Team Fortress 9-A Upgrade

[WeeklyBattles]

Quite sure the Scout feat and Pyro feat is enough for reasons I've already explained.

(An injured scout was able to survive a near 9-A explosion, and Pyro, who is stronger than Scout, was able to take a 9-A explosion, which we already showed wasn't a gas explosion)

Scouts feat is 9-B. At this point you'd need an actual calc member who isnt DMUA (As DMUA has a tendency to not look over calcs he approves and backtrack on calcs he approves constantly) to approve the 9-A calc over the 9-B calc. And even then surviving is not tanking, once again a normal human isnt 9-B because they get hostpialized by a land mine they step on but dont die from it.

Even if you wanted to take the Pyro feat as a legitimate explosion it would still be an outlier as classic Pyro, who the cast scale to and who scales to the cast, was vaporized by a single grenade, and the cast is consistently severely injured if not outright gibbed by gernades, pipe bombs, and rockets so how exactly is Pyro tanking an entire storehouse of those explosives not an outlier?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can I get a summary please?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Can I get a summary please?

At the moment there are two points of contention.

1. Scout being severely injured to the point of incapacitation by rockets that were calced to be 9-B in three different calcs and 9-A in an old calc (one of the 9-B calcs is a recalc of the 9-A calc). Technically theres five 9-B calcs but we dont use in-game stuff for TF2 anymore so they dont count

2. Pyro tanking a 9-A explosion that consisted of a storehouse of rockets, grenades, and pipe bombs which are consistently shown to severely injure or outright gib the Mercs, and in some instances even outright vaporizes people on their level

The rest of the stuff like the Cow Mangler, Sentry Buster, and Merasmus have been settled and dropped

 

[TheGatememer]

Scouts feat is 9-B. At this point you'd need an actual calc member who isnt DMUA (As DMUA has a tendency to not look over calcs he approves and backtrack on calcs he approves constantly) to approve the 9-A calc over the 9-B calc.

...Are you seriously going there? That's quite a low blow.

Regardless, the accepted end is literally just 0.001 tons of tnt away from 9-A, and it was evaluated by Mr. Bambu.

Even if you wanted to take the Pyro feat as a legitimate explosion it would still be an outlier as classic Pyro, who the cast scale to and who scales to the cast, was vaporized by a single grenade. The cast is consistently severely injured if not outright gibbed by gernades, pipe bombs, and rockets so how exactly is Pyro tanking an entire storehouse of those explosives not an outlier?

TF2 is inconsistent. But like with the Scout feat, it's not the first of it's kind, therefore, it really isn't an outlier. Classic Pyro is far weaker, as she is far past her prime, and the explosion was contained entirely within her suit.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Regardless, the accepted end is literally just 0.001 tons of tnt away from 9-A, and it was evaluated by Mr. Bambu.

The 9-B recalc of the same feat was also accepted by DMUA and Bambu, as were the other to 9-B calcs for rockets in different scenes, so.......

TF2 is inconsistent. But like with the Scout feat, it's not the first of it's kind, therefore, it really isn't an outlier. Classic Pyro is far weaker, as she is far past her prime, and the explosion was contained entirely within her suit.

Thats not really an argument my guy. Inconsistent =/= outliers cant exist unless you'd like to make the argument that the verse should be all Unknown due to being too inconsistent to properly tier. Fact of the matter is that rockets are consistently calced to be 9-B and the mercs ar consistently hurt by being hit by them, ergo Pyro facetanking an entire warehouse of rockets, grenades, and other explosives blowing up in his face and taking no damage from it is an outlier.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Mann vs Machine Medic update trailer had Demo, Heavy, and Soldier die to pills.

Jungle Inferno had Scout die after exposure to 2 seconds of Pyro's flamethrower.

I'm starting to think the weapons are 9-A and the mercs aren't.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm starting to think the weapons are 9-A and the mercs aren't.

Thats what was decided before but even then it wouldnt be all the weapons, just the absolute strongest ones. Stuff like the rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and stickybomb launcher are all consistently calced at 9-B both in cutscenes and in-game

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok so the Mercs scale to base weapons which are 9-B and the optional equipment scale to 9-A. That's perfectly fine.

After all, rocket and sticky-jumping is a thing.

Although, why do the Mercs with full upgrades not scale to 9-A again?

 

[TheGatememer]

I'm just gonna address all the opposing arguments against 9-A

"It was a gas explosion, not a real explosion"

There was literally one mention of gas, that's it. There are no gas barrels in sight. At most, there was a guy covered in it, and maybe some spots on the floor. The guy couldn't have been covered in it much even, since he didn't even notice.

"Scout was heavily hospitalized by the explosion, he doesn't scale"

He was already injured prior to taking any damage, which is seen when he is bandaged up, and his face is beaten. After that, he took 1 direct rocket. And after that, he took an explosion, in which accepted end is literally just 0.001 tons away from being 9-A. He wasn't even incapacitated by the explosion itself, as he is seen flailing around in the air. He was only incapacitated when he hit is face on the window. If he was incapacitated by the explosion, he would've just been like this. And no, this wasn't evaluated by DMUA because somebody has an issue with that. It was evaluated by Mr. Bambu.

"Pyro taking it is an outlier"

TF2 is already heavily inconsistent as is. However, consider the fact that the explosion scout survived was literally only 0.001 tons away from being 9-A, as well as the fact that he was already injured in the first place and took a direct rocket beforehand, coupled with the fact that Scout wasn't even hospitalized by the explosion itself, add the fact that Pyro is stronger than Scout and was in normal condition, it's not really controversial to say that Pyro took an explosion that is more into 9-A.

At worst, I can see the Mercs being baseline 9-A due to the fact that an already injured Scout (who is the weakest mercenary) took a near 9-A explosion, and wasn't even hospitalized by the explosion itself. Even if you call Pyro taking the explosion is an outlier, it shows that the mercs have more than one 9-A feat, which should be more than enough to make them "likely/possibly" baseline 9-A.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

He was already injured prior to taking any damage, which is seen when he is bandaged up, and his face is beaten. After that, he took 1 direct rocket. And after that, he took an explosion, in which accepted end is literally just 0.001 tons away from being 9-A. He wasn't even incapacitated by the explosion itself, as he is seen flailing around in the air. He was only incapacitated when he hit is face on the window. If he was incapacitated by the explosion, he would've just been like this. And no, this wasn't evaluated by DMUA because somebody has an issue with that. It was evaluated by Mr. Bambu.

Again, three different calcs put the rockets at 9-B, one of which is a more recent recalc of the 9-A calc and, seeing as this is your metric for whether or not they should be used for this verse, all three 9-B calcs were approved by DMUA and Bambu.

TF2 is already heavily inconsistent as is. However, consider the fact that the explosion scout survived was literally only 0.001 tons away from being 9-A, as well as the fact that he was already injured in the first place and took a direct rocket beforehand, coupled with the fact that Scout wasn't even hospitalized by the explosion itself, add the fact that Pyro is stronger than Scout and was in normal condition, it's not really controversial to say that Pyro took an explosion that is more into 9-A.

I dont think you understand the severity of arguing that a verse is 'too inconsistent' here, if a verse is deemed too inconsistent it gets locked at Unknown, it doesnt just get an array of tiers like youre arguing for. The explosion Scout survived is 9-B.

At worst, I can see the Mercs being baseline 9-A due to the fact that an already injured Scout (who is the weakest mercenary) took a near 9-A explosion, and wasn't even hospitalized by the explosion itself. Even if you call Pyro taking the explosion is an outlier, it shows that the mercs have more than one 9-A feat, which should be more than enough to make them "likely/possibly" baseline 9-A.

This is the third instance of arguing for scaling the mercs to weapons that canonically oneshot them, how do you guys keep coming to this conclusion?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Disagree with 9-A based on Weekly’s arguments. I’m particularly strongly against scaling them to weapons that vaporize them.

This argument is stupid, and that's the reason TF2 should've been city block already, tho it's obviously not accepted here. In TF2, mercs don't show much damage until dying, not just with vaporization but also explosions. If they survive something, they survive it. Period.

 

[The_Smashor]

Mann vs Machine Medic update trailer had Demo, Heavy, and Soldier die to pills.

Jungle Inferno had Scout die after exposure to 2 seconds of Pyro's flamethrower.

I'm starting to think the weapons are 9-A and the mercs aren't.

Like I said, the weapons definitely scale to 9-A since they can damage Giants who can tank Sentry Buster explosions, alongside the other supporting evidence.

Durability is the biggest question, here.

 

[TheGatememer]

Again, three different calcs put the rockets at 9-B, one of which is a more recent recalc of the 9-A calc and, seeing as this is your metric for whether or not they should be used for this verse, all three 9-B calcs were approved by DMUA and Bambu.

You keep trying to ignore the fact that the accepted end on Scout's profile is a little less than 0.001 tons away from 9-A.

I dont think you understand the severity of arguing that a verse is 'too inconsistent' here, if a verse is deemed too inconsistent it gets locked at Unknown, it doesnt just get an array of tiers like youre arguing for. The explosion Scout survived is 9-B.

By inconsistent, I mean the whole weapons thing of the Mercs dying to bat swings and stuff when Scout was capable of taking a near 9-A explosion. Or mercs dying to a single rocket when that is a clear inconsistency.

This is the third instance of arguing for scaling the mercs to weapons that canonically oneshot them, how do you guys keep coming to this conclusion?

Are you now seriously arguing that regular weapons one-shot the mercs? That is contradicted both in gameplay and in cutscenes. Soldier regularly rocket jumps with his rockets, and Demo regularly sticky jumps. As well as the main two explosion calcs.

Classic Pyro is far past her prime, and the explosion was entirely contained within her suit, which would contribute to her getting incinerated, since all of the heat is trapped inside of the suit.

Not to play whataboutism but I'm gonna do it anyway. For LITERALLY any other verse, we wouldn't disregard clear feats that put them at that level (One example I can think of is FE characters surviving Town level meteors, when they can die from 9-B explosions. Or the Mario characters "consistently" dying from fodder attacks which are around tier 9/8 when they have clearly shown greater feats. ). Literally take any other verse, and this is probably true.

Besides, if this is accepted, all of the attacks will be 9-A anyways, regardless of explosion size or whatever due to being able to harm and/or kill the characters that can survive 9-A explosions. (Including the grenade that incinerated Classic Pyro)

 

[TheGatememer]

And I have yet to see you properly debunk an already injured Scout (the weakest merc) taking a near 9-A explosion, and how Mercs being able to survive 9-A explosions is further reinforced by Pyro being able to survive one themselves.

And no, bringing up those 3 rocket calcs isn't a debunk.

 

[TheGatememer]

Like I said, the weapons definitely scale to 9-A since they can damage Giants who can tank Sentry Buster explosions, alongside the other supporting evidence.

Durability is the biggest question, here.

At the very worst, I can see the mercs getting an MvM key that has their "likely/possibly" 9-A ratings rather than their base keys.

 

[Knifeman29]

Again, three different calcs put the rockets at 9-B, one of which is a more recent recalc of the 9-A calc and, seeing as this is your metric for whether or not they should be used for this verse, all three 9-B calcs were approved by DMUA and Bambu.

for the first calc mr bambu seems to say it should be used as a lowball and that he doesn't think it's anymore accurate than the 9-A one.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You keep trying to ignore the fact that the accepted end on Scout's profile is a little less than 0.001 tons away from 9-A.

By inconsistent, I mean the whole weapons thing of the Mercs dying to bat swings and stuff when Scout was capable of taking a near 9-A explosion.

Im really not sure how many times i have to say that he didnt tank a near 9-A explosion. At this point its just a back and forth of 'he did' vs 'he didnt' so it comes down to the match, three 9-B calcs all at .001 Tons for the rockets. That is less than half of the yield to get to 9-B+ let alone 9-A

Are you now seriously arguing that regular weapons one-shot the mercs? That is contradicted both in gameplay and in cutscenes. Soldier regularly rocket jumps with his rockets, and Demo regularly sticky jumps. As well as the main two explosion calcs.

And those weapons have also been calced at 9-B, not 9-A. If you want to take the rocket jump and sticky bomb and jump calcs into consideration for this it bumps the number of calcs supporting them being 9-B up to seven from three.

Not to play whataboutism but I'm gonna do it anyway. For LITERALLY any other verse, we wouldn't disregard clear feats that put them at that level (One example I can think of is FE characters surviving Town level meteors, when they can die from 9-B explosions. Or the Mario characters "consistently" dying from fodder attacks which are around tier 9/8 when they have clearly shown greater feats. ). Literally take any other verse, and this is probably true.

We do though, for every verse we do this. And besides, two wrongs dont make a right.

Besides, if this is accepted, all of the attacks will be 9-A anyways, regardless of explosion size or whatever due to being able to harm and/or kill the characters that can survive 9-A explosions. (Including the grenade that incinerated Classic Pyro)

With their weapons yeah, which oneshot the other mercs, they wouldnt be 9-A physically.

And I have yet to see you properly debunk an already injured Scout (the weakest merc) taking a near 9-A explosion, and how Mercs being able to survive 9-A explosions is further reinforced by Pyro being able to survive one themselves.

Because its not a near 9-A explosion, .001 tons is not even half of 9-A. Other than Pyro's feat there are no other instances of the mercs surviving 9-A explosions without an insane amount of buffs, which only further reinforces the fact that the old 9-A rocket calc is not accurate.

And no, bringing up those 3 rocket calcs isn't a debunk.

It really is seeing as it disproves the mercs scaling to anything 9-A physically when all three of those calcs are .001 Tons of tnt

At the very worst, I can see the mercs getting an MvM key that has their "likely/possibly" 9-A ratings rather than their base keys.

Why is that?

 

[Thelastmlg]

Also for the classic pyro argument, her suit tanked the blast, and pyro's should be comparable since their resources come from the same brothers that contracted her, and I'm sure they would give him comparable equipment to them.

Plus the grenade was put right on her face off guard and the suit reduced surface area penalty, she even had half her face burned off already, she was NOT in peak condition.

AFAIK The old mercs never fought the modern mercs physically, only with guns and Australium boost, at best old heavy scales above medic and that's it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also for the classic pyro argument, her suit tanked the blast, and pyro's should be comparable since their resources come from the same brothers that contracted her, and I'm sure they would give him comparable equipment to them.

Plus the grenade was put right on her face off guard and the suit reduced surface area penalty, she even had half her face burned off already, she was NOT in peak condition.

AFAIK The old mercs never fought the modern mercs physically, only with guns and Australium boost, at best old heavy scales above medic and that's it.

The fact that she was vaporized implies that it was done via heat. Vaporizing a person is 9-A heat but 9-B force, hence why the argument for Pyro's suit having 9-A hat resistance but 9-B physical durability was brought up but ignored for some reason

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I don't want to get too involved since I've dropped outof TF2 stuff awhile ago but if DMUA is okay with the Scout and Pyro calcs, then I'm okay with 9-B, likely 9-A myself.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't want to get too involved since I've dropped outof TF2 stuff awhile ago but if DMUA is okay with the Scout and Pyro calcs, then I'm okay with 9-B, likely 9-A myself.

The scout calcs are 9-B and the Pyro feat is a massive outlier

 

[The_Smashor]

The fact that she was vaporized implies that it was done via heat. Vaporizing a person is 9-A heat but 9-B force, hence why the argument for Pyro's suit having 9-A hat resistance but 9-B physical durability was brought up but ignored for some reason

It would take more than heat resistance to survive the explosion Pyro survived. Scout's extremely casual dialogue also implies this is not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Guys, calcs aside, Mercs get 1-shot by their own weapons more times than they don't. You're using 3 pieces of evidence for 9-A Mercs against a boatload of evidence that suggests otherwise.

The only way 9-A Mercs work now is if the base rockets and pills scale to anything above 9-B.

 

[TheGatememer]

Im really not sure how many times i have to say that he didnt tank a near 9-A explosion. At this point its just a back and forth of 'he did' vs 'he didnt' so it comes down to the match, three 9-B calcs all at .001 Tons for the rockets. That is less than half of the yield to get to 9-B+ let alone 9-A

I'm not talking about the single rockets. I'm talking about this one, where the accepted end is 0.00412727302 tons, and the baseline for 9-A is 0.005 tons.

And those weapons have also been calced at 9-B, not 9-A. If you want to take the rocket jump and sticky bomb and jump calcs into consideration for this it bumps the number of calcs supporting them being 9-B up to seven from three.

They have been calced as being 9-B yes. My point was that the mercs being one-shot them is an inconsistency, since it's shown that the weakest merc while injured could survive a near 9-A explosion.

We do though, for every verse we do this. And besides, two wrongs dont make a right.

No we don't. Normally, if a calc of a character surviving an X level explosion is calced, then that character is assumed to be that level, regardless if they can get harmed or even killed by weaker explosions. It's frankly not a "two wrongs don't make a right" situation, its a double standard.

With their weapons yeah, which oneshot the other mercs, they wouldnt be 9-A physically.

already addressed in point 2.

Because its not a near 9-A explosion, .001 tons is not even half of 9-A. Other than Pyro's feat there are no other instances of the mercs surviving 9-A explosions without an insane amount of buffs, which only further reinforces the fact that the old 9-A rocket calc is not accurate.

Already addressed on the first point.

It really is seeing as it disproves the mercs scaling to anything 9-A physically when all three of those calcs are .001 Tons of tnt

Once again, that is for a single rocket. The accepted end here is 0.00412727302 tons.

Why is that?

Because the mercs probably got stronger during the events of MvM with the upgrades and all, and Pyro preformed that feat after the events of MvM.

 

[The_Smashor]

Guys, calcs aside, Mercs get 1-shot by their own weapons more times than they don't. You're using 3 pieces of evidence for 9-A Mercs against a boatload of evidence that suggests otherwise.

The only way 9-A Mercs work now is if the base rockets and pills scale to anything above 9-B.

Dealing heavy damage to Giants, who can tank Sentry Buster explosions.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It would take more than heat resistance to survive the explosion Pyro survived.

Hence why it would be an outlier, even uninjured Heavy has been gibbed by rockets and pipe bombs in cinematics

 

[The_Smashor]

Hence why it would be an outlier, even uninjured Heavy has been gibbed by rockets and pipe bombs in cinematics

You forgot about this part:

Scout's extremely casual dialogue also implies this is not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You forgot about this part:

Mkay, can you show it happening more than once? Otherwise this is on the same level of argument as 'the mercs have been fighting for years so they must have been hit by the Cow Mangler and survived at some point'

 

[The_Smashor]

Mkay, can you show it happening more than once? Otherwise this is on the same level of argument as 'the mercs have been fighting for years so they must have been hit by the Cow Mangler and survived at some point'

Scout sees a big-ass explosion and his first thought is "Oh, that must be where Pyro is". I feel like that says something about Pyro.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes because Pyro is best known for their signature explosives

 

[TheGatememer]

Guys, calcs aside, Mercs get 1-shot by their own weapons more times than they don't. You're using 3 pieces of evidence for 9-A Mercs against a boatload of evidence that suggests otherwise.

Still doesn't change the fact that those feats are valid, and not outliers for reasons I've already said. We don't downgrade characters if they are harmed by stuff that is calced to be much weaker than their current tier. It's not a "two wrongs don't make a right" scenario, its a blatant double standard.

The only way 9-A Mercs work now is if the base rockets and pills scale to anything above 9-B.

They would scale to 9-A, since they are capable of harming mercs that can survive 9-A explosions. Not to mention being able to harm robots that can tank sentry buster explosions.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yes because Pyro is best known for their signature explosives

He isn't known for his explosives.

Which makes all the more telling of Pyro's durability when Scout immediately assumes Pyro is in the place with the giant explosion.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

It's not even a calc issue, it's the fact that these Mercs get gibbed more times than they've ever withstood attacks on the level of those gibs.

Remember that MvM is still gameplay, and the canonicity of gameplay is highly dubious. At best MvM would warrant their own key since they have upgrades exclusive to that mode.

 

[The_Smashor]

Remember that MvM is still gameplay, and the canonicity of gameplay is highly dubious. At best MvM would warrant their own key since they have upgrades exclusive to that mode.

The Mercs can still damage and destroy robots without upgrades, and Heavy in particular dosn't even get damage upgrades (Just upgrades that make his gun shoot faster).

 

[TheGatememer]

It's not even a calc issue, it's the fact that these Mercs get gibbed more times than they've ever withstood attacks on the level of those gibs.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I'm saying it's a double standard. If characters have been shown to preform higher feats, then they are assumed to be that tier, as long as it isn't an enormous outlier. They aren't all the sudden downgraded if they die from attacks that are calced to be weaker, those "weaker attacks" are presumed to be on the same tier as whatever said higher feat is, due to being able to harm the character.

In this case, the Rockets and Pipes would be 9-A, due to being able to harm characters that survived 9-A explosions.

Remember that MvM is still gameplay, and the canonicity of gameplay is highly dubious. At best MvM would warrant their own key since they have upgrades exclusive to that mode.

I don't see why it shouldn't be used. If the Giants can survive the Sentry Buster explosions, they can survive it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

He isn't known for his explosives.

Which makes all the more telling of Pyro's durability when Scout immediately assumes Pyro is in the place with the giant explosion.

It was sarcasm my guy

 

[The_Smashor]

It was sarcasm my guy

I know it was sarcasm but it was a good segue to what I was saying.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Was it though? The point of what i was saying is that Pyro does not normally blow up buildings, he burns them. You'd need to provide a lot of evidence if you want to argue that Pyro, the guy known for burning stuff, utilizes explosives enough for it to be a nonchalant thing for him to be caught in them

 

[The_Smashor]

He dosn't necessarily utilize explosives, and I never claimed he did by the way so nice Straw Man, but he most likely gets caught in explosions often given Scout saw a giant explosion and immediately thought "That's Pyro."

 

[TheGatememer]

Regardless of whether or not he does it on a regular basis, he still preformed the feat.