Sword Art Online Speed Downgrade.

[RitsuØ1]

War of Underworld Arc Kirito’s speed is the only one left which the closest that talks about somewhat similar to speed is this text:

Then I fully opened my wings, transformed from the hem of my long coat.
With my left sword in front and my right sword behind, I kicked the air with all of my might.
Since there was only a minuscule distance between me and the enemy, it should have taken under a second for me to charge towards him at full speed. But in this segment of time, I became enshrouded in an infinitely long sensation of acceleration.

The context is kinda vague, so I prefer we pixel scale the anime instead

The laser feat argument is still going on AFAIK

 

[Agnaa]

War of Underworld Arc Kirito’s speed is the only one left which the closest that talks about somewhat similar to speed is this text:

The context is kinda vague, so I prefer we pixel scale the anime instead

Yeah pixel scaling the anime should be good for that quote, imo.

 

[Joycap]

Its 5 million.Also no what i meant is if the underworld runs that many times faster.than normal A.I. in that world talking would be pretty much near light speed for Earths humans perspective.The whole system is running at earths time not underworlds Accelerated time and system still can recognize every speech of every human(A.I.) happening in the underworld.It Should have more than enough capabilities to recognize speeches atleast sub rel speed.

I do not think you understood my argument on the different layers that are factoring in here and how real world and the simulation speeds are vowen into each other. "Recognition" runs at the speed it is receiving data in, because that is simply how it is designed. That is the case everywhere. If an AI doesn't understand you, it will not go "Hmmm, I wonder if this person is speaking fast, let me just check to be sure". I mean, I can go into technicalities how that would cause infinite recursions as the system will just have to check endlessly for ages to see if someone may be saying something that is just a bit too fast.

Remember, Project Alicization is still a software, tied to its hardware limitations, thus it does not have infinite processing power either. So it is illogical at a ground level to assume a non-standard to be the case to begin with, just because it helps you argue what you want to argue.

Can I add to this, and say that it varies what the speed of the underworld is in relation to the real world (FLA), and that is at the discretion of a controller (in this case, RATH)? 1-1 vs Limit Break (5mil), for example?

Spoiler: WoU Spoilers

Episode 11:

(Sync was done for the sake of the fake WoU PvP. Make of that what you will).

Episode 19:

I have more to say, but given the accusations of 'derailment', I'll save that for slightly later. Let's just say I've been auditing this debate in relation to Kirito's place in VS debates for a little while now.

EDIT: oh, I must have missed a page

 

[Kaantantr]

I agree it was very uncalled for no reason to talk down or insult someone's intellect. You might be a mod or a YouTuber but that doesn't give you any right to do so.

I would suggest putting the sentence or wtv in the translation requests to have a person who is well versed in the language give context.

I have not insulted anyone. Saying "You were wrong" is not an insult. If someone is wrong, me, as well as you all, are obligated to call it out. If someone consistently shares false information on a topic he is not well versed with, then that is a massive problem

Regarding putting individual sentences into translation requests is a massive problem as well. A whole lot of misinformation here stems from isolated out of context sentences. Information is not a single sentence. It is a collective thing that gets built up throughout all your experiences with a series. That's why I can argue so much about the series. When it becomes a single sentence featuring "Ray of Light", I can pull up 50 different things from the series to explain what a Divine Weapon is, how its Memory Abilities work, what requirements are needed for that Memory Ability and how its power is generated and how it is unleashed as a result etc. Either way, I have provided a lot of things to work with here and I have not seen anything against them from the higher ups at all. So I am under the assumption things have gone long enough with enough information being shared to come to a conclusion.

Also I may add, why do you want to put a translation request for a series that has a full English translation, almost caught up with the Japanese release, with everything to the relevant discussion here already available in English?

 

[Kaantantr]

For those still wondering about the "Light Beam", here's the V16 instance. Remember, these scenes do not feature an omniscient narrator, but a character perspective narrator, speaking from the perspective of their individual perceptions.

Again, it is Fanatio perspective narrator that states it is a "compressed sunlight shot", so to understand what it really is, we are looking at the actual context provided by the scene. As you can see, the moment Fanatio shoots the Heaven Piercing Blade, Sigurosig is perfectly present in her crosshairs, directly on target. Her target is directly aiming at the upper body of the giant (which you'll see more indications in later excerpts). If this was actually a Light Beam as Fanatio's perception is, the moment it is shot, Sigurosig would be pierced, as it was shot the moment it targeted exactly the upper body. As elements have no materialistic properties, it is a weightless attack (unaffected by gravity) that is also not affected by friction, and lasts until the Spatial Resources blasted with the attack are depleted.

It is very lucky that we have an actual illustration for this scene as well, as we can clearly see it is explicitly Spatial Resources manifesting around the Heaven Piercing Blade as it is charging up for its shot, not light effects, which would be the case if this was actually light based. And as mentioned, Spatial Resources are simply part of the magic system that exists in Underworld and has nothing to do with actual Light.

And the moment of real context comes from Sigurosig's perspective. Again, this portions narrator is once again strictly Sigurosig limited, rather than an omniscient narrator giving us exact system information, again turning us to the context to pinpoint the true nature of the attack.

Now, remember from Fanatio's perspective, she shot on the exact moment she had Sigurosig targeted. Meanwhile, as you can see here, Sigurosig stumbles and falls down. The distinction here before anyone claims a light speed reaction, Sigurosig is not reacting. It is explicitly stated that Sigurosig simply started going limb due to being scared to such a level, that he stumbled and fell down through perfectly natural means. And knowing Fanatio shot the moment Sigurosig was on target, yet this gave enough time (an instant, which according to your standards is to be taken as 1 second) to fall down enough for the shot to miss his entire upper body, miss his entire head, and only graze his right ear.

Again, if the attack was light speed as some people are claiming, Sigurosig's natural fall would not have any time (as it is not a reaction from Sig) to move his entire gigantic body out of the way. The light would have enough time to pierce him 7 times over in various places of his body (if we were to assume earth circumference was flat and put next to each other) until the 8th beam would graze his ear, as the speed of light can rotate around the earth 8 times in a second.

This is yet another one of those clear indications that Fanatio's attack is explicitly shown to be not at the speed of light, with the added bonus of giving me the chance to showcase you it works on Spatial Resources rather than any kind of Light.

You simply cannot take the narrator in Sword Art Online novels at face value. Narrators in SAO do not present information, they present perception of a specific character. Reki puts in great attention to make sure his narrator stays in line with the character it is narrating over and changes tone completely on the rare occasion that he uses an omniscient one, which he even mentions in his afterwords.

Edit: Forgot to add source. Sword Art Online Volume 16, Chapter 18, Part 1

 

[Joycap]

For those still wondering about the "Light Beam", here's the V16 instance. Remember, these scenes do not feature an omniscient narrator, but a character perspective narrator, speaking from the perspective of their individual perceptions.

Again, it is Fanatio perspective narrator that states it is a "compressed sunlight shot", so to understand what it really is, we are looking at the actual context provided by the scene. As you can see, the moment Fanatio shoots the Heaven Piercing Blade, Sigurosig is perfectly present in her crosshairs, directly on target. Her target is directly aiming at the upper body of the giant (which you'll see more indications in later excerpts). If this was actually a Light Beam as Fanatio's perception is, the moment it is shot, Sigurosig would be pierced, as it was shot the moment it targeted exactly the upper body. As elements have no materialistic properties, it is a weightless attack (unaffected by gravity) that is also not affected by friction, and lasts until the Spatial Resources blasted with the attack are depleted.

It is very lucky that we have an actual illustration for this scene as well, as we can clearly see it is explicitly Spatial Resources manifesting around the Heaven Piercing Blade as it is charging up for its shot, not light effects, which would be the case if this was actually light based. And as mentioned, Spatial Resources are simply part of the magic system that exists in Underworld and has nothing to do with actual Light.

And the moment of real context comes from Sigurosig's perspective. Again, this portions narrator is once again strictly Sigurosig limited, rather than an omniscient narrator giving us exact system information, again turning us to the context to pinpoint the true nature of the attack.

Now, remember from Fanatio's perspective, she shot on the exact moment she had Sigurosig targeted. Meanwhile, as you can see here, Sigurosig stumbles and falls down. The distinction here before anyone claims a light speed reaction, Sigurosig is not reacting. It is explicitly stated that Sigurosig simply started going limb due to being scared to such a level, that he stumbled and fell down through perfectly natural means. And knowing Fanatio shot the moment Sigurosig was on target, yet this gave enough time (an instant, which according to your standards is to be taken as 1 second) to fall down enough for the shot to miss his entire upper body, miss his entire head, and only graze his right ear.

Again, if the attack was light speed as some people are claiming, Sigurosig's natural fall would not have any time (as it is not a reaction from Sig) to move his entire gigantic body out of the way. The light would have enough time to pierce him 7 times over in various places of his body (if we were to assume earth circumference was flat and put next to each other) until the 8th beam would graze his ear, as the speed of light can rotate around the earth 8 times in a second.

This is yet another one of those clear indications that Fanatio's attack is explicitly shown to be not at the speed of light, with the added bonus of giving me the chance to showcase you it works on Spatial Resources rather than any kind of Light.

You simply cannot take the narrator in Sword Art Online novels at face value. Narrators in SAO do not present information, they present perception of a specific character. Reki puts in great attention to make sure his narrator stays in line with the character it is narrating over and changes tone completely on the rare occasion that he uses an omniscient one, which he even mentions in his afterwords.

Edit: Forgot to add source. Sword Art Online Volume 16, Chapter 18, Part 1

Agree for different reasons? How well we perceive movement isn't really how lightspeed feats work to begin with, because of the limitations of an animator (or manga / LN illustrator, in this case) working with up to 60FPS (1 frame across a screen > light 1/8th of the way around the world (approx)).

A better example? Alicization S1 - Episode 15:



Point of showing this clip is to prove that Fanatio's attacks have very clear telegraphs to them. Even with that said, Kirito was getting clipped by them constantly.

I admit this isn't arguing whether or not Fanatio's light beams actually are/were light speed, but even if they were, whether or not they would count as a lightspeed feat for those able to dodge them. In this instance, if someone were to look for evidence that Kirito is lightspeed, this wouldn't be one of them. Is this because Kirito is incapable of dodging light, or was it because Fanatio caught Kirito out of position? You decide.

 

[DastardlyDangerousDracoga]

How well we perceive movement isn't really how lightspeed feats work to begin with, because of the limitations of an animator (or manga / LN illustrator, in this case) working with up to 60FPS (1 frame across a screen > light 1/8th of the way around the world (approx)).

Wait a minute, doesn't that fall into Style over Substancy?

 

[Kaantantr]

I certainly am not talking about the Anime here and considering all of its inconsistencies within the series itself, I would completely disregard Anime as a whole. All you'll get will be contradictions. That is why I am only providing citations from the novels.

The instance you mentioned about Kirito getting clipped, the reason Kirito is getting clipped is because there is just too many of them to dodge. Same as when he is dodging bullets in GGO back in Phantom Bullet. He is trying to protect his vitals (upper body/head) while not paying attention to things coming towards his limbs, completely ignoring them and the like, since those will not kill them. Same thing you can observe in Kirito vs Deusolbert as well, when Deusolbert just launches all of his arrows at the very beginning. He is still getting hit by the arrows, like an arrow piercing through his shoe (the arrow salvo was much slower in comparison) because he simply did not care about his limbs getting pierced, the priority was to ensure he wouldn't die, to make sure his vitals were as safe as possible.

Point of showing this clip is to prove that Fanatio's attacks have very clear telegraphs to them.

Also I will add to this, the full memory release from Fanatio in that instance does not have a telegraph as to where it is going to hit, unlike the previous 1v1 instance earlier in the scene I provided citations of. The scene you provided is simply unleashing at completely random, the weapon is not aiming anywhere, it's just attacks getting launched from its tip at random directions, hence why it also pierces Fanatio, as well as the Whirling Blades themselves. Kirito is really attempting to dodge the projectiles there in a split second without previous tells of where they are going to hit. And completely ignores those that would hit non-vital places as he simply does not have the capability of doing that much.

Of course, as mentioned, the attacks are not light speed, with plenty of direct citations of events with very clear indications of chronologies of instances.

 

[Joycap]

Wait a minute, doesn't that fall into Style over Substancy?

No, I'm saying that if that what we are rightly defining as light speed is exactly that (670mill MPH), then no animator can properly convey that without a longer time to communicate aspects of an attack. I've been in discussions with friends who dismiss the existence of any lightspeed feat, because "that's not what I'm seeing literally on my screen" or "That took like two seconds" and so forth.

I certainly am not talking about the Anime here and considering all of its inconsistencies within the series itself, I would completely disregard Anime as a whole. All you'll get will be contradictions. That is why I am only providing citations from the novels.

For explanations of concepts, I respect that (it's easy to forget Higa is full of shit sometimes). But for applications of those concepts in a fight? I can't imagine what illustrations in the LNs would give us that much to go off of, when the Anime has basically the same scenarios, with more detail for power scaling / combat applicable purposes.

I would even be so daring as to take the Anime's fights out of context, and then apply the supposedly better LN logic to them (word of mouth, mostly because I'm an Anime watcher, not an LN reader lol).

The instance you mentioned about Kirito getting clipped, the reason Kirito is getting clipped is because there is just too many of them to dodge. Same as when he is dodging bullets in GGO back in Phantom Bullet. He is trying to protect his vitals (upper body/head) while not paying attention to things coming towards his limbs, completely ignoring them and the like, since those will not kill them. Same thing you can observe in Kirito vs Deusolbert as well, when Deusolbert just launches all of his arrows at the very beginning. He is still getting hit by the arrows, like an arrow piercing through his shoe (the arrow salvo was much slower in comparison) because he simply did not care about his limbs getting pierced, the priority was to ensure he wouldn't die, to make sure his vitals were as safe as possible.

OK, let's unpack a few things here:

I think I see what you're trying to say as far as bringing GGO into this (by my same logic, he wouldn't be a bullet timer because of the amount of times he got clipped there). Bit of an issue, though: Kirito in GGO got clipped like twice (throughout the arc, might I add) in a preliminary round because he misjudged certain ranges. Past that, this was basically never an issue for him outside of Death Gun and that rapier he was using (whatever firearm DG had was not an issue for him much at any point).

Fanatio's fight was VERY different, not just because of the likely speed difference, but because of other sustained injuries by Kirito before Fanatio even proc'd Enhance Armament. In fact, I would make the argument that there were less light beams (serviceable term) for Kirito to dodge in the clip that I just referenced (although I do direct people to Episode 15 to prove that I am not taking anything out of context) than there were bullets for him to deflect in GGO, both requiring similar reaction feats proportional to the ability it would require to do so.

Point being, if survival of essential body parts is what is needed to quantify any speed feat (much less sound, mach or light), then we lower the standard for those who have achieved those feats. I'll leave that to your interpretation.

Also, given the positions of the Integrity Knights in the Axiom Church, would you scale Deusolbert to Fanatio? Asking for prosperity's sake.

Also I will add to this, the full memory release from Fanatio in that instance does not have a telegraph as to where it is going to hit, unlike the previous 1v1 instance earlier in the scene I provided citations of. The scene you provided is simply unleashing at completely random, the weapon is not aiming anywhere, it's just attacks getting launched from its tip at random directions, hence why it also pierces Fanatio, as well as the Whirling Blades themselves. Kirito is really attempting to dodge the projectiles there in a split second without previous tells of where they are going to hit. And completely ignores those that would hit non-vital places as he simply does not have the capability of doing that much.

Of course, as mentioned, the attacks are not light speed, with plenty of direct citations of events with very clear indications of chronologies of instances.

Sorry, that's not what I meant by a telegraph. I meant that the ring of light around the tip of the sword clearly shrunk to it's minimum before going off. I can imagine that's what Kirito was reacting too.

 

[Kaantantr]

For explanations of concepts, I respect that (it's easy to forget Higa is full of shit sometimes). But for applications of those concepts in a fight? I can't imagine what illustrations in the LNs would give us that much to go off of, when the Anime has basically the same scenarios, with more detail for power scaling / combat applicable purposes.

I would even be so daring as to take the Anime's fights out of context, and then apply the supposedly better LN logic to them (word of mouth, mostly because I'm an Anime watcher, not an LN reader lol).

Anime should never be coming into the picture in the first place. What matters is explicit descriptions of events so we can actually be informed of what exactly happened. Check the breakdown of Fanatio vs Sigurosig above. Never once do I argue about what "can be seen" as that is perception, limited to the perspective of a character. I argue on what actually "happened".

OK, let's unpack a few things here:

I think I see what you're trying to say as far as bringing GGO into this (by my same logic, he wouldn't be a bullet timer because of the amount of times he got clipped there). Bit of an issue, though: Kirito in GGO got clipped like twice (throughout the arc, might I add) in a preliminary round because he misjudged certain ranges. Past that, this was basically never an issue for him outside of Death Gun and that rapier he was using (whatever firearm DG had was not an issue for him much at any point).

This point was not about an argument, just a perspective on Kirito's approach to projectiles. Kirito regularly gets clipped against high RoF guns simply because there is too many projectiles to attend to and he simply is not capable of doing that, so he brings his photon sword up to his face in these instances in a diagonal position to deflect any bullet that is heading towards his face/upper body with a quick twitch, whereas he ignores everything else completely.
I mentioned it because this experience of his is the exact logic he uses when Fanatio unleashes the memory ability, which she herself cannot control either. Too many projectiles shooting without any indication as to where they will shoot and they are shooting constantly. In this case, Kirito has no way of knowing where they will hit, so he is basically prioritizing getting his upper body/face out of the way, completely ignoring wherever else he may get hit. This is more of an insight how Kirito approaches the situation, than an argument about his capabilities, because it clearly shows he is not capable to avoid all of them anyways, and he chooses not to try in the first place due to the impossibility of it.

Fanatio's fight was VERY different, not just because of the likely speed difference, but because of other sustained injuries by Kirito before Fanatio even proc'd Enhance Armament. In fact, I would make the argument that there were less light beams (serviceable term) for Kirito to dodge in the clip that I just referenced (although I do direct people to Episode 15 to prove that I am not taking anything out of context) than there were bullets for him to deflect in GGO, both requiring similar reaction feats proportional to the ability it would require to do so.

That is correct. And also a wider range of attack (basically 360 degrees all around) to pay attention to that limits movement further, whereas someone shooting at you, is shooting at you, so you got guaranteed safe places to dodge towards.

Point being, if survival of essential body parts is what is needed to quantify any speed feat (much less sound, mach or light), then we lower the standard for those who have achieved those feats. I'll leave that to your interpretation.

If I am understanding correctly, I do agree with that statement. Though not knowing the full standards yet, I cannot help but mention that there is of course a difference between a simple twitch compared to completely jumping out of the way of something. Not sure if you guys have more specific things that go into details like that though, so I'm just putting it out there.

Also, given the positions of the Integrity Knights in the Axiom Church, would you scale Deusolbert to Fanatio? Asking for prosperity's sake.

Ahh, can you put that into layman's terms so I don't misunderstand, from what I have seen, the scaling standards if followed are quite specific. So what am exactly to compare? Also, doesn't that question actually fit into other forums, since it's completely besides the topic here? That sounds more like Versus Threads.

 

[DastardlyDangerousDracoga]

No, I'm saying that if that what we are rightly defining as light speed is exactly that (670mill MPH), then no animator can properly convey that without a longer time to communicate aspects of an attack. I've been in discussions with friends who dismiss the existence of any lightspeed feat, because "that's not what I'm seeing literally on my screen" or "That took like two seconds" and so forth.

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Joycap]

Anime should never be coming into the picture in the first place. What matters is explicit descriptions of events so we can actually be informed of what exactly happened. Check the breakdown of Fanatio vs Sigurosig above. Never once do I argue about what "can be seen" as that is perception, limited to the perspective of a character. I argue on what actually "happened".

OK, let me put this another way: that illustration of Fanatio in the Light Novel... can you pin that to any similar scenario from the same arc in the Anime? For me, Episode 6 or 7 of WoU comes to mind. Point being that visual conformation can be considered exculpatory evidence to repeated statements and backed up statements (what you are understandably banking on). You mention that you argue on what happened, when for one, you mentioned that these are character perspectives which have their own flaws (for example, I could claim that someone 'bolted like a bat out of hell' I didn't literally see bats from hell, did I?). Similarly, I can turn around to the Anime and it's scenes in question and say "yes, that happened".

This point was not about an argument, just a perspective on Kirito's approach to projectiles. Kirito regularly gets clipped against high RoF guns simply because there is too many projectiles to attend to and he simply is not capable of doing that, so he brings his photon sword up to his face in these instances in a diagonal position to deflect any bullet that is heading towards his face/upper body with a quick twitch, whereas he ignores everything else completely.
I mentioned it because this experience of his is the exact logic he uses when Fanatio unleashes the memory ability, which she herself cannot control either. Too many projectiles shooting without any indication as to where they will shoot and they are shooting constantly. In this case, Kirito has no way of knowing where they will hit, so he is basically prioritizing getting his upper body/face out of the way, completely ignoring wherever else he may get hit. This is more of an insight how Kirito approaches the situation, than an argument about his capabilities, because it clearly shows he is not capable to avoid all of them anyways, and he chooses not to try in the first place due to the impossibility of it.

Check the scene I linked again. His only form of protection was his sword, and that was literally down by his leg.

And because it will be inevitably asked: are there not any images / panels from the Light Novel(s) of Kirito fighting Fanatio that we can draw similar observations from? Because we obviously have very different frames of reference.

Ahh, can you put that into layman's terms so I don't misunderstand, from what I have seen, the scaling standards if followed are quite specific. So what am exactly to compare?

Basically if Fanatio were to spar with Deusolbert, who do you think would win? Or would it end in a stalemate, and why?

 

[Kaantantr]

OK, let me put this another way: that illustration of Fanatio in the Light Novel... can you pin that to any similar scenario from the same arc in the Anime? For me, Episode 6 or 7 of WoU comes to mind. Point being that visual conformation can be considered exculpatory evidence to repeated statements and backed up statements (what you are understandably banking on).

First off, I am not banking on anything but written-in-text Light Novel content. Nothing else matters. I just thought it would be cool for you guys to see a visual representation, as most people do not pay attention to the amount of detail abec puts into his art. Divine Weapons' memory abilities work on the basis of Spatial Resources, manifesting spatial resources in accordance with their database entries regarding what they were before, and to maintain this process (you cannot generate Spatial Resources out of nothing) they use their durability (Life) as a source, expending it to maintain the ongoing Memory Ability or draw power from the available Spatial Resources already existing around as a source. A good example of the latter is both the Night Sky Sword and the Blue Rose Sword. Although that is just a secondary source, as it is usually not potent enough, but again, going there would stray too far away from the topic. The point is, showcasing the Spatial Resources manifesting around the Heaven Piercing Blade was just a neat thing for you to look at, not an argument. That is how it works, whether abec included this detail or not.

You mention that you argue on what happened, when for one, you mentioned that these are character perspectives which have their own flaws (for example, I could claim that someone 'bolted like a bat out of hell' I didn't literally see bats from hell, did I?). Similarly, I can turn around to the Anime and it's scenes in question and say "yes, that happened".

You are mixing a flaw in perception to simple phrasing/idioms. Your example is simply a common phrase.

There is a difference calling something that looks like a light beam a "light beam" because that's the most you know to approximate, and simply stating you were so scared that your body went limb and fell down. One is a visual description in the form of an approximation, the other is a clear occurrence. Unless you are claiming a simple tumble is not a simple tumble, in which case, you have something to prove and based on that text, you have nothing to cite as evidence. It's very explicitly stating "He tumbled".

Check the scene I linked again. His only form of protection was his sword, and that was literally down by his leg.

And because it will be inevitably asked: are there not any images / panels from the Light Novel(s) of Kirito fighting Fanatio that we can draw similar observations from? Because we obviously have very different frames of reference.

I think you are completely missing the point I am trying to make here and causing things to veer in a completely different topic, so I am not going to elaborate any further on what I was trying to say here.

Basically if Fanatio were to spar with Deusolbert, who do you think would win? Or would it end in a stalemate, and why?

Aside from the fact that I do not like pitting characters against each other in the way VSWiki does it (imo, Neutralverse is a flawed concept, as in most cases, universes are part of a characters source of power, and battles are in nature very circumstantial events to begin with where the setting defines possibilities), this is completely off the topic, so I will refrain from answering it too.

 

[Galactic_Astronaut]

Following this because i can predict this will be chaotic as **** in a moment. This thread alone made 2 people join. Hmmmmm.

 

[RitsuØ1]

This is going to be the New Bleach CRT

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

This is going to be the New Bleach CRT

I swear on my manhood, this thread can't be as bad as Bleach Crt. You can be comfortable with this.

 

[AKM sama]

Let's stop with the comments that derail the thread. That's how it starts.

 

[DMUA]

I mean, even assuming it is a real laser, the whole scene is absolutely aimdodging through and through given what gamerturk has pulled up. Kirito manifested the mirror just before it fired and it took a fraction of a second (Which a real laser absolutely wouldn't do, mind you) to reflect back at her.

 

[Kaantantr]

I mean, even assuming it is a real laser, the whole scene is absolutely aimdodging through and through given what gamerturk has pulled up. Kirito manifested the mirror just before it fired and it took a fraction of a second (Which a real laser absolutely wouldn't do, mind you) to reflect back at her.

I was actually going to mention that but I was not sure if it would be relevant for your standards or not, so I just tried to be as elaborate as possible for you to judge the information. A laser would indeed directly bounce off, rather than going into a clash with the object.

 

[DMUA]

It absolutely is.

 

[Helestias]

Okay,this isn't going anywhere.If you all are saying that his reaction speed isn't Rel then we should just ignore that as according to Gamerturk it was literal aim dodging and light isn't light speed.The calculation between a low balled estimated distance between planet can be used for travel speed and for reaction if there is any other than the speed of light thing, we should use that.And if even that isn't possible,pixel calc for a anime fight is also a good method

 

[RitsuØ1]

OK. The main point of this CRT was to downgrade the Star King Kirito/End of Alicization Kirito's Speed Key. I say we leave the rest of the speed stuff later as it is irrelevant to the CRT and the OP.

Calculation Here

Now, can someone just look and accept this calculation and then close this CRT afterward?

 

[Kaantantr]

I would highly advise against using Machine Translation as a source, as it is just outright terrible translation due to MTL not being able to understand context and Japanese is a very context heavy language.

 

[Agnaa]

Is there a non-machine translation of that relevant quote?

 

[Kaantantr]

Is there a non-machine translation of that relevant quote?

There is not. Fan Translations of the main series has stopped with Defan on Volume 18 as Yen Press has come close to catching up, so no Fan Translator is bothering anymore. We are the only SAO Fan Translators left on the scene at this point as Dreadful Decoding and we focus on things Yen Press does not license.

But based on our experiences with Machine Translations, simply not having Machine Translation as a source is better than having it. They are completely untrustworthy.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There is not. Fan Translations of the main series has stopped with Defan on Volume 18 as Yen Press has come close to catching up, so no Fan Translator is bothering anymore. We are the only SAO Fan Translators left on the scene at this point as Dreadful Decoding and we focus on things Yen Press does not license.

But based on our experiences with Machine Translations, simply not having Machine Translation as a source is better than having it. They are completely untrustworthy.

Damn, and your chief translator is busy with IRL doctor work...

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, we should get someone on our wiki to translate the raws, then.

 

[Kaantantr]

Yeah, we should get someone on our wiki to translate the raws, then.

If the exact raw is provided, I can hand it over to Gsi for a translation. It's better to give it to someone who knows the context, than taking an excerpt out of context for someone to translate.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why don't we use the entire context and have one of our Japanese translators and your translator translate and then compare

 

[Agnaa]

Why don't we use the entire context and have one of our Japanese translators and your translator translate and then compare

That seems like unnecessary extra work, really. Any translator doing it would be fine, I just figured that the ones gamerturk knows would have been too busy.

 

[Kaantantr]

The main reason I insist on an actual translation is because Kirito "being faster" than the Abyssal Horror does not make sense, as we all know, Abyssal Horror was able to run away from Kirito and Asuna whenever they managed to bring it to its death.

Why don't we use the entire context and have one of our Japanese translators and your translator translate and then compare

I mean, we can do it, I don't know how many volunteers you guys have and how often translations are requested so I was just offering an in house alternative as SAO Wikia.

 

[RitsuØ1]

There is not. Fan Translations of the main series has stopped with Defan on Volume 18 as Yen Press has come close to catching up, so no Fan Translator is bothering anymore. We are the only SAO Fan Translators left on the scene at this point as Dreadful Decoding and we focus on things Yen Press does not license.

But based on our experiences with Machine Translations, simply not having Machine Translation as a source is better than having it. They are completely untrustworthy.

I guess we can wait for Team Kuro to catch up with their translations

 

[Kaantantr]

I guess we can wait for Team Kuro to catch up with their translations

Even to this day, we have no indication of Team Kuro being actual translators and not Machine Translators who do an overpass on the Machine Translation. Fan Translation teams are usually very transparent about their translation and their staff. For example, on all Dreadful Decoding translations, you will find half a dozen staff members being credited as part of the entire translation, editorial and publishing process. Same is true about Defan's translations. Same was true long before Defan during Tap's era. Despite his translation being very shaky that Defan outright re-translated some of his stuff iirc, Tap was still a proper translation team.

Team Kuro has surprisingly little information on how they translate or who they are. And by that I mean they have absolutely 0 information.

 

[Vietthai96]

I actually don't know that fan stop translation

 

[Kaantantr]

Okay, I have a couple issues with the blog post now that I have went over it in my free time. First off, I have direct statements from Defan that Yen Press translation takes precedence due to the obvious fact that Stephen Paul has much more experience in translating than he has, working for over 15 years officially, let alone his non-professional work before becoming an official translator, thus Defan himself considers his translation deprecated. The sentiment of prioritizing official translations over fan translations is also shared by AKM when I talked with him. You will also see the fan translation got entire meanings wrong at times, for example, Abyssal Beast does not did not decide to allow anything. It is a Named Monster, the moment something grabs its aggro, it will give chase it. So, I kindly request that you switch your quote into the official translation. Here are the equivalents of your excerpts from the official translation:

The rules of the Underworld Space Force were absolute, but even their drill instructor couldn’t see them out beyond the atmosphere. And it was a whole three-hour journey to reach the companion star of Admina. That meant there was room for a little error.
[...]
Through careful observation, they learned that the spacebeast orbited between the two planets on a fixed speed and trajectory. The best they could do to minimize its threat was to restrict interstellar flight so that they could safely avoid its path.
[...]
The dragoncraft were improved again and again, until they were capable of leaving the atmosphere altogether. He [Kirito] found the companion planet that orbited Solus with Cardina, and he named it Admina.

I have taken the liberty to break things into paragraphs and add [...] to highlight sentences/paragraphs were skipped in between these provided excerpts, as well as added [Kirito] next to he for clarifying purposes, as such a citation needs it due to lack of context.

Secondly, I feel like this is because I am out of the loop, so I'd be glad if you fill me in, but based on your blog post, I have no idea why you used the Mercury calculation at all. I can see why you used Venus as you explained it in the post, but you never explain why you used Mercury at all, and I should not be mistaken in my thinking that the use of Mercury calculation also warrants a single line that you are using it as a high-balled calculation and why you picked Mercury for your high balled calculation.

And then again, I do have a massive issue with the use of Mercury in this case. As you correctly identified that if Mercury and Earth are on the opposite sides of the sun, the distance between them is indeed Earth to Sun to Mercury. However, if you are looking for a high ball, Venus is very much still the high ball here, which you have completely overlooked. Venus is both the low-ball and high-ball due to being so far away from the Suncompared to Mercury that when on the same side, it is closer to Earth than Mercury is, and when it is on the opposite side, it is further away from the Earth than Mercury is. As you can imagine, Venus being closer to Earth means Venus is also farther away from the Sun as a result, and thus when it is on the opposite side of the Sun, it is farther away from Earth than Mercury is. Venus simply has a larger distance range to Earth on both sides compared to Mercury.

Earth to Mercury when they are closest together: roughly 83 million km
Earth to Mercury when they are the farthest away: 210 million km
Earth to Venus when they are closest together: roughly 43 million km (low ball)
Earth to Venus when they are the farthest away: 257 million km (highball)

Although I have taken the statistical real life values directly from earth to the respective planet, you will get the exact same result if you do a (Earth to Sun + Sun to [Planet]) and the only difference will be the lack of a third dimensional difference, making the total distance slightly different, but it won't make enough difference to make Mercury a high ball in any scenario. And if you really want to reduce your calculation to two dimensions like that, you should do it for the distance when the planets are closest too and that would be (Earth to Sun - Sun to [Planet]), rather than (Earth to Planet). As things stand, aside from your highball choice of planet being wrong, you are also taking a 3 dimensional distance for one measurement, while taking a 2 dimensional distance for the other. So unless I am missing something here, I do not see that calculation holding up at all.

I am also not exactly sure about the distances of planets you used in the first place too. Some of them are exact closest values, whereas sometimes, they are average values, so I am a bit confused on that too. But the bigger problem is still what I mentioned in the above paragraph, that your highball calculation picked the wrong planet to highball with, as well as using a 2D plotted distance for one and a 3D plotted distance for the other, resulting in an inconsistency.

The size of the Underworld currently is unknown

This is completely incorrect, unless you specifically mean as an exact volume/radius of existing space. The size of Underworld currently is the size of the planets' orbits, as Underworld only consists of Solus and the two planets, Cardina and Admina rotating around him as is explicitly stated by Reki himself:

That's right. The current maximum size of the Underworld is one sun and two planets orbiting it.

And coming to your end note, I already covered that Machine Translation should never be relied on, but again, aside from the issues pointed above, I do not think something should ever be approved based on a "I know that the Abyssal Horror is faster when chasing Kirito, but I can't manage to find the Japanese RAW for that as of right now". You cannot try to have an exact calculation, but then have the pivotal argument to be "I know, just trust me guys".

Unless you can specifically confirm Kirito is faster than the Abyssal Horror (in which case, it would not be able to run away from Kirito in all their earlier encounters), this calculation has nothing to do with Kirito. And in that case, the FTL mention on Kirito should just simply be revoked entirely, as there is no basis for it to be there, since the 10 minute mention was a massive error in the first place.

Again, I have not participated in any of these calculations before, but all of these look like significant issues and inconsistencies to me in methodology, so I'd be glad if you could give my feedback a check to see if I am missing information in my observations @DMUA

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah the machine translation should not have been used, and it should have been made clear that those sentences had other bits of text cut out.

Those methodological errors, as far as I can tell, mainly concern the high-balled end, which isn't accepted. It may seem weird, but a lot of calculations have multiple ends for calc group members to choose between. Sometimes these are based on bad reasoning, but are still left in the blog post, as the only part that really matters is the part that's accepted.

Those issues with the scaling also sound fair, to me. Stuff like that shouldn't be taken on someone's word.

 

[AKM sama]

So, I kindly request that you switch your quote into the official translation.

This is a simple request. I don't see anybody having a problem with that.

Secondly, I feel like this is because I am out of the loop, so I'd be glad if you fill me in

The currently accepted value is for the minimum distance between Earth and Venus when they are on the same side. Some people leave the highball values on the calc blog as reference for others who want to go with the higher interpretation with what we're given. And the highest anybody could realistically interpret it is the distance between Earth and Mercury when they are on opposite sides, as this does not contradict anything for now. You can ignore the highball value. The lowball value is what is accepted for our purposes.

 

[Kaantantr]

The currently accepted value is for the minimum distance between Earth and Venus when they are on the same side. Some people leave the highball values on the calc blog as reference for others who want to go with the higher interpretation with what we're given. And the highest anybody could realistically interpret it is the distance between Earth and Mercury when they are on opposite sides, as this does not contradict anything for now. You can ignore the highball value. The lowball value is what is accepted for our purposes.

Those methodological errors, as far as I can tell, mainly concern the high-balled end, which isn't accepted. It may seem weird, but a lot of calculations have multiple ends for calc group members to choose between. Sometimes these are based on bad reasoning, but are still left in the blog post, as the only part that really matters is the part that's accepted.

Ah, so that it why it doesn't even have an argument for its use before hand like Venus does, it's just there for "funsies" to act as a reference for those interested, but is not actually part of the claim being made? Got it, thanks.

I was going by the assumption that the entire blog post is something like a "justification" in its entirety like a typical debate would work, so I was being critical of everything I saw. Learning bit by bit ^^

 

[Agnaa]

I'd say it's more like laying out all the options for the evaluators to choose between. I think it's bad form to include ends based off of bad logic, and would have explained the errors with the higher end if it was accepted, but it's nothing that HAS to be removed.

For a better example of including multiple ends, here's two of my calculations that do that, which has more solid justification for those ends existing.

 

[DastardlyDangerousDracoga]

so I'd be glad if you could give my feedback a check to see if I am missing information in my observations @DMUA

You actually can't notify staff like that because that's only exclusive to said staff.