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I'll respond to that point tomorrow
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Team Fortress 9-A Upgrade
- Thread starter TheGatememer
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- heavy pyro scout team fortress
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Ok here is my response to the opposition's points.
For everyone's sake, please read this thoroughly before repeating the same points again. If you repeat the same points, I'm just going to bring up this again
"It was a gas explosion, not a real explosion, therefore the result would be much lower than it is"
It wasn't a gas explosion. There were no gasoline barrels in sight.
There was one mention of TFC Soldier being covered in it. Even then, TFC Soldier couldn't have been covered in it much, since he didn't even notice until TFC Scout pointed it out. So at most, there was a guy covered in it and maybe some spots on the floor as seen in the panel. (But that could very well just be like water or something).
Not to mention, it was an explosion of an ammunition shack, so its far more likely that the explosion happened from whatever explosives were within the shack.
"The Pyro feat is too vague, they could've gone somewhere else while the explosion happened, thereby lowering the results"
There are quite a few flaws with this assumption.
First of all, Pyro was just shown to be right above the classic mercs, and when the explosion, Scout says "Oh, there he is" indicating that Pyro is indeed within the building. And Scout's first thought when the explosion happened wasn't "oh an explosion", but he knew it was Pyro, indicating that Pyro may be known for doing this kinda stuff on a regular basis. Yes, there was a POV switch, but Pyro already ignited his Flamethrower in the previous panel. And by the next panel, the explosion happened. It couldn't have been that large of a timeframe.
Second of all, well do you see Pyro anywhere outside the building? The shack is in a closed off space, the only way he could've gotten out was through the door. And Pyro is nowhere in sight in the 2nd panel, which can only mean he was in the building. Since, well the explosion couldn't have happened otherwise. Not to mention, it is a VERY small building, its more of a shack. So regardless of his position within the building, it really shouldn't lower the results by that much.
And third of all, well it would be INSANELY out of character for Pyro to strategically escape the building and set off the explosion then. Pyro absolutely LOVES fire, and if he sees it, he will literally run towards it. Not to mention his Pyrovision, where he see's everyone as babies, ponies, or whatever. He views everything as his own fantasy world, as seen as when he viewed literally murdering the entire BLU team as playing with them.
So to assume Pyro went far enough away from the explosion to the point where it would be knocked down all the way into 9-B is not only an unrealistic assumption, but also INCREDIBLY out of character for Pyro.
"It wasn't a singular explosion, and assuming it was grenade boxes that exploded, they are spread throughout the room, so the calc wouldn't apply for square cube or something"
The issue with this is that it's shown as being one singular explosion, not multiple small explosions. There was only one explosion circle, not multiple. Even if we don't see any grenade boxes exploding or whatever, that is kind of irrelevant since, well the explosion happened. Doesn't matter if we see them exploding or not.
In addition, all the boxes are pretty close together. You'd have a bit more of a case if it were like a warehouse or something, but as mentioned before, its a really small building, so they can't really be spread out that much.
"It's an outlier"
No it isn't. It's consistent with Scout being able to survive a near 9-A explosion. Yes, it is near 9-A, since the accepted end is 0.00413 tons, which is less than 0.001 tons away from 9-A.
However, is not just the fact that Scout survive it. Before he took any of the rockets, he was already injured, as seen when his face is beaten up, and he is bandaged. Prior to taking the big blast, he took a direct rocket. Right after that, he took the near 9-A explosion. However, that wasn't what even incapacitated him, as he is capable of flailing around his limbs and screaming like crazy even after taking the explosion. Him getting his face slammed into the glass is what really incapacitated him, as seen when he stopped moving after that.
Not to mention, Scout is the weakest mercenary physically. This is shown when Scout in the Yeti Smash taunt is the only one unable to instantly destroy it, and he gets hurt by punching the wood.
So the weakest mercenary, who was already injured and took a direct rocket beforehand, was able to still flail around after being hit by an explosion that was less than 0.001 tons away from being 9-A. The other mercs scale for the aforementioned reasons.
"There are no other 9-A feats other than the Pyro one, none of the rocket calcs are "near" 9-A"
calc.
Literally outlined in red for you. If you miss this again, I'm going to assume you are purposefully ignoring this.
There is also the supporting feat of Giant Robots being able to survive Sentry Buster explosions, and the Mercs being able to harm them.
(side note; There is another VERY minor supporting feat with Miss Pauling. This is seen in this comic where Saxton Hale has a door that only he could open, due to his strength. However, later in the comic, she is able to open the same door, albeit with a battering ram, and basically all her effort. This indicates that this is comparable to one of Saxton Hale's casual punches, who is listed as "At least 9-A". But, well its a very minor supporting feat for a good reason.)
"TFC Pyro was vaporized by a single grenade"
The TFC mercs we see in the comics are very likely to be much weaker than the current mercs physically, especially considering they are WAY past their prime. Some examples including:
1. Soldier one-shotting Classic Spy with a punch
2. Spy, without much effort, was able to choke out TFC Demo. Albiet, he was injured.
3. Heavy was stomping TFC Heavy prior to him putting on the Immortality Machine. Yes, he was stabbed by Medic multiple times before this, however it really didn't seem to affect him all that much.
Also, the grenade that vaporized TFC Pyro was very likely a Napalm grenade, as that is the grenade type TFC Pyro usually uses. The Grenade that Zhana used were the ones that were in TFC Pyro's arsenal, as seen in this panel. Also, the explosion was contained entirely within her suit, and since it is a Napalm grenade (aka fire based) topping of the fact that due to being Pyro, her suit is basically fireproof, it's not too surprising that someone weaker than the current mercs would be reduced to ashes, considering that it's primarily fire/heat based anyways.
The Grenade would be 9-A anyways since it can harm characters comparable to Scout.
"There are far more 9-B feats than 9-A feats, and the mercs are constantly killed by 9-B stuff"
And? There are more 9-C feats than 9-B feats too, since most guns cap out at 9-C+, and said guns can kill the mercs. And there are far more guns than explosives in TF2. But do we downgrade the mercs to 9-C? No, we currently assume that the weapons are 9-B, due to being able to harm mercs that can survive 9-B explosions.
Take literally almost any character above Tier 9/8, and I'll guarantee you that they have far more Tier 9/8 feats than whatever their current tier is. But do we downgrade them to that tier? No, just because it's not the most commonly shown, doesn't make it an outlier, nor does it make it unusable.
In this case, the mercs and their weapons would simply be "likely/possibly 9-A" since their weapons can harm characters like Pyro and Scout, who can survive 9-A, or near 9-A explosions.
Heavy being one-shot by a single rocket/gibbed by pipes is a very obvious inconsistency, since even the weakest member is capable of surviving multiple.
Conclusion
So to conclude, I can settle with a "likely/possibly" rating for 9-A, just to acknowledge that the mercs can die from "9-B" stuff, and 9-B feats are much more common (put in quotations, since it would actually be 9-A for reasons I've already mentioned).
However, let me say this once again. Pyro surviving the shack explosion (which is 9-A), is consistent with Scout, the weakest mercenary, while already injured, being able to survive an explosion that is less than 0.001 tons away from 9-A.
To not at least assume the mercs are "possibly" baseline 9-A for the previous reason would be ignoring feats, since the mercs have been shown to be able to survive 9-A stuff/harm things with 9-A durability. Even the Pyro and Scout feat alone should suffice for a "likely/possibly" rating, since it shows that the 9-A feat isn't the only one of it's kind in the series.
It wasn't a gas explosion. There were no gasoline barrels in sight.
There was one mention of TFC Soldier being covered in it. Even then, TFC Soldier couldn't have been covered in it much, since he didn't even notice until TFC Scout pointed it out. So at most, there was a guy covered in it and maybe some spots on the floor as seen in the panel. (But that could very well just be like water or something).
Not to mention, it was an explosion of an ammunition shack, so its far more likely that the explosion happened from whatever explosives were within the shack.
"The Pyro feat is too vague, they could've gone somewhere else while the explosion happened, thereby lowering the results"
There are quite a few flaws with this assumption.
First of all, Pyro was just shown to be right above the classic mercs, and when the explosion, Scout says "Oh, there he is" indicating that Pyro is indeed within the building. And Scout's first thought when the explosion happened wasn't "oh an explosion", but he knew it was Pyro, indicating that Pyro may be known for doing this kinda stuff on a regular basis. Yes, there was a POV switch, but Pyro already ignited his Flamethrower in the previous panel. And by the next panel, the explosion happened. It couldn't have been that large of a timeframe.
Second of all, well do you see Pyro anywhere outside the building? The shack is in a closed off space, the only way he could've gotten out was through the door. And Pyro is nowhere in sight in the 2nd panel, which can only mean he was in the building. Since, well the explosion couldn't have happened otherwise. Not to mention, it is a VERY small building, its more of a shack. So regardless of his position within the building, it really shouldn't lower the results by that much.
And third of all, well it would be INSANELY out of character for Pyro to strategically escape the building and set off the explosion then. Pyro absolutely LOVES fire, and if he sees it, he will literally run towards it. Not to mention his Pyrovision, where he see's everyone as babies, ponies, or whatever. He views everything as his own fantasy world, as seen as when he viewed literally murdering the entire BLU team as playing with them.
So to assume Pyro went far enough away from the explosion to the point where it would be knocked down all the way into 9-B is not only an unrealistic assumption, but also INCREDIBLY out of character for Pyro.
"It wasn't a singular explosion, and assuming it was grenade boxes that exploded, they are spread throughout the room, so the calc wouldn't apply for square cube or something"
The issue with this is that it's shown as being one singular explosion, not multiple small explosions. There was only one explosion circle, not multiple. Even if we don't see any grenade boxes exploding or whatever, that is kind of irrelevant since, well the explosion happened. Doesn't matter if we see them exploding or not.
In addition, all the boxes are pretty close together. You'd have a bit more of a case if it were like a warehouse or something, but as mentioned before, its a really small building, so they can't really be spread out that much.
"It's an outlier"
No it isn't. It's consistent with Scout being able to survive a near 9-A explosion. Yes, it is near 9-A, since the accepted end is 0.00413 tons, which is less than 0.001 tons away from 9-A.
However, is not just the fact that Scout survive it. Before he took any of the rockets, he was already injured, as seen when his face is beaten up, and he is bandaged. Prior to taking the big blast, he took a direct rocket. Right after that, he took the near 9-A explosion. However, that wasn't what even incapacitated him, as he is capable of flailing around his limbs and screaming like crazy even after taking the explosion. Him getting his face slammed into the glass is what really incapacitated him, as seen when he stopped moving after that.
Not to mention, Scout is the weakest mercenary physically. This is shown when Scout in the Yeti Smash taunt is the only one unable to instantly destroy it, and he gets hurt by punching the wood.
So the weakest mercenary, who was already injured and took a direct rocket beforehand, was able to still flail around after being hit by an explosion that was less than 0.001 tons away from being 9-A. The other mercs scale for the aforementioned reasons.
"There are no other 9-A feats other than the Pyro one, none of the rocket calcs are "near" 9-A"
calc.
Literally outlined in red for you. If you miss this again, I'm going to assume you are purposefully ignoring this.
There is also the supporting feat of Giant Robots being able to survive Sentry Buster explosions, and the Mercs being able to harm them.
(side note; There is another VERY minor supporting feat with Miss Pauling. This is seen in this comic where Saxton Hale has a door that only he could open, due to his strength. However, later in the comic, she is able to open the same door, albeit with a battering ram, and basically all her effort. This indicates that this is comparable to one of Saxton Hale's casual punches, who is listed as "At least 9-A". But, well its a very minor supporting feat for a good reason.)
"TFC Pyro was vaporized by a single grenade"
The TFC mercs we see in the comics are very likely to be much weaker than the current mercs physically, especially considering they are WAY past their prime. Some examples including:
1. Soldier one-shotting Classic Spy with a punch
2. Spy, without much effort, was able to choke out TFC Demo. Albiet, he was injured.
3. Heavy was stomping TFC Heavy prior to him putting on the Immortality Machine. Yes, he was stabbed by Medic multiple times before this, however it really didn't seem to affect him all that much.
Also, the grenade that vaporized TFC Pyro was very likely a Napalm grenade, as that is the grenade type TFC Pyro usually uses. The Grenade that Zhana used were the ones that were in TFC Pyro's arsenal, as seen in this panel. Also, the explosion was contained entirely within her suit, and since it is a Napalm grenade (aka fire based) topping of the fact that due to being Pyro, her suit is basically fireproof, it's not too surprising that someone weaker than the current mercs would be reduced to ashes, considering that it's primarily fire/heat based anyways.
The Grenade would be 9-A anyways since it can harm characters comparable to Scout.
"There are far more 9-B feats than 9-A feats, and the mercs are constantly killed by 9-B stuff"
And? There are more 9-C feats than 9-B feats too, since most guns cap out at 9-C+, and said guns can kill the mercs. And there are far more guns than explosives in TF2. But do we downgrade the mercs to 9-C? No, we currently assume that the weapons are 9-B, due to being able to harm mercs that can survive 9-B explosions.
Take literally almost any character above Tier 9/8, and I'll guarantee you that they have far more Tier 9/8 feats than whatever their current tier is. But do we downgrade them to that tier? No, just because it's not the most commonly shown, doesn't make it an outlier, nor does it make it unusable.
In this case, the mercs and their weapons would simply be "likely/possibly 9-A" since their weapons can harm characters like Pyro and Scout, who can survive 9-A, or near 9-A explosions.
Heavy being one-shot by a single rocket/gibbed by pipes is a very obvious inconsistency, since even the weakest member is capable of surviving multiple.
Conclusion
So to conclude, I can settle with a "likely/possibly" rating for 9-A, just to acknowledge that the mercs can die from "9-B" stuff, and 9-B feats are much more common (put in quotations, since it would actually be 9-A for reasons I've already mentioned).
However, let me say this once again. Pyro surviving the shack explosion (which is 9-A), is consistent with Scout, the weakest mercenary, while already injured, being able to survive an explosion that is less than 0.001 tons away from 9-A.
To not at least assume the mercs are "possibly" baseline 9-A for the previous reason would be ignoring feats, since the mercs have been shown to be able to survive 9-A stuff/harm things with 9-A durability. Even the Pyro and Scout feat alone should suffice for a "likely/possibly" rating, since it shows that the 9-A feat isn't the only one of it's kind in the series.
For everyone's sake, please read this thoroughly before repeating the same points again. If you repeat the same points, I'm just going to bring up this again
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So to conclude, the Mercs would be 9-B, 9-A with weapons as the explosives and other weapons that they get harmed and incapacitated by if not outright die from are consistently calced at .001 Tons, with a single feat for Pyro that has not been accepted by the calc team and, as explained both in this thread and in the comments on the blog itself, said feat is extremely vague with numerous problems regarding its viability as a feat and scaling
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Btw, we still didn't apply Cow Mangler atomizing cows, even if it doesn't scale to mercs we still need to give Soldier 8-B as optional equipment
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Wait, 8-B for atomizing a cow?
8-C I'd buy but that seems off
Either way, to not get side tracked, sure, what Weekly said is on point if you entirely ignore Scout's feat and that Pyro's feat isn't really vague enough to be completely inapplicable .
8-C I'd buy but that seems off
Either way, to not get side tracked, sure, what Weekly said is on point if you entirely ignore Scout's feat and that Pyro's feat isn't really vague enough to be completely inapplicable .
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Which feat exactly? He has no calced 9-A feats, only half a dozen .001 ton calcs
Dargoo already summed up why its too vague, but the calc itself hasnt even been accepted on the blog
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Because some people just keep talking about weather or not it can be used when it's a discussion for this thread. If someone just gave a quick "Yes" or "No" on the math that would be great.
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a quick google search tells me that a male cow weighs 1100kg on average and female cows weight 720kg
so on average a cow would weight about 910kg
cows are mostly made of water so their density should be similar to it
910 : 1000 = 0.91 cubic meters or 910000 cubic centimeters
cows are also made of the same stuff as humans so their atomization value should be roughly the same
910000 x 72416.33 = 65898860300 joules or 15.75 Tons of TNT (City Block level)
but i think i recall the cow mangler atomizing cows being rejected because "quantum disentangle" isn't a real word or something
so on average a cow would weight about 910kg
cows are mostly made of water so their density should be similar to it
910 : 1000 = 0.91 cubic meters or 910000 cubic centimeters
cows are also made of the same stuff as humans so their atomization value should be roughly the same
910000 x 72416.33 = 65898860300 joules or 15.75 Tons of TNT (City Block level)
but i think i recall the cow mangler atomizing cows being rejected because "quantum disentangle" isn't a real word or something
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Sorry about jumping in, but I don't see how Pyro's feat means he's 9-A at all?
I'm confused how we can scale that to him? You cannot scale someone to the full explosion unless they do something like holding the blast in their hand or the blast came from inside of them. If Pyro was still above them when the explosion happened, which I think is reasonable to assume, you need to use the inverse square law to calculate his durability. It's very rarely possible to scale to the full explosion, since when a bomb explosions, even if its only 2 cm away from your foot.
If you have something like, a character picks a small bomb and covers the entire explosion with its hands before it grow too much, that is one of the few examples that scales 100% to the explosion value. If a character is right at the side of the explosion, it still isn't going to "absorb" all of the explosion. At least you can consider that only half of the explosion hit the character, because he is at one side of the explosion, not all of them.
I don't know anything about outlier or whatever, but Pyro's dura shouldn't just scale to the 9-A explosion 100%, unless it can be proven he was sitting on top of the center point of the blast. The inverse square law should indeed be used here.
Also being 1 meter away can drop the results, by a lot. In one calc I did, a character was only 0.85 m away from a 7 Ton explosion. But using the inverse square law put his dura at around 1 ton, only scaling to around 15% of the total energy of the explosion.
I'm confused how we can scale that to him? You cannot scale someone to the full explosion unless they do something like holding the blast in their hand or the blast came from inside of them. If Pyro was still above them when the explosion happened, which I think is reasonable to assume, you need to use the inverse square law to calculate his durability. It's very rarely possible to scale to the full explosion, since when a bomb explosions, even if its only 2 cm away from your foot.
If you have something like, a character picks a small bomb and covers the entire explosion with its hands before it grow too much, that is one of the few examples that scales 100% to the explosion value. If a character is right at the side of the explosion, it still isn't going to "absorb" all of the explosion. At least you can consider that only half of the explosion hit the character, because he is at one side of the explosion, not all of them.
I don't know anything about outlier or whatever, but Pyro's dura shouldn't just scale to the 9-A explosion 100%, unless it can be proven he was sitting on top of the center point of the blast. The inverse square law should indeed be used here.
Also being 1 meter away can drop the results, by a lot. In one calc I did, a character was only 0.85 m away from a 7 Ton explosion. But using the inverse square law put his dura at around 1 ton, only scaling to around 15% of the total energy of the explosion.
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Team Fortress #6 - The Naked and the Dead
www.teamfortress.com
The fact that this feat was calced as 9-A despite not being spherical enough to calc as a fireball, being half obscured by Scout's speech bubble to the point of making a shockwave calc iffy at best (Seriously it looks like he just randomly picked a spot for the end of the explosion to be and no one said anything), and despite being fully contained by the building itself only blows out a few small windows on the side of the warehouse and knocks out the doors and takes some pieces out of the tin roof but does zero damage to building itself including doing no damage whatsoever to the giant windows that take up half the front of the building really brings into question the legitimacy of this calc
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I can get a recalc done later if the calc is the issue.
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Not really true. If it's less than like, 20 centimeres away, the math will actually have the results increase. Which obviously doesn't make sense, but it does go to show that if you're point blank you'll pretty much take the whole blast, and Pyro is already pretty close even on the high ground, and it's unlikely he even stayed there while the blast goes off. It is pretty likely he dropped down, got even closer to the source of the blast and then the explosion occured. But, at the end of the day that is an assumption, so one could probbaly argue they should use inverse square law using the height Pyro is at when we're shown him there.
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To be frank, I fully support a full 9-A upgrade with the evidence given. Especially now that that ridiculous Cow Mangler argument isn't being tossed around anymore.
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Based on what exactly? The 9-A feat has already been ampliy explained as being too vague to use and too much of an outlier to be scaled to if it can even be used, and the feat itself is currently being recalced as the calc group hasnt even approved it and currently is talking about the math being wrong. And its the only 9-A feat here
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The Pyro feat isn't usable for their dura. The calc uses a ground-based formula despite not being on the ground (this makes the result higher), and, as mentioned above, wouldn't scale to Pyro's dura anyways since you need to be at the very center of an explosion for that to work.
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Pills don't one-shot tho
even the weakest classes can take at least 1
even the weakest classes can take at least 1
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This is the last time I say this.
Gameplay is not canon and any feat taken from gameplay that isn't MvM is also not canon.
Every trailer shows the Mercs getting gibbed when killed by way of an explosion. This is consistent, they cannot survive their own weapons. The question now is do they downscale from their weapons, or do their weapons upscale from them? Because we have multiple 9-B calcs for their weapons and 9-A calcs for them.
This is honestly leaning either way, and I'm all for 9-B, possibly 9-A at this point.
Gameplay is not canon and any feat taken from gameplay that isn't MvM is also not canon.
Every trailer shows the Mercs getting gibbed when killed by way of an explosion. This is consistent, they cannot survive their own weapons. The question now is do they downscale from their weapons, or do their weapons upscale from them? Because we have multiple 9-B calcs for their weapons and 9-A calcs for them.
This is honestly leaning either way, and I'm all for 9-B, possibly 9-A at this point.
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i'd be fine with 9-B possibly 9-A
but i definatly remember mercs surviving getting hit by Pills in some videos
but i definatly remember mercs surviving getting hit by Pills in some videos
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That was a crit pill, which one shots literally everyone.
But that would scale to AP.
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Again, there is only one 9-A calc and the calc group not only never accepted it but is currently re alcing it due to faulty math, and numerous staff here disagree with using it to scale anyone. There is no 'possibly 9-A' as there is nothing 9-A for them to physically scale to
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Except the fact that there's an accepted calc that's 0.001 tons away from 9-A?
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Except it's not? Except its .001 tons as the yield, not the gap away from 9-A? Except the fact that there are 5 calcs for rockets that are all .001 tons to support this being a consistent yield?
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There was literally a red box around it highlighting it how have you not seen it yet?
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I've seen you guys highlighting the highest possible yield for one calc that is 4x higher than the consistently calced yields for the same rockets including the calced yield on the same calc which was .001 tons yes
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And it was accepted by an admin.
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The .001 ton calcs were also accepted by admins so what does that tell you?
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That both ends are acceptable?
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It is ground based though. Everything that likely caused the explosion is on the ground.
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Yes, so why is it that you continue to push for a single calc with a rsult that is 4x higher than any other one of the other five calcs for the same weapon all of which have identical yields?
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The problem is he didnt calc it as a ground-based explosion, he calced it as an air-based explosion
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he used the ground formula thought
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No, they didn't. They used overpressure.
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They did not, no.
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It ain't on the ground though. Like the sphere he calc'd only barely grazes the ground, so something is off here, lad.
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This is what i was referring to
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I mean, honestly the way it's presented with the explosion going through the roof, it almost feels cylindrical
That doesn't make any sense but this is the same comic book that has Medic explaining to the devil that he grafted 8 different souls to himself so it's just fiction as always
Either way the explosives are clearly on the floor.
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Thats the point tho, its calcd as though theyre in the middle of th building when realistically the explosion should be twice as large
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