Steal the crown from under their nose (The Hunter vs Stone Golem)

[WeeklyBattles]

Undeads don't really have insides to rip off.

Neither do half of the enemies the Hunter visceral attacks, he can literally do it to ghosts and skeletons

They also have Type 8 to the plane of negative energy.

Awesome, the Hunter can sever type 8 immortality of that nature as well

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Neither do half of the enemies the Hunter visceral attacks, he can literally do it to ghosts and skeletons

Fairly sure that would be resisted either way, but I suppose it's specific enough that I can't answer confidently.

Awesome, the Hunter can sever type 8 immortality of that nature as well

This, however, I can definitely say it's resisted, as said action would be effectively soul hax against the undead. That's how they are reliant to the plane, they are small pieces of it; the negative energies fuel them as analogs to souls.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This, however, I can definitely say it's resisted, as said action would be effectively soul hax against the undead. That's how they are reliant to the plane, they are small pieces of it; the negative energies fuel them as analogs to souls.

The Hunter does have soul hax and the ability to kill souls yes, incuding disembodies spirits that exist on alternate planes of reality

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The Hunter does have soul hax and the ability to kill souls yes

Resisted with multiple layers.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Resisted with multiple layers.

They resist their souls being physically attacked and damaged? How many layers exactly?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

They resist their souls being physically attacked and damaged? How many layers exactly?

Not only resisted, it exists on another plane entirely (Negative Energy Plane)

Normally undead are immune to said attacks overall (because of the nature of souls vs negative energy), but it also has 14 layers to those effects that would target said energy, on top of it's spell resistance, for an added 12* layers of protection

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not only resisted, it exists on another plane entirely (Negative Energy Plane)

Yes, the Hunter can affect beings with that kind of existence

Normally undead are immune to said attacks overall (because of the nature of souls vs negative energy), but it also has 14 layers to those effects that would target said energy, on top of it's spell resistance, for an added 22 layers of protection

Its not a spell tho, its just his normal attacks

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, the Hunter can affect beings with that kind of existence

Doesn't have interdimensional range attacks on this key?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, necrotic/radiant damaging spells are pretty much exactly that. Pretty much anything with a page will have resistance (though a great deal of creatures in D&D, such as commoners, do not). Lephyr is also correct in that undead in D&D outright cannot be affected, regardless of their resistance, due to the special nature of their souls (i.e. being converted to negative energy and residing in a different plane)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, I gotta ask, are we talking about blood echoes for souls or is there something I'm missing?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, necrotic/radiant damaging spells are pretty much exactly that. Pretty much anything with a page will have resistance (though a great deal of creatures in D&D, such as commoners, do not). Lephyr is also correct in that undead in D&D outright cannot be affected, regardless of their resistance, due to the special nature of their souls (i.e. being converted to negative energy and residing in a different plane)

We also have a debate on the Gaze attack of the Vitreous Drinker. The Gaze attacks overall in the SRD mentions it affects multiple targets as long as they look at the gaze.

However, the monsters statblock states they just need to be within range of the gaze. Which would apply there?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh yeah, and about the Deflection bonus to AC.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, I gotta ask, are we talking about blood echoes for souls or is there something I'm missing?

The ghosts in Cainhurst and the Chalice Dungeons as well as Kos' soul that you kill at the end of the DLC

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Oh yeah

Since its undead The Drinker would be kinda screwed by the Hunter's holy weapons would it?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh yeah

Since its undead The Drinker would be kinda screwed by the Hunter's holy weapons would it?

Not exactly. The reason holy stuff works in dnd is because they specifically counter the negative energies of the undead. Without interdimensional range, it shouldn't affect it imo.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We also have a debate on the Gaze attack of the Vitreous Drinker. The Gaze attacks overall in the SRD mentions it affects multiple targets as long as they look at the gaze.

However, the monsters statblock states they just need to be within range of the gaze. Which would apply there?

If both can apply, apply both. Otherwise, the monster's specific statblock would take priority. For example, the Beholder's eyestalks function regardless of whether you look at it or not, despite being a "gaze attack".

Oh yeah, and about the Deflection bonus to AC.

For Drinker specifically I believe it's less a physical thing and more akin to a forcefield. Not exactly a visible one, but iirc it is dependent upon Charisma?

The ghosts in Cainhurst and the Chalice Dungeons as well as Kos' soul that you kill at the end of the DLC

Man that's pretty weak. Non-physical interaction is not necessarily soul-destroying shit, Weekly. We have no idea what becomes of those guys after we take 'em out, even less with Kos given it's a dream (an abstraction of the already fucky reality we're inhabiting in-game).

Since its undead The Drinker would be kinda screwed by the Hunter's holy weapons would it?

Not really? Undead in D&D can have such weaknesses but most stronger ones just... don't. The exception is a good amount of more powerful undead have strengths that can typically only be overcome by holy stuff (e.g., radiant damage often negates regenerative properties).

I have knowledge on both verses, I don't think the Hunter has any great way of dealing with the Drinker besides just beating it to death (which it very well might before the Drinker successfully kills it). Finger of Death has been pretty largely misinterpreted in this thread, it cannot be dodged, nor is it only viable on targets that have been weakened- if you lack the proper resistance, Finger of Death is an instant kill.

All in all, I do consider the Vitreous Drinker the more likely victor in such a fight, but that more or less entirely hinges on its use of Finger of Death.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

For Drinker specifically I believe it's less a physical thing and more akin to a forcefield. Not exactly a visible one, but iirc it is dependent upon Charisma?

How good is it considered though? Because the Hunter can get through forcefields going by the fight with Logarius

Man that's pretty weak. Non-physical interaction is not necessarily soul-destroying shit, Weekly. We have no idea what becomes of those guys after we take 'em out, even less with Kos given it's a dream (an abstraction of the already fucky reality we're inhabiting in-game).

Meh, fair

I have knowledge on both verses, I don't think the Hunter has any great way of dealing with the Drinker besides just beating it to death (which it very well might before the Drinker successfully kills it). Finger of Death has been pretty largely misinterpreted in this thread, it cannot be dodged, nor is it only viable on targets that have been weakened- if you lack the proper resistance, Finger of Death is an instant kill.

All in all, I do consider the Vitreous Drinker the more likely victor in such a fight, but that more or less entirely hinges on its use of Finger of Death.

I mean, Finger of Death wouldnt permakill the Hunter, they would just resurrect and know to kill the Drinker before it can use Finger of Death again

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

For Drinker specifically I believe it's less a physical thing and more akin to a forcefield. Not exactly a visible one, but iirc it is dependent upon Charisma?

Yes, based on charisma.

I have knowledge on both verses, I don't think the Hunter has any great way of dealing with the Drinker besides just beating it to death (which it very well might before the Drinker successfully kills it). Finger of Death has been pretty largely misinterpreted in this thread, it cannot be dodged, nor is it only viable on targets that have been weakened- if you lack the proper resistance, Finger of Death is an instant kill.

In my defense, I was going with the assumption it was resisted, that's why I brought up the fact the Drinker can just nerf the Hunter anyways.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To my knowledge the Hunter has no noteworthy resistance to Death or Soul manipulation, just good resurrection. That resurrection, also, has never shown the ability to repair soul shit such as Finger of Death. I believe it to be a perfectly valid wincon.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, Finger of Death wouldnt permakill the Hunter, they would just resurrect and know to kill the Drinker before it can use Finger of Death again

The thing is, this doesn't matter. Adventurers at these levels are expected to spam prep, clairvoyance and all manner of spells to gain knowledge on their targets. The Vitreous Drinker can still provide a challenge and even win.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

To my knowledge the Hunter has no noteworthy resistance to Death or Soul manipulation, just good resurrection. That resurrection, also, has never shown the ability to repair soul shit such as Finger of Death. I believe it to be a perfectly valid wincon.

Being able to shift back and forth between a human and a Keeper of the Old Lords with no issue would be soul resistance yeah?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Being able to shift back and forth between a human and a Keeper of the Old Lords with no issue would be soul resistance yeah?

They more than likely can reach that via magical attacks and/or bypass it through layers.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They more than likely can reach that via magical attacks and/or bypass it through layers.

I mean, Keepers of the Old Lords straight up have no soul, theres nothing to affect

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, Keepers of the Old Lords straight up have no soul, theres nothing to affect

Finger of Death can affect soulless beings.

What's considered soulless

As creatures with null Int, Oozes don't have souls. They aren't immune to death effects, so Finger of Death affects them regardless.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Mkay, so this would be incon then going by Bambu's points, literally just comes down to a tossup of the Hunter shredding the Drinker vs the Drinker using Finger of Death

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Mkay, so this would be incon then going by Bambu's points, literally just comes down to a tossup of the Hunter shredding the Drinker vs the Drinker using Finger of Death

Which I argue the Drinker has enough skill by virtue of it's challenge rating to be able to survive and use it.

Bambu also agreed the Drinker is the most likely victor.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

CR =/= skill though, CR only measures power

He also said it can go either way, which i agree with

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

CR =/= skill though, CR only measures power

That's incorrect. It measures challenge. It includes power, but also a creature's skills, feats, resistances, special abilities and how hard they are to be dealt with by an adventuring group of at least 4 from that level.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's incorrect. It measures challenge. It includes power, but also a creature's skills, feats, resistances, special abilities and how hard they are to be dealt with by an adventuring group of at least 4 from that level.

Scan

Can get more from all editions as well, if need be.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That's incorrect. It measures challenge. It includes power, but also a creature's skills, feats, resistances, special abilities and how hard they are to be dealt with by an adventuring group of at least 4 from that level.

I mean thats great and all but the Drinker doesnt have anything in its arsenal that suggests a high degree of skill in direct combat, its more built around spying and intelligence gathering, its intelligent in the conventional sense, not necessarily the combat sense. Hell the only weapon specialization is has is with its tongue lol

You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Drinker is more skilled than the Hunter in a direct contest of combat skill

Unless you want to argue that the Tarrasqueis secretly a supergenius

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean thats great and all but the Drinker doesnt have anything in its arsenal that suggests a high degree of skill in direct combat, its more built around spying and intelligence gathering, its intelligent in the conventional sense, not necessarily the combat sense. Hell the only weapon specialization is has is with its tongue lol

Also incorrect. As per a CR 11 creature, it can reasonably challenge people with high degree of martial arts like Monks, Fighters and Paladins. It is able to fight through Danmaku from a Sorcerer, it is able to give a run for its money to reasonably prepared Wizards. It can fight range spam from Rangers.

All manner of abilities, specialities and combination of feats and abilities, it can challenge and win.

At these levels, a Wizard is expected to know defensive spells to counter all manner of demons, undead, fey, aberration, etc etc etc. They are expected to be fighting creatures that are quite capable of spamming stealth since even level 1. Clerics are expected to commune with their deities to gain precog and knowledge: hell, they are expected to know the lore and abilities of a Vitreous Drinker outright.

The monster can still beat them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also incorrect. As per a CR 11 creature, it can reasonably challenge people with high degree of martial arts like Monks, Fighters and Paladins. It is able to fight through Danmaku from a Sorcerer, it is able to give a run for its money to reasonably prepared Wizards. It can fight range spam from Rangers.

All manner of abilities, specialities and combination of feats and abilities, it can challenge and win.

At these levels, a Wizard is expected to know defensive spells to counter all manner of demons, undead, fey, aberration, etc etc etc. They are expected to be fighting creatures that are quite capable of spamming stealth since even level 1. Clerics are expected to commune with their deities to gain precog and knowledge: hell, they are expected to know the lore and abilities of a Vitreous Drinker outright.

The monster can still beat them.

Again, unless you want to argue that the Tarrasque is secretly an absurdly intelligent supergenius, its not a 1-1 scale

Their lore and abilities need to be taken into account when judging this

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Again, unless you want to argue that the Tarrasque is secretly an absurdly intelligent supergenius, its not a 1-1 scale

Still canon that they can. Hell, it is even notable that the Drinker is able to weaponize its tongue (a feat comparable to being proficient if not masterful with virtually any other weapon) Literally means it can hold itself quite well at cqc (in fact, majority of its feats are precisely for close quarters combat)

And considering what adventurers have access to at the level to be able to challenge the Terrasque? Yeah, lol. The Tarrasque itself can very reasonably weaponize its body in ways to give a run for its money to other fighters.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Still canon that they can. Hell, it is even notable that the Drinker is able to weaponize its tongue (a feat comparable to being proficient if not masterful with virtually any other weapon) Literally means it can hold itself quite well at cqc (in fact, majority of its feats are precisely for close quarters combat)

And considering what adventurers have access to at the level to be able to challenge the Terrasque? Yeah, lol. The Tarrasque itself can very reasonably weaponize its body in ways to give a run for its money to other fighters.

The Drinker would be considered a Genius-Supra Genius

And can also fight people like that (if not higher)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Still canon that they can. Hell, it is even notable that the Drinker is able to weaponize its tongue (a feat comparable to being proficient if not masterful with virtually any other weapon) Literally means it can hold itself quite well at cqc (in fact, majority of its feats are precisely for close quarters combat)

And considering what adventurers have access to at the level to be able to challenge the Terrasque? Yeah, lol. The Tarrasque itself can very reasonably weaponize its body in ways to give a run for its money to other fighters.

Having natural weaponry and being strong does not make them a skill god without actual feats of martial skill backing it up

The Drinker has no weapon proficiency other than with its tongue, with is Weapon Finesse also applying to its tongue as it has no other weapons, literally all of its skills are intelligence or charisma based, its lore is that its a spy, not a warrior or even an assassin, their canon go-to combat method is hit and run implying they arent able to hold their own in a cqc fight against someone actually good at cqc, and all of their abilities are spell-like or saves.

The Drinker would be considered a Genius-Supra Genius

And can also fight people like that (if not higher)

Cool, its intelligent, that doesnt make it skilled in cqc by default, thats like saying Albert Einstein beats Mike Tyson in CQC because he's smarter conventionally

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Cool, its intelligent, that doesnt make it skilled in cqc by default, thats like saying Albert Einstein beats Mike Tyson in CQC because he's smarter conventionally

Read the page. It's measuring combat intelligence. Combatants of below intelligence to it are said to be able to use all attack options from that book, which even includes stuff like wrestling.

Having natural weaponry and being strong does not make them a skill god without actual feats of martial skill backing it up

That's the point. It can back it up against actual cqc combatants.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Read the page. It's measuring combat intelligence. Combatants of below intelligence to it are said to be able to use all attack options from that book, which even includes stuff like wrestling.


That's the point. It can back it up against actual cqc combatants.

The Drinker has nothing indicating good cqc skill

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe he isn't arguing skill in melee combat so much as arguing skill in using his abilities to great effect in melee combat.

Being able to shift back and forth between a human and a Keeper of the Old Lords with no issue would be soul resistance yeah?

No? I realize it mentioned a ritual but that was for the boss the Keeper of the Old Lords, the Hunter isn't that boss lol.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This thread has been a rollercoaster lol, went from the hunter beating the drinker to stalemating the stone golem to the hunter being DQed to the hunter being unDQed to stalemating the Drinker to the Drinker being DQed

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As all debates should be. Explore every option to come to an agreeable conclusion.