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[STAFF ONLY] Universal Energy System page is flawed

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M3X_2.0

VS Battles
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There is a huge problem with how this wiki carries universal energy system scaling. Or rather not a problem, but a mechanic ignored all over.

Our universal energy system page allows users to scale techniques between each other. A character has tier 8 lightning, it can scale to a fire or water attack.You have scenarios where it's fine, as an energy attack usually would withhold similar levels of energy to another energy attack. Similar circumstances to output it and so on.The issue is when it stretches to physical capabilities.

Users on this wiki constantly scale their character's physicals to strong attacks with the sole reasoning of "it uses the same energy", only ever differentiating it when it's

A. A technique that enhances physicals, as you wouldn't scale to a physical enhancing ability with physicals

B. A technique that exhausts the user

C. A technique that the user is hurt from

D. Transformations (which end up scaling attacks to the transformation's physicals)

This now disregards all of their inferior feats in hopes of scaling to higher values.

Characters not being able to breaks walls with physicals but do so with stronger techniques, and they note the antifeats as PIS due to "they should scale to their techniques done by special abilities fueled by their UES".

A big issue that explains this is "proving equivalent quantity". Characters don't often input the same attacks into their bodies that they do to their attacks.
Characters imbue energy into their head, ears, eyes, fists, arms, shoulders, knees, feet, elbows, and then they imbue all that energy into a single attack. Randomly, their fist would scale to the same energy.

Of course, you could say "they downscale", but do they really?
Assuming all attacks/techniques scale to physicals under UES is kind of dumb since it ruins the common idea of techniques bringing out more power.

Examples: Naruto, Dragon Ball and Jujutsu Kaisen.

There has to be more criteria to scale special attacks/energy blasts to physicals attacks rather than "they share the same energy".
 
I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Idk I feel like there should either be feats of scaling to them or statements of utilizing more energy. A lot of the time it's "ok they did this, so now their punches scale, their kicks scale, their dura scales, everything"

So yeah this is good
 
Basically the problem is this:

1. Prove that your attacks (supernatural and physical) use the same amount of energy from said energy source

2. Prove that using more energy from said energy source results in a proportional increase of your attacks (Both supernatural and physical)

Not sure about DB and Naruto, but JJK might disqualify for Criteria 1. I dunno.

If it doesn't qualify for Criteria 1, it's not UES, but prolly some other Energy System, like Non-Physical or Limited.

The exhaustion argument relies on Criteria 1, so if Criteria 1 isn't even met, then the Exhaustion argument becomes a non-factor.

@DarkDragonMedeus @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Theglassman12 @Planck69 @Hellbeast1
 
There is a huge problem with how this wiki carries universal energy system scaling. Or rather not a problem, but a mechanic ignored all over.

Our universal energy system page allows users to scale techniques between each other. A character has tier 8 lightning, it can scale to a fire or water attack.You have scenarios where it's fine, as an energy attack usually would withhold similar levels of energy to another energy attack. Similar circumstances to output it and so on.The issue is when it stretches to physical capabilities.

Users on this wiki constantly scale their character's physicals to strong attacks with the sole reasoning of "it uses the same energy",
Yeah nah, that's not a qualifying component.

This is:

"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power (or can convert between the different kinds of power) and use up a similar amount of power to each other"

only ever differentiating it when it's

A. A technique that enhances physicals, as you wouldn't scale to a physical enhancing ability with physicals
Must've had a mistype.

B. A technique that exhausts the user
Kinda useless if you can't prove "similar amount of power used" criteria.

C. A technique that the user is hurt from
Same as above.

D. Transformations (which end up scaling attacks to the transformation's physicals)
Is it a proportional increase for all attacks?

This now disregards all of their inferior feats in hopes of scaling to higher values.
If the "similar amount of power" argument is not satisfied, yeah.

Characters not being able to breaks walls with physicals but do so with stronger techniques, and they note the antifeats as PIS due to "they should scale to their techniques done by special abilities fueled by their UES".
Then it ain't a UES.

A big issue that explains this is "proving equivalent quantity". Characters don't often input the same attacks into their bodies that they do to their attacks.
Not being able to use the same quantity of energy for both physicals and supernatural attacks disqualifies it from being UES.

Characters imbue energy into their head, ears, eyes, fists, arms, shoulders, knees, feet, elbows, and then they imbue all that energy into a single attack. Randomly, their fist would scale to the same energy.
Depends on context.

Of course, you could say "they downscale", but do they really?
Assuming all attacks/techniques scale to physicals under UES is kind of dumb since it ruins the common idea of techniques bringing out more power.
Ultimate attacks obviously exist. We scale those above normal stats.

But again, it ain't a UES if you can't qualify the "similar amount of power to each other" argument.

No we do not
"a character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power (or can convert between the different kinds of power) and use up a similar amount of power to each other"

Right here. UES has to qualify everything Limited Energy Systems and Non-Physical Energy Systems qualify for.
 
So should we close this thread, or is there anything constructive that we should do here?
 
Not sure about DB and Naruto, but JJK might disqualify for Criteria 1. I dunno.
Dragon Ball 100% qualifies for UES. I'm fact it might be one of the most straightforward examples of UES on the site.

Naruto is similar, with more chakra being able to increase physicals and speed. Techniques are just using the chakra in specialized ways rather than being direct power boosters afaik.
 
Dragon Ball 100% qualifies for UES. I'm fact it might be one of the most straightforward examples of UES on the site.

Naruto is similar, with more chakra being able to increase physicals and speed. Techniques are just using the chakra in specialized ways rather than being direct power boosters afaik.
Thank you for clarifying.
 
Dragon Ball 100% qualifies for UES. I'm fact it might be one of the most straightforward examples of UES on the site.

Naruto is similar, with more chakra being able to increase physicals and speed. Techniques are just using the chakra in specialized ways rather than being direct power boosters afaik.
From my knowledge they don't have info that they amp their physicals with the same amount of energy that they utilize in their bodies, with techniques being stronger than their amped physicals a lot
 
It's already been closed, but just a few examples.

The system and page is fine where it is; it's just that there's other side issues. It comes from some verses may have things accepted as UES inappropriately; such as JJK. But Ki from Dragon Ball is simply put the most definitive textbook example of a UES. It may not be the most consistent or best example ever nor is it a perfect UES where there could be verses that have something similar to but better than Ki Control. But Ki most definitely amps physical striking strength and speed; anyone who's even remotely tried arguing against it has simply not read enough Dragon Ball when it's literally explained in great detail by Mr Popo quite early in Dragon Ball. But it literally enhances physical strength and speed and there are plenty of cases where someone mentions "Putting all their energy into that kick/punch." And Naruto also has similar statements regarding Chakra and such.

And we have explained that we don't always downscale casual attacks from certain final attacks that are far above all their other techniques and especially suicide attacks. Those are exceptions not the norms to the UES and which we don't always scale final attacks to physical stats and what not. Likewise, it's also technically possible for non-UES to scale to striking strength or durability. Since even if they don't always share energy systems, characters can often tank magical/energy attacks and later harm the same characters via punching, kicking, or sword swings. So even with the system distinctions in mind, there are still case by case scenarios.

But the thread rightfully should have been closed and KLOL explained details for the most part. And some of those other verses should be handled in different threads yes.
 
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