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I will wait for @UchihaSlayer96 before casting a proper vote, but am leaning to agree right now
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KT's Naruto Chakra Thread: Limited Energy System
- Thread starter KingTempest
- Start date
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Why are you acting like thos genuinely, this thread hasn't even been out that long at all and you're acting like a goof
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I will admit my knowledge on the full details on Chakra on limited compared to other examples such as Ki and it's admittedly a lot more convoluted compared to Ki's reasons. But I still have quite a few issues for what the OP is attempting to argue and appears some of the critiques are surface level overlook some things I said in older thread though I don't think every single word or example I used got into the page.
But the main basics between the differences is more about "Shared/connected systems" and other side convoluted topics such as a lot of "Consistently cliched weaknesses" (Especially durability dropping when distracted, or requiring excess amounts of energy control to properly use, or equating energy efficiency into the system) aren't really counterarguments against the concept about an energy system being outright universal. And also, it's common for energy systems to consist of multitudes of sub energy systems containing a combination of the 3 different types of systems but the end result is a 100% mastered incarnation of the parent energy system is universal in that regard. And there do exist characters who have multiple limited energy systems that get closer to non-physical energy systems with proper training as they trained to merge those limited ones or those limited energy systems were sub systems of the non-physical one, but it requires training for them all to link and become a mastered non-physical one. Likewise, it's also possible for a limited physical energy system to be one of those many sub energy systems of the same parent system, but mastering that suddenly adds it to the list of a once "So called Non-Physical Energy system" and actually turn it into a Universal energy system.
There are also do exist energy systems that technically qualify as each of the three, limited, non-physical, and then universal where it depends on the character on what level they reach. Or it starts out as a collection of lower levels, but more mastered training eventually gets a character to be qualify as a master of a universal energy system.
I also did bring up case by case in mind. It's technically possible for characters to have physical stats upscale from characters who are limited to using LES or NPES via tanking certain attacks and then trading physical blows with others. Some characters have superhuman stats despite physical abilities not lore wise being part of an energy system. Likewise, even ones that do fully qualify as UES can still have weaknesses and limitations. Some characters have a UES but haven't mastered every single technique in the art or have poor energy efficiency in some elements. Likewise, we also do not try to downscale casual attacks from super attacks that drain much larger levels of energy; especially suicide attacks. Some people have final attacks that require dumping every last bit of energy into a single attack and thus far stronger than typical punches and kicks, but that doesn't mean physical attacks aren't part of the same energy system that loses some not a little bit of energy. Also, things like "Taking 100 megatons of energy just to heal some basic wounds" is also not a counterargument for a UES, it just means healing arts are a convoluted weakness within the system in which most characters have exponentially low energy efficiency in that field. But does not go against the basic idea that it still qualifies as a UES for other reasons.
Anyway, I will let UchihaSlayer do most of the cooking for topics related to the verse; I am mostly focused on being one of the main contributors for the UES page and thus one of the main experts who'd know what would or wouldn't qualify for a UES (As opposed to a NPES or LES). But I have read parts of the old thread and based on a time I watched the series a long time ago, I can at least vouch some examples. Sakura and Tsunade are cases where it's definitely outright UES for them; the literally have excellent chakra control and can straight up precise them into pure strong punches. Even if they don't have the strongest chakra internally, they do have the strongest control/precision of it. And Naruto is the opposite where he has so much Chakra and so little control that he appears to be a clumsy character whose raw endurance overshadows that weakness of having over complicated chakra too great for his not so great mind to harness. He uses Rasengan and Sasuke or Kakashi use Chidori for their strikes. That's also in the realm of UES qualifications; and while there been cases where they severely hurt their hands trying to do techniques. The worst case scenario is a similar situation to Berserker Armor Guts, where he is a pseudo glass cannon where his striking strength does exceed his durability but not overwhelmingly so to the point of dropping multiple tiers.
I won't be making extensive arguments here, but I wanted to clarify a multitude of misconceptions with the basics of how to reach a UES. I do agree that some points where elemental attacks deplete a lot more energy than typical basic bunches and that some characters should perhaps be treated as glass cannons given how draining techniques are compared to Taijutsu abilities.
But the main basics between the differences is more about "Shared/connected systems" and other side convoluted topics such as a lot of "Consistently cliched weaknesses" (Especially durability dropping when distracted, or requiring excess amounts of energy control to properly use, or equating energy efficiency into the system) aren't really counterarguments against the concept about an energy system being outright universal. And also, it's common for energy systems to consist of multitudes of sub energy systems containing a combination of the 3 different types of systems but the end result is a 100% mastered incarnation of the parent energy system is universal in that regard. And there do exist characters who have multiple limited energy systems that get closer to non-physical energy systems with proper training as they trained to merge those limited ones or those limited energy systems were sub systems of the non-physical one, but it requires training for them all to link and become a mastered non-physical one. Likewise, it's also possible for a limited physical energy system to be one of those many sub energy systems of the same parent system, but mastering that suddenly adds it to the list of a once "So called Non-Physical Energy system" and actually turn it into a Universal energy system.
There are also do exist energy systems that technically qualify as each of the three, limited, non-physical, and then universal where it depends on the character on what level they reach. Or it starts out as a collection of lower levels, but more mastered training eventually gets a character to be qualify as a master of a universal energy system.
I also did bring up case by case in mind. It's technically possible for characters to have physical stats upscale from characters who are limited to using LES or NPES via tanking certain attacks and then trading physical blows with others. Some characters have superhuman stats despite physical abilities not lore wise being part of an energy system. Likewise, even ones that do fully qualify as UES can still have weaknesses and limitations. Some characters have a UES but haven't mastered every single technique in the art or have poor energy efficiency in some elements. Likewise, we also do not try to downscale casual attacks from super attacks that drain much larger levels of energy; especially suicide attacks. Some people have final attacks that require dumping every last bit of energy into a single attack and thus far stronger than typical punches and kicks, but that doesn't mean physical attacks aren't part of the same energy system that loses some not a little bit of energy. Also, things like "Taking 100 megatons of energy just to heal some basic wounds" is also not a counterargument for a UES, it just means healing arts are a convoluted weakness within the system in which most characters have exponentially low energy efficiency in that field. But does not go against the basic idea that it still qualifies as a UES for other reasons.
Anyway, I will let UchihaSlayer do most of the cooking for topics related to the verse; I am mostly focused on being one of the main contributors for the UES page and thus one of the main experts who'd know what would or wouldn't qualify for a UES (As opposed to a NPES or LES). But I have read parts of the old thread and based on a time I watched the series a long time ago, I can at least vouch some examples. Sakura and Tsunade are cases where it's definitely outright UES for them; the literally have excellent chakra control and can straight up precise them into pure strong punches. Even if they don't have the strongest chakra internally, they do have the strongest control/precision of it. And Naruto is the opposite where he has so much Chakra and so little control that he appears to be a clumsy character whose raw endurance overshadows that weakness of having over complicated chakra too great for his not so great mind to harness. He uses Rasengan and Sasuke or Kakashi use Chidori for their strikes. That's also in the realm of UES qualifications; and while there been cases where they severely hurt their hands trying to do techniques. The worst case scenario is a similar situation to Berserker Armor Guts, where he is a pseudo glass cannon where his striking strength does exceed his durability but not overwhelmingly so to the point of dropping multiple tiers.
I won't be making extensive arguments here, but I wanted to clarify a multitude of misconceptions with the basics of how to reach a UES. I do agree that some points where elemental attacks deplete a lot more energy than typical basic bunches and that some characters should perhaps be treated as glass cannons given how draining techniques are compared to Taijutsu abilities.
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had no idea saying someone got to be trolling is a big deal ? (I will stop that )"nawa oh" is a Nigerian slang for being shocked just incase u guys see it flying around and think it is just random nonsense
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had no idea saying someone got to be trolling is a big deal ? (I will stop that )"nawa oh" is a Nigerian slang for being shocked just incase u guys see it flying around and think it is just random nonse
yeah I sa
yeah already said no more trolling accusations
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I've fought this mf KT too many times, we've been in the trenches together for years. I just wanna be on the same side for once dammit!
You and KT in literally every Naruto thread
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- Thread starter
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Passerby, Testarossa002, Tomboy11, can yall stop?
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..that was my bad, i just saw the replies and replied out of habit, apologies
i will stop now
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He won’t comment later
I currently agree with KT's points; I however won't completely agree until further debate has occurred since not many arguments of the anti-side have been made.
I also like to address a misconception with KT's post, what's being argued here is about what we should presume true when dealing with cases where ambiguity exists. It's an argument about presumptions on singularities, not an argument about universal application. KT agrees there are absolutely cases where UES does exist within Naruto, and he's completely fine with scaling characters to their Ninjutsu when this occurs. He, however, doesn't agree we should assume UES exists in all instances shown; only when feats corroborate the assumption.
If we have an instance where a character who uses Ninjutsu of a certain potency but doesn't have feats of their physicals, when either enhanced or unenhanced, scaling to that level; we should presume that they don't because of an abundance of evidence showing that Ninjutsu, generally, doesn't scale to the physicals of the user, even when enhanced by Chakra.
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All these big words bro
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50¢ vocab words bubby
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I'm with DDM to a degree but also with KT.
The default assertion that everyone has UES is seems to wrong as the OP has shown. But certain characters either downscale or qualify for a UES type of scaling.
Personally in my mind most generic chakra moves would be Non-Physical, with certain special techniques being Limited and a rare handful of characters like So6P Madara or Kaguya having UES by evidence or at least scaling to techniques.
But imo we shouldn't default to assume every Ninja has an UES.
The default assertion that everyone has UES is seems to wrong as the OP has shown. But certain characters either downscale or qualify for a UES type of scaling.
Personally in my mind most generic chakra moves would be Non-Physical, with certain special techniques being Limited and a rare handful of characters like So6P Madara or Kaguya having UES by evidence or at least scaling to techniques.
But imo we shouldn't default to assume every Ninja has an UES.
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Well, here goes nuthin.
Watch this instead 
And as I told you before, you'll have my help in that regard should this go through.
That's what she said.
So, like, I get why you're "epically debunking" some of the things I wrote, but you gotta understand that they weren't made for the purpose of conforming to rules that simply didn't exist yet.
What was its purpose then? Quite simply, just to prove that chakra can be used to enhance a character's capabilities physically, which I feel like it achieved beyond a shadow of a doubt. To be honest, there are things I'd change in that blog at this point. I'm more knowledgeable than I was then, surprisingly, and there's a ton of stuff I'd add to it, but there's also a few things that I'd change, recontextualize, or outright remove.
Its purpose definitely wasn't to say that Ninja scale to any and all of their Ninjutsu no matter what. Hell, I had an entire section dedicated to that not being the case. I thought, and still do, it's a case by case thing for the most part. This is exactly why we don't scale people to all of their Jutsu universally, even now.
With all of that being said, I may voice disagreements with certain micro arguments below, but know this: I more or less agree with the conclusion drawn here.
What it comes down to for me is the idea that we need to prove that both chakra enhancement and Ninjutsu use the exact same quantity of chakra. That is a burden of proof that I don't believe we can meet. So if that criteria truly is a deal breaker for having a UES, then there's not much we can do.
I don't mean this in any negative way or as any sly remark, I promise, but I've read the rest of the OP and I firmly believe I can address most of the points below on their own. But within the context of the UES rules, I believe you're correct in your conclusion.
So yeah, that's that.
With all of that being said, I'll still make your life difficult and annoy you here kek.
No, obviously Itachi isn't exactly your average Ninja. There's a whole ass profile that's basically a monument I spent many hours dedicating to that very fact.
With that being said, let's also not pretend that 5 year old Itachi was some top tier. He only reached the level of a Chunin at 7 years old. Now, that is still extremely impressive obviously, but my point is that the Itachi who performed the feat isn't some Kage level character. Sure, people like BoS Naruto and Sasuke definitely shouldn't be held to the same standards, but any Chunin worth their salt, and certainly any Jonin should be able to replicate that feat. They already do it with their feet after all, which is more difficult than their arms as we know.
And again, the purpose of me including that example was "Oh yeah, so here's a clear as **** example of chakra enhancing physical abilities that everyone above a certain threshold should be able to reasonably replicate" as opposed to "oh so look here, everyone can punch with the power of any Jutsu".
Now, I know what you're gonna say. 'He didn't actually break through and his damn arm came off'. Yes, but you gotta realize that this was an Obito who was still getting acclimated to a whole ass new body, and wasn't completely in tune yet. This is why Zetsu said "you can't do it with that body yet". And this shit came out like 10 chapters after the Guy nonsense, so it's not like it's a random Boruto or novel feat lmao. My conclusion is Kishi was just being a goon.Cause like, this mfer just saw nukes being thrown around, deflected around, and a giant octopus bull monster physically level a forest, so it's a weird statement under just about any context.
And I'm not sure that this is a good point in general. You know full well that they don't need to show wide level destruction to scale to something in AP terms. Like I know for a fact that you believe in this concept, and I ain't gonna bring up whataboutisms, but like......yeah.
However, I will grant you that, yes, not all genin should be able to pull off some of the crazier physical feats, especially not BoS genin before they trained to master their chakra. At the same time, though, I don't see how it makes sense to limit the verse based on untrained genin. Like how are they a standard for everyone else, at all?
You're once again using the showings of genin who are still mastering these basic abilities and using it as a counter to other people, which makes zero sense. Like, the examples of Sakura and Sasuke somewhat struggling to use Shunshin make no sense to bring up. They just learned these techniques, so of course Kishimoto would put more of an emphasis on them. That in and of itself means nothing, because I can just as well bring up numerous instances of people effortlessly using Shunshin with no handsigns whatsover, same thing with tree climbing, water walking, and many more.
If your point is simply that genin shouldn't be granted the ability to casually use certain abilities, then that's more than fair. I don't disagree. But if you're attempting to use Genin to limit, idk, ******* Hagoromo, then that's where I take an issue.
Another thing. I feel like you're ignoring something important about Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is extremely varied, and produces a plethora of special effects that increase its "power". Like for example, you brought up the Rasengan. The Rasengan is especially powerful not just because of its chakra output (although that's certainly a factor, especially for the larger variants), but also due to the fact that the massive quantity of chakra is greatly condensed and then violently rotated. So when you get hit with a Rasenagn, it's not like simply getting hit with a powerful chakra fist; it literally shreds your ass inside out. Hell, we even know that this rotation also massively enhances its power. So my point is that the Rasengan isn't just a bunch of chakra being shot out, there's far more to the technique than that, and that could very well be what's responsible for its power and effectiveness.
Same really goes for most Jutsu. The Chidori is super lethal because of how it works. It's a massive amount of chakra being focused on a single point to DRAMATICALLY enhance cutting and piercing power. Adding to that the already impressive cutting properties of Raiton chakra, and it makes perfect sense why the Chidori is superior to a regular chakra enhanced punch.
The same principle can be applied to most Jutsu. Fire Style burns, Raiton electrocutes, Futon cuts, etc.
What I'm trying to say is that Ninjutsu's superiority over physicals is more nuanced and varied than just "they can output more chakra via Ninjutsu". Even if the output was exactly the same for both, Ninjutsu would still have the edge due to its variety, versatility, range, specialized effects, etc.
I know you're mostly trying to argue here that BoS Sasuke shouldn't scale to his Katon, and that's fine. But a few things to keep in mind.
1) Kakashi's statement doesn't limit post-training Sasuke, which the first key technically includes since it's Sasuke up until the FoD events. Meaning it's not strictly just Bell Test Sasuke.
2) The statement doesn't make much sense as a limiter to begin with because.......like, Kakashi was showing surprise for something that already took place. What I mean is, "he shouldn't be able to do this", but he just did. So clearly whatever arbitrary standard Kakashi was referring to doesn't even apply to Sasuke here.
3) We mainly decided to use the Fireball for scaling because it was super close to his 12 tons bear feat from the FoD, which was performed casually, so it's not like it was inconsistent or illogical.
See, we're not so different you and I.
The CST is a technique that works in its own unique way. It's a technique that dramatically increases the power and range of ST, in exchange for ridiculous chakra expenditure, which shortens his lifespan. It's exactly an "average" technique. We know this because he throws STs around like it's nothing. People on his level take them sometimes, and even Pain himself. It's normally above their physicals, that's true, but not by a whole lot. Even the massive one that broke Gamabunta didn't take as much out of him. CST is just in a league of its own.
As for CT, you know we don't scale Pain to it anyway, but it's also important to note that he probably only felt it to such a dramatic extent because he'd already used something as draining as the CST not too long before. So yeah.
In a similar vein to how we can't necessarily prove that chakra enhancement and Ninjutsu use the same quantity of chakra inherently (and this is the main reason for me agreeing with the proposal, just to be clear), I'm not sure that you've proven the opposite is true. I didn't see any conclusive proof that Ninjutsu utilizes more chakra amounts. You've proven that Ninjutsu can output more power in many cases, which was never really in doubt, but I believe that more often than not the increased power. output, effectiveness, etc can be attributed to a very clear specialized effect that the technique possesses as I previously explained.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you've dwelled a lot on clear and discernable ways that chakra enhances physicals, such as Chakra Modes, Chakra being focused in limbs à la Tsunade and Sakura, etc. This is one thing, but another is the fact that chakra enhancement is often not really visible, as it's simply achieved through more (or stronger) chakra simply coursing through a Ninja's Keirakukei.
Now, we have a metric shit ton of examples for this.
We see it with Kurama's chakra (yes, I know that the chakra oozes out due to its great amount, but that's just how Kurama's chakra always is. It always created that sort of aura type deal, but it's not like Naruto is focusing it in certain limbs, it's just coursing through him like normal chakra would).
We see it with the Curse Mark.
We see it with Sage Mode, in that we know for a fact that it enhances all physical facets such as their durability[63], power[64], speed and reflexes[65], and lifting strength[66], and it does so simply by adding NE to their pre-existing chakra, which creates a larger and more powerful chakra. But in essence, it's really no different than regular chakra in practice.
We see it with Kaguya, twice. How so? Well, the first time was when she initially revived. She absorbed a shit ton more chakra from the IT victims into Madara's body, which resulted in her being far more powerful than Madara. The second time was right before she created the ETSB. She absorbed a lot more chakra, resulting in a significant increase to her physical abilities. In both those instances, it's not about her focusing chakra in certain points of her body, but rather just having a ton more chakra flowing through her.
SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are the same, really. They're infinitely superior to their pre-Hags self, and all we really see is SPC flowing through them.
I can bring up more examples, but it'd just be a waste of time. Everyone here gets the point by now, I hope.
And, just to be clear, no I'm not denying that people can focus chakra into certain areas of their bodies to enhance them in some way. Both things exist, both are valid. Focusing chakra into a focal point just further enhances it, that's all.
So, in the end, I suppose I agree with a lot of the points made, and with the conclusion itself based on our standards, but I also disagree with a lot of the individual points made. I guess that doesn't matter all that much in the end, but I had to express my full assessment to the best of my abilities, because people expect it of me at this point.
And that's it. Nice thread overall, good job on your research.
Is KT going to regret this?!?! Find out next time on. Dragon. BallZ.
I already told you this in private, but I think it's admirable that you're "taking responsibility" for implementing such a big change. Respect.
And as I told you before, you'll have my help in that regard should this go through.
I read the page carefully for this, and nothing in here seems wrong to me. So, yeah, that's indeed that. I think we ought to ping a few "UES experts" for this btw, if there is such a thing. I feel like their insights would be valuable.
Well, I don't really think this is relevant because the "different types of chakra" if you will function in the same way. They're all chakra at the end of the day. Obviously Senjutsu chakra and SPC are more "potent" or whatever, and are usually stronger because they're used as amps over a character's regular chakra most of the time, but it's not like they inherently function any differently to regular old chakra once they're acquired. In fact, if anything's inherently different about them, it's the way they're acquired/mastered that's unique, but in terms of practical function they're not really any different once you have them. I understand that they also offer different perks and abilities from regular chakra, but that's not what I'm talking about. For the purposes of the UES page, they function in the exact same way, mechanically.
Just want to point something out that I feel absolutely everyone in this community has sorely missed. My thread/blog was not made with the purpose of making Chakra a UES. It certainly wasn't made with our UES standards in mind. Why? Well, because they literally didn't exist at the time. We didn't have that page as of yet. I mean, there were "unspoken rules", I guess, but it's not like there was anything concrete; certainly nothing as detailed or as restrictive as we have now.
So, like, I get why you're "epically debunking" some of the things I wrote, but you gotta understand that they weren't made for the purpose of conforming to rules that simply didn't exist yet.
What was its purpose then? Quite simply, just to prove that chakra can be used to enhance a character's capabilities physically, which I feel like it achieved beyond a shadow of a doubt. To be honest, there are things I'd change in that blog at this point. I'm more knowledgeable than I was then, surprisingly, and there's a ton of stuff I'd add to it, but there's also a few things that I'd change, recontextualize, or outright remove.
Its purpose definitely wasn't to say that Ninja scale to any and all of their Ninjutsu no matter what. Hell, I had an entire section dedicated to that not being the case. I thought, and still do, it's a case by case thing for the most part. This is exactly why we don't scale people to all of their Jutsu universally, even now.
With all of that being said, I may voice disagreements with certain micro arguments below, but know this: I more or less agree with the conclusion drawn here.
What it comes down to for me is the idea that we need to prove that both chakra enhancement and Ninjutsu use the exact same quantity of chakra. That is a burden of proof that I don't believe we can meet. So if that criteria truly is a deal breaker for having a UES, then there's not much we can do.
I don't mean this in any negative way or as any sly remark, I promise, but I've read the rest of the OP and I firmly believe I can address most of the points below on their own. But within the context of the UES rules, I believe you're correct in your conclusion.
So yeah, that's that.
I mean, yeah. This is all pretty on point. No complaints from me.
Well, a couple of things I wanna mention here.
No, obviously Itachi isn't exactly your average Ninja. There's a whole ass profile that's basically a monument I spent many hours dedicating to that very fact.
With that being said, let's also not pretend that 5 year old Itachi was some top tier. He only reached the level of a Chunin at 7 years old. Now, that is still extremely impressive obviously, but my point is that the Itachi who performed the feat isn't some Kage level character. Sure, people like BoS Naruto and Sasuke definitely shouldn't be held to the same standards, but any Chunin worth their salt, and certainly any Jonin should be able to replicate that feat. They already do it with their feet after all, which is more difficult than their arms as we know.
And again, the purpose of me including that example was "Oh yeah, so here's a clear as **** example of chakra enhancing physical abilities that everyone above a certain threshold should be able to reasonably replicate" as opposed to "oh so look here, everyone can punch with the power of any Jutsu".
I think you're being a bit ridiculous here. Do I really need to explain to you why a "faint blue flame" isn't quite on the same level as a ******* Chidori? Of course Sakura would be ******** herself at the sight of an A rank Ninjutsu that concentrates so much chakra into a single point. That's what makes the Chidori so damn powerful. They're similar concepts, but obviously the Chidori is a MUCH higher level.
Are you actually serious here? Cause Sakura's feat is like a million times more impressive than Itachi's, so putting them on the same pedestal just seems weird to me. Same technique, very different level of proficiency.
Look, we both know this is a goon example of Kishi just being weird, cause Obito's the same dude who did this as a kid.
Now, I know what you're gonna say. 'He didn't actually break through and his damn arm came off'. Yes, but you gotta realize that this was an Obito who was still getting acclimated to a whole ass new body, and wasn't completely in tune yet. This is why Zetsu said "you can't do it with that body yet". And this shit came out like 10 chapters after the Guy nonsense, so it's not like it's a random Boruto or novel feat lmao. My conclusion is Kishi was just being a goon.
For the love of god, it's not a Sakura level feat
And I'm not sure that this is a good point in general. You know full well that they don't need to show wide level destruction to scale to something in AP terms. Like I know for a fact that you believe in this concept, and I ain't gonna bring up whataboutisms, but like......yeah.
However, I will grant you that, yes, not all genin should be able to pull off some of the crazier physical feats, especially not BoS genin before they trained to master their chakra. At the same time, though, I don't see how it makes sense to limit the verse based on untrained genin. Like how are they a standard for everyone else, at all?
The novel doesn't really contradict anything.
Well, again, a few things I take minor issue with here.
You're once again using the showings of genin who are still mastering these basic abilities and using it as a counter to other people, which makes zero sense. Like, the examples of Sakura and Sasuke somewhat struggling to use Shunshin make no sense to bring up. They just learned these techniques, so of course Kishimoto would put more of an emphasis on them. That in and of itself means nothing, because I can just as well bring up numerous instances of people effortlessly using Shunshin with no handsigns whatsover, same thing with tree climbing, water walking, and many more.
If your point is simply that genin shouldn't be granted the ability to casually use certain abilities, then that's more than fair. I don't disagree. But if you're attempting to use Genin to limit, idk, ******* Hagoromo, then that's where I take an issue.
Another thing. I feel like you're ignoring something important about Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is extremely varied, and produces a plethora of special effects that increase its "power". Like for example, you brought up the Rasengan. The Rasengan is especially powerful not just because of its chakra output (although that's certainly a factor, especially for the larger variants), but also due to the fact that the massive quantity of chakra is greatly condensed and then violently rotated. So when you get hit with a Rasenagn, it's not like simply getting hit with a powerful chakra fist; it literally shreds your ass inside out. Hell, we even know that this rotation also massively enhances its power. So my point is that the Rasengan isn't just a bunch of chakra being shot out, there's far more to the technique than that, and that could very well be what's responsible for its power and effectiveness.
Same really goes for most Jutsu. The Chidori is super lethal because of how it works. It's a massive amount of chakra being focused on a single point to DRAMATICALLY enhance cutting and piercing power. Adding to that the already impressive cutting properties of Raiton chakra, and it makes perfect sense why the Chidori is superior to a regular chakra enhanced punch.
The same principle can be applied to most Jutsu. Fire Style burns, Raiton electrocutes, Futon cuts, etc.
What I'm trying to say is that Ninjutsu's superiority over physicals is more nuanced and varied than just "they can output more chakra via Ninjutsu". Even if the output was exactly the same for both, Ninjutsu would still have the edge due to its variety, versatility, range, specialized effects, etc.
I know you're mostly trying to argue here that BoS Sasuke shouldn't scale to his Katon, and that's fine. But a few things to keep in mind.
1) Kakashi's statement doesn't limit post-training Sasuke, which the first key technically includes since it's Sasuke up until the FoD events. Meaning it's not strictly just Bell Test Sasuke.
2) The statement doesn't make much sense as a limiter to begin with because.......like, Kakashi was showing surprise for something that already took place. What I mean is, "he shouldn't be able to do this", but he just did. So clearly whatever arbitrary standard Kakashi was referring to doesn't even apply to Sasuke here.
3) We mainly decided to use the Fireball for scaling because it was super close to his 12 tons bear feat from the FoD, which was performed casually, so it's not like it was inconsistent or illogical.
I'm glad you brought all of this up because that's more or less what I was talking about earlier. It's all true, but that's just it. We already take this into account. We don't usually scale a character's regular stats to their "specialized Ninjutsu" unless they have the feats for it. Base Kakuzu doesn't scale in dura to his Iron Spear. Sasuke's punches don't scale to his chidori. Gaara doesn't physically scale to his Sand. Roshi's base doesn't scale to LCM. And so on and so forth. So we agree completely on this point, it's just......already a thing.
Yeah, sure. My thoughts on this are pretty much same as the above.
Indeed. That it does.
Well, as I've said earlier, Rasengan is more than just raw chakra. There's the rotations, there's apparently the heat in this instance. And Naruto is still learning this ability here, so I don't even see the point of bringing up this point when nothing like this ever happened again. And, like, I can also bring up moments where people eat Rasengans for lunch, so like, this point kinda means nothing.
"Injured" is a bit much don't you think? The dude was barely scuffed lol. Like, an attack comparable to oneself having an effect on you isn't an anti-feat for anything, or else comparable characters wouldn't be able to harm each other at all. It's even how it works in real life. You can eat a lot of punches from someone, but sometimes similar level punches can hurt you bad, or even put your lights out.
Well, that harkens us back to the whole "specialized" effect associated with certain techniques. In this case, the Raikage's Hell Stab is a technique that increases its piercing power dramatically the less fingers he uses for it, because the focal point where his chakra is focused keeps getting smaller. It's just a byproduct of how the technique works, rather than any real commentary on Jutsu vs Physicals. This is especially true because the Raikage isn't just amping his dura with chakra normally, he also has an outer layer of armor with RCM. It's simply that the gradual increase in piercing power far outdid the layer of protective armor. It's like a Chidori on crack.
Well, again, "hurt" is a bit much. And again, being affected by an attack on your level isn't an anti-feat, or else comparable characters wouldn't be able to do anything against each other and would just face tank everything.
We didn't really see these kills in action, so I can't really say much about them. I'll grant you this one, I guess.
Context, KT.
The CST is a technique that works in its own unique way. It's a technique that dramatically increases the power and range of ST, in exchange for ridiculous chakra expenditure, which shortens his lifespan. It's exactly an "average" technique. We know this because he throws STs around like it's nothing. People on his level take them sometimes, and even Pain himself. It's normally above their physicals, that's true, but not by a whole lot. Even the massive one that broke Gamabunta didn't take as much out of him. CST is just in a league of its own.
As for CT, you know we don't scale Pain to it anyway, but it's also important to note that he probably only felt it to such a dramatic extent because he'd already used something as draining as the CST not too long before. So yeah.
I think it's pretty clear that they put just about everything they had into these two attacks, so like, yeah lol.
I'm ngl KT, this is a shit point. 'Cause like, I can bring up just as many instances of people physically contending with or withstanding Ninjutsu. You can bring forth more examples, too. But that's just it, we can keep playing this game, and it wouldn't really prove any real point, inherently.
Okay, so before I close out my post, I wanna mention a couple of things.
In a similar vein to how we can't necessarily prove that chakra enhancement and Ninjutsu use the same quantity of chakra inherently (and this is the main reason for me agreeing with the proposal, just to be clear), I'm not sure that you've proven the opposite is true. I didn't see any conclusive proof that Ninjutsu utilizes more chakra amounts. You've proven that Ninjutsu can output more power in many cases, which was never really in doubt, but I believe that more often than not the increased power. output, effectiveness, etc can be attributed to a very clear specialized effect that the technique possesses as I previously explained.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you've dwelled a lot on clear and discernable ways that chakra enhances physicals, such as Chakra Modes, Chakra being focused in limbs à la Tsunade and Sakura, etc. This is one thing, but another is the fact that chakra enhancement is often not really visible, as it's simply achieved through more (or stronger) chakra simply coursing through a Ninja's Keirakukei.
Now, we have a metric shit ton of examples for this.
We see it with Kurama's chakra (yes, I know that the chakra oozes out due to its great amount, but that's just how Kurama's chakra always is. It always created that sort of aura type deal, but it's not like Naruto is focusing it in certain limbs, it's just coursing through him like normal chakra would).
We see it with the Curse Mark.
We see it with Sage Mode, in that we know for a fact that it enhances all physical facets such as their durability[63], power[64], speed and reflexes[65], and lifting strength[66], and it does so simply by adding NE to their pre-existing chakra, which creates a larger and more powerful chakra. But in essence, it's really no different than regular chakra in practice.
We see it with Kaguya, twice. How so? Well, the first time was when she initially revived. She absorbed a shit ton more chakra from the IT victims into Madara's body, which resulted in her being far more powerful than Madara. The second time was right before she created the ETSB. She absorbed a lot more chakra, resulting in a significant increase to her physical abilities. In both those instances, it's not about her focusing chakra in certain points of her body, but rather just having a ton more chakra flowing through her.
SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are the same, really. They're infinitely superior to their pre-Hags self, and all we really see is SPC flowing through them.
I can bring up more examples, but it'd just be a waste of time. Everyone here gets the point by now, I hope.
And, just to be clear, no I'm not denying that people can focus chakra into certain areas of their bodies to enhance them in some way. Both things exist, both are valid. Focusing chakra into a focal point just further enhances it, that's all.
So, in the end, I suppose I agree with a lot of the points made, and with the conclusion itself based on our standards, but I also disagree with a lot of the individual points made. I guess that doesn't matter all that much in the end, but I had to express my full assessment to the best of my abilities, because people expect it of me at this point.
And that's it. Nice thread overall, good job on your research.
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I agree with UchihaSlayer96's take on this.
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I generally agree with this after read it, though UchihaSlayer brings up some good counter responses which I've only skimmed over and need to read fully
My thoughts are ninjutsu is generally above physicals, as in it can generate energy which one cannot generate with merely a punch, it's similar to Seven Deadly Sins.
In Seven Deadly Sins, one can only output a specific amount of energy with their fist, like say your energy is an ocean, with your fist you can output a cups full of that energy, however with a good weapon you can output massive amounts of that energy, analogously you can output huge swathes of the ocean.
In this example, ninjutsu would be that weapon generally speaking.
But with ninjutsu it isn't merely the energy outputting but also the shape of the energy as well as its nature amongst other things which makes it more effective.
Perhaps chakra enhanced strength and perhaps chakra cloaks are the outliers to this rule.
My thoughts are ninjutsu is generally above physicals, as in it can generate energy which one cannot generate with merely a punch, it's similar to Seven Deadly Sins.
In Seven Deadly Sins, one can only output a specific amount of energy with their fist, like say your energy is an ocean, with your fist you can output a cups full of that energy, however with a good weapon you can output massive amounts of that energy, analogously you can output huge swathes of the ocean.
In this example, ninjutsu would be that weapon generally speaking.
But with ninjutsu it isn't merely the energy outputting but also the shape of the energy as well as its nature amongst other things which makes it more effective.
Perhaps chakra enhanced strength and perhaps chakra cloaks are the outliers to this rule.
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Tbh I always thought we treated it on case by case bases already. Aside from six path characters who show good relativity of their physicals to their justu and exceptions like sakura and tsunade most characters ninjustu scale above their physicals already.
To my best of knowledge both madara and hashirama are both just island level physically and all the way to large country level with justu.
Shikamaru was also not given planetary ap with physicals just coz his justu could do it.
Sasuke at the point of fighting itachi was still just mountain level and only island level with kirin.
There are so many other characters like this and I can go on.
The only people that their ninjustu were always scalled or at least downscaled to their physicals were very high tiers like sasuke, naruto, jigen and they all have showings for even tanking the said ninjustu. Hell naruto blasted through some with his fists.
So it's not like we just assume that ninjustu scales to physicals by default
To my best of knowledge both madara and hashirama are both just island level physically and all the way to large country level with justu.
Shikamaru was also not given planetary ap with physicals just coz his justu could do it.
Sasuke at the point of fighting itachi was still just mountain level and only island level with kirin.
There are so many other characters like this and I can go on.
The only people that their ninjustu were always scalled or at least downscaled to their physicals were very high tiers like sasuke, naruto, jigen and they all have showings for even tanking the said ninjustu. Hell naruto blasted through some with his fists.
So it's not like we just assume that ninjustu scales to physicals by default
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While you're mostly correct, all the 7-B/7-A/High 7-A and 8-B/8-B+/8-A characters scale based on Ninjutsu, pretty much exclusively. Both scale from a fireball fired by Sasuke, funnily enough lol. Now, that's A LOT of characters if you actually go and count them. It might be dozens of profiles.
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The physical tiers are based on prior cases of ninjutsu scaling to physicals which is the very thing under contention
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If t
But for people like Lee who base solely on taijustu it should make more sense that he should at least scale to sasuke ninjustu
If that's the case then there should be better justification. I don't think the sasuke who had not fully mastered chakra control as a genin should have this scale to his physicals.
But for people like Lee who base solely on taijustu it should make more sense that he should at least scale to sasuke ninjustu
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No it is not..most of the time characters actually tank said ninjustu physically so it would make sense their striking strength scales to this. For example killer bee is not scalled to his bijuu bomb. He Is just "island level" and country level with bijuu bomb. I guess some part 1 characters have this flaw but most part 2 characters don't
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Can you give me some examples based on the profiles, like the early Shippuden 7-B characters.
Killer Bee's 7-A might also be based on ninjutsu scaling in the first place.
Not to mention all the 6-C characters scaled to Biju physically based on their ninjutsu being able to affect Biju.
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7-B, 7-A, and High 7-A all come from the same thing: Hebi Sasuke's Katon.
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You can't be asking me for what you are arguing against.
Most of the 6c characters don't scale to biju just coz their ninjustu work, the scale to each other a lot. Raikage actual taijustu scales to bijuu, there are some other examples there.
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Uchihaslayer already made mention of this already. The early Sasuke fireball thing and I said this can be fixed and there should be proper justification . But most of the stuff above and beyond are not just "oh their ninjutsu did this so they can kick this much".
Naruto literally slapped away 5 bijuu bombs and his avatar was scaled from there. 10 tails tanked it's own bijuu. So many examples like that. This is starting to get derailing let's stop
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Yes I can, you're saying that these characters are tanking their own ninjutsu, where?
As far as I recall, no one tanks Sasuke's fire release. Itachi's arm got burnt via just it brushing it.
Ok, but besides characters like A or Tsunade, basically none of these characters physically scale to Biju. Not Mei, not Ohnoki, not Rasa, none of the old Kage barring A3.
Rasa explicitly takes advantage of the fact that Shukaku is made out of sand and mixes gold dust into his sand body to counter him.
In fact, A3's feat of physically boxing with a Biju is exceptional compared to everyone else.
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Guys, we're derailing at this point. This thread has one aim, which is to change chakra from a UES to a LES/NPES. Alternative scaling and justifications will have to be handled in another thread.
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I'd agree with this.
I'm undecided on this point with Itachi because what he does is eerily similar to chakra enhanced strength which is something restricted to only people very talented with chakra control which actually involves maximising all of your chakra in one attack.
So whilst I don't think it should be restricted to just Itachi, I'm unsure of who would actually scale to it. CES seems to be quite special and specific to Tsunade and Sakura in terms of destructive power, their ability to casually shatter rock with their fists is treated as monstrous, abnormal, and terrifying on average, not something which is the norm (this gag is hilarious)
The average chunin? Sasuke's chidori when he was around chunin-tier seemed to be on that level of "shattering boulders and rock", the one Itachi completely shattered being larger than a few people, and his chidori is not something even many jonin can replicate. It was a narrative parallel with Guy teaching Lee the Gates, something not even Kakashi can do, after all.
An amazing feat, using chidori, according to Kakashi, definitely not something even the average jonin can do.
Of course I think that many characters can shatter rock even without efficient chakra enhanced strength, but I'm not sure where to place Itachi's feat and how that relates to chakra enhanced strength for everyone else.
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Yes that’s pretty much how those who don’t know how to perfectly utilize chakra control goes. Those that can wield chakra relies on their own chakra to make ninjutsu’s which is their own of “physical attack” (not literally but u get the point). Kishimoto made it obvious that those who just physically attack are meant to be as strong as those who do ninjutsu. It’s pretty obvious that if let’s say everyone could have perfect chakra control, u would see how strong a ninja is easily because of the aomount of chakra they wield
Then ya got “well if that’s the case then Kid Naruto could take on Kakashi” well…..no cause ya have the anime troupe of the older yet get, the stronger u become and also Kid Naruto has shit chakra control and even if he somehow could have average chakra control, Kakashi experience would had still destroyed him + we have kids in the ninja world that can apparently be considered Chunin or Jonin lvl
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Oof
Bump
Bump
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I agree with UchihaSlayer that the end goal result is that at the end core, Chakra is outright Universal. Which means characters who truly mastered Chakra control clearly utilize it as Universal outright. Though for characters like Gaara, it's more so Non-Physical since it's for his Sand style jutsu's AP and the durability of his forcefields. And other Shinobi have only ever been trained to use their Chakra for elemental Ninjutsu and Genjutsu when Taijutsu power or close quarters Ninjutsu strikes are lacking.
But he is still right with the end goal premise. The system itself is fine to be described as Universal, but just not every character who uses Chakra is adept as using it as one. Which a new thread should preferably be made to address what characters lack the justifications for full Universal scaling.
But he is still right with the end goal premise. The system itself is fine to be described as Universal, but just not every character who uses Chakra is adept as using it as one. Which a new thread should preferably be made to address what characters lack the justifications for full Universal scaling.
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Still mostly agree with KingTempest
Chakra does amplify statistics not it's not one to one, though it's more debatable when it comes to chakra cloaks and very high level chakra enhanced strength.
If universal means it's one to one, i.e Naruto's punches scale to his rasenshuriken, then it's not universal.
Chakra does amplify statistics not it's not one to one, though it's more debatable when it comes to chakra cloaks and very high level chakra enhanced strength.
If universal means it's one to one, i.e Naruto's punches scale to his rasenshuriken, then it's not universal.
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This isn't really fully true.
The goal of chakra control is to use ninjutsu at max efficiency, aka hand seals and chakra efficiency, not to muster the max amount of energy in their limbs. They never even reference that tbh. In fact US didn't even mention chakra control.
If their chakra control increased, then they would just end up putting more chakra in their ninjutsu, making the gap even wider.
I won't tackle US's points overall because his main claim was that "I agree that it's not a UES, but some of your points are flat out invalid", which is fine. But the issue is that he noted that it can't be proven they use the same amount of chakra.
Also
Yes
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It doesn't quite have to be one to one to qualify for Universal (Otherwise, even casual punches scaling from final attacks that drain most of their lifeforce and/or scale from suicide attacks would be a thing). We often times keep final attacks as giving a rating based on that one attack for various reasons. It's more so physical empowerment or energy where all superhuman physical characteristics come from need to have a shared system with various supernatural attacks. Or even two or more sub energy systems being part of an energy system that happens to include one of them being physical is enough in which it can reach universal status in verse with proper training.
Well, that's a different issue entirely. I already talked about the difference between a counter argument against UES and more so just it's one from a verse where most characters aren't possessing 100% energy efficiency in every style of martial arts. People like that exist IRL, person A can be better at delivering roundhouse kick but have a weak axe kick. Likewise, some people have strong axe kicks but weak front kicks. Naruto characters excelling at Ninjutsu but lacking Taijutsu and vice versa is something what Naruto treats the difference.
I'm aware US made the thread before the page exists and that there are some limits/weaknesses where it doesn't behave like a full fledged UES for everyone who uses it. And of course, some characters should have SS ratings downgraded if there is a lack of reason for their Taijutsu abilities to downscale from their Ninjutsu powers. I'm also aware of case by case in mind as I said above. But I am still standing my word that I am one of the main creators of the UES page so logically I should be considered one of the main experts on the concepts that I'm trying to clarify.
I'm also aware of what the goal of Ninjutsu is, Chakra Control is their way of saying energy efficiency. Back when Naruto had shit tier Chakra Control, it depleted twice as much Chakra to produce a single clone that Sakura or Sasuke would to produce 4 of them. Since his energy efficiency for the technique was less than 10% thus what can cause people to deplete more than 100 Megatons work of energy for an attack that isn't even supposed to be 10 Megatons. But Chakra Control is suppose to enable using 100 Megatons means an attack that's exactly that is an end goal result yes. And very few Shinobi master it that well, but doesn't take away the concept of a system. Not being one to one is more so due to lack of mastery or techniques just requiring special prerequisites and not counter arguments against physicals overall being shared energy systems with those supernatural powers and what not.
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I agree with DarkDragonMedeus and Uchihaslayer. It seems like Chakra Control allows for it to qualify for UES, if I understand DDM’s comments correctly, but as not all characters are proficient enough in it, comparable to others, it would be a Case by Case situation.
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@UchihaSlayer96 isn't even saying this. He specifically agreed with me that it doesn't qualify
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“if I understand DDM’s comments correctly”
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