Tengen Toppen Gurren Lagann and Granzeboma Revision

[Aeyu]

@Cal

Look at the scans above.

He created an entire universe with a set of different dimensional axes in space and time.

That DIRECTLY refers to spatiotemporal dimensions.

It was stated to be in between the MEMBRANES of the 10th and 11th dimensions - membranes generally refer to M-Theory.

By being safe, this is most likely the same kind of logic as how our universe is structured under the parameters of M-Theory:

It's a 10-D space with 1-D of time.

Therefore, Likely High 1-C

The TTGL bots are all comparable to TTGL, who created a Super Spiral Universe (the same kind the AS created) within its own body. That would also expand to STTGL, all the AS's forms, and Simon/GL.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Aeyu.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This scan?

@Ant

I have shown proof above, in that it was able to destroy the Anti-Spiral's full powered Giga Drill Break when even the preceding forms could not do so, and was empowered by the previous forms as well as by the dreams of humanity.

Additionally, in regard to the dimensional thing, I have received better scans from here:

If so, it doesn't even say they created it.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

There does not seem to be any evidence that they created a universe inside/between the 10th and the 11th dimensions. It almost seems like the universe already existed prior to the anti-spirals (or spirals) moving there.

So more proof is needed regarding the anti-spiral creating said universe exactly in the location between the 10th and 11th-dimensional space.

 

[Aeyu]

They may not say it there, but they *did* create the Super Spiral Universe, and TTGL is confirmed, by Gainax, to possess one within itself. That's honestly a pretty weak argument to try to cancel out the upgrade. Even if they didn't create it (which they did), AS and the rest still scale due to TTGL creating one within itself. Not to mention the Super Spiral Universe is directly linked to the AS's existence, as when the AS is defeated, the dimension collapses.

 

[Aeyu]

Not to mention, through digging, I found this, which actually solidifies the previously talked-about 2-A rating as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not to mention, through digging, I found this, which actually solidifies the previously talked-about 2-A rating as well.

We need more than just another name for it on a wiki...

 

[Aeyu]

Statements from that thread: "Even the Ashtanga warships in all their might are nothing compared to the Anti-Spirals main reality bending power. For starters, they created their own universe to hide their home world in, which is part of the reason they defeated all the other Spiral races in the galaxy. This pocket universe is inbetween the 10th and 11th dimensions."

I have already covered that it is clearly stated to be in between the membranes and not just the dimensions themselves, as shown above, which is clearly meant to represent M-Theory.

More scans:

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm really not seeing the issue. This is all really straightforward.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Aeyu, Matthew, and The Everlasting that a "At least 2-B, likely High 1-C" or "At least 2-B, possibly High 1-C" rating seems reasonable.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

I just wanted to check some more information about the Super Spiral Space, and the evidence that the Super Spiral Space contains the 10 and 11th dimensions.

From the points that I remember about the Multi-Dimensional thing, aren't these dimensions in the labyrinth just regular space-time continuums?

The Dai Gurren Team broke out of the entire thing, which probably gives them the 2-A rating, but the evidence of the Super Spiral Space containing the 10th and 11th dimension, I do not remember very well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because creating a pocket universe doesn't gain the tier of whatever it's bult on. Pretty sure that would make every pocket reality creator Low 2-C with the logic of using the structure it's built on + a temporal dimension. And it's widely agreed that being able to access higher dimensions doesn't give one a higher dimensional tier. There's a difference between creating a universe in the 10th dimension and creating a 10 dimensional universe. It's undoubtedly a tier 2 feat, but I'm very uncomfortable giving this tier 1 status. Plus, if they had the power over those dimensions, why create a universe to do that jazz when you have that power yourself?

The only thing that's tier 1 is TTGL's statement from Gainax.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Well, if a character is able to manipulate the boundaries of the 10th and 11th dimension in any sort of way, does this not mean that he can interact with the 10th/11th dimension?

Although for a High 1-C rating, this would require the two characters to actually exist in the 10th and 11th-dimensional space.

Was the place that TTGL and the Granzeboma were fighting in the 11-dimensional?

 

[Aeyu]

The Multiversal Labyrinth doesn't play into the dimensions thing. Maybe it could be 2-A, idk. I think that was already rejected. But the 10-11 dimensional membranes thing isn't part of the Multiversal Labyrinth's explanation, it's when Lordgenome is describing the nature of the Super Spiral Universe, which needs to be warped to through a portal created by SGGL before it becomes that.

The pocket universe may be referred to as that, but it is clearly shown to be universal if not larger in size, since STTGL is stated to be 52.8 billion light years tall by Gainax.

Also, I don't think they would have mentioned the universe containing a different set of dimensional axes if the universe created weren't higher dimensional in nature. Remember, it's on a dimensional *membrane* positioned between the 10th and 11th spatiotemporal dimensions. This, again, highly infers M-theory being used as the inspiration for that number, since 10 or 11 dimensions is the norm in Superstring theory, but it also likely, and likely is the operant word here, fits with that space (as it has a set of different dimensional axes) being a 10-D space with 1-D of time, as I have mentioned above.

@Khristis

Yes, they were fighting in the Super Spiral Universe's greater domain, which is the exact space said to possess 10 or 11 spatiotemporal dimensions. TTGL and Granzeboma also both each possess these Super Spiral Universes within themselves, with STTGL and Super Granzeboma possessing likely even more. This hints at the final Giga Drill Break struggle being indicative of each's total respective power, which is then extrapolated on when Simon defeats the AS, which leads to the Super Spiral Universe's destruction in its entirety.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If they destroyed anything outside of that Anti-Spiral universe on the 10-11 dimension, they'd be High 1-C, but until then, I say no. All I see is just being able to draw dots on more complex pieces of paper (reference to the analogy I made in my first post)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've also seen less speculatory things be rejected.

 

[Aeyu]

"I've seen less speculatory things be rejected"

Like what, exactly?

They WERE able to destroy things outside of dimension, though. That's the thing. If they used their power in the real universe, a mega-black hole would return everything to nothingness. Maybe they could escape it, but then you could argue the universe itself is 10-11 dimensional via M-theory. And it is a thing within physics that higher-dimensional black holes can possibly exist.

Just because they don't insta-gib the entire universe with that level of power doesn't mean that they don't have it.

I honestly don't see how that correlates to the 10-11 dimensional stuff at all.

Again, the rating is "Likely," not a straight High 1-C. To just throw this stuff out based on small nitpicks (that don't mostly add up, by the way) doesn't change its nature. Or else there's a whole lot of verses that would be getting downgraded.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Like what, exactly?"

I...kinda don't wanna say...

"I honestly don't see how that correlates to the 10-11 dimensional stuff at all."

What are you referring to with "that"?

"They WERE able to destroy things outside of dimension, though. That's the thing. If they used their power in the real universe, a mega-black hole return everything to nothingness."

They destroyed things on the 10-11 dimensional plane? Not just could or would, but did? Also, you should've led with returning everything to nothingness, because that's kind of a big deal...

"Again, the rating is "Likely," not a straight High 1-C. To just throw this stuff out based on small nitpicks (that don't mostly add up, by the way) doesn't change its nature. Or else there's a whole lot of verses that would be getting downgraded."

Yet I believe likely is too generous. Also, it's not small nitpicks, and most higher dimensional verses come from being higher dimensional, or creating something explicitly higher dimensional. It requires a lot of evidence to get a tier 1 tier, and imo, this isn't enough, creating a pocket universe on a 10-D world. If the pocket universe was 10-D, which is never stated, you'd have solid, undeniable ground.

 

[Aeyu]

If you're gonna go into the Bo-bobo stuff (idk if that was you or not, I don't remember now >~>)

Then it's like comparing apples and oranges. I admit that there probably isn't enough evidence for that, since higher dimensions aren't really mentioned, nor are dimensional axes. Just spatial dimensions.

Also, just in general. If it were just "between," the dimensions, I'd say you're 100% right.

But the thing is, they mention membranes, which are one of the key elements in M-theory.

The universe is directly stated to possess a different set of dimensional axes, which plugs right into the 10-11 dimensional statement, which also lines up with M-theory (being 10 or 11 dimensional)

Logic would dictate that because of that, it's a 10-D space with a single temporal dimension, which would mirror our own state of existing "in-between," the membranes of the 3rd and 4th dimensions, something which forms the manifold of what we know as the "space-time continuum". Hence the "Likely," and not a straight rating.

The universe, while referred to once as being a pocket one, is indeed universe sized, and is likely actually far larger than that. TTGL and STTGL and the others possess additional Super Spiral Universes within themselves.

And yes, they did. When the Super Spiral Universe is destroyed, they mention that that dimension has ceased to exist due to the AS's destruction.

Furthermore, if it "doesn't add up"...

The Super Spiral Universe has anomalous properties. Thought is turned into reality there. The only one who retained that level of power afterward was likely Simon, as he was compared to a God in the ending, and he absorbed STTGL's full power into himself.

Also yes, the Spiral Nemesis was stated to happen if one manifested the full potential of their abilities in realspace, an event which would turn everything into a non-existent void.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm rewatching the series. I'll get back to you when I get to the good stuff. Also, I wasn't in the Bo-bobobo stuff ovo

 

[Aeyu]

I've already shown a respect thread above linking screenshots from the official subs. If that isn't good enough, I don't know what is.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I read it. Don't get me wrong. I'm just tying to get confirmation on your claim of if they unleaded their true power on the real world, truly everything would be destroyed, because that would be grounds for a solid High 1-C without this pocket universe stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps somebody should ask Azathoth to respond here? He is very good at analysing these sorts of issues.

 

[Aeyu]

So, I can confirm that the above scans are indeed legitimate, as Crunchyroll (As legit as you can get) says the exact same thing.

Also, the pocket universe statement means nothing when its space is larger than our own universe. Feats > Statements, amirite?

Before you say "oh it's just feelings,"

That was the way they were able to isolate Nia's ring in the higher dimension, regardless of its composition or nature.

They then go on to state that they can warp to that time-space no matter what the nature.

 

[Crzer07]

in the meantime we still havent given simon his earlier key stats.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that this seems reliable, but it might be best to ask Azathoth for a confirmation.

 

[Antvasima]

@Crzer07

What do you mean?

 

[Aeyu]

Here's even more scans from Crunchyroll, solidifying the 10 and 11th dimensional thing.

I think it is VERY apparent that it is meant to be M-Theory, as, watching it, it seems to go into how higher dimensions overlap our own space and time.

 

[Crzer07]

pre-time skip simon should be at least high 6-A for being able to hold his own against lordgenome and defeated him by using his drill to drill a hole into his body. post-time skip simon with tengen toppa lagan would be At least Low 2-C, likely High 1-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Aeyu]

Tengen Toppa Lagann is covered. He is likely more powerful without it, as he retained his power into the future.

The only one needed is the High 6-A key.

 

[Crzer07]

hrm... and i think the scans is sufficient enough information to hint at or allude to M-theory. If even stated by Gainax then it is intentionally implied regardless whether or not they are knowledgable on the subject matter. DarkLK concerns are resolved, just need azathoth to double check.

 

[Crzer07]

he is more powerful after gaining IBBS courtesy of lordgenome, and also the rest of the crew when he distributed the power. so they could all scale to simon albeit only for a very brief moment before they "gattai" into STTGL.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Those scans that Aeyu showed that imply that they were able to maneuver all the way up to the 10th/11th dimension should solidify their rating, along with what she said about the mega black hole causing everything to return to nothingness.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The discussion that was re-opened here is kinda meaningless.

>Anti-Spiral creates a multiverse of countless realities that are made real over and over as they are observed each moment

>This multiverse has a different set of dimensional axis, explicitly ten or eleventh dimensional space.

It is High 1-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've also seen less speculatory things be rejected.

I feel that this could be a hint of bias, seeing as many of your upgrades were rejected.

 

[Joseph619]

I mean we're giving them both 2-C and 1-C to be safe and respecting both interpretations

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

2-B* and High 1-C*

 

[Joseph619]

Why is TTLG still Low 2-C if Anti Spiral is 2-B? It needs to be fixed

 

[Crzer07]

So yeah lets wait for azathoth to put the final nail into the Coffin to make it meaningful, whether or not it is indeed "drawing dots on paper".