DBS Manga: Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Disagree with op fra.

disagree with the OP for this reason

You disagree with what? This isn't a thread to remove the movie as canon, you have to vote on either the 10x multiplier or the 50x multiplier

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I don't understand the arguments for the manga SSB form being 10×.

Can someone re-explain them? Thanks.

 

[RedReaper616]

Ahem.

Goku's God Form is stronger than less than 10% of Vegeta's Blue form. It's pointed out Vegeta couldn't delay Hit's timeskip like Goku because he couldn't unleash 10% of his power, thus it's considered that 10% would be roughly comparable.

No. They said Vegeta couldn’t manifest even 10%, not that he needed at least 10% to break the Time Skip. Second, SSG Goku being > Less than 10% SSB makes the multiplier argument worse. Like stated before, the actual number physically could not be 10x based on this. It’d be a much lower number.

Whis actually says "original power", so no, it's his max.

In the panel I’ve seen (and linked) he says “Usual Strength.” That’s not to say I don’t believe you, but I’m unsure of this.

Outlier with what exactly? When has SSB been portrayed as fifty times stronger than God? I can prove them being similar fairly easily.

Outlier is the wrong term. Incongruent with the events in screen, such as how SSJ2’s actual canon multiplier was rejected because the gap between Gohan and P.Cell was seen as vastly greater than the 2x number. In this instance, a less than 10x multiplier doesn’t fit. Especially during the madness of Black Arc’s scaling.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

No. They said Vegeta couldn’t manifest even 10%, not that he needed at least 10% to break the Time Skip. Second, SSG Goku being > Less than 10% SSB makes the multiplier argument worse. Like stated before, the actual number physically could not be 10x based on this. It’d be a much lower number.

Oh no,
Beerus questioned why Goku was able to shorten Hit's timeskip, and why Vegeta couldn't.
Whis responded Vegeta couldn't unleash even 10% of his power, implying that, at 10%, Vegeta would've accomplished the same feat.

Less than 10% would imply a multiplier higher than 10x
Stronger than less than 10% would imply a lower multiplier than originally thought. And SSG isn't necessarily stronger than a 10% Vegeta, so saying they're roughly comparable for achieving the same feat of shortening Hit's TS is fair.

In the panel I’ve seen (and linked) he says “Usual Strength.” That’s not to say I don’t believe you, but I’m unsure of this.

I've got the raws, I can link them with a translation if you want.

Outlier is the wrong term. Incongruent with the events in screen, such as how SSJ2’s actual canon multiplier was rejected because the gap between Gohan and P.Cell was seen as vastly greater than the 2x number. In this instance, a less than 10x multiplier doesn’t fit. Especially during the madness of Black Arc’s scaling.

God form Vegeta was dodging Rose Black's attacks despite only being able to beat him in his Blue form, so I don't see the point, really

Rejecting a multiplier as a low end because it's "too low" is the most ridiculous thing ever, if we have no alternative, it works as a decent enough of a low end, rather than having nothing at all, which is not more or less accurate. In the case of SS2 Gohan, there is an alternative, so I understand.

 

[Sparkive]

I agree with the 10x multiplier

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Fun Fact: The official timeline doesn't include the events of the movie (Ressurection F) as part of the "canonical sequel" of the manga.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

So, anyone else would like to vote?

 

[ChronoULT]

My vote is for the 50x multiplier. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

Manga Portrayal

First of all, the premise of SSB's multiplier being 50 times over Super Saiyan God comes from the transformation being a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God. Of course, this is present in the manga too

https://x.com/Cipher_db/status/1263776910934290432?s=20

As Null pointed out, the movie's Anime Comic is given as a chronological sequence for the events of the manga, and it's the same as the movie. But that's not the only proof we have for it to be canon, as the movie prequel draw by Toyotaro is directly referenced in the DBS manga using the same panels from the prequel. We also have flashbacks from Freeza being defeated in the same way as the movie.



Goku & Vegeta's power

Now, talking about the scalling, SSG Goku is stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta and they were shown to be relative in power previously. The thing is, Goku and Vegeta are fundamentally different when it comes to combat capability. As Whis points out, Vegeta is always stressing himself, which makes hard for him to bring out his full potential during a battle



And this is shown with their sparring in chapter 5. Vegeta loses his cool and Goku briefly dominates him before Vegeta transforms into Blue. The same happens against Hit.



This is later referenced in the Moro arc, where Pybara states that Vegeta's body and spirit were off balance, and therefore his output wasnt what he could actually do.



Meanwhile, Goku had Yardrat training for decades and he doesn't lose his cool during a battle, which means even though Goku and Vegeta can have the same power, at this arc, Goku can still look more powerful than Vegeta by a significant margin and it's still consistent with what the story shows us. So Goku being stronger than Vegeta during the fight is plausible.

Tournament of Power Scalling

Later in the Tournament of Power arc, Freeza fights the universe 6 Saiyans. Freeza is roughly comparable to SSJ Caulifla, as he can fight with her and even take a ki attack at close range before he transforms into Golden Freeza. Base Kale is stronger than SSJ Caulifla. Super Saiyan Kale can dominate a suppressed Golden Freeza.

Goku briefly intervenes with Super Saiyan Blue and dominates Kale before she powers up even more, and Freeza says that he doesn't needs Goku's help because he was not taking her seriously, and we know this is true because Goku and Freeza are shown to be comparable, although Goku is implied to have won in their non-peaceful negotiation.



Base Kale is stronger than Base Freeza, but Golden Freeza is superior to SSJ Kale. This makes Golden a higher multiplier than 50x and possibly even higher since Kale's SSJ is different, and this is relevant to Blue because Goku was superior to Base Freeza too. Yet Golden Freeza is not massively stronger than SSB Goku.

Edit: I also have a doubt about the 10x SSB multiplier. If It was really just 10x, what would be stopping Goku from using Kaioken with his god ki- Imbued base form, since 10x it's something his body can easily endure, or even use Kaioken 20x from time to time?

Fun Fact: The official timeline doesn't include the events of the movie (Ressurection F) as part of the "canonical sequel" of the manga.

This doesn't include Galactic Patrolman Jaco too, right?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Found the complete scan, by the way.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Stronger than before after 3 years of training, 10% of Super Saiyan Blue alone is roughly comparable to the full power of the Super Saiyan God transformation

The scan is dead.

 

[AguilaR202]

The problem is that it

My vote is for the 50x multiplier. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

Manga Portrayal

First of all, the premise of SSB's multiplier being 50 times over Super Saiyan God comes from the transformation being a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God. Of course, this is present in the manga too

https://x.com/Cipher_db/status/1263776910934290432?s=20

As Null pointed out, the movie's Anime Comic is given as a chronological sequence for the events of the manga, and it's the same as the movie. But that's not the only proof we have for it to be canon, as the movie prequel draw by Toyotaro is directly referenced in the DBS manga using the same panels from the prequel. We also have flashbacks from Freeza being defeated in the same way as the movie.



Goku & Vegeta's power

Now, talking about the scalling, SSG Goku is stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta and they were shown to be relative in power previously. The thing is, Goku and Vegeta are fundamentally different when it comes to combat capability. As Whis points out, Vegeta is always stressing himself, which makes hard for him to bring out his full potential during a battle



And this is shown with their sparring in chapter 5. Vegeta loses his cool and Goku briefly dominates him before Vegeta transforms into Blue. The same happens against Hit.



This is later referenced in the Moro arc, where Pybara states that Vegeta's body and spirit were off balance, and therefore his output wasnt what he could actually do.



Meanwhile, Goku had Yardrat training for decades and he doesn't lose his cool during a battle, which means even though Goku and Vegeta can have the same power, at this arc, Goku can still look more powerful than Vegeta by a significant margin and it's still consistent with what the story shows us. So Goku being stronger than Vegeta during the fight is plausible.

Tournament of Power Scalling

Later in the Tournament of Power arc, Freeza fights the universe 6 Saiyans. Freeza is roughly comparable to SSJ Caulifla, as he can fight with her and even take a ki attack at close range before he transforms into Golden Freeza. Base Kale is stronger than SSJ Caulifla. Super Saiyan Kale can dominate a suppressed Golden Freeza.

Goku briefly intervenes with Super Saiyan Blue and dominates Kale before she powers up even more, and Freeza says that he doesn't needs Goku's help because he was not taking her seriously, and we know this is true because Goku and Freeza are shown to be comparable, although Goku is implied to have won in their non-peaceful negotiation.



Base Kale is stronger than Base Freeza, but Golden Freeza is superior to SSJ Kale. This makes Golden a higher multiplier than 50x and possibly even higher since Kale's SSJ is different, and this is relevant to Blue because Goku was superior to Base Freeza too. Yet Golden Freeza is not massively stronger than SSB Goku.

Edit: I also have a doubt about the 10x SSB multiplier. If It was really just 10x, what would be stopping Goku from using Kaioken with his god ki- Imbued base form, since 10x it's something his body can easily endure, or even use Kaioken 20x from time to time?


This doesn't include Galactic Patrolman Jaco too, right?

Freeza Golden form being just a 50x boost has to be BS because he fought at a disavantage against Base Goku so something in the realm of SS2 would have been enough.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Snip.

Bullet points.

• As I said before: A Super Saiyan variant of Super Saiyan God, can be interpreted as "Super Saiyan with God Ki". While this is a valid response, by itself, it might not be enough.
• As I pointed out, the official timeline doesn't include the Z Movies as part of it, despite considering the Broly movie as canon, I think this is a stronger evidence that a promotional material on a magazine.
• Your argument about Vegeta's flaws in battle are not relevant to the debate, because it's not about the performance. We have a direct statement that explains Vegeta's raw power was not even 10% of his original Blue power, this is attributed to his stamina alone, thus, you have to argue Goku was stronger than Vegeta by about five times, which is absurd given what we see before Hit, to claim this 10x multiplier is consistent with the 50x multiplier assumption.
• The tourney of power argument is... non-sense? First off, Frieza is around Base Goku's power level. Saying Golden Frieza is a mere 50x multiplier doesn't help your case, as this would imply SSB is 50x stronger than Base Form Goku, or as strong as SSJ.

I respectfully disagree. I will add your vote, however.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

As I pointed out, the official timeline doesn't include the Z Movies as part of it, despite considering the Broly movie as canon, I think this is a stronger evidence that a promotional material on a magazine.

Don't forget Jaco the Galactic Patrolman (or Jiya and Sachie-chan Guu!!), the canonical prequel to the original series.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The scan is dead.

We'll fix that when this whole sequence of CRTs get solved.

Don't forget Jaco the Galactic Patrolman (or Jiya and Sachie-chan Guu!!), the canonical prequel to the original series.

This is a Dragon Ball timeline, Jaco might share the same universe, but it's "technically" not a Dragon Ball. The movie has no reason to not be included in the timeline if it was truly intended to be canon.

 

[AwkguyDB]

add me to 50x fra

 

[ChronoULT]

Bullet points.

• As I said before: A Super Saiyan variant of Super Saiyan God, can be interpreted as "Super Saiyan with God Ki". While this is a valid response, by itself, it might not be enough.

The thing is, base Goku with God Ki is visually shown and stated as being equal to God, and by being his base form, Goku shouldn't have any problems on using Kaioken, which his body can handle better than SSB and would be twice as strong with Kaioken 20x

• As I pointed out, the official timeline doesn't include the Z Movies as part of it, despite considering the Broly movie as canon, I think this is a stronger evidence that a promotional material on a magazine.

Curiously enough, the timeline doesn't include anything canon that doesn't have the specific Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Super trademark, even canon content such as Galactic Patrolman Jaco or even the Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! manga which should have enough involvement from Toriyama to be canon

• Your argument about Vegeta's flaws in battle are not relevant to the debate, because it's not about the performance. We have a direct statement that explains Vegeta's raw power was not even 10% of his original Blue power, this is attributed to his stamina alone, thus, you have to argue Goku was stronger than Vegeta by about five times, which is absurd given what we see before Hit, to claim this 10x multiplier is consistent with the 50x multiplier assumption.

Fair. Although i don't have plans on arguing about it since i don't want to extend myself here, Goku getting stronger while he adapts is also possible simply because of his Saiyan Nature.

• The tourney of power argument is... non-sense? First off, Frieza is around Base Goku's power level. Saying Golden Frieza is a mere 50x multiplier doesn't help your case, as this would imply SSB is 50x stronger than Base Form Goku, or as strong as SSJ.

I was talking about God ki-imbued base form Goku, the one who fought Freeza in the prequel.

I respectfully disagree. I will add your vote, however.

Thank you.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The thing is, base Goku with God Ki is visually shown and stated as being equal to God, and by being his base form, Goku shouldn't have any problems on using Kaioken, which his body can handle better than SSB and would be twice as strong with Kaioken 20x


Curiously enough, the timeline doesn't include anything canon that doesn't have the specific Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Super trademark, even canon content such as Galactic Patrolman Jaco or even the Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! manga which should have enough involvement from Toriyama to be canon


Fair. Although i don't have plans on arguing about it since i don't want to extend myself here, Goku getting stronger while he adapts is also possible simply because of his Saiyan Nature.


I was talking about God ki-imbued base form Goku, the one who fought Freeza in the prequel.

• This is only relevant to scaling, SSG Goku >>>>>>>>> Base Goku = SSG Goku (BoG Arc) >>>>>>>>> Base Goku (BoG Arc), it has no influence over a multiplier over the form itself.
• Yes, the Z Movies have no reason not to be included, as they have the DB/DBS trademark.
• At this rate? Unlikely. Usually this kind of improvement comes with a statement from someone or narrative implications. Agree to disagree here.
• I mean, Goku can still stack SSG's multiplier over it, and SSB multiplies over THAT, not Goku's base form, so Frieza's scaling is really not relevant here.

 

[AguilaR202]

People just rolled with the idea of SSG being a multiplier for no reason whatsoever, it’s only inferred through scaling rather than legitimate statements saying it is x amount of times stronger than other forms.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This is a Dragon Ball timeline, Jaco might share the same universe, but it's "technically" not a Dragon Ball.

That is literally headcanon.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That is literally headcanon.

Fellas, is it headcanon to say Jaco the Patrolman is a canon spin-off, not a Dragon Ball mainline story?

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

It can be used in two different ways for Anime and Manga versions. 50x for Anime Goku and 10x for Manga Goku can be preferred. In general terms, Goku, which we describe as SSJB, creates God Ki by fusing it with his own Super Saiyajin form. So God transfers another 50 times power to his Ki

 

[Damage3245]

I'll look into this soon.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

My vote is for the 50x multiplier. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

Manga Portrayal

First of all, the premise of SSB's multiplier being 50 times over Super Saiyan God comes from the transformation being a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God. Of course, this is present in the manga too

https://x.com/Cipher_db/status/1263776910934290432?s=20

As Null pointed out, the movie's Anime Comic is given as a chronological sequence for the events of the manga, and it's the same as the movie. But that's not the only proof we have for it to be canon, as the movie prequel draw by Toyotaro is directly referenced in the DBS manga using the same panels from the prequel. We also have flashbacks from Freeza being defeated in the same way as the movie.



Goku & Vegeta's power

Now, talking about the scalling, SSG Goku is stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta and they were shown to be relative in power previously. The thing is, Goku and Vegeta are fundamentally different when it comes to combat capability. As Whis points out, Vegeta is always stressing himself, which makes hard for him to bring out his full potential during a battle



And this is shown with their sparring in chapter 5. Vegeta loses his cool and Goku briefly dominates him before Vegeta transforms into Blue. The same happens against Hit.



This is later referenced in the Moro arc, where Pybara states that Vegeta's body and spirit were off balance, and therefore his output wasnt what he could actually do.



Meanwhile, Goku had Yardrat training for decades and he doesn't lose his cool during a battle, which means even though Goku and Vegeta can have the same power, at this arc, Goku can still look more powerful than Vegeta by a significant margin and it's still consistent with what the story shows us. So Goku being stronger than Vegeta during the fight is plausible.

Tournament of Power Scalling

Later in the Tournament of Power arc, Freeza fights the universe 6 Saiyans. Freeza is roughly comparable to SSJ Caulifla, as he can fight with her and even take a ki attack at close range before he transforms into Golden Freeza. Base Kale is stronger than SSJ Caulifla. Super Saiyan Kale can dominate a suppressed Golden Freeza.

Goku briefly intervenes with Super Saiyan Blue and dominates Kale before she powers up even more, and Freeza says that he doesn't needs Goku's help because he was not taking her seriously, and we know this is true because Goku and Freeza are shown to be comparable, although Goku is implied to have won in their non-peaceful negotiation.



Base Kale is stronger than Base Freeza, but Golden Freeza is superior to SSJ Kale. This makes Golden a higher multiplier than 50x and possibly even higher since Kale's SSJ is different, and this is relevant to Blue because Goku was superior to Base Freeza too. Yet Golden Freeza is not massively stronger than SSB Goku.

Edit: I also have a doubt about the 10x SSB multiplier. If It was really just 10x, what would be stopping Goku from using Kaioken with his god ki- Imbued base form, since 10x it's something his body can easily endure, or even use Kaioken 20x from time to time?


This doesn't include Galactic Patrolman Jaco too, right?

I agree with this!

 

[Bastolan27]

Agree with the post above me.

 

[ChronoULT]

• This is only relevant to scaling, SSG Goku >>>>>>>>> Base Goku = SSG Goku (BoG Arc) >>>>>>>>> Base Goku (BoG Arc), it has no influence over a multiplier over the form itself.

My bad then, i didnt know that scan was used for scalling, which i don't disagree

• Yes, the Z Movies have no reason not to be included, as they have the DB/DBS trademark.

Yeah... but even though RoF is canon to Super, it's still from Dragon Ball Z, so placing it in the middle of the Super timeline goes against the point of indexing the content from the Dragon Ball Manga and Dragon Ball Super manga

• I mean, Goku can still stack SSG's multiplier over it, and SSB multiplies over THAT, not Goku's base form, so Frieza's scaling is really not relevant here.

God ki and Super Saiyan God are the same. That's how Vegeta got the transformation alone without the ritual, he just gained god ki. And Toppo getting stronger just by activating his god ki supports this even more.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

God ki and Super Saiyan God are the same.

Great. Your Frieza scaling still doesn't make any sense, as Frieza scales to Base Goku.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Yeah... but even though RoF is canon to Super, it's still from Dragon Ball Z, so placing it in the middle of the Super timeline goes against the point of indexing the content from the Dragon Ball Manga and Dragon Ball Super manga

They literally indexed DBS Broly as part of the canon. They do index movies as part of the canon if they are canon. And they are indexing Z as well.

 

[ChronoULT]

Great. Your Frieza scaling still doesn't make any sense, as Frieza scales to Base Goku.

Base Goku with God Ki.

 

[ChronoULT]

They literally indexed DBS Broly as part of the canon. They do index movies as part of the canon if they are canon. And they are indexing Z as well.

They are indexing the Z era, but it's all considered as just "Dragon Ball" just like the Kanzenban release, instead of the original volumes which differentiates between "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon Ball Z". RoF is a canon movie too, but it's not Super, it's Z

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

They are indexing the Z era, but it's all considered as just "Dragon Ball" just like the Kanzenban release, instead of the original volumes which differentiates between "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon Ball Z". RoF is a canon movie too, but it's not Super, it's Z

What kind of mental gymnastics is this? Z is Dragon Ball's trademark.

Movies are not excluded. They're not indexed as a manga canon, therefore it's not canon to the manga. Saying they're not including it because of a letter is ridiculous.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Base Goku with God Ki.

Which is NOT SSG, as I said it only implies scaling. Saying Goku is using his God form even though he is NOT, is something we don't accept. You're free to bring that ELSEWHERE.

 

[SlendVeny]

50x FRA

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with 50x after reading Chrono's post.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I still prefer 10x. I feel like all this argumentation like Chrono's post doesn't exactly hold up compared to... a very direct statement of SSG being equivalent to 10% of SSB

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Why would you tell someone to read something and not be transparent about how much it costs to read said thing?

時系列順に紹介していくぞ！ = "We'll introduce [the stories] in chronological order!"
「破壊神ビルス編」直後のストーリーは、アニメコミックスDRAGON BALL Z復活の「F」を読もう!! = "For the story immediately following the "God of Destruction Beerus Arc," read the anime comic DRAGON BALL Z: Resurrection "F"!"
「宇宙サバイバル編」直後のお話、アニメコミックスDRAGON BALL超ブロリーもチェック!! = "For the story immediately following the "Universe Survival Arc," read the anime comic DRAGON BALL Super: Broly!"

Fun Fact: This translation is VERY sus.

It's worded far more like advertisement than an actual stance on the canon.

"「破壊神ビルス編」直後のストーリーは、アニメコミックス「DRAGON BALL Z 復活の「F」を読もう!!JC 「DRAGON BALL Z 復活の「F」 ●定価:本体1,350円+税 好評発売中!!"
"After the 'Battle of Gods' arc, let's read the story immediately following in the anime comics 'DRAGON BALL Z: Resurrection 'F'!! JC 'DRAGON BALL Z: Resurrection 'F' ● List Price: 1,350 yen + tax Now on sale!!"

It doesn't say you have to read the anime comics, it invites you to do it. It's an ad.
The phrase "読もう!!" ("yomou!!") in the sentence is an expression that can be interpreted as an invitation or suggestion. In this context, it's akin to saying "let's read!!" or "read now!!" The use of exclamation marks emphasizes the enthusiasm or encouragement, typical of an advertisement trying to engage the audience to take action.

"まで発売中のJC 『ドラゴンボール超』。あらすじを、時系列順に紹介していくぞ!" can be translated as:

"Currently on sale JC's 'Dragon Ball Super.' I will introduce the summaries in chronological order!"

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I still prefer 10x. I feel like all this argumentation like Chrono's post doesn't exactly hold up compared to... a very direct statement of SSG being equivalent to 10% of SSB

Most of the argumentation has been effectively dismantled by me, so even less so.

I agree with 50x after reading Chrono's post.

May I ask what part is particularly convincing in your opinion?

There are objective mistakes in his narrative, such as Frieza scaling to Base Goku and having Golden Frieza being at least 50x that, which is irrelevant to Blue. Or how Vegeta's mind being off balance not being a factor since the statement compares raw power. Chrono even conceded on the latter.

This leaves only the manga portrayal and the movie being canon to the comics, is that what convinced you?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Gonna agree with 50x

 

[RedReaper616]

Two things I have left to say.

Oh no,
Beerus questioned why Goku was able to shorten Hit's timeskip, and why Vegeta couldn't.
Whis responded Vegeta couldn't unleash even 10% of his power, implying that, at 10%, Vegeta would've accomplished the same feat.

In the panels, it’s straight up not worded that way. It’s not at all implied Vegeta needed to be at LEAST as his 10% mark to overpower Time Skip. To quote verbatim:

Beerus: “But Vegeta couldn’t even do that in SSB.”

Whis: “He wasn’t able to perform at EVEN 10% of Super Saiyan Blue’s usual strength. That form is something you can only use a few times a single day since it consumes too much energy.” (Does not establish 10% as necessary whatsoever.)

Beerus: “So you’re saying that Goku’s God Form surpasses that Vegeta’s earlier Blue Form, just as it’s,” (STILL SSG BEING TALKED ABOUT) “…surpassed Hit now?”

Whis: “Yes, possibly.”

At no point is it actually ever established that Vegeta’s 10% SSB could have did the job. While yes, it is in reference to Time Skip, Vegeta was not once ever given a power benchmark to reach that would surpass Time Skip like Goku did.

Less than 10% would imply a multiplier higher than 10x
Stronger than less than 10% would imply a lower multiplier than originally thought. And SSG isn't necessarily stronger than a 10% Vegeta, so saying they're roughly comparable for achieving the same feat of shortening Hit's TS is fair.

Yes, that’s what I was saying. It would not be 10x because he was stronger than Less than 10%. (Which is literally any number of SSB’s power that ISN’T 10%. Such as 1%, or 5%, or .003%, or .0000001%, or 9.999999999%). Not comparable to 10%. The multiplier simply cannot be 10x. It would be LESS than 10x. And to reiterate, SSG explicitly was above a NOT 10% Vegeta.

Rejecting a multiplier as a low end because it's "too low" is the most ridiculous thing ever, if we have no alternative, it works as a decent enough of a low end, rather than having nothing at all, which is not more or less accurate. In the case of SS2 Gohan, there is an alternative, so I understand.

Personally I think it’s dumb to reject it solely on Gohan’s performance against Cell when you can just handwave it away as SSJ2 + Bottomless Rage plot power since SSJ2 isn’t treated as such an absurd gap ANYWHERE else. Not to mention even minor gaps in earlier Sagas created the same stomp worthy disadvantages (Like Goku V Tao Pai Pai, for example, or a basic advantage of like 2,000 over another character {Vegeta Vs Dodoria}, or a combination of both {Zarbon Vs Vegeta, where True Zarbon was only mildly stronger than Vegeta PL wise and was dominating, and said multiplier he did to get was literally only 3x} and no one bats an eye there). But them be’s the rules, I guess? Point remains, though.

This is a Dragon Ball timeline, Jaco might share the same universe, but it's "technically" not a Dragon Ball. The movie has no reason to not be included in the timeline if it was truly intended to be canon.

Ignoring the fact they LITERALLY reference RoF in the ToP section and assuming it IS solely about copyright naming, and thus would exclude Jaco, (which as Nullflower stated is Headcanon, as we do not know why it was not included), that would still mean that the prequel story Dragon Ball Minus, which is under the pen name Dragon Ball, SHOULD and yet it doesn’t exist there. Mind you, this was done partially for promotion of the Broly movie (Last image of the Tokyo Skytree/North America Tour Timeline), and thus to promote the film’s story motifs/information/the variation of the story they were telling likely SHOULD have included Dragon Ball Minus. And yet they didn’t. So this logic simply doesn’t track.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

literally only 3x

Uh, actually even less because Zarbon being 3x is a contradiction with the power levels of Saiyan Saga. It's not a rule, it's just a terrible staff decision, and based on all these reasons, an attempt will be made to get at least SS3's multiplier back up.

In the panels, it’s straight up not worded that way.

Think about it, it's a matter of interpretation.
The reason why Super Saiyan God is even acknowledged as stronger than SSB Vegeta is because he was at less than 10%. That is the justification as to why he was weaker after all. "Why is Goku showing a better performance in Power than SSB Vegeta? Because Vegeta wasn't even at 10%", this is a direct implication that this superiority would not be as relevant or significant had Vegeta been at 1/10th of his power. If they're roughly comparable, Vegeta would be capable of doing just as well as Goku did against Hit.
In fact, this is even implied by Goku himself after he forfeits the match.

Yes, that’s what I was saying. It would not be 10x because he was stronger than Less than 10%. (Which is literally any number of SSB’s power that ISN’T 10%. Such as 1%, or 5%, or .003%, or .0000001%, or 9.999999999%).

I'll assume you're not too familiar with math, because you're straight up incorrect in that.

If Vegeta was below 10%, that means the multiplication necessary for his maximum output would be "greater than 10x". GREATER.

This means, the less percentage Vegeta was, the higher the multiplier would be. It's not "LESS than 10x" based on logic, it's HIGHER than 10x. But then you factor in the fact SSG Goku isn't equal to less than 10% Vegeta, he is stronger than that, so Vegeta's percentage is higher than 10 times the power of his maximum, but Goku is stronger so it's "less than the supposed multiplier, which has to be higher than 10x".
For the multiplier to be less than 10x, you'd have to assume SSG Goku is stronger than 10% Vegeta on the dot, as only when you go over 10%, you'd get a lower multiplier. You can't assume that.

Let's dive into wording again,
he couldn't possibly be below 7%, as the line would not be rounding up to 10%, it would be rounded down to 5%.

To point out my previous comment:

It's not headcanon. That's how statements work. 10 is a round number, so is 5. If they used 10%, then it must be closer to 10% than 5%. If Vegeta was at 2% capacity, stating 10% which would be five times his capacity is nonsensical and pointless. It would be straight up inaccurate.
If the manga is trying to give you data, it's going to use an approximation.

They're not going to use a round number is the actual percentage isn't close to that round number, because literally who does that? The very purpose of a round number is to get an approximation. Otherwise your statement is not giving the reader any relevant or precise information.

Ignoring the fact they LITERALLY reference RoF in the ToP section

I MEAN YEAH???

THE EVENTS STILL HAPPENED IN THE MANGA, NO????? WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE MOVIE VERSION OF THE EVENTS BEING CANON???

Also this links to a kitten being sleepy, not the reference in question.

assuming it IS solely about copyright naming, and thus would exclude Jaco, (which as Nullflower stated is Headcanon, as we do not know why it was not included)

You can cope as much as you want.
It's not headcanon, Jaco is part of another series entirely, which so happens to share the same universe as Dragon Ball.
It's NOT mainline media, thus it's not going to be included in a timeline of the mainline series.
RoF is mainline media, thus if it's not included, it's not canon. Simples as that.

that would still mean that the prequel story Dragon Ball Minus, which is under the pen name Dragon Ball, SHOULD and yet it doesn’t exist there.

DBS Broly already included the events of DB Minus. Why tf would they promote a story that's already told in the movie they're going to show?
DB Minus is NOT it's own manga, it's a bonus story of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, and thus falls under the same category of being a spin-off. Your own link clarifies so.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'll look into this soon.

Hey, Damage?