Sword Art Online Speed Downgrade.

[Kaantantr]

We simply have no mentions of Asuna in flight at all. The only instance of her flying is at the end of Alicization when they fly via incarnate wings and that just ends with a "flying off into the horizon" and is never followed up with any specifics. In Moon Cradle, there is a flight scene, however Asuna does not fly on her own, but is rather carried by Kirito again, same as in War of Underworld. So I have no idea why Asuna even has a speed rating of being comparable to Kirito in the first place, let alone FTL, when she does not even have a single flight feat on her own. I would just recommend getting rid of that entirely as it has 0 basis.

 

[DMUA]

Actually, oh yeah, Combat Speed was something I did overlook

I'm not entirely sure if they have feats while fighting and going at full speed, or at least, if the Mechadragons do, and thus they should just be Sub-Rel or if they should have another rating

 

[Joycap]

We simply have no mentions of Asuna in flight at all. The only instance of her flying is at the end of Alicization when they fly via incarnate wings and that just ends with a "flying off into the horizon" and is never followed up with any specifics. In Moon Cradle, there is a flight scene, however Asuna does not fly on her own, but is rather carried by Kirito again, same as in War of Underworld. So I have no idea why Asuna even has a speed rating of being comparable to Kirito in the first place, let alone FTL, when she does not even have a single flight feat on her own. I would just recommend getting rid of that entirely as it has 0 basis.

Well, I suppose Konno Yuuki is just a ghost n-

...Oh wait...

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any results that can be applied here, and if so, is somebody willing to handle it?

 

[Kaantantr]

I am not exactly sure what is causing a hold up at the moment, but here's my summary of where we are right now.

Despite multiple Calc Group Members commenting here leading to off-topic posts, only DMUA has shared acknowledgement to use the calculation (mid-ball with average distance) to remove Kirito's FTL travel speed (which is happening with or without this calculation anyways) and the calculation suggests Kirito can potentially have Sub-Relativistic as his speed at most, however his exact speed is unknown. So "Unknown, at most Sub-Relativistic" until further information is provided in the next volume.

From what I understand, the "Reaction Speed" is causing an issue. Not sure if we absolutely need a Reaction Speed to commit to a Travel Speed, but earlier in the thread, we have concluded that Kirito is not reacting to any sort of "Light" attack, and the attack he is reacting to acts as a Sniper Rifle. So if we absolutely need a Reaction Speed as well to be able to commit this, the feat is right there. Also, he is not exactly reacting to gunfire, but rather is reacting before a gunfire happens to where it looks like the gun will fire pre-emptively.

Asuna's FTL is to be removed entirely. It is a completely baseless claim. Saying Asuna is comparable to Kirito is completely false, as in reality we have seen time and time again they do not compare as stated above. And on top of this, Kirito is not FTL in the first place, which was the point of this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I would appreciate staff help here, as my attention is too divided between many different tasks to be able to properly analyse this.

We do need a combat speed value though, yes.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Has anyone asked StarKing to come give feedback on this?

IIRC he came back to the site somehow?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Has anyone asked StarKing to come give feedback on this?

IIRC he came back to the site somehow?

Problemexe is StarKing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Problemexe is StarKing.

Ah okie. It’s been 4 pages so has he said anything about this?

And btw, what’s gonna happen with the Mechdragons speed?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah okie. It’s been 4 pages so has he said anything about this?

And btw, what’s gonna happen with the Mechdragons speed?

Yes, a lot of things.

I have no **** ******* clue!

 

[Bernkastelll]

Asuna ratings would be "Unknown"?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Asuna ratings would be "Unknown"?

MMMYYEEEEEESSSSS!

 

[Antvasima]

No pointless derailing please.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I ask if the mechdragons speed will change oof not because if doesn’t, maybe Asunas speed can get scaled to the Abbysal Horror?

According to its page, it’s => the mechdragons in speed.

 

[Joycap]

From what I understand, the "Reaction Speed" is causing an issue. Not sure if we absolutely need a Reaction Speed to commit to a Travel Speed, but earlier in the thread, we have concluded that Kirito is not reacting to any sort of "Light" attack, and the attack he is reacting to acts as a Sniper Rifle. So if we absolutely need a Reaction Speed as well to be able to commit this, the feat is right there. Also, he is not exactly reacting to gunfire, but rather is reacting before a gunfire happens to where it looks like the gun will fire pre-emptively.

I'm probably going to end up with a bollocking for bringing up something way outside the scope of SAO power scaling tiers, but I'd put this down to a structural issue with how VS wiki quantifies speed tiers - or rather, it's how this information is presented. We have distinctions for lifting and striking strength, why not split reaction speed, travel and combat speed into separate categories?

Or am I advocating for article overhaul at this point?

 

[AKM sama]

I am not exactly sure what is causing a hold up at the moment, but here's my summary of where we are right now.

Despite multiple Calc Group Members commenting here leading to off-topic posts, only DMUA has shared acknowledgement to use the calculation (mid-ball with average distance) to remove Kirito's FTL travel speed (which is happening with or without this calculation anyways) and the calculation suggests Kirito can potentially have Sub-Relativistic as his speed at most, however his exact speed is unknown. So "Unknown, at most Sub-Relativistic" until further information is provided in the next volume.

From what I understand, the "Reaction Speed" is causing an issue. Not sure if we absolutely need a Reaction Speed to commit to a Travel Speed, but earlier in the thread, we have concluded that Kirito is not reacting to any sort of "Light" attack, and the attack he is reacting to acts as a Sniper Rifle. So if we absolutely need a Reaction Speed as well to be able to commit this, the feat is right there. Also, he is not exactly reacting to gunfire, but rather is reacting before a gunfire happens to where it looks like the gun will fire pre-emptively.

Asuna's FTL is to be removed entirely. It is a completely baseless claim. Saying Asuna is comparable to Kirito is completely false, as in reality we have seen time and time again they do not compare as stated above. And on top of this, Kirito is not FTL in the first place, which was the point of this thread.

@DMUA Can you apply the changes?

 

[RitsuØ1]

@DMUA Can you apply the changes?

DMUA already applied the speed changes

 

[Kaantantr]

I would remove the word "Interstellar" there. The Underworld term "interstellar" does not mean the same "interstellar" we use in real life. That's just a prime candidate for confusion for someone who doesn't bother checking the context. And nobody who reads a Wiki bothers checking context, so we gotta aim to minimizing potential misunderstandings.

 

[Antvasima]

Please elaborate further/explain the differences.

 

[Kaantantr]

Underworlders inside the simulation do not refer to planets as "planets". They are called "Companion Stars". And that's where the mention of "interstellar" travel comes from. They aren't travelling between the stars, they are just travelling between what they call stars. It's a basic shift of terminology. If you refer to your planets as "stars", then your travel between them becomes "interstellar" because the term has been moved.

Based on our real world terminology, the travel itself is not interstellar, as it does not take place between stars/star systems. Unless the terminology shift is elaborately explained (which isn't done as it's too much of a tangent), it should just be described with our understanding of the words.

 

[Joycap]

Underworlders inside the simulation do not refer to planets as "planets". They are called "Companion Stars". And that's where the mention of "interstellar" travel comes from. They aren't travelling between the stars, they are just travelling between what they call stars. It's a basic shift of terminology. If you refer to your planets as "stars", then your travel between them becomes "interstellar" because the term has been moved.

Well isn't that slightly contradictory to what we discussed earlier about the "light beam" not actually being so because the documented sight was recited from Fanatio's point of view?

 

[Kaantantr]

slightly contradictory

How is it "contradictory" when it is the exact same case? They refer to something with a different word that it isn't.

 

[Joycap]

How is it "contradictory" when it is the exact same case? They refer to something with a different word that it isn't.

No I mean in the sense that a beam of light isn't per se light speed, in the same sense as they don't see planets as planets (comparison stars being a redefined term). I'd hazard a guess they aren't planets because of the whole 'skybox' thing?

 

[Kaantantr]

No I mean in the sense that a beam of light isn't per se light speed, in the same sense as they don't see planets as planets (comparison stars being a redefined term). I'd hazard a guess they aren't planets because of the whole 'skybox' thing?

You are significantly lacking context here that requires me to go absolutely basic, so I'm just going to ask you rewind a bit in the chat or read the calculation blog I did, where all of this is explained.

 

[Antvasima]

Underworlders inside the simulation do not refer to planets as "planets". They are called "Companion Stars". And that's where the mention of "interstellar" travel comes from. They aren't travelling between the stars, they are just travelling between what they call stars. It's a basic shift of terminology. If you refer to your planets as "stars", then your travel between them becomes "interstellar" because the term has been moved.

Based on our real world terminology, the travel itself is not interstellar, as it does not take place between stars/star systems. Unless the terminology shift is elaborately explained (which isn't done as it's too much of a tangent), it should just be described with our understanding of the words.

Okay. No problem. "Interplanetary" Range seems better then.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm probably going to end up with a bollocking for bringing up something way outside the scope of SAO power scaling tiers, but I'd put this down to a structural issue with how VS wiki quantifies speed tiers - or rather, it's how this information is presented. We have distinctions for lifting and striking strength, why not split reaction speed, travel and combat speed into separate categories?

Or am I advocating for article overhaul at this point?

We already do split them into separate categories, it's explained on our Speed page.

 

[Joycap]

We already do split them into separate categories, it's explained on our Speed page.

Let me rephrase that: I mean on individual character pages do you put separate power types (lift / strike etc.) on separate lines, but not speed types (reaction / combat / travel). A lot of pages are structured thusly:

Spoiler: Standard page format - individual characters

Speed: (insert text)

Lifting strength: (insert text)

Striking strength: (insert text)

Spoiler: What standard page format should more ideally be with speed distinctions separated (what I was trying to describe):

Reaction speed: (insert text)

Travel speed: (insert text)

Combat speed: (insert text)

Lifting strength: (insert text)

Striking strength: (insert text)

 

[Agnaa]

I think our current way of doing it is fine. Your proposal is better in some ways (encourages people to actually think about those different speed ratings instead of mindlessly slapping on one even if it doesn't scale to all their stats), and worse in some ways (some characters legitimately have the same justification for all their speed ratings, which makes the formatting awkward, on top of that, it'd require editing tens of thousands of pages for an extremely minor reason).

 

[AKM sama]

I made the minor change here.

If there is nothing else to discuss here, we can close this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Is this acceptable to you @Agnaa and @Kaantantr , or do other character profile pages in our wiki need to be adjusted as well?

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Relavistic should be deleted from Klein.
Relavistic should be deleted from Agil.
Relavistic should be deleted from Lisbeth.
Relavistic should be deleted from Sinon and Leafa.
Relavistic should be deleted from Eiji.
(Some are sub relavistic and some can be deleted directly, I just wanted to mention.)

 

[Kaantantr]

Is this acceptable to you @Agnaa and @Kaantantr , or do other character profile pages in our wiki need to be adjusted as well?

For Asuna, "Sub-Relativistic (Comparable to Kirito)" should definitely be removed. There isn't a single flight feat of Asuna to substantiate that statement.

Anything more I would say is not directly related to this thread and I have not looked deep enough as to why every single character have a Relativistic speed... But wait, Isn't "Relativistic" higher than "Sub-Relativistic", which is what this calculation states the highest Kirito can potentially be?

So yeah, I certainly agree with Yaragi. None of those characters should have any of that speed at all. No need to cross out Eiji, he is included in the Relativistic removal as well.

The only reason Kirito, on the offset chance, could potentially be as fast as SubRel, solely because he has flight via element propulsion. None of the other characters ever do such a thing to be "comparable to Kirito". Sinon can be argued, but she is pretty slow in her flight, same as pre-Star King Kirito.

Edit: One thing I want to quickly add, I feel absolutely clueless when looking at these character profiles whether their speed is regarding their reaction speed or travel speed, it doesn't feel clear at all what the speed is referring to. Is it supposed to be this way?

 

[DastardlyDangerousDracoga]

Edit: One thing I want to quickly add, I feel absolutely clueless when looking at these character profiles whether their speed is regarding their reaction speed or travel speed, it doesn't feel clear at all what the speed is referring to. Is it supposed to be this way?

The profiles are generally supposed to list the Characters *combat speed, but there are circumstances when considering reaction, travel, and what not.

 

[Joycap]

For Asuna, "Sub-Relativistic (Comparable to Kirito)" should definitely be removed. There isn't a single flight feat of Asuna to substantiate that statement.

Just so we're on the same page, what are the flight tiers in Alfheim, if at all?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I ask if the mechdragons speed will change oof not because if doesn’t, maybe Asunas speed can get scaled to the Abbysal Horror?

According to its page, it’s => the mechdragons in speed.

Again, whats going on with this^?

 

[Kaantantr]

We only have a clear speed for Dragon Jets (both transport and Mechadragons). And Kirito is slower than a transport Dragon Jet, hence why his speed can at most be SubRel, while it is likely much lower than that, however no explicit information is known aside from "faster than a dragon" mention in v18. It takes him over 5 minutes to fly through the small distance from the ruins to the World's End Altar.

But due to how many things are already established as they are on the profiles, if I were to bring that into equation, some people would raise pitchforks stating "That is pre-Star King era". So I am just taking things step by step. Imo, even SubRel is way too much for SK Kirito, but currently, it is better than FTL and was able to collect direct statements to bring down in a reasonable amount of time. In reality, SK Speed should simply be unknown as there is no reasonable flight feat to reference with a speed in regards to Kirito too, but I'll challenge the baseless claim another day because it will receive a lot of pushback and I'd rather not "demolish" a fan favorite profile page as my first participation.

 

[Kaantantr]

Somewhat relevant question. Most statements on profile pages do not come with citations. How do I know where they are sourced from? One of the things I fear the most is that I will have to disprove a lot of baseless claims, and as you can imagine, "something that didn't happen" is not exactly easy to prove as it did not happen, so I need to show the misunderstanding that was brought up to back up the claim and deconstruct that.

Is that only available via checking edit summaries? Is there actually an easy way of checking the edit summaries for an individual addition/change?

 

[Agnaa]

Somewhat relevant question. Most statements on profile pages do not come with citations. How do I know where they are sourced from? One of the things I fear the most is that I will have to disprove a lot of baseless claims, and as you can imagine, "something that didn't happen" is not exactly easy to prove as it did not happen, so I need to show the misunderstanding that was brought up to back up the claim and deconstruct that.

Is that only available via checking edit summaries? Is there actually an easy way of checking the edit summaries for an individual addition/change?

Yeah not all pages are great with sourcing statements, better sourcing has been a gradual improvement over the years.

There isn't a very quick way to search through edit summaries for a change.

Something that's helpful is that editors are now required to link threads where changes were discussed, but not all edits follow this, and older edits use the internal forum format which needs to be converted to the new forum format.

Whenever I'm looking through a page's history to see when a change was made, I just use the divide and conquer method. Pick a random point in the page's history (or the halfway point), see if that statement's on the page, if not pick a newer point, if it's there pick an older point, until you can track down the exact edit where it was added.

 

[Kaantantr]

Yeah not all pages are great with sourcing statements, better sourcing has been a gradual improvement over the years.

There isn't a very quick way to search through edit summaries for a change.

Something that's helpful is that editors are now required to link threads where changes were discussed, but not all edits follow this, and older edits use the internal forum format which needs to be converted to the new forum format.

Whenever I'm looking through a page's history to see when a change was made, I just use the divide and conquer method. Pick a random point in the page's history (or the halfway point), see if that statement's on the page, if not pick a newer point, if it's there pick an older point, until you can track down the exact edit where it was added.

Ah, Binary Search strikes again... Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[DMUA]

It takes him over 5 minutes to fly through the small distance from the ruins to the World's End Altar.

He was way weaker in the underworld, though. He had 200 years to far surpass that speed.

Now, again, I'm not entirely sure if possible flight capabilities actually would scale to combat, but if it does, Asuna scale in that capacity to be sure.