Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode V Attack of the Fanons

[ByAsura]

Spoiler: Feat

He's also comparable to an unamped Am, who deflected blasts from an X-wing into a couple of walkers

 

[Dalesean027]

Spoiler

also a unamped am was able completely restrain said X-Wing

 

[Dalesean027]

Alrighty though even if we probably can't end up scaling these to their main counterparts and I'm sure you know this info already I'm just going to point out that it was a

Spoiler

imperial class destroyer that he cut in two

 

[ByAsura]

Do all the episodes occur within the same universe.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Do all the episodes occur within the same universe.

no.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Karre overpowered the same Am that was amped by a kyber crystal that was going to blow away a planet.

 

[Dalesean027]

Karre overpowered the same Am that was amped by a kyber crystal that was going to blow away a planet.

This is true and the same kyber crystal that would've powered her enough to destroy planets is a much better feat if we can't use the star destroyer slicing

 

[ByAsura]

Watched them. I liked all the episodes except episode 2.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Length

HOLY ******* SHIT!

I told you, Anime Star Wars build different than any of it's mainstream counterpart

 

[Dalesean027]

I told you, Anime Star Wars build different than any of it's mainstream counterpart

As it should be

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

is there a way to calc the blitz in the Village Bride episode?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also i thought they were gonna aired the episode once per week, imma watch the others episodes

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Ok.

Vong FOTJ Krayt fights Abeloth. He can contend with her and injure her.

Krayt then enters the Legacy era, where he's weaker than before due to the Vong parasites. He wants to restore the power he had.

Krayt gets rid of the parasites and restores his power.

It's as simple as Darth Krayt Reborn > FOTJ Vong Krayt > Legacy Vong Krayt.

you didn't asnwer me about Karness Muur, Wyyrlok and Cade vs. Krayt. Muur is an exile and you have all exiles below Malak because of the starmap scaling. Wyyrlok and Cade are not very powerful and you're suggesting Krayt resurrected is FotJ Luke tier and having trouble with them

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

No they're their own self contained nom canon stories

is it any good?

 

[Dalesean027]

is it any good?

Very

 

[aeneax]

Why would Bane need to exist within the living world? Nothing states this to be the case, and even a minute portion of him survived in Zannah. Palpatine, for example, could still pick clone receptacles in a similar state.

Because after being pulled by Chaos you wouldn't be able to project your power in the living world anymore without an anchor. Palpatine doesn't interpret it as "a part of Bane" or "an identity imprint" from him, like Drew states. After analyzing a lot of sources yesterday, I don't think there's a good way to reconcile the inconsistency of versions, to be honest. One of the sources has to be disregarded. Book of Sith is older, and Drew's blog is N-canon. There might be a decent way to reconcile it using the Bane trilogy alone. Will possibly come back to this later, so am putting this down for now.

Can I have all six of these quotes?

Edit: Actually, I have a copy of the Book of Sith. Here's Palpatine saying his power was passed down to all of these apprentices.

"Over a millennium woven with shadowy conspiracy, their dark powers grew, teetering the Force into imbalance." < 2005, takes into account Sidious, Maul and Dooku. Based entirely on what is seen in The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.

"When the apprentice becomes more powerful than the Master, he destroys his Master and chooses an apprentice of his own." < 2013, explaining how the Rule of Two works. Contradicted by Plagueis and Sidious.

"Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy." < 2001, based entirely on what is seen in The Phantom Menace.

"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation." < 1999, based entirely on what is seen in The Phantom Menace. Gravid halted their progress. Linear power growth based on knowledge gained is impossible.

"For a thousand years, we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred." < 2006, Sidious' POV. Takes into account Sidious, Maul and Dooku.

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation." < 2015, Force and Destiny RPG. Impossible. A Banite believes Gravid was a major setback.

You don't really have novel quotes, though. Your quotes only prove that some of these guys strayed from galactic domination, they don't even begin to suggest that these people didn't equal or surpass their masters each generation, and even mentioned that the Sith continued to have this master-apprentice, apprentice = master dynamic. Plus, I'm pretty sure the TPM Scrapbook would have similar involvement from George Lucas or his production staff.

What we have from the quotes is that all Banites were powerful, but "not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them," lack of talent and control over their own powers, and these are Banites, not potential apprentices, but people that shared that same line. Then it is stated, "precious few Sith Lords honored it," meaning that few among the 30 Sith Lords followed it and reinforces the lack of focus on one apprentice. Then Gravid ***** them and Vectivus is out here being an SJW. When we get to 67BBY, we have the Naat-Plagueis incident, which doesn't help the notion of this being a very powerful line.

The rest of the second has a more complex interpretation.

"Like Plagueis, Tenebrous had obviously embraced the fact that Darth Bane's Rule of Two had expired. Precious few Sith Lords had honored it, in any case, and with good reason, as Plagueis saw it. The goals of the Grand Plan were revenge and the reacquisition of galactic power. But while most Sith Lords since Bane had in their own fashion helped to weaken the Republic, their efforts had owed less to selflessness and allegiance to the Rule than to weakness and incompetence. Driven to discharge Bane's imperative they might have been, and yet each had fallen prey to individual foibles and eccentricities, and so had failed to exact revenge on the Jedi Order."

The keywords are highlighted. Plagueis talks about how their behaviors in weakening the Republic were more related to weakness and incompetence than selflessness and allegiance to the Rule of Two. Next, he's essentially repeating what he said previously in red. The Banites were driven to discharge (ditch) Bane's imperative, but in doing so, they only fell prey to their own eccentricities, which can be interpreted as their own personal ideology.

The latest I can find is 2008.

That's not a bad date, the downside is not having the good SWTOR scaling.

Palpatine didn't visit DE Koriban, all he did was summon existing Sith (Sith that would continue to live until far later than Order 66) onto Byss. Palpatine, by this point, had mastered most dark side powers.

Edit: Palpatine also says that, while Koriban has weakened over 7,000 years, it still "whispers of dark secrets."

The scan from Empire's End #2 where Sidious asks the ancients for healing, and we can see them materializing happens in the Valley of the Dark Lords, Korriban.

That's where there's a disconnect between modern and old sources.

Exactly, this is weakened Krayt. This just proves my point and was exactly what I was saying.

I thought you had likened Krayt's decline to the state of the galaxy, my bad lmao.

Lucas still has less overall input on the and generally portrays his characters as far weaker. Yoda struggles to stop large objects, and the best Starfighters (not even a Starfighter technically, just the Slave I) have are City Block level feats.

Even in your screenshot here, portrayal is very much regarded.

Having Vader where he should be won't make a continent level character become city block level in your scaling, it'll simply have him scale to the level he should logically be in. Movies are the true portrayal of Force abilities even taking into account the EU according to Sansweet and Chee, but again, you don't need to accept that to accept the consistent notion that Anakin > Vader, and that G-canon beats lower hierarchy quotes.

There's also the novelization of RoTJ and A New Hope. IIRC, a boat load of those quotes that say

Novel is from the 80s I believe. A New Hope from 77.

 

[aeneax]

you didn't asnwer me about Karness Muur, Wyyrlok and Cade vs. Krayt. Muur is an exile and you have all exiles below Malak because of the starmap scaling. Wyyrlok and Cade are not very powerful and you're suggesting Krayt resurrected is FotJ Luke tier and having trouble with them

There is nothing to answer, I don't see any parity here. Palpatine has statements over Malak (2003) and Naga Sadow (1993), both of whom are >> Exiles. Muur is the wild card here. Vader knows of Palpatine's full power from Revenge of the Sith. Dark Times happens a few months after that, and he's sure Muur can whack his master. Muur enters a bout with Legacy Vong Krayt, who, while weaker than before, is still above someone like ROTS Sidious.

 

[ByAsura]

Because after being pulled by Chaos you wouldn't be able to project your power in the living world anymore without an anchor. Palpatine doesn't interpret it as "a part of Bane" or "an identity imprint" from him, like Drew states. After analyzing a lot of sources yesterday, I don't think there's a good way to reconcile the inconsistency of versions, to be honest. One of the sources has to be disregarded. Book of Sith is older, and Drew's blog is N-canon. There might be a decent way to reconcile it using the Bane trilogy alone. Will possibly come back to this later, so am putting this down for now.

What you're saying right now doesn't contradict anything. His apprentices down the line could be anchors.

But I don't really care that much, tbh. I already have this quote from the Book of Sith and some other stuff. You brought the book up in a failed attempt to portray it as contradictory to what I was saying, and I showed that it wasn't. So dumping the book really means nothing.

What we have from the quotes is that all Banites were powerful, but "not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them," lack of talent and control over their own powers, and these are Banites, not potential apprentices, but people that shared that same line.

None of that suggests they're weak or didn't get stronger per each new generation. The fact that they didn't have a lot of the holocrons or previous information (such as alchemy) explains this quite perfectly.

Then it is stated, "precious few Sith Lords honored it," meaning that few among the 30 Sith Lords followed it and reinforces the lack of focus on one apprentice. Then Gravid ***** them and Vectivus is out here being an SJW.

Again, galactic domination. It is frequently bashed over our heads that these Sith get stronger and stronger. There is merit to having higher forms of canon, but then there's also merit in consistency.

"When the apprentice becomes more powerful than the Master, he destroys his Master and chooses an apprentice of his own." < 2013, explaining how the Rule of Two works. Contradicted by Plagueis and Sidious.

"Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy." < 2001, based entirely on what is seen in The Phantom Menace.

"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation." < 1999, based entirely on what is seen in The Phantom Menace. Gravid halted their progress. Linear power growth based on knowledge gained is impossible.

"For a thousand years, we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred." < 2006, Sidious' POV. Takes into account Sidious, Maul and Dooku.

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation." < 2015, Force and Destiny RPG. Impossible. A Banite believes Gravid was a major setback.

It's not even contradicted by those two, they just didn't follow it themselves. Previous Sith became stronger.

Not really contradicted by new canon. Even your quotes don't suggest they didn't become more and more powerful, just that the Sith didn't follow ideals of galactic conquest.

It's not just knowledge, they're getting their own master's training at an earlier point. Also, the Sith did develop some new techniques.

Why would the existence of Maul, Palpatine and Dooku suddenly invalidate every past Sith? It literally says 'for thousands of years', not 'three generations', so he's very obviously referring to the whole Banite line.

Even if this Banite is wrong about Gravid, why does that invalidate every Sith growing stronger from generation to generation?

When we get to 67BBY, we have the Naat-Plagueis incident, which doesn't help the notion of this being a very powerful line.

I'm still waiting for that actual quote. It just generally makes very little sense given how Naat was the second choice of Venamis.

The keywords are highlighted. Plagueis talks about how their behaviors in weakening the Republic were more related to weakness and incompetence than selflessness and allegiance to the Rule of Two. Next, he's essentially repeating what he said previously in red. The Banites were driven to discharge (ditch) Bane's imperative, but in doing so, they only fell prey to their own eccentricities, which can be interpreted as their own personal ideology.

And yet Sith Lords still continued to adopt an apprentice who'd eventually surpass them. This did stop at Plagueis, but Plagueis is the subject, after all.

The scan from Empire's End #2 where Sidious asks the ancients for healing, and we can see them materializing happens in the Valley of the Dark Lords, Korriban.

That's where there's a disconnect between modern and old sources.

I thought he was summoning them on Byss.

Still, even though Korriban did grow weaker, it still had plenty of secrets, and two thirds of the Sith Palpatine communicated with were able to resurrect themselves roughly at the same time as Dark Empire. I see no contradiction here.

Having Vader where he should be won't make a continent level character become city block level in your scaling, it'll simply have him scale to the level he should logically be in.

Yes, but you have to admit there's a point where such feats disconnect completely from the films and George Lucas' influence. Let's take Starkiller, for example. He's about on par with Vader, yet he literally wrenches Star Destroyers out of the sky. Vader and every single other Force-user within the Star Wars films have nothing close, and Yoda even struggles to lift something that weighs a few tons in AoTC.

The films are strongly limited by special effects, while most of the EU doesn't have these limitations. It's simply best to separate the EU from the films, and even George Lucas (despite having massive influence over the EU) considers them different dimensions. It doesn't mean they're non-canon, just that separating these portrayals is the most logical choice of action.

Movies are the true portrayal of Force abilities even taking into account the EU according to Sansweet and Chee, but again, you don't need to accept that to accept the consistent notion that Anakin > Vader, and that G-canon beats lower hierarchy quotes.

Literally the films say Vader surpasses Anakin by ANH, though.

Novel is from the 80s I believe. A New Hope from 77.

It was George Lucas/his other colleagues, though. He wrote his scrips a long time ago, and it seems like most of his quotes about Anakin (at least the ones I can remember, I'm not about to watch hours of BTS footage) don't suggest he was permanently weakened.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

WOG is a pointless argument if it's not supported by the content of the work.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

though I am in agreement with separating the Lucas Universe from Legends for scaling because the canon hierarchy for the EU is only helpful in regards to reconciling strict contradictions of interpretations. however, for scaling on the wiki it is a non sequitur because we don't view the EU from a licensing POV but as amalgamated Continuity that happens to include George's Original six films and series, in which case our standards would apply like it would for any verse. meaning that if for some reason Lucas said that Anakin at his most powerful could only blow up a building but it wasn't supported by the rest of the EU then it wouldn't matter what Mr Lucas said.

 

[ByAsura]

There is some precedent. We have keys for different portrayals on some of our comic pages, like Supreme.

It's much less of a headache to split them.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

it's not that big of a deal considering you could argue that each Continuity is widely different as well even outside of just AP.

“While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.”
–“The Legendary Star Wars Expanded Universe Turns a New Page”, April 25th, 2014

“There are two worlds here; There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books.”
– George Lucas, Cinescape, July 2001

don’t read that stuff. I haven’t read any of the novels. I don’t know anything about that world. That’s a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”


– George Lucas, Starlog, August 2005

“Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it’s hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there’s the TV show and then there’s all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn’t have anything to do with each other. So I said, ‘OK, go ahead.’”
– George Lucas, Total Film, May 2007

[Lucas’] canon – and when I say ‘his canon’, I’m talking about what he was doing in the films and what he was doing in The Clone Wars – was hugely important. But what we were doing in the books really wasn’t on his radar.”


–Leland Chee, SyFy’s “Fandom Files #13”, January 2018

“The most definitive canon of the Star Wars universe is encompassed by the feature films and television productions in which George Lucas is directly involved. The movies and the Clone Wars television series are what he and his handpicked writers reference when adding cinematic adventures to the Star Wars oeuvre. But Lucas allows for an Expanded Universe that exists parallel to the one he directly oversees. […] Though these [Expanded Universe] stories may get his stamp of approval, they don’t enter his canon unless they are depicted cinematically in one of his projects.”
-Pablo Hidalgo, Star Wars: The Essential Reader’s Companion, October 2nd, 2012

“I’ve left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That’s because there isn’t any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn’t at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn’t come back to life, the Emperor doesn’t get cloned and Luke doesn’t get married…”
–George Lucas, Total Film, May 2007

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Let's stop talking about Legends shennanigans for a moment and focus on Visions, shall we?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Anyway watched all of it and man that's one of really epic train ride, everything was so masterpiece and so good (with the exception of Tattooine Rapshody, that one feel decent but not great), all i can say that The Twins, Village Brides, Ninth Jedi, The Duel, and Lop & Ocho need their own continuity (The Ronin confirmed to have an continuity in form of Novel)

As for the feats, The Twins had the most lunatic feats so far
And by that time we can make the profiles for the Visions Chars sooner or later

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Let's stop talking about Legends shennanigans for a moment and focus on Visions, shall we?

is there good calc material? i haven't watched it yet but people are talking about some interesting feats on discord

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

is there good calc material? i haven't watched it yet but people are talking about some interesting feats on discord

The Twins episode, that's where we get the most lunatic feats and i think it's can be calculated (like Karre cleaving Star Destroyer in half)

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

wow a mom sues the jedi for her baby being kidnapped but doesn't give a shit about her baby later due to her celebrity status.

what the heck man

 

[aeneax]

What you're saying right now doesn't contradict anything. His apprentices down the line could be anchors.

I'll drop our ROT debate to focus on LFL and Vader. I think that going from your POV, it might be simpler to apply to the wiki as well. Furthermore, I think I ended up getting too side-tracked and failed to present much.

Yes, but you have to admit there's a point where such feats disconnect completely from the films and George Lucas' influence. Let's take Starkiller, for example. He's about on par with Vader, yet he literally wrenches Star Destroyers out of the sky. Vader and every single other Force-user within the Star Wars films have nothing close, and Yoda even struggles to lift something that weighs a few tons in AoTC.

The films are strongly limited by special effects, while most of the EU doesn't have these limitations. It's simply best to separate the EU from the films, and even George Lucas (despite having massive influence over the EU) considers them different dimensions. It doesn't mean they're non-canon, just that separating these portrayals is the most logical choice of action.

There's a point of disconnect between Legends and Legends itself. Compare feats presented by J. Anderson to those presented by Karen Traviss, for example. Legends is not this straight line where power is consistent. TFU, as an example used, was artificially amped up to enhance gameplay. You can say that every Star Wars story has its own power level reality that doesn't apply to the rest of Legends (the Holocron Database doesn't record powers level, and as such, the authors don't have to abide by previously established feats or statements). Few authors are consistent (Denning is the only consistent Luke author), and that's why establishing a baseline of power is something we have to do arbitrarily, and in this I partially agree with your point on feats, but not on G-canon not applying to the relationship of the characters.

We already ignore tuned-down Legends portrayals in favor of mega-feats, and that's nothing new. The EU is beholden to G-canon. That's a notion reaffirmed by Sansweet, Chee and Sue Rostini. Lucas' influence extends throughout the OT and the prequels. If you consider only his power level commentaries, he influences a tiny portion of PT and OT characters, and all the conclusions he reaches can also be reached by using only C-canon sources.

Literally the films say Vader surpasses Anakin by ANH, though.

Lucas started working on the prequels in the 90s. Again, he hadn't even created the actual character to draw that comparison.

It was George Lucas/his other colleagues, though. He wrote his scrips a long time ago, and it seems like most of his quotes about Anakin (at least the ones I can remember, I'm not about to watch hours of BTS footage) don't suggest he was permanently weakened.

They don't have anything to compare Vader to, as Anakin hadn't been created yet. Lucas and high-ranking LFL officials are consistent on the idea of Anakin being far superior to Vader (interview from 2003) as soon as Lucas started working on the prequel trilogy.

Lucas states that Vader's decline happens due to his injuries and the suit, which is something Vader can never fix. He says that in the ANH Archival Interviews, ESB commentary and ROTJ Commentary. Keep in mind that most of his quotes were made after the OT released, so I don't see any reason why Lucas would only refer to certain iterations of Vader without specifying that.

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has, so I wanted that relationship of Vader kind of being reduced to, I mean an assistant is too low a word, but he’s a henchmen, which is the impression you had when you saw the first movie by itself, but if you reflect on it a little bit you realize it’s actually not the way it is, the fact that he basically takes orders from Tarkin, who isn’t an equal to him at all, you know he’s way below him, really, but he doesn’t have much choice because he’s hobbled by his infirmities and the New Order, which he’s become a part of.

WOG is a pointless argument if it's not supported by the content of the work.

Word of God is not pointless in Legends. Testament to this is how 1997's Visions of the Future novelization made reference to Yoda fighting a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi on Dagobah during the Clone Wars. However, the Revenge of the Sith script states Yoda "surveys the unfamiliar terrain" after arriving on Dagobah, so LFL deemed all references to Yoda on Dagobah in Visions to be simply non-canon -- even despite the fact it destroyed the backstory of the novel's central character, Jorj Car'das. This was only reconciled later by pushing the events back until after Revenge of the Sith. However, LFL does have authority to regulate what is and isn't a part of their universe and, in exceptional circumstances, have even restricted Lucas positions strictly to his own universe, generally first with Lucas' permission. For example, although Lucas' universe holds Boba Fett died in the Sarlaac and Palpatine never returned as a clone, the LFL universe does -- but only after Lucas signed off and approved of such happenings there, even restricting Anakin from returning in Dark Empire.

The second-highest lore authority is adamant on Lucas' vision having priority in the Holocron, the truth of canon.

Lucas personally audited, approved and had the final say regarding a lot of the important works. He also had the power to restrict authors of already ongoing works, that he had nothing to do with before, from killing certain characters.

though I am in agreement with separating the Lucas Universe from Legends for scaling because the canon hierarchy for the EU is only helpful in regards to reconciling strict contradictions of interpretations. however, for scaling on the wiki it is a non sequitur because we don't view the EU from a licensing POV but as amalgamated Continuity that happens to include George's Original six films and series, in which case our standards would apply like it would for any verse. meaning that if for some reason Lucas said that Anakin at his most powerful could only blow up a building but it wasn't supported by the rest of the EU then it wouldn't matter what Mr Lucas said.

You can reconcile your wiki's goal with the reality of canon.

 

[ByAsura]

There's a point of disconnect between Legends and Legends itself. Compare feats presented by J. Anderson to those presented by Karen Traviss, for example. Legends is not this straight line where power is consistent. TFU, as an example used, was artificially amped up to enhance gameplay. You can say that every Star Wars story has its own power level reality that doesn't apply to the rest of Legends (the Holocron Database doesn't record powers level, and as such, the authors don't have to abide by previously established feats or statements).

If the films are supposedly the "true representation" of Force abilities, that presents the perfect reason to separate the EU from film portrayal.

They're not consistent with each other, yes, but groundwork outside of G-canon has been established to reconcile this, such as guides. Also, we're planning to give EU characters a varies tier for this reason.

It's not just G-canon, as well. The TV shows are getting lumped in because more care is given by Lucas and it's vastly watered down.

• "The clarify this point just a little bit further, The Clone Wars will not be considered Expanded Universe. They'll be ranked up there with The Movies."

Few authors are consistent (Denning is the only consistent Luke author), and that's why establishing a baseline of power is something we have to do arbitrarily, and in this I partially agree with your point on feats, but not on G-canon not applying to the relationship of the characters.

I'm not saying G-canon doesn't apply at all. Clearly the films are canon to them, it's just that portrayals will very much be case-by-case. For example, it's extremely consistent outside of G-canon that Dooku grew massively stronger as the Clone Wars progressed, and Mace used Vapaad to equal Palpatine.

We already ignore tuned-down Legends portrayals in favor of mega-feats, and that's nothing new. The EU is beholden to G-canon. That's a notion reaffirmed by Sansweet, Chee and Sue Rostini.

Beholden to George Lucas' vision =/= planet busting super powers. You can have someone concerned about story and contradictions without caring over a character diverting a huge energy beam into a starship (this is from Legacy War, btw).

George Lucas' view itself wasn't that strict on canon (he and Leland after 2008 outright don't consider them canon, in fact), even though projects and concepts were his to approve. It's more that the authors chose to emulate his stories.

• "He [Lucas] didn't really have that much concern for what we were doing in the books and games. So the Expanded Universe was very much separate. What we had to do in the Expanded Universe was, if George did something in the films that contradicted something we had done in the Expanded Universe, then we'd have to change the EU to match what he did in the films."

Lucas' influence extends throughout the OT and the prequels. If you consider only his power level commentaries, he influences a tiny portion of PT and OT characters, and all the conclusions he reaches can also be reached by using only C-canon sources.

And yet the power levels and scaling in EU media is pretty different than what he'd intended for the OT and prequels.

He has influence, but a lot of what Lucas himself believes just isn't followed by Legends writers. His plotlines are.

Lucas started working on the prequels in the 90s. Again, he hadn't even created the actual character to draw that comparison.

He'd very much come up with that idea, including Obi-Wan crippling him with lava. There's some differences, but he's made it clear that he came up with the outline of the story for quite a while.

They don't have anything to compare Vader to, as Anakin hadn't been created yet. Lucas and high-ranking LFL officials are consistent on the idea of Anakin being far superior to Vader (interview from 2003) as soon as Lucas started working on the prequel trilogy.

That quote totally contradicts what we actually see in the films. Vader at some of his weakest levels of power was still far superior to most of the Jedi Masters in the prequel trilogy and Count Dooku, and Luke (though much weaker than the Emperor) is outright confirmed by Palpatine (who kills Jedi Masters on the Council almost instantly) himself to be a substantial threat to his life in the films.

Lucas states that Vader's decline happens due to his injuries and the suit, which is something Vader can never fix. He says that in the ANH Archival Interviews, ESB commentary and ROTJ Commentary. Keep in mind that most of his quotes were made after the OT released, so I don't see any reason why Lucas would only refer to certain iterations of Vader without specifying that.

Kind of falls under Death of the Author. Such a thing doesn't exist in the Original Trilogy, and only the opposite is stated.

Plus, Lucas doesn't state in those two quotes that Vader didn't become stronger over time, he said that the Obi-Wan battle left him weakened and unable to surpass the Emperor due to his lowered potential. But the powers of the Emperor also grow over time.

 

[aeneax]

If the films are supposedly the "true representation" of Force abilities, that presents the perfect reason to separate the EU from film portrayal.

They're not consistent with each other, yes, but groundwork outside of G-canon has been established to reconcile this, such as guides. Also, we're planning to give EU characters a varies tier for this reason.

It's not just G-canon, as well. The TV shows are getting lumped in because more care is given by Lucas and it's vastly watered down.

• "The clarify this point just a little bit further, The Clone Wars will not be considered Expanded Universe. They'll be ranked up there with The Movies."

Legends also doesn't have a consistent portrayal of Force abilities, and it never did. The main point here is to use G-canon to overwrite contradictions.

No, they haven't. LFL officials have neither expectation nor anticipation for future authors to beholden themselves to prior official power-level indications. LFL does not record power-levels in the Holocron database system. LFL does not advise or change power-levels in upcoming sources (indeed, they give authors total freedom on dictating the power-levels of their work). LFL does not even believe power-levels can be truly "attained or measured" in the first place. LFL regards power-level statements as "colorful prose for a book" or "for marketing purposes" and power-level statistics as "for gameplay purposes only," emphasizing that books should not be "artificially limited" by such.

I'm not saying G-canon doesn't apply at all. Clearly the films are canon to them, it's just that portrayals will very much be case-by-case. For example, it's extremely consistent outside of G-canon that Dooku grew massively stronger as the Clone Wars progressed, and Mace used Vapaad to equal Palpatine.

Then we go case-by-case by reconciling and examining things. G-canon is ever-changing, too. Lucas might've believed that Anakin only doubled his power between AOTC and ROTS, but this is a notion that he changed with TCW, and the same goes for Dooku. Stover states that "what's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone." You can see the ROTS novel as a "good-enough" representation of Lucas' true vision, and that includes Vaapad.

Beholden to George Lucas' vision =/= planet busting super powers. You can have someone concerned about story and contradictions without caring over a character diverting a huge energy beam into a starship (this is from Legacy War, btw).

George Lucas' view itself wasn't that strict on canon (he and Leland after 2008 outright don't consider them canon, in fact), even though projects and concepts were his to approve. It's more that the authors chose to emulate his stories.

Lucas' intent will mostly affect characters or works that are directly tied into his vision, e.g. characters from the prequels, TCW and the OT. He's heavily involved in important projects related to those characters. He had the final say regarding character relations in TFU, ROTS game director had to speak with Lucas from the very beginning to make the game as consistent as possible, ROTS novel was line-edited by Lucas, he had the final say when Tom decided to create the ancient Sith and bring back Palpatine, he had the final say regarding the death of his characters post-ROTJ, he had the final say regarding Boba's return, etc.

Chee states Lucas' vision applies in 2012. And again, Lucas' universe is separated from a G-canon perspective. C and lower canons are bound to follow directives from him, and any of his stories trumps continuity. Power levels are disregarded by the authors themselves when making Legends content. Surely, as a Star Wars debater, you know that planet busting superpowers are less than 0.1% of the feats of power, and most of the time the most impressive feat they pull off is affecting a small-medium starship. You can choose whatever baseline of power you want, and I won't contest that. Have 'em at wall level, mountain level, galaxy level. But as Legends is contradictory regarding the PT and OT, G-canon should take precedence in that matter.

And yet the power levels and scaling in EU media is pretty different than what he'd intended for the OT and prequels.

He has influence, but a lot of what Lucas himself believes just isn't followed by Legends writers. His plotlines are.

The OT novels and comics adaptations of the movies are pretty consistent with scaled down feats and scaling, if memory serves. The comics follow the directive that Vader is not conflicted and that Vader and Luke are equals in terms of power, which is exactly what Lucas says in Birth of a Lightsaber and intended per the scripts. ROTJ novel portrays the fight in the same way, except Vader is being amped by the Emperor at all times. Lucas thinks that the ROTS novel portrayal of powers is consistent enough with his vision, etc.

Lucas will have more influence on the works that are closely related to his. That's why I'm not contesting which feats you're taking as valid, only that the relationship between the characters apply.

He'd very much come up with that idea, including Obi-Wan crippling him with lava. There's some differences, but he's made it clear that he came up with the outline of the story for quite a while.

Upon further Googling, he started working on the PT in 94. The Force is a much simpler concept in the OT. Lucas is clear on Vader losing power and potential. ROTS novel states the same thing, that the power Vader could channel was now only a memory.

That quote totally contradicts what we actually see in the films. Vader at some of his weakest levels of power was still far superior to most of the Jedi Masters in the prequel trilogy and Count Dooku, and Luke (though much weaker than the Emperor) is outright confirmed by Palpatine (who kills Jedi Masters on the Council almost instantly) himself to be a substantial threat to his life in the films.

Vader's standing is not that high if you examine how he's portrayed, and that was Lucas' intention.

ANH DVD commentary:

"In this particular movie, he is a rather pathetic character--he's a shadow of his former self, and he's getting pushed around by bureaucrats, you know it's not all together what people originally thought Vader was, which was this all-powerful king of the universe."

ANH Vader loses to a clone of TPM Maul. Ben is weaker than ever, and using nearly all of his reserves to ascend mid-fight, and still is at worst equal to Vader and at best superior (Lucas has Ben as superior). Alkin Neret has more potential and can grow in power at a faster rate than Vader.

Luke is a threat in the context of what he can become. C-canon doesn't help him either, as Luke gets overpowered by random nightsisters in 8 ABY. Luke being incapable of reflecting torture-level lightning of a Palpatine who can't even properly channel his power without destroying his own body is supposed to represent that he's not powerful by the standards of Yoda or Dooku.

Kind of falls under Death of the Author. Such a thing doesn't exist in the Original Trilogy, and only the opposite is stated.

Plus, Lucas doesn't state in those two quotes that Vader didn't become stronger over time, he said that the Obi-Wan battle left him weakened and unable to surpass the Emperor due to his lowered potential. But the powers of the Emperor also grow over time.

LFL can decide what is canon and it explicitly dictates Lucas' words as canon, which "overrides" death of the author in that specific case, as DoA isn't some metaphysically absolute statement.

We both know that's not his intent. Hidalgo relays that Lucas believes that AOTC Anakin > ROTJ Vader. Let's take a look at the quotes.

"Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force" because he became half-man and half-machine, he has lost a lot of the power of the Force.

"if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably." I'm just an illiterate Mexican, but I'd say there's an obvious insinuation that Vader becoming half-machine is a relevant variable in Vader's powers being diminished.

“Anakin, as [a] Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind.” < Vader being weaker is directly related to what became of his physical form.

This is not something Vader can fix.

 

[aeneax]

is there good calc material? i haven't watched it yet but people are talking about some interesting feats on discord

Did you know there's a quote from 2014 putting Maul above all previous Sith Lords?

 

[ByAsura]

Legends also doesn't have a consistent portrayal of Force abilities, and it never did. The main point here is to use G-canon to overwrite contradictions.

G-canon simply doesn't work. It can't account for even a tiny fraction of these so-called contradiction (in reality, G-canon is the outlier most of the time).

No, they haven't. LFL officials have neither expectation nor anticipation for future authors to beholden themselves to prior official power-level indications. LFL does not record power-levels in the Holocron database system. LFL does not advise or change power-levels in upcoming sources (indeed, they give authors total freedom on dictating the power-levels of their work). LFL does not even believe power-levels can be truly "attained or measured" in the first place.

Yes they have. Once again, guides, statements and groundwork exist. I don't care what the LFL or the holocron system have to say about power, you have things outside them about power.

Authors have a pretty similar idea of power most of the time. Their works are also similarly intertwined, especially throughout the 90s.

What you're also telling me is that Lucasfilm cares way less about power than the EU.

LFL regards power-level statements as "colorful prose for a book" or "for marketing purposes" and power-level statistics as "for gameplay purposes only," emphasizing that books should not be "artificially limited" by such.

Again, just more reasoning to separate the films. The films are strongly limited, EU media simply isn't.

Then we go case-by-case by reconciling and examining things. G-canon is ever-changing, too. Lucas might've believed that Anakin only doubled his power between AOTC and ROTS, but this is a notion that he changed with TCW, and the same goes for Dooku. Stover states that "what's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone." You can see the ROTS novel as a "good-enough" representation of Lucas' true vision, and that includes Vaapad.

And yet the novelization doesn't take account for their Clone Wars growth at all, or any of the events in between.

• "Really," Dooku said, "this is pathetic." Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction, while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to out-maneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could to do keep from laughing out loud. It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat—attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides—while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner. Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another—and occasionally flip over a head here and there—so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way. They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques. They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis. They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force. He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun. However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man. He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats. "Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."

Lucas' intent will mostly affect characters or works that are directly tied into his vision, e.g. characters from the prequels, TCW and the OT. He's heavily involved in important projects related to those characters. He had the final say regarding character relations in TFU, ROTS game director had to speak with Lucas from the very beginning to make the game as consistent as possible, ROTS novel was line-edited by Lucas, he had the final say when Tom decided to create the ancient Sith and bring back Palpatine, he had the final say regarding the death of his characters post-ROTJ, he had the final say regarding Boba's return, etc.

None of those have anything to do with power. Lucas just doesn't care about power, and, in spite of having influence, still considers these works totally non-canonical.

Let's look at the RoTS game, for example; it has a completely alternate ending, there's scenes and fights that don't exist in RoTS. So, basically, Lucas still influences stuff that's outright non-canonical to him. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be separated as non-canonical. Even Chee (the overseer of canon, basically) and Lucas decided that "pillars" was a better word than "tiers" because they're parallel dimensions.

Chee states Lucas' vision applies in 2012. And again, Lucas' universe is separated from a G-canon perspective. C and lower canons are bound to follow directives from him, and any of his stories trumps continuity.

They follow a general storyline, but not his exact intent.

Power levels are disregarded by the authors themselves when making Legends content.

Which is why we're tailoring it to individuals. Even Starkiller is getting his own portrayal because TFU is completely self-contained. It's not just the films that are getting separated.

Surely, as a Star Wars debater, you know that planet busting superpowers are less than 0.1% of the feats of power, and most of the time the most impressive feat they pull off is affecting a small-medium starship.

Affecting a starship isn't at all contradictory to planet-busting, weirdly. Not even the highest tier Force-users have lifted anything more than a few million tonnes in Legends. But contradictory stuff like this is why we're giving them varies tiers.

You can choose whatever baseline of power you want, and I won't contest that. Have 'em at wall level, mountain level, galaxy level. But as Legends is contradictory regarding the PT and OT, G-canon should take precedence in that matter.

There will be no baseline. There'll be tiers.

The OT novels and comics adaptations of the movies are pretty consistent with scaled down feats and scaling, if memory serves. The comics follow the directive that Vader is not conflicted and that Vader and Luke are equals in terms of power, which is exactly what Lucas says in Birth of a Lightsaber and intended per the scripts. ROTJ novel portrays the fight in the same way, except Vader is being amped by the Emperor at all times. Lucas thinks that the ROTS novel portrayal of powers is consistent enough with his vision, etc.

They're just extensions of his own media, typically based off his scripts or direct involvement, so of course they would (mostly) follow his vision.

Lucas will have more influence on the works that are closely related to his. That's why I'm not contesting which feats you're taking as valid, only that the relationship between the characters apply.

Yet they don't. Hence your logic fails completely.

Upon further Googling, he started working on the PT in 94.

I guess I stand slightly corrected then (it's not exactly what I was saying), but he had an overall view of the franchise. The reason he had such a massive gap in time was simply because A) he had kids to take care of, and B) VFX technology was improving.

Lucas is clear on Vader losing power and potential.

I'll just concede here. Clearly Lucas does intend him to be permanently weakened, only that just isn't implied by the actual films.

ANH Vader loses to a clone of TPM Maul.

Who was made stronger with magic. Also, Vader won.

Ben is weaker than ever, and using nearly all of his reserves to ascend mid-fight, and still is at worst equal to Vader and at best superior (Lucas has Ben as superior).

IIRC, Lucas had Ben as superior in an old version script. If there's some other quotes on this, I'd genuinely appreciate it if I could see.

In the EU (I'm talking EU here because you're talking about how his vision applies), Luke was a much greater threat both to him and the Emperor, yet he's equal or weaker than Vader.

Alkin Neret has more potential and can grow in power at a faster rate than Vader.

And why does that matter? Does she scale to anyone or have any bearing on anything?

Luke is a threat in the context of what he can become.

The context is that Sidious is afraid of Luke becoming powerful enough to threaten them both, and Vader confirms that he's just as powerful as the Emperor foresaw RoTJ.

C-canon doesn't help him either, as Luke gets overpowered by random nightsisters in 8 ABY.

Nightsiders whom Luke described as being on par with Vader.

Luke being incapable of reflecting torture-level lightning of a Palpatine who can't even properly channel his power without destroying his own body is supposed to represent that he's not powerful by the standards of Yoda or Dooku.

I'll concede for the films here, but this kind of stuff makes absolutely no sense in the EU (I believe even the RoTJ novel talks about Sidious growing his powers, but I could be wrong) and it's why I'm even separating them.

LFL can decide what is canon and it explicitly dictates Lucas' words as canon, which "overrides" death of the author in that specific case, as DoA isn't some metaphysically absolute statement.

How does that at all override DoA, and where are you getting this quote? It's from the films, so it's literally the canon that can't apparently can't be overridden.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

From my point of view the republic is evil.


also

Spoiler: Wow Yoda Wow

Yoda doesn't give a shit about what his best friend's reasoning is and it later bites him in the back.

 

[Urshani]

Ok i don't know if this counts as derailing but I checked this thread and jesus the walls of text

Alright, you may go on.

 

[ByAsura]

Tbh, I don't want to continue the whole canon discussion. It's basically just difference of opinion at this point.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So... Has anyone brought up the 4-B feat from Visions?

 

[ByAsura]

What 4-B feat?