Human Statistics Scaling Standards in Fiction (Staff Only)

[LordGriffin1000]

It's a rarity for me to make a staff discussion thread but I thought this was worth the discussion.

This is a staff only, if non staff members wish to comment, please ask permission from an administrator or thread moderator.

Premise
The premise of this thread is pretty simple, I want to discuss how we rate "humans" in fiction when it involves high tier scaling. Now when I say "human", I mean characters who in verse are considered like real life humans in at least some capacity and have no noticeable special power. So this excludes humans from verses like Dragon Ball, Naruto and so on, so if you are reading this thread and think it's referring to them and those are the only ones you care about, it's not about them and you don't need to bother reading further as any verse with an energy system of any kind is exempt from this thread.

The Problem
To get everyone up to speed and on the same page, I'll be using the verse that brought about the reason for me making this thread in the first place, Danny Phantom. To keep it short and simple, Danny Phantom is a verse that consists of both humans and ghosts. The ghosts usually provide the feats and in the past I've made many threads that showed how specific humans (ghost hunters) scaled to them (here is one for reference). Basically, anytime the ghosts tier change, the human ghost hunters follow suit. No one really complained when they were tier 8, 7 or 6, the last one was surprising but not main problems occurred. However, then tier 4 and eventual tier 2 feats came to light and that's when the problem really arose. The arguments were all the same, "they are human" or "Danny and his friends are weak nerds who get shoved into lockers". Now as you can see, the arguments aren't good because they'd apply even for tier 8 humans, the literal core argument is "they are human so they can't be that strong" which is effectively saying "humans" can't get that strong but that applies to anything tier 9-A and up.

So because people could only complain and not make threads, I once again made a thread discussing humans scaling to ghosts via feats and statements. I even created an entire blog detailing their feats and anti-feats, designed to showcase specific humans in the verse are superhuman and there are some that scale to ghosts in strength, speed and durability. The feats and statements outweighed the anti-feats by a decent amount however that didn't matter because the same main argument was applied "they are seen as human" and "they are weak humans". But then two new arguments were brought forth and it was mentioned that since all those feats involved humans scaling to the ghosts and not the humans doing the feats themselves, it diminished them as evidence. Then when it's mentioned that humans from the original universe split the universe into what it currently is due to the war with each other. However the fallacy was used that "ancient humans are generally treated stronger than current day humans". This is never stated in Danny Phantom so it's basing it of how other verses treat past humans as stronger than current humans so it applies to Danny Phantom...

Now this doesn't work on multiple levels but I accepted it and the end result was that the humans in Danny Phantom despite the overwhelming showings and statements no longer scale to ghosts physically unless equipment is used thus they could only scale to their own feats (Tier 9-C to 9-B). So this shows there is an standard but it's not mentioned anywhere as far as I know.

Another Example

I don't like using other verses as an example especially ones I don't know but since this is a general thread, we can talk about Pokemon humans. So, the trainers scale to Tier 9 via their own stuff iirc and don't have a noticeable universal energy system, but when you look at their speed, the reactions for high tier trainers are literally FTL / Massively FTL+ to Infinite via scaling to their pokemon (example Ash Ketchum). So, we do have human statistics rated far beyond what a "human" is capable of literally by an infinite amount, is it because it's only speed? Which I think is fine if it's consistent and they got the scaling then that's just how the verse treats it but we need a standard otherwise it could eventually lead to confusion on when we draw the line.

Suggestion

So no one fumbles as big as I did when scaling humans to superhuman entities, I think a page or blog should be made that provides a standard on what is acceptable for "humans" to scale too. I'll use Danny Phantom as a basis on what wasn't enough...

1. Several humans have shown superhuman feats that exceeded that of a normal human.

2. Several humans have a large number of scaling feats to ghosts that exceed their anti-feats.

3. Humans possess a universal energy system (albeit they don't use it to fire energy beams or anything like that)

4. Past humans performed a Tier 2 Feat and have a universal energy system.

5. Ghosts have shown to gain large amounts of strength from certain human genetic strength that they themselves admit they want.

6. Certain humans are literally stated to train to fight ghosts in physical conflict.

Despite all of the above, this was not enough to overcome the fact that they are humans and the ghosts that these specific humans are trying to scale too are Tier 2. So below is my suggestion on what a page/blog should look like...

Spoiler

Fictional Human Scaling

Throughout fiction, humans have shown various levels of power that usually exceeds the power of that of real life humans. Generally, certain humans in most works reach into the range street level, wall level and even building level. However, in many other cases, humans have far exceeded these levels and thus a certain amount of evidence is required when such situations arise. Please note that this only applies to verses with humans that do not possess a stated energy system like those explained in our Universal Energy Systems page. Thus, verses such as Dragon Ball, Naruto and any other verse that uses and energy system that actively is shown to enhance the capabilities of the humans within said verse affected by this.

Supporting Evidence

Below is a list of evidence types that can be used to suggest the humans or a select number of humans within a verse scale to a value that is far beyond the capabilities of what an actual human would logically be capable of.

* Feats: The most direct proof for showing they are above the normal human level is them having their own feats on the level being suggested. For example, if attempting to upgrade humans to Tier 8, they would need feats of destroying an entire building with an attack and so on. Please note that more feats would be needed when aiming for higher tiers like any other scaling attempt.

* Power Scaling: These feats involve said human characters who don't have their own feats, scaling specifically to an entity who has preformed said feat to reach a specific level. Please note that this type of evidence eventually has it's limits, for example, a character with 20 scaling feats wouldn't be much different from a character with a 50 scaling feats. The number of scaling feats only matter depending on the tier in which the character is being scaled too.

* Statements: Statements from reliable sources can also be used. However like with the previous examples, statements can only get one so far before more types of evidence is required. For example, a few statements that suggest humans are Building level or Mountain level are good but even a large number of statements wouldn't be too helpful if one was trying to argue about humans being Planet level or above.

It's important to note that just because one verse has humans that are a certain level due to specific reasons, it doesn't mean another verse should have their humans at that same level. Verses will be judged by their own feats and anti-feats accordingly.

Acceptable Case Examples

* Danganronpa: Despite the lack of energy systems in the series, humans have consistently showcased feats that are far above the real-life ones, with the most powerful ones such as Sakura Ogami or Genocider Syo showcasing to be comparable to beings such as Monokuma or his variants, with said scaling being backed from the fact that even regular humans in the series (such as Makoto Naegi or Teruteru Hanamura), or characters physically much stronger than them (like Takumi Hijirihara or Nekomaru Nidai) have multiple Tier 9 to 8 feats.

Unacceptable Case Examples

* Danny Phantom: Despite the large number of scaling feats and feats (that exceed their anti-feats), statements, and universal energy system, the Danny Phantom human scaling to ghosts is currently not accepted. The Ghosts are simply rated too high (Tier 2) and while the humans anti-feats are lower in quantity than their normal feats, they have statements that would suggest they are weak and around closer to the level of ordinary humans. Thus, we only scale them to their own feats.

Anyway, that's about it. I'd like to hear thoughts from other staff members. Should we set standards for verses that have "humans" consistently scaling to incredibly powerful entities? Remember, this is a staff only, if non staff members wish to comment, please ask permission from an administrator or thread moderator.

Agree with page or blog:

Disagree, not notable enough:

Neutral, I don't deal in verses with "humans": 1(DarkDragonMedus (Thinks its worth discussion),

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, got permission to post by the OP (thanks LordGriffin, BTW!)

Anyways, I'd think the proposed standards by the OP could use more valid unacceptable cases, especially given nothing that was a proper standard (as in, written somewhere as such) was really used to treat Danny Phantom characters like that, and thus them being an invalid case is up to debate, especially given that I recall we do give more priority to feats than statements, and if the arguments for limiting humans in that verse to tier 9 boils down to just them being called humans in spite of how they're treated in general, well, it's a quite poor argument and could easily lead to double standards ironically, I'd advocate for them being rated that high, but that'd be a topic for another thread.

It really seems the only difference between DP and Pokemon on this regard is that in Pokemon the characters in question do have the respective feats done by them (rather than relying on scaling or lore) constantly, so I'd think the reasoning for DP being invalid should be reworded more among the lines of there being skepticism if we're going to keep its invalidation, which still would be questionable if there's really as much proof in favor of them as you say, so I'd prefer other examples preferably, as they should be clear and cut.

While not a mod, I do agree with the premise of such sort of page, this topic is fairly common and would help minimize bias and ensure indexing accuracy.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

It really seems the only difference between DP and Pokemon on this regard is that in Pokemon the characters in question do have the respective feats done by them (rather than relying on scaling or lore) constantly, so I'd think the reasoning for DP being invalid should be reworded more among the lines of there being skepticism if we're going to keep its invalidation, which still would be questionable if there's really as much proof in favor of them as you say, so I'd prefer other examples preferably, as they should be clear and cut.

The Pokémon humans that scale in reaction speed to their pokemon is because they can keep up with them which is scaling feats. They don't have FTL/Massively FTL+ to Infinite reaction speed feats that don't involve scaling to their pokemon from what I can tell.

Danny Phantom humans function the same way, the current humans (mainly ghost hunters) have scaling feats to ghosts who have Tier 2 feats but none of their own with the exception of the past humans splitting the cosmology when they fought each other.

 

[Bobsican]

In that case there's really no difference and a double standard may be at play, but that's what we're here for, so it'd be best to sort stuff out and then see what'd be the verdict for (most likely) both of them.

 

[Planck69]

Not sure what the page or addition would entail specifically but I do agree that this has to be sorted out. Often times, it comes down to an argument from incredulity rather than anything blatantly denying their scaling and I feel like that should be avoided.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This does seem like a reasonable discussion to have.

Yeah, I normally don't want to bring up too many verse specific examples but it is case by case yeah. I agree that their own feats are often used as good reference points if the powerscaling to civilians or characters often portrayed as cannon fodder can go overboard. There are also cases, such as Pokemon where most human characters are usually portrayed as stonewalls; they survive crazy attacks from Pokemon without long lasting injuries but are normally supposed to incapable of fighting back. And the speed feats are more so perception rather than combat speed or reactions; they see fast Pokemon fight but cannot physically react to them.

I also agree generic statements about being "Human" are often weak reasons to deny blatant feats and/or powerscaling. And it's not just limited to consider the existence of supernatural powers or UES stuff, but there do exist humans who are crazy strong due to pure muscular strength. But if people can also get more elaborate reasons such as "They are common regular humans who range untrained civilians with no combat skills to common foot soldiers on the battlefield where OHKO'ing each other with ordinary bullets is the most common fight scene in the verse." That example can be a better reason to hold off characters being any higher than Tier 9 when someone wants to for instance upgrade the entire verse to Tier 7 via a dubious feat where someone supposedly survived a nuke blowing up a giant battlecruiser. Another thing that could be taken into account is the verse's genre. Verses that are wacky or cartoonish in nature can also have some middle ground in mind where common humans survive crazy stunts that would normally kill someone as opposed to realistic crime dramas or modern warfare settings that try to take character deaths more seriously.

Anyway, I'm neutral on whether or not a blog or page gets made. But think this is a good topic worth discussing yes.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Not sure what the page or addition would entail specifically but I do agree that this has to be sorted out. Often times, it comes down to an argument from incredulity rather than anything blatantly denying their scaling and I feel like that should be avoided.

The addition is simply to apply a standard that I was subjected to in the DP thread that wasn't in place. The large number of scaling feats I posted were capped because "they were scaling feats not feats from the humans themselves" so the amount i show doesn't hold much weight in the long term, which is why the addition mentions that while it's a usable scaling method it's not going to help when you reach insanely high tiers.

This does seem like a reasonable discussion to have.

Yeah, I normally don't want to bring up too many verse specific examples but it is case by case yeah. I agree that their own feats are often used as good reference points if the powerscaling to civilians or characters often portrayed as cannon fodder can go overboard. There are also cases, such as Pokemon where most human characters are usually portrayed as stonewalls; they survive crazy attacks from Pokemon without long lasting injuries but are normally supposed to incapable of fighting back. And the speed feats are more so perception rather than combat speed or reactions; they see fast Pokemon fight but cannot physically react to them.

The profiles literally lists them as full on reaction speed scaling feats and in the description of some mention they can dodge and react to attacks of pokemon of that caliber so they are definitely scaling more than just perception speed.

I also agree generic statements about being "Human" are often weak reasons to deny blatant feats and/or powerscaling. And it's not just limited to consider the existence of supernatural powers or UES stuff, but there do exist humans who are crazy strong due to pure muscular strength. But if people can also get more elaborate reasons such as "They are common regular humans who range untrained civilians with no combat skills to common foot soldiers on the battlefield where OHKO'ing each other with ordinary bullets is the most common fight scene in the verse." That example can be a better reason to hold off characters being any higher than Tier 9 when someone wants to for instance upgrade the entire verse to Tier 7 via a dubious feat where someone supposedly survived a nuke blowing up a giant battlecruiser. Another thing that could be taken into account is the verse's genre. Verses that are wacky or cartoonish in nature can also have some middle ground in mind where common humans survive crazy stunts that would normally kill someone as opposed to realistic crime dramas or modern warfare settings that try to take character deaths more seriously.

Some of the later stuff that would be considered problematic didn't apply to DP yet I was still hit with the they are considered human argument that basically capped them. It was obvious that a tier can be too high for humans to get regardless of their evidence/reasoning.

Anyway, I'm neutral on whether or not a blog or page gets made. But think this is a good topic worth discussing yes.

Ok.

 

[Antoniofer]

Let's start by defining human in this case as "ordinary human folk, equivalent to the real world's", that does not directly interact with a supernatural system nor is biologically amped by science or otherwise, and that also lives in a world that follows the same fundamental physical rules like our own. I say "fundamental physical rules" because writers are no physics, they will miss some laws that are part of our universe, but as long stuff like gravity, time, weather, atmospheric pressure, environmental temperature, etc. do not differ from out world, we will just assume the world works in the same way as our own. Note that is if one elements of these is lacking does not necessary means the human folks are justified to be insanely stronger than the real world counterpart: if the world's time flow works different than our own may not be enough to justify individuals being capable to lift mountains of so.

Also that the world in question has our fundamental physical rules along side supernatural rules is not justification enough to make native individuals jump tiers, as not all individuals are capable to get atune with such forces; this also involve individuals that are natural bearers of unnatural forces, but due several reasons they can't interact or make use of it (i.e, superpowered individuals may read their ki or scan their mana reserves, but because the normal folk is not capacited to make use of it, it is not different to its real world's equivalent).

Now that I defined what a human is in this case (I could elaborate more, but for the time being let's be simplistic), now is what I call a "referential constant/baseline factor" (just as real world animals, gravity, fire weapons, hardness of material, etc.), we can't have the luxury to just simply "upgrade" an entire race merely to satisface a scaling. If a character(s) that is supposely hypersonic struggles to dodge handgun's projectiles in several instances we do not say that handgun's projectiles are faster than the real world ones, or when a character(s) has high durability has showed to be hurt by falling debris or when the character itself fall from great heights we do not say gravity is higher in this world.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Now that I defined what a human is in this case (I could elaborate more, but for the time being let's be simplistic), now is what I call a "referential constant/baseline factor" (just as real world animals, gravity, fire weapons, hardness of material, etc.), we can't have the luxury to just simply "upgrade" an entire race merely to satisface a scaling. If a character(s) that is supposely hypersonic struggles to dodge handgun's projectiles in several instances we do not say that handgun's projectiles are faster than the real world ones, or when a character(s) has high durability has showed to be hurt by falling debris or when the character itself fall from great heights we do not say gravity is higher in this world.

Not sure anyone's tried to upgrade an entire race of humans before, simply a number in which possess superhuman feats of there own and consistent showings that scale them to other powerful entities that would outweigh there anti-feats.

 

[KLOL506]

Me when Indian Soap Opera fodder humans can tango with MCU Khonshu

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Me when Indian Soap Opera fodder humans can tango with MCU Khonshu

I'm not even going to ask what's happening lol.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm generally more strict about weapon/vehicle scaling compared to character scaling.

Yeah, it should not ever be a standard assumption for random trees, buildings, grass, and dirt to all be made of these Adamantium like superalloys as opposed to treating low ends feats as just low end feats (Whether that be PIS or especially game mechanics). Only exception might be higher planes of dimensional/ontological existences where even small pieces of paper are Tier 1 sized. I have seen the most abysmal proposals for upscaling comes from things like (Cannon fodder enemy broke a gate the main hero cannot break) or (Street brawling comicbook hero broke a brick that blocked lasers from cosmic tier villains). Same with bullets getting repelled by standard walls or Kevlar suits despite harming characters with high tiers. I typically prefer a lot of weapons based on RL counterparts to either scale from those or use their own calculations. Not to be confused with supernatural empowered weapons. Sci-Fi weapons also tend to be hit and miss and often somewhere in between. And also melee weapons generally shouldn't be tiered and be dependent on how strong the wielder is.

Back to common animals and civilians. It is a common feat in fiction for characters to be rated as Street level or Wall level via taking out armies of lions, tigers, bears, rhinos, elephants, or dinosaurs. So animals are usually compared to real world counterparts unless they also have other properties. In some verses, there exist animals that consist of basically Kaiju sized lions, tigers, or bears. And have gotten tier 8 calculations from them. But yeah, humans can be a double edge sword and some characters can be selected as much stronger than everyone else. There is a difference between characters who hold back to blend in with humans and humans who are consistently overpowered by other fodder humans with ease due to not really having any sort of special powers.

The profiles literally lists them as full on reaction speed scaling feats and in the description of some mention they can dodge and react to attacks of pokemon of that caliber so they are definitely scaling more than just perception speed.

I am aware of that, but not always sold. But on second thought, I actually did remember making some evasion feats, so I suppose nvm on that.

Some of the later stuff that would be considered problematic didn't apply to DP yet I was still hit with the they are considered human argument that basically capped them. It was obvious that a tier can be too high for humans to get regardless of their evidence/reasoning.

I was more so referring to how common Wall level durability feats are a common minimum for almost any cartoon character. And wasn't single outing DP, but speaking cartoons generally. I know the Total Drama series is another verse full of crazy stunts with durability feats and characters who get mauled by bears and yetis; and characters like Eva beating up all those animals.

Me when Indian Soap Opera fodder humans can tango with MCU Khonshu

Trolltube?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Yeah, I'm generally more strict about weapon/vehicle scaling compared to character scaling.

Yeah, it should not ever be a standard assumption for random trees, buildings, grass, and dirt to all be made of these Adamantium like superalloys as opposed to treating low ends feats as just low end feats (Whether that be PIS or especially game mechanics). Only exception might be higher planes of dimensional/ontological existences where even small pieces of paper are Tier 1 sized. I have seen the most abysmal proposals for upscaling comes from things like (Cannon fodder enemy broke a gate the main hero cannot break) or (Street brawling comicbook hero broke a brick that blocked lasers from cosmic tier villains). Same with bullets getting repelled by standard walls or Kevlar suits despite harming characters with high tiers. I typically prefer a lot of weapons based on RL counterparts to either scale from those or use their own calculations. Not to be confused with supernatural empowered weapons. Sci-Fi weapons also tend to be hit and miss and often somewhere in between. And also melee weapons generally shouldn't be tiered and be dependent on how strong the wielder is.

Back to common animals and civilians. It is a common feat in fiction for characters to be rated as Street level or Wall level via taking out armies of lions, tigers, bears, rhinos, elephants, or dinosaurs. So animals are usually compared to real world counterparts unless they also have other properties. In some verses, there exist animals that consist of basically Kaiju sized lions, tigers, or bears. And have gotten tier 8 calculations from them. But yeah, humans can be a double edge sword and some characters can be selected as much stronger than everyone else. There is a difference between characters who hold back to blend in with humans and humans who are consistently overpowered by other fodder humans with ease due to not really having any sort of special powers.

I agree, that's why I noted in the suggestion that many fictional humans range throughout tier 9. My main point is trying to figure out when the line is drawn when discussing humans who are far above that

I was more so referring to how common Wall level durability feats are a common minimum for almost any cartoon character. And wasn't single outing DP, but speaking cartoons generally. I know the Total Drama series is another verse full of crazy stunts with durability feats and characters who get mauled by bears and yetis; and characters like Eva beating up all those animals.

Fair but that shouldn't be a reason to cap specific humans who scale above that with a legitimate reason, correct?

 

[DontTalkDT]

For me an important part of judging such situations is the perceived strength of attacks vs the scaled strength of attacks.
That goes especially for "monster of the week" kinds of shows, where the heroes are eventually having a really high tier and the monster devastates Tokyo scales.
In situations like that it is often best not to assume that the monster is rampaging with Tier 5 strength and humans that kinda survive an attack like that scale, if the moves used just don't live up even close to the scaling.
I would rather call 5 showings of "storm summoned by a Tier 2 character launches a human against the closest wall, making them bounce off" a series of low-end showings than to have Tier 2 humans based on seemingly weak attacks.
Meanwhile, if a supposedly regular human tanks a bullet from a 8-B attacker which then flings them into a skyscraper making that collapse, I have an easier time believing that the human is 8-B, as the consequences of the tanked attacked were close to the scaled power.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

For me an important part of judging such situations is the perceived strength of attacks vs the scaled strength of attacks.
That goes especially for "monster of the week" kinds of shows, where the heroes are eventually having a really high tier and the monster devastates Tokyo scales.
In situations like that it is often best not to assume that the monster is rampaging with Tier 5 strength and humans that kinda survive an attack like that scale, if the moves used just don't live up even close to the scaling.
I would rather call 5 showings of "storm summoned by a Tier 2 character launches a human against the closest wall, making them bounce off" a series of low-end showings than to have Tier 2 humans based on seemingly weak attacks.
Meanwhile, if a supposedly regular human tanks a bullet from a 8-B attacker which then flings them into a skyscraper making that collapse, I have an easier time believing that the human is 8-B, as the consequences of the tanked attacked were close to the scaled power.

But when the attack is actually trying to kill the character, we can assume it's actually using its strength? Because when I made a thread about scaling characters, it was stated that we assume characters are using there full strength in fights unless proven otherwise.

 

[Damage3245]

Because when I made a thread about scaling characters, it was stated that we assume characters are using there full strength in fights unless proven otherwise.

I think that's just done for the sake of convenience but really it depends on context; some characters fight to kill but others fight to defeat, incapacitate, torture, etc. Some hold back strength in reserve for later or hold back so they don't hurt themselves.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I think that's just done for the sake of convenience but really it depends on context; some characters fight to kill but others fight to defeat, incapacitate, torture, etc. Some hold back strength in reserve for later or hold back so they don't hurt themselves.

So it's more about proving the context behind the scaling feats than just the feat itself?

 

[KLOL506]

Trolltube?

Nah. 100% legit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Nah. 100% legit.

Was just reading the logo on the upper left corner of the video

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath

What do you think about this?

I think that DontTalk seems to make sense here.

 

[Everything12]

I'd like to add that Pokemon also has that thing where human's are basically just another form of Pokemon, having also descended from Mew and how their was once a time when they were one and the same, with human even capable of using the likes of aura and psychic powers, and even able to hold their own with supernatural feats and fight against Pokemon with sufficient training.

So not too good an example, the Pokemon world ain't earth and their humans aren't comparable to us in abilities.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'd like to add that Pokemon also has that thing where human's are basically just another form of Pokemon, having also descended from Mew and how their was once a time when they were one and the same, with human even capable of using the likes of aura and psychic powers, and even able to hold their own with supernatural feats and fight against Pokemon with sufficient training.

So not too good an example, the Pokemon world ain't earth and their humans aren't comparable to us in abilities.

I already mentioned I don't have knowledge on Pokemon and it's not like that's explained on the profiles so how was I suppose to know that when we still classify them as human

 

[Everything12]

Which I was why I was clarifying it myself as someone who is knowledgeable. I wasn't insulting or accusing you of anything if that's what you think. The reason we still call them human is because they are called that in-verse, maybe, can't remember specific quotes and Game Freak does like to distance itself from the old "Raichu can shock an Indian Elephant" days.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'd like to add that Pokemon also has that thing where human's are basically just another form of Pokemon, having also descended from Mew and how their was once a time when they were one and the same, with human even capable of using the likes of aura and psychic powers, and even able to hold their own with supernatural feats and fight against Pokemon with sufficient training.

So not too good an example, the Pokemon world ain't earth and their humans aren't comparable to us in abilities.

I know this is off topic but, this video turned out to be right?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Which I was why I was clarifying it myself as someone who is knowledgeable. I wasn't insulting or accusing you of anything if that's what you think. The reason we still call them human is because they are called that in-verse, maybe, can't remember specific quotes and Game Freak does like to distance itself from the old "Raichu can shock an Indian Elephant" days.

Didn't see it as you insulting or accusing me. I'll crossout the Pokémon stuff, thank you for clarifying.

 

[Everything12]

I know this is off topic but, this video turned out to be right?

Pretty much, in fact I was referencing the Sinnoh Myths in particular when talking about how people and Pokemon were the same. Well beyond that Solosis bit, should have mentioned Mew and Ditto there as Solosis has no special role in the Pokemon genetic tree as far as we know, and I'm pretty sure the human-like Pokemon are less missing links and different branches of a genetic tree that has a common ancestor with humans. Really weird no Mew mentioned in the video at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I do think Danny Phantom pages look awfully silly with their conclusions, but that's a discussion I'm not interested in actually pursuing, just a funny example by OP

Broadly speaking, I think that if the wiki pays proper mind to inconsistencies, then we'll be fine. I think most of these complaints are people recognizing that what is on a profile may not be actually consistent. In Pokemon, humans are not consistently matching Pokemon in battles. Looking at individual minor feats where they do, and using those to represent the whole, would be inconsistent.

I also can get behind DT's logic to an extent.

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu also makes sense to me here.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with DontTalk's post.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I do think Danny Phantom pages look awfully silly with their conclusions, but that's a discussion I'm not interested in actually pursuing, just a funny example by OP

I'd rather people actually speak up about what they find silly regarding profiles I work on. People like to say something is a miss but provide no explanations or reasonable arguments yet will continue to say something is wrong. If you've got a potential issue with DP profiles ratings, I'd rather you bring it up on a thread or discussion thread.

Broadly speaking, I think that if the wiki pays proper mind to inconsistencies, then we'll be fine. I think most of these complaints are people recognizing that what is on a profile may not be actually consistent. In Pokemon, humans are not consistently matching Pokemon in battles. Looking at individual minor feats where they do, and using those to represent the whole, would be inconsistent.

Never said they were matching them in battles overall, but they are always matching them in terms of reaction speed as mentioned on all the trainer profiles.

Anywho, it seems the standards are as I expected them to be. Obviously, verses that have no explanation as to why their human characters (like real life humans) preform feats against empowered entities shouldn't be taken at face value. Cartoons have a bit more leeway in regards to the baseline of what's human since it's common for there characters the break through a wall or survive a fall that would otherwise be fatal. Verses were modern weapons (guns) are considered dangerous and such are obvious indicators that potentially higher scaling is doubtful. Finally, one would require proof that the humans in particular are different from real life humans, usually with them displaying some supernatural abilities, or an energy system that would logically result in enhancements and what not, plus you'd need to make sure the people their fighting are actually using their strength and not holding back.

Is there anything I missed or is that pretty much it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd rather people actually speak up about what they find silly regarding profiles I work on. People like to say something is a miss but provide no explanations or reasonable arguments yet will continue to say something is wrong. If you've got a potential issue with DP profiles ratings, I'd rather you bring it up on a thread or discussion thread.

And I'd rather not watch Danny Phantom to pursue it I watched it when I was a kid, that was enough.

Never said they were matching them in battles overall, but they are always matching them in terms of reaction speed as mentioned on all the trainer profiles.

Was a general statement, homie. While I have watched Danny Phantom, I didn't really watch Pokemon.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

And I'd rather not watch Danny Phantom to pursue it I watched it when I was a kid, that was enough.

You don't need to watch it or pursue it... I was saying that if you spot something you find odd, I'd appreciate speaking out on it. Just saying something is silly indicates an issue which I'd like to be addressed to correct it or provide context. but whatever. It's up to you.

Was a general statement, homie. While I have watched Danny Phantom, I didn't really watch Pokemon.

Alright then.

 

[Propellus]

Can I get a TDLR for this thread, I don't really have time atm to read through all of these. But I can see the point the OP is trying to make here

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Can I get a TDLR for this thread, I don't really have time atm to read through all of these. But I can see the point the OP is trying to make here

Just these comments below give a general stance/thoughts on how one should treat scaling humans. Most people think their fine I think. Basically stating what you'd expect.

For me an important part of judging such situations is the perceived strength of attacks vs the scaled strength of attacks.
That goes especially for "monster of the week" kinds of shows, where the heroes are eventually having a really high tier and the monster devastates Tokyo scales.
In situations like that it is often best not to assume that the monster is rampaging with Tier 5 strength and humans that kinda survive an attack like that scale, if the moves used just don't live up even close to the scaling.
I would rather call 5 showings of "storm summoned by a Tier 2 character launches a human against the closest wall, making them bounce off" a series of low-end showings than to have Tier 2 humans based on seemingly weak attacks.
Meanwhile, if a supposedly regular human tanks a bullet from a 8-B attacker which then flings them into a skyscraper making that collapse, I have an easier time believing that the human is 8-B, as the consequences of the tanked attacked were close to the scaled power.

Let's start by defining human in this case as "ordinary human folk, equivalent to the real world's", that does not directly interact with a supernatural system nor is biologically amped by science or otherwise, and that also lives in a world that follows the same fundamental physical rules like our own. I say "fundamental physical rules" because writers are no physics, they will miss some laws that are part of our universe, but as long stuff like gravity, time, weather, atmospheric pressure, environmental temperature, etc. do not differ from out world, we will just assume the world works in the same way as our own. Note that is if one elements of these is lacking does not necessary means the human folks are justified to be insanely stronger than the real world counterpart: if the world's time flow works different than our own may not be enough to justify individuals being capable to lift mountains of so.

Also that the world in question has our fundamental physical rules along side supernatural rules is not justification enough to make native individuals jump tiers, as not all individuals are capable to get atune with such forces; this also involve individuals that are natural bearers of unnatural forces, but due several reasons they can't interact or make use of it (i.e, superpowered individuals may read their ki or scan their mana reserves, but because the normal folk is not capacited to make use of it, it is not different to its real world's equivalent).

Now that I defined what a human is in this case (I could elaborate more, but for the time being let's be simplistic), now is what I call a "referential constant/baseline factor" (just as real world animals, gravity, fire weapons, hardness of material, etc.), we can't have the luxury to just simply "upgrade" an entire race merely to satisface a scaling. If a character(s) that is supposely hypersonic struggles to dodge handgun's projectiles in several instances we do not say that handgun's projectiles are faster than the real world ones, or when a character(s) has high durability has showed to be hurt by falling debris or when the character itself fall from great heights we do not say gravity is higher in this world.

This does seem like a reasonable discussion to have.

Yeah, I normally don't want to bring up too many verse specific examples but it is case by case yeah. I agree that their own feats are often used as good reference points if the powerscaling to civilians or characters often portrayed as cannon fodder can go overboard. There are also cases, such as Pokemon where most human characters are usually portrayed as stonewalls; they survive crazy attacks from Pokemon without long lasting injuries but are normally supposed to incapable of fighting back. And the speed feats are more so perception rather than combat speed or reactions; they see fast Pokemon fight but cannot physically react to them.

I also agree generic statements about being "Human" are often weak reasons to deny blatant feats and/or powerscaling. And it's not just limited to consider the existence of supernatural powers or UES stuff, but there do exist humans who are crazy strong due to pure muscular strength. But if people can also get more elaborate reasons such as "They are common regular humans who range untrained civilians with no combat skills to common foot soldiers on the battlefield where OHKO'ing each other with ordinary bullets is the most common fight scene in the verse." That example can be a better reason to hold off characters being any higher than Tier 9 when someone wants to for instance upgrade the entire verse to Tier 7 via a dubious feat where someone supposedly survived a nuke blowing up a giant battlecruiser. Another thing that could be taken into account is the verse's genre. Verses that are wacky or cartoonish in nature can also have some middle ground in mind where common humans survive crazy stunts that would normally kill someone as opposed to realistic crime dramas or modern warfare settings that try to take character deaths more seriously.

Anyway, I'm neutral on whether or not a blog or page gets made. But think this is a good topic worth discussing yes.

 

[Propellus]

Just these comments below give a general stance/thoughts on how one should treat scaling humans. Most people think their fine I think. Basically stating what you'd expect.

And you're right, considering how I had this in mind of how i felt about others having issues with overpowered humans. But these suggestions do look fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

Got permission to comment here from OP.

So, I'd like to add as an acceptable example not Pokémon humans, who have indeed a weird lore that indeed justifies them having superhuman feats to the point of even being able to take on Pokémon sometimes, but the Danganronpa ones.

Looking at the main continuity's profiles (as V3 is kinda tame in comparison ngl) it's easy to get why the human don't remotely work like the real ones:

• Regular humans in the verse like Makoto Naegi (who is even stated to be such in-verse) have a sizeable amount of 9-B to 9-A durability feats, and can even harm each other.
• Humans have generally speeds far above a irl one (Komaru Naegi and Yasuhiro Hagakure being examples, or also Yuta Asahina who swam so fast that he literally makes high jumps out of the water with physical might alone)
• High tiers are generally humans who are just trained like in sports, combat or so on, and yet they have extremely high stats from just being stronger than the average ones, just looking at Akane Owari, Kyosuke Munakata or Takumi Hijirihara. While it's true that the Ultimates are the best in the best in their verse to a "superhuman" degree through talent alone, there are characters like Mukuro Ikusaba or Sakura Ogami who are the Ultimate Soildier and Martial Artist respectively, and they have literally no magic source or whatever on why they're so strong, just physical talent. Heck, Genocider Syo, who is just a serial killer, can literally fight against Tier 7 robots with her bare hands.
• Junko Enoshima, Kotogo Ustugi or Toko Fukawa have consistently Tier 7 durability, despite there's not an stated explanation for it at all.

Aka the Danganronpa ones can be added with this reason:

* Danganronpa: Despite the lack of energy systems in the series, the humans have repeatedly showcased feats that vastly exceed the real-life ones, ranging from already Tier 9 for the Bottom Tiers like Makoto Naegi, who is just an average human in the verse, up to Tier 8 and 7 for the higher tiers, who are generally characters who are vastly physically above said average humans like Takumi Hijirihara or Sakura Ogami.

Actually, I re-read the Thread, and it's not about just super strong humans, but Humans who are that high due to scaling from superhuman beings.

Then I guess it should be rewritten as:

* Danganronpa: Despite the lack of energy systems in the series, humans have consistently showcased feats that are far above the real-life ones, with the most powerful ones such as Sakura Ogami or Genocider Syo showcasing to be comparable to beings such as Monokuma or his variants, with said scaling being backed from the fact that even regular humans in the series (such as Makoto Naegi or Teruteru Hanamura), or characters physically much stronger than them (like Takumi Hijirihara or Nekomaru Nidai) have multiple Tier 9 to 8 feats.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Flashlight237]

I have to bring this up since human scaling is a finicky thing in fiction. Personally, I do think other factors that should be accounted for is the narrative, particularly in the mindsets of the humans. That would involve...

1. How willing the human characters are in performing feats of strength.
2. Whether they think of themselves and others as particularly strong in the first place.
3. Whether the narrative thinks the characters are strong to begin with.

One example I would immediately bring up is Total Drama. See, the thing is while the show is narratively driven, it is a cartoon, and yet... Based on what I've seen, they have basically the same issues Pokemon Trainers have in that they can tank a helluva lot (like probably a nuke or smthn), but they never really could punch near as hard as they tanked. In Total Drama's case, oftentimes it's narrative intention to not have these guys be as strong as the durability feats made them out to be.

It's especially noticeable once you get to Total Drama Island 2023 where you get literally the strongest contestant physically speaking in that particular cast: Caleb. And yes, I'm using Caleb because he's basically a top tier (probably out of everyone from what I've witnessed) and thus I see him as more or less the gold standard. And yet... Best I've seen him do is pull a yacht, which...



You can be Class M all you want, but we have this thing in physics called "Work" that would basically relegate a Class M feat to "Small Building level" because of how it's calculated. Bro later would go out of his way to punch the yacht apart:



Which... Imagine being the strongest contestant of the set and possibly of the entire roster yet your punches are nowhere near what contestants of the past tanked. And yet at same time, how willing the contestants are in pulling off feats like Caleb's are more of a reflection that the writers did not intend these guys to be as strong as the wiki makes them out to be. I personally think this is most apparent in the song Boyfriend Kisser where Courtney kinda went on about how to kill Gwen, which...:



While rocks are variable, I think the missiles (more than likely short-range ballistic missiles given how small of a target Gwen would be and how crap missile accuracy is) are a bit more damning in regards to narrative intention. The closest in shape I can find in regards to short-rangers, the PGM-11, only clock in at 3.75 kilotons and yet that is presented as a death scenario. This bearing in mind that explosives have a set yield by design rather than vary in yield.

Hell, these mfs considered Eva pulling a bus as superhuman way back when.:



And yet at the same time, I feel situations like what Danny Phantom, Pokemon, Total Drama, etc have should be mediated in a way that fits both the lore of the series (Narrative) and how Vs Debaters perceive a series (Feats). It would take someone eagle-eyed to do the scrutinizing needed to handle cases where lore and feats are in huge discrepancy with one another, ideally not from someone biased for or against a particular medium. It isn't a one-size-fits-all situation, and I feel the quirks of things like Total Drama would not necessarily apply to things like Pokemon and Danny Phantom, or vice versa.

Basically what I'm saying is we're not Death Battle. Unlike Death Battle (which typically disregards the wonkiness the lore of various media have), we shouldn't discount the feats of these series, but we shouldn't discount the lore either. And when lore goes against the feats or vice-versa, that's where you need to get real into it. You could separate AP and durability like with Pokemon trainers and Bluto from Popeye, you can apply a Varies rating like with Tom and Jerry, or you can follow the criteria listed out in the OP, which I feel would be applicable to Danny Phantom. Different verses should be accounted for differently in regards to human scaling.

As for my vote... I'm Neutral in all this. There is no single robust way this staff discussion should be applied despite the importance of the matter. Now if you'll excuse me, I got an obscure verse calc to do.

 

[Bobsican]

Basically what I'm saying is we're not Death Battle. Unlike Death Battle (which typically disregards the wonkiness the lore of various media have), we shouldn't discount the feats of these series, but we shouldn't discount the lore either. And when lore goes against the feats or vice-versa, that's where you need to get real into it. You could separate AP and durability like with Pokemon trainers and Bluto from Popeye, you can apply a Varies rating like with Tom and Jerry, or you can follow the criteria listed out in the OP, which I feel would be applicable to Danny Phantom. Different verses should be accounted for differently in regards to human scaling.

As for my vote... I'm Neutral in all this. There is no single robust way this staff discussion should be applied despite the importance of the matter. Now if you'll excuse me, I got an obscure verse calc to do.

Gotta just point out here that the Varies example here is outdated per current standards, but beyond that it's a possibility worth keeping in mind for cases like these.

To avoid this being a one-liner and encourage discussion, I'd also think that feats should have more priority than statements, in fact this appears to be the standard as much we disregard so-called "universes" that don't behave like one (such as being reachable without a 5D axis, say, no portals beng required to travel and can be reached in a mundanely straight line), or more recently with Ultima's Tiering System revision disregarding cases of so-called R>F if they don't showcase the proper qualities a fiction should have in terms of normally being inert in relation to something more real.

In other words, as much outliers exist, so do (unintentional) unreliable narrators/explainers, so it's wise to tell apart rules of the setting from basically lies that don't hold up with some scrutinity.

 

[Flashlight237]

In other words, as much outliers exist, so do (unintentional) unreliable narrators/explainers, so it's wise to tell apart rules of the setting from basically lies that don't hold up with some scrutinity.

That is the weird thing, when it comes to the rules of certain settings, the few examples listed here (DP, Pokemon, Dangan Rompa, Total Drama) are basically brought up in their current condition because of the wonkiness in their ruleset. For most series, the ruleset basically just amounts to "it is what it is." And yet, not these four (plus others I'll get to in a sec) for reasons already posted prior.

Sometimes series aren't entirely "it is what it is" when Vs Debaters want it to be. For example, when it comes to the Simpsons, we get the most off-the-wall stuff in the Treehouse of Horror subseries, yet it's essentially a rule in the series to disregard the Treehouse of Horror subseries as non-canon despite it being in the same show.

Another example, the Debby the Corsifa manga series has a similar "humans aren't as strong as what they tank" deal to Total Drama, but it's more direct about it. The whole point of the series is Rokurou (the main protagonist), a human, is never as strong as Debby (the titular cute demon girl), and yet bro finds himself winning against a variety of games against Debby, even some that are more physical (which even as far back as Chapter 2, he knew he'd be screwed in that department). And yet, Rokurou survived being frozen alive by Debby (a 9-A feat according to our references for common feats page) even when Debby freaked out thinking she killed him. Debby consistently pulled off 9-B and 9-A feats btw. Main difference here is the series went out of its way to put in a human character that CAN hold their own against demons physically, in this case a human girl named Rui Tamada. Not often a series pulls a move where they put all the strength needed to confidently take on powerful entities into one specific human character.

Heck, let's look at Dragon Ball. We have the women of the series (usually Bulma) consistently giving Master Roshi what-for throughout the series. At the same time, we never scaled them for two reasons. A. They never displayed that kind of strength otherwise, and B. It's all in the service of a running gag. Usually we associate strength to the characters who actually trained to get as far as they had (in the case of humans, Yamaha and Krillin).

Pretty much there are individual cases that exist, and I agree that it's something that needs to be watched out for.