, it will be either A or not A.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Thats why rock-water isn't a duality in the first place.

I said fire-water, not rock-water
Your argument is not implied by my statement at all.

A real duality wouldn't have anything outside of it, it will be either A or not A.

I used it as example, because its already stated in the definition page that a verse may have its own version of duality such as "Fire/Water" instead of "Fire/Non-Fire"

If you really want a real duality example, than consider this
In a setting, Ying-Yang is a duality, Ying is Evil and Yang is good, and a person can either be good or evil. But what about rocks? What about non-living and inanimate objects? Are they nondual? No, because the duality doesn't even apply to them to begin with!

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Man, simply having opposite attributes doesn't grant you ND. Every human in my Xianxia verse have Yin Yang attributes in them, but they doesn't really have Non-duality.

You can get non-duality if you embodies or represent both dual nature at ideal (conceptual or laws) level and at its totality.

True Dragons are Spiritual Lifeforms that are conceptual in nature

The Ying-Yang duality [Great Spirit of Light and Dark] are conceptual in nature as well

Well, if I had to make it down to specific, Spirits[Conceptual existences] are born when energy[which makes up concepts] is separated/cut out from the Great Spirits[masses of energy- also conceptual in nature], in this way, Conceptual existences Demons are born from the Great Spirit of Darkness[Ying] and vice versa for angels. But True Dragons are a highest tier Holy-Demonic Spirit at the same time, a walking contradiction

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

But True Dragons are a highest tier Holy-Demonic Spirit at the same time, a walking contradiction

They must represent duality in its totality.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

They must represent duality in its totality.

Are you referring Indivisible wholeness[all-in-one] state?
Edit : Anyways I'm gonna sleep so my next reply may come out late, GN

 

[Catpija]

I said fire-water, not rock-water
Your argument is not implied by my statement at all.

You know it was a typo lol, my point' still stand. Fire-water is not a duality so your example sucks

I used it as example, because its already stated in the definition page that a verse may have its own version of duality such as "Fire/Water" instead of "Fire/Non-Fire"

The keyword is "may", its not a general thing and verse-specific.

If you really want a real duality example, than consider this
In a setting, Ying-Yang is a duality, Ying is Evil and Yang is good, and a person can either be good or evil. But what about rocks? What about non-living and inanimate objects? Are they nondual? No, because the duality doesn't even apply to them to begin with!

Thats exactly why good-evil isn't neccesarily a duality.

 

[Catpija]

I can't believe this verse already in ruins just because I got inactive for few months

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Are you referring Indivisible wholeness[all-in-one] state?
Edit : Anyways I'm gonna sleep so my next reply may come out late, GN

They must represent all concept of holy and demonic in its entirety, not as attributes but the very foundation of the world itself.

 

[Ziplak]

 

[Caster_Ren]

It is called Void energy, but just because of that, we cannot assume its the same void energy as that of Nihilistic Banish
There is more context stating otherwise

• It is what remains when negative energy[void] and positive energy have turned to 0
• It precedes their existence as it precedes the entirely of the world

No,Turn Null still has Negative Energy within it,it can't be neither Positive Energy and Negative Energy when it has Negative Energy in it

 

[Reiner04]

Guess every humans should be ND2 since they're neither holy or demonic

Agree with this.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

No,Turn Null still has Negative Energy within it,it can't be neither Positive Energy and Negative Energy when it has Negative Energy in it

You have yet to show me where it was called "Negative Energy"

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

They must represent all concept of holy and demonic in its entirety, not as attributes but the very foundation of the world itself.

Concepts[in tensura] are made of energy, the great spirits are the same, Spirits are simply energy fragments of the Great Spirits. If, lets say, Ying[Light] as a whole are an energy, a demon would be something like a part of that mass separated from the original. The difference here is that one is a greater, original mass, the other is a fragment, what they embody or are, on a conceptual level, is still the same

 

[CodeCCLL]

Concepts[in tensura] are made of energy, the great spirits are the same, Spirits are simply energy fragments of the Great Spirits. If, lets say, Ying[Light] as a whole are an energy, a demon would be something like a part of that mass separated from the original. The difference here is that one is a greater, original mass, the other is a fragment, what they embody or are, on a conceptual level, is still the same

Therefore, Demons/Angels in WN must be type 1 concepts...

 

[Caster_Ren]

You have yet to show me where it was called "Negative Energy"

I never stated it was negative energy,i just stated that it has negative energy in it

 

[Fixxed]

This is absurd

Firstly, for have a duality. You must prove the two thing is not only contradict but also connected with each other. If one of the two vanished then the other thing get "vanished", because the two thing is define each other. One cannot exist if the other one dont

Second, for have type 2, you must have all normal concept that govern reality being a duality

And there are no in your proof that say that, yeah it say yin and yang, but it just fot light and darkness (bruh this already discussed in two thread and being rejected as far as i remember)

And there are no type 3 here. Bruhh.... not all both and neither state is 3 and 4 truth state, is only for duality state.

• "Lacking duality" or "not a duality" is not make you in neither state of duality. Concept law or information or plot by default is not a duality, but it not make them in the state of neither of duality. You must have some abstract thing that still connected to the system of duality, but in a state where it not a duality. A expansion system of duality
• For both of duality state, it mean you must have some abstract thing that mixed the duality into one state. Not exist as the two thing/duality

.........

And NEP 2, well just prove that nothingness doeasnt have even a nothingness, or a nothingness that lack of nothingness/idea of nothingness. Just some nothingness that more nothing will not make you have NEP 2

 

[Caster_Ren]

Concepts[in tensura] are made of energy, the great spirits are the same, Spirits are simply energy fragments of the Great Spirits. If, lets say, Ying[Light] as a whole are an energy, a demon would be something like a part of that mass separated from the original. The difference here is that one is a greater, original mass, the other is a fragment, what they embody or are, on a conceptual level, is still the same

They are not on the same Conceptual level

The fact that demons,spirits and angels don't govern anything put them in the lower conceptual level(even the lowest lol,they are only Concept Type 3)

 

[Catpija]

Notice how he starts to ignore my comment since he can't come up with any argument

 

[Rizkykarbit]

I

This is absurd

Firstly, for have a duality. You must prove the two thing is not only contradict but also connected with each other. If one of the two vanished then the other thing get "vanished", because the two thing is define each other. One cannot exist if the other one dont

Second, for have type 2, you must have all normal concept that govern reality being a duality

And there are no in your proof that say that, yeah it say yin and yang, but it just fot light and darkness (bruh this already discussed in two thread and being rejected as far as i remember)

And there are no type 3 here. Bruhh.... not all both and neither state is 3 and 4 truth state, is only for duality state.

• "Lacking duality" or "not a duality" is not make you in neither state of duality. Concept law or information or plot by default is not a duality, but it not make them in the state of neither of duality. You must have some abstract thing that still connected to the system of duality, but in a state where it not a duality. A expansion system of duality
• For both of duality state, it mean you must have some abstract thing that mixed the duality into one state. Not exist as the two thing/duality

.........

And NEP 2, well just prove that nothingness doeasnt have even a nothingness, or a nothingness that lack of nothingness/idea of nothingness. Just some nothingness that more nothing will not make you have NEP 2

I agree with this.

You cannot say that Yin - Yang represents the General duality without proving it, even with everything that governed by Great Spirit Darkness and Light, you need to prove at least two of them.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Therefore, Demons/Angels in WN must be type 1 concepts...

that would be a part of a latter upgrade after this, yes

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I never stated it was negative energy,i just stated that it has negative energy in it

Turn Null is what remains when even the void and its negative energy vanishes from the world

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Firstly, for have a duality. You must prove the two thing is not only contradict but also connected with each other. If one of the two vanished then the other thing get "vanished", because the two thing is define each other. One cannot exist if the other one dont

It being called Ying-Yang that can never intersect, but light fills the world and darkness covers it, is well enough to be called a Duality.

Second, for have type 2, you must have all normal concept that govern reality being a duality

And there are no in your proof that say that, yeah it say yin and yang, but it just fot light and darkness (bruh this already discussed in two thread and being rejected as far as i remember)

It is not. We already had Nonduality Type 1 accepted with Ying-Yang being a duality, the only reason it was removed was because of wrong translation at "End of the World" part which once again was given more context in this thread

I literally even gave a another thread as well as two more cases as an example, tho, that is, if someone cared to read the OP fully

There is no requirement like "all normal concept that govern reality being a duality" being a necessity, read Glassman's quote

And there are no type 3 here. Bruhh.... not all both and neither state is 3 and 4 truth state, is only for duality state.

Ying-Yang/Light-Dark are a duality, and as a result the both and neither are 3rd and 4th states. This debunks nothing

• "Lacking duality" or "not a duality" is not make you in neither state of duality. Concept law or information or plot by default is not a duality, but it not make them in the state of neither of duality. You must have some abstract thing that still connected to the system of duality, but in a state where it not a duality. A expansion system of duality
• For both of duality state, it mean you must have some abstract thing that mixed the duality into one state. Not exist as the two thing/duality

1- I never said it in that wording tho
2- Already proved in the OP
3- Same as 2nd point

And NEP 2, well just prove that nothingness doeasnt have even a nothingness, or a nothingness that lack of nothingness/idea of nothingness. Just some nothingness that more nothing will not make you have NEP 2

Your sentences are contradicting yourself, or maybe its just your grammar or a type -_-

Turn Null is what remains when both void and negative energy[conventional nonexistence] as well as the positive energy[existence] turn 0


All these arguments are already explained in the OP, and thus hold no ground

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

You cannot say that Yin - Yang represents the General duality without proving it, even with everything that governed by Great Spirit Darkness and Light, you need to prove at least two of them.

1- Make what you're trying to say more clear
2- Read Glassman's quote in the OP
3- Read the messages in the thread where those arguments were answered

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Notice how he starts to ignore my comment since he can't come up with any argument

I need not answer comments that are started from a strawman

 

[Caster_Ren]

Turn Null is what remains when even the void and its negative energy vanishes from the world

Are you really gonna ignore this?

"That’s because I extracted the negative energy from『Turn Null』that jammed life support and merged it into my kick.


After having a fit of violent coughs, Yuuki looked up to me with a dumbfounded expression."(Chapter 248)

 

[CodeCCLL]

Turn Null is what remains when even the void and its negative energy vanishes from the world

So where exactly is the part where it is explained (not assumed) that Turn Null lacks this duality of non-existence and existence?

Are you really gonna ignore this?

Definitely.

 

[Accelerator]

I disagree with the thread. The counters presented make more sense it also doesn't help that Astral ignores some counters.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

They are not on the same Conceptual level

The fact that demons,spirits and angels don't govern anything put them in the lower conceptual level(even the lowest lol,they are only Concept Type 3)

This was supposed to be for another upgrade but, lets just use it now
They are not the duality itself, why would they govern something, they are spawned from that duality -_-

True Dragons can exist before the World, such as Star King Dragon Veldanava, or survive the 'natural' end of the World, such as Veldora

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

So where exactly is the part where it is explained (not assumed) that Turn Null lacks this duality of non-existence and existence?

Definitely.

1- It existed before Ying-Yang
2- Negative energy clashes with positive energy, they cancel out each other and turn null

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Are you really gonna ignore this?

"That’s because I extracted the negative energy from『Turn Null』that jammed life support and merged it into my kick.


After having a fit of violent coughs, Yuuki looked up to me with a dumbfounded expression."(Chapter 248)

Referring to another "negative energy", does not mean it is the same as that which is used by demons, otherwise it would contradict the whole point of how even Veldanava lost Turn Null, the ability to create/destroy the World, and Yuuki failed to reproduce it, but Demons could use "negative energy"

 

[Caster_Ren]

This was supposed to be for another upgrade but, lets just use it now
They are not the duality itself, why would they govern something, they are spawned from that duality -_-

True Dragons can exist before the World, such as Star King Dragon Veldanava, or survive the 'natural' end of the World, such as Veldora

Yeah yeah,being Concept Type 1 without even governing something,seems good to me

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts.

 

[Caster_Ren]

Referring to another negative energy, otherwise it would contradict the whole point of how even Veldanava lost Turn Null, the ability to create/destroy the World, but Demons could use "negative energy"

It would contradict nothing
You said Negative Energy could disappear,then why would Turn Null not be the same?

 

[Catpija]

I need not answer comments that are started from a strawman

Nice concession.