Super Saiyan God should not have a finite multiplier

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This will just be a logic problem, no need for anything else than my words for this. Currently SSG is assumed to have a 250,000x multiplier iirc.

The gap between any non-god form and SSG should be extra-dimensional, at least in power. This comes from the fact SSG makes Goku go from Tier 4 to Tier 2. It's quite literally as simple as that. By giving it a finite multiplier you are thereby stating without a doubt that the gap between, Base Form and SSG is finite. It is not. Thus, the finite power multiplier should be removed entirely, it can keep it's speed multiplier though.

This won't change anything in terms of actual scaling, though. Make it official.

This is technically an upgrade because I'm arguing that the multiplier is immeasurable, but it's also a practical downgrade because you can't use them numbers. Real nice, huh?

EDIT: This thread's purpose is to scrap the current multiplier entirely, not propose an actual mathematically infinite multiplier. I meant immeasurable as "we can't give an accurate estimate"

AGREE:
DISAGREE:
NEUTRAL:

 

[Killerdrone123]

Seems logical I agree

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

This is technically an upgrade because I'm arguing that the multiplier is immeasurable, but it's also a practical downgrade because you can't use them numbers. Real nice, huh?

The biggest enemy of DB scalers are themselves

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I agree on paper, in execution might lead to some outlandish proposals. It's hard to pin point what the exact multiplier is. Of course it's some otherworldly power up so great that the existence of Godly Ki makes it a bigger gap above SSJ3 than even SSJ3 was above base form. But at the same time, considering how often Goku's zenkais buff him up to the point where his base form surpasses how strong he was as a SSG or SSB, treating the gaps as such will get real crazy and possibly out of hand. It's also the same issue as Ultra Instinct Sign having a similar gap far above SSB Kaioken, but he did grow to where the SSB form surpassed how strong UIS was the 2nd time. Then he finally reached it a 3rd time which was stronger yet.

If it becomes something along the lines of "Becoming Tier 1 via stacking multipliers," than that's obviously going to get a hard no. I prefer trying to calculate the minimums and acknowledge that the actual multipliers are bigger gaps that could be mentioned in foot notes and/or blog descriptions though.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

While I agree on paper, in execution might lead to some outlandish proposals. It's hard to pin point what the exact multiplier is. Of course it's some otherworldly power up so great that the existence of Godly Ki makes it a bigger gap above SSJ3 than even SSJ3 was above base form. But at the same time, considering how often Goku's zenkais buff him up to the point where his base form surpasses how strong he was as a SSG or SSB, treating the gaps as such will get real crazy and possibly out of hand. It's also the same issue as Ultra Instinct Sign having a similar gap far above SSB Kaioken, but he did grow to where the SSB form surpassed how strong UIS was the 2nd time. Then he finally reached it a 3rd time which was stronger yet.

If it becomes something along the lines of"Becoming Tier 1 via stacking multipliers," than that's obviously going to get a hard no.

Oh no, that's not even possible even with this kind of multiplication.

I prefer trying to calculate the minimums and acknowledge that the actual multipliers are bigger gaps that could be mentioned in foot notes and/or blog descriptions though.

If the minimum is outright misrepresenting the form, I say we make it ambiguous, instead of actually giving a value.

I'm not trying to propose an actual infinite multiplier in practical terms, I'm saying the gap between both forms is so large that it's utterly impossible for us to give an accurate value, therefore, the current value should be dropped entirely.

I remember it was brought up in an earlier thread about multipliers how SS2's multiplier was also rejected for being too low, so we should stay consistent with that, no?

 

[Nierre]

I'd rather we scrap the multiplier/make it ambiguous, rather than propose a non-finite multiplier.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, we're not giving an infinite multiplier via inference. Worst comes to worst, we keep the low-end or scrap it entirely.

I feel like people forget our tiering isn't axiomatic. So basing it solely on the fact that it made him jump some tiers, and giving the multiplier a value equivalent to a gap that isn't even implied in the main work is asinine.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Yeah, we're not giving an infinite multiplier via inference. Worst comes to worst, we keep the low-end or scrap it entirely.

I feel like people forget our tiering isn't axiomatic. So basing it solely on the fact that it made him jump some tiers, and giving the multiplier a value equivalent to a gap that isn't even implied in the main work is asinine.

Oh sorry for the confusion, but it's a fact, if the gap between both forms is finite, how come the gap between them is indexed as infinite? My proposal is to scrap the low end value entirely because it contradicts lore.

 

[Planck69]

Oh sorry for the confusion, but it's a fact, if the gap between both forms is finite, how come the gap between them is indexed as infinite? My proposal is to scrap the low end value entirely because it contradicts lore.

Because we index the gap between Tier 4 and 2 that way on the site, this does not mean it's how it's indexed in canon. It can't contradict lore because there's no actual acknowledgment of it being infinite in canon.

We don't infer a multiplier if a character becomes 6-A from 7-A from a transformation, this is just a larger version of that situation.

 

[Hasty12345]

what's the reason we're keeping the speed multiplier but dropping the other multipliers?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I kinda agree with Planck on this one. To me it makes no sense why we can't keep the 250k around as a more well founded lowball than axing it entirely and giving it an effectively meaningless 'likely much higher' rating.

If we treat it as an immeasurable jump it would contradict/not make sense just much if not more than a measurable jump.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Because we index the gap between Tier 4 and 2 that way on the site, this does not mean it's how it's indexed in canon. It can't contradict lore because there's no actual acknowledgment of it being infinite in canon.

Are you then, making an assessment that, in canon, there is a finite gap that allows a character to suddenly become capable of exerting powers on an extra-dimensional scale? One of them must be true.

 

[Planck69]

Are you then, making an assessment that, in canon, there is a finite gap that allows a character to suddenly become capable of exerting powers on an extra-dimensional scale? One of them must be true.

I'm making the assessment that these incongruencies are things we simply put up with here in lieu of no better option. Unless you want to argue that Dragon Ball shouldn't leave Tier 3.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'm making the assessment that these incongruencies are things we simply put up with here in lieu of no better option.

You claim these are incongruencies, but how is that accurate when one cannot point out any contradictions to the ambiguity I'm arguing for?
It is incongruent to claim a solar system level character can get to even universe level with a mere 250,000x multiplier, but that is not attributed to the story
Because that would assume that the 250,000x multiplier is a canonical fact, it is not, we don't know how strong SSG is supposed to be in the first place. Yet the 250,000x multiplier contradicts everything, down to the math, to the portrayal and differences in scale when it comes to the feats performed by each character. Yet, you claim keeping the multiplier as it is, would be the better option?
I'm sorry, I disagree. I think the ambiguous nature of SSG's power gap is best for the series.

Unless you want to argue that Dragon Ball shouldn't leave Tier 3.

I do, but that's another discussion.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'm making the assessment that these incongruencies are things we simply put up with here in lieu of no better option. Unless you want to argue that Dragon Ball shouldn't leave Tier 3.

I again plead to the time where supposedly, this same problem was brought up in a smaller scale in the form of SS2's multiplier.
As I heard on my SSB multiplier thread, SS2's 2x multiplier was rejected on the premise that it was "too small to turn a stomp around", a fact not derived from canon, but from our own standards. I think the same should be applied here.
If that's not the case anymore, and whatever judgement used in that past thread does not apply anymore, I will try to get SSJ3's multiplier approved and I'd like to expect for your support.

 

[Livinmeme]

what's the reason we're keeping the speed multiplier but dropping the other multipliers?

Goku goes from Tier 4 to Tier 2
Goku goes from MFTL+ to..MFTL+ (But higher)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Hard disagree with this one.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeah I am leaning towards disagree now

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree FRA

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

SSJG’s multiplier doesn’t necessarily have a set multiplier it’s moreso upscaling. For example, SSJ3 having a x500 multiplier. SSJG’s “multiplier“ is just above the boost of Vegito SSJ3. It’s like when SSJG was just unquantifiable above SSJ-SSJ3 and SSJB was 50x above that so it had a “2500x” multiplier. It’s not really an actual set multiplier it’s just we know it’s atleast that high from accepted multipliers. Hence why we don’t downscale from it.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

SSJG’s multiplier doesn’t necessarily have a set multiplier it’s moreso upscaling. For example, SSJ3 having a x500 multiplier. SSJG’s “multiplier“ is just above the boost of Vegito SSJ3. It’s like when SSJG was just unquantifiable above SSJ-SSJ3 and SSJB was 50x above that so it had a “2500x” multiplier. It’s not really an actual set multiplier it’s just we know it’s atleast that high from accepted multipliers. Hence why we don’t downscale from it.

Well, time to get the SSJ3 multiplier then.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Well, time to get the SSJ3 multiplier then.

The same logic would apply either way. Since it’s not really a set multiplier. It’s moreso us knowing it’s above an already accepted multiplier from statements and showings Vegito Base (x500 unquantifiable amount above SSJ3’s multiplier) < Vegito SSJ3 (x250000) < SSJG (unquantifiable above Vegito SSJ3). It would be like saying SSJB used to have a multiplier of 2500x when it wasn’t really a downscale multiplier. Just a way to upscale based off of accepted multipliers.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The same logic would apply either way. Since it’s not really a set multiplier. It’s moreso us knowing it’s above an already accepted multiplier from statements and showings Vegito Base (x500 unquantifiable amount above SSJ3’s multiplier) < Vegito SSJ3 (x250000) < SSJG (unquantifiable above Vegito SSJ3). It would be like saying SSJB used to have a multiplier of 2500x when it wasn’t really a downscale multiplier. Just a way to upscale based off of accepted multipliers.

By get, I mean, make an upgrade CRT for it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree with Planck for now. Multipliers can't be inferred like that. The canon work could say SSG is a 1.5x multiplier and that's what we would use. As long as we can infer a somewhat canon multiplier from other transformations like I presume it's done now I agree with it.

 

[DivineAura44]

Was Goku even finite in power prior to the transformation? There seems to be no proof leaning either way. The safest assumption is to leave the multiplier imo.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I share Planck's sentiments tbh

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Was Goku even finite in power prior to the transformation? There seems to be no proof leaning either way. The safest assumption is to leave the multiplier imo.

The problem with the OP was that they proposed a multiplier based on the wiki tiering, when the wiki follows the work. It's quite literally fanfiction based on our tiering and thus not allowed in any measure.

 

[JJSliderman]

If God itself is a finite multiplier, that would make BoG base Goku pre-God also 2-C, no?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If God itself is a finite multiplier, that would make BoG base Goku pre-God also 2-C, no?

No

 

[CloverDragon03]

If God itself is a finite multiplier, that would make BoG base Goku pre-God also 2-C, no?

No

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No

You were late.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm making the assessment that these incongruencies are things we simply put up with here in lieu of no better option. Unless you want to argue that Dragon Ball shouldn't leave Tier 3.

To understand, you are saying that the multipliers don’t make sense but you are keeping them for the sake of keeping them?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

To understand, you are saying that the multipliers don’t make sense but you are keeping them for the sake of keeping them?

The 250,000 comes I believe from statements that the form is stronger than hypothetical vegito I believe. Not sure though. Some DB fan can corrent me.

 

[Planck69]

To understand, you are saying that the multipliers don’t make sense but you are keeping them for the sake of keeping them?

I'm saying that there's incongruencies between how the jump is treated in-universe and how the gap exists on the wiki, which is something that can change at any time.

Like Serlock Holmes says, our tiers are technically fanfiction. We can't look at that and infer a canon multiplier so using the most reasonable low-end (which I believe 2500 is treated as here) is a better option.

The multiplier probably makes sense. It's just not lining up with the tier jump the characters make.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

If God itself is a finite multiplier, that would make BoG base Goku pre-God also 2-C, no?

No, it’s a multiplier above Individual -> Vegito SSJ3, thus the “multiplier” is that big, but it’s a lowball so we can’t downscale from it. Refer to my SSJB example.

Like if we imagine SSJG is treated unquantifably above SSJ which is 50x, that still makes SSJB act like a x2500 multiplier, even though that’s not necessarily a multiplier. Think of it as the same logic.

 

[DivineAura44]

If God itself is a finite multiplier, that would make BoG base Goku pre-God also 2-C, no?

I'm pretty sure it would. We just aren't sure that it's finite. We have no reason to believe that and this thread is literally arguing the opposite.

From my knowledge there are 3 possibilities.

Goku (finite power in base) x SSG (infinite multiplier)
Goku (infinite power in base) x SSG (finite multiplier)
Goku (infinite power in base) x SSG (infinite multiplier)

The third is a highball so we can ignore it considering it has no backing.
Of the first 2, there's no way to know which one is infinite and which is finite. So what's the safest thing we can do? Index Goku at finite power and index the multiplier as finite.

Anything else would just be an unbacked assumption.

 

[JJSliderman]

But if both are finite, then God would not be able to boost Goku to “infinite” status.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm saying that there's incongruencies between how the jump is treated in-universe and how the gap exists on the wiki, which is something that can change at any time.

Like Serlock Holmes says, our tiers are technically fanfiction. We can't look at that and infer a canon multiplier so using the most reasonable low-end (which I believe 2500 is treated as here) is a better option.

The multiplier probably makes sense. It's just not lining up with the tier jump the characters make.

And what I am saying is the canon doesn’t give an official multiplier but the site is attaching one anyway because other forms had official multipliers. That would make the multiplier number fan fiction as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

But if both are finite, then God would not be able to boost Goku to “infinite” status.

Our tiers are glorified fanfiction. You can’t say “oh it should be an infinite multiplier” from the fact that Goku jumps to Tier 2 when this could change at any time. It used to make Goku 3-A. That would make it not an infinite multiplier

 

[CloverDragon03]

And what I am saying is the canon doesn’t give an official multiplier but the site is attaching one anyway because other forms had official multipliers. That would make the multiplier number fan fiction as well.

It’s extrapolated from Goku stating that even fusing into Vegito wouldn’t be enough to match up to Beerus judging from what he experienced alone. It’s less of an actual multiplier itself and more like upscaling from existing multipliers