JJK is abusing UES

[KingTempest]

Exept he isn't gojo burnt the skin on sukunas face with red but was able to flat out punch through the mans chest with the basic punch multiple times and if you ask me burning the epidermis is not as impressive as caving someones sternom in
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/228jjk_009.png
the first time he did it.

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_012.png
the second time he did it

Ok, lemme make it to where context isn't ignored.
First when Sukuna is amped due to the usage of his Domain, Gojo blasts his face off with red, after dealing no useful damage whatsoever.

Then the first time we see the damage that we see in the first frame, we don't even see how it's formed.
The domain breaks and his chest is injured.
Saying that was due to a physical punch is headass headcanon.

Sukuna's chest remains damaged. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, Exhibit D, Exhibit E.
Gojo hurt his chest offscreen and it remained damaged even when he's inside the domain. Nothing at all says Gojo physically wounded him.

Besides the point that he punched him here and nothing happened until all of the ground and buildings are attracted to him, hurting him again,

Gojo straight didn't punch him in the second scan either. He wasn't even close to him. He crushed his heart after his body was frozen.

yeah he does but it also means he is able to use his CE reinforcement to bulster his durability to not have his hands literally turn to dust from applying that level of output to them or are we just gonna say that CE reinforcement of durability is now an entirly different application of CE reinforcement as a whole?

You're literally just chatting.
"Level of output" he's using blue, which is to pull people towards you.
He already has the CE in his fist that's strong enough to utilize blue to help him.

That's a Gojo specific mechanic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Damn 5 pages? When we gonna reach a conclusion?

 

[KingTempest]

Damn 5 pages? When we gonna reach a conclusion?

40 messages per page in contrast to the previous 100. This technically isn't even 2 pages

 

[Duedate8898]

2/3 of the measures you mention don't elaborate on how come they should scale to physicals, mainly only shows that they can reinforce them. Only 1 does

We only need to cover that in one measure. The other two are just about meeting all the standards that lead into it being a UES.

Sukuna showcasing that he's far more injured from Red than from these strikes completely counter that fact.
He destroyed half of his face with a hit, same face that took several hits from Gojo without such a cut.

Again a difference in injury doesn't change the fact that Sukuna was both hurt but still able to tank both attacks. If the CT was so much more powerful than Gojo's pure physicals, then Sukuna shouldn't be getting hurt by both attacks or the damage from red should be far more significant. Seeing as Sukuna wasn't either killed or injured to the point of unconsciousness, this is a clear case of him tanking an attack. There can't be an unscaleable difference between the two.

On top of that, Gojo utilizes blue in his physical combat, so he's an exception to the rule.

That's why I brought up the Domain Amplification angle because DA nullifies cursed techinque. Gojo couldn't be hitting Sukuna with Blue at that time.

Gojo doesn't fall under the same standards as everyone else in the verse.

But Sukuna does as their fight goes to illustrate. And since this thread is ultimately really about Sukuna not scaling to his own CT, I believe it important to focus on him and the other person whose put on his same level.

 

[DaReaperMan]

40 messages per page in contrast to the previous 100. This technically isn't even 2 pages

bro did not get my extremely unfunny joke

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ok, lemme make it to where context isn't ignored.
First when Sukuna is amped due to the usage of his Domain, Gojo blasts his face off with red, after dealing no useful damage whatsoever.

Sukuna off guarded moment
Also Red has atleast 2X of the users output or even higher degree based on strengthening.

Then the first time we see the damage that we see in the first frame, we don't even see how it's formed.
The domain breaks and his chest is injured.
Saying that was due to a physical punch is headass headcanon.

Sukuna's chest remains damaged. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, Exhibit D, Exhibit E.
Gojo hurt his chest offscreen and it remained damaged even when he's inside the domain. Nothing at all says Gojo physically wounded him.

Besides the point that he punched him here and nothing happened until all of the ground and buildings are attracted to him, hurting him again,

Gojo straight didn't punch him in the second scan either. He wasn't even close to him. He crushed his heart after his body was frozen.

You're literally just chatting.
"Level of output" he's using blue, which is to pull people towards you.
He already has the CE in his fist that's strong enough to utilize blue to help him.

That's a Gojo specific mechanic.

I don't care about other arguments but Gojo did crushed Sukuna heart with his hands

 

[KingTempest]

We only need to cover that in one measure. The other two are just about meeting all the standards that lead into it being a UES.

You know the standards to make something a UES?
First it needs to be proven to be at least a LES.
Then it needs to be proven to be at least a NPES.
Then it needs to follow all the UES requirements.

Yeah, you haven't proved anything that makes it look above a Limited Energy System.

Ryu is the only person who's CT and CE Blasts have the same output, stopping it from being a NPES.
And if that doesn't work, then it ain't a UES either.

Again a difference in injury doesn't change the fact that Sukuna was both hurt but still able to tank both attacks. If the CT was so much more powerful than Gojo's pure physicals, then Sukuna shouldn't be getting hurt by both attacks or the damage from red should be far more significant. Seeing as Sukuna wasn't either killed or injured to the point of unconsciousness, this is a clear case of him tanking an attack. There can't be an unscaleable difference between the two.

He blew off his face.
To tank it he needs to steelwall it. He didn't tank anything.
Punches did nothing to his body, a red blew his face off.

That's why I brought up the Domain Amplification angle because DA nullifies cursed techinque. Gojo couldn't be hitting Sukuna with Blue at that time.

So his punches then.

But Sukuna does as their fight goes to illustrate. And since this thread is ultimately really about Sukuna not scaling to his own CT, I believe it important to focus on him and the other person whose put on his same level.

Didn't Sukuna's cuts chop the bodies of ppl who's skin aren't fazed by his strikes?

 

[BadSystems]

I don't care about other arguments but Gojo did crushed Sukuna heart with his hands

A few panels before Gojo did that to Sukuna, we can kinda still see the hole

 

[KingTempest]

Sukuna off guarded moment

Off guard for Gojo to dash and grab him, not for him to stretch out and blast him.

Also Red has atleast 2X of the users output or even higher degree based on strengthening.

2x the output ≠ 2x the damage. The technique needs that increased output to flip the effects, not to hit twice as hard.

I don't care about other arguments but Gojo did crushed Sukuna heart with his hands

The one thing you picked is the least important damn thing there. Wow

 

[BadSystems]

Off guard for Gojo to dash and grab him, not for him to stretch out and blast him.

Sukuna didn't know that Gojo could use Red there. He learns that you can refresh your Cursed Technique like three seconds after this, he couldn't have been expecting Red.

 

[KingTempest]

Sukuna didn't know that Gojo could use Red there. He learns that you can refresh your Cursed Technique like three seconds after this, he couldn't have been expecting Red.

That stops his reinforcement how? Not expecting or not, he's still in combat. His reinforcement would still be active

 

[Duedate8898]

He blew off his face.
To tank it he needs to steelwall it. He didn't tank anything.
Punches did nothing to his body, a red blew his face off.

Apologies I used the wrong terminology, Sukuna withstood both the red and gojo's fist. The red just dealt more damage, which makes sense because we know its two times stronger than Gojo's base stuff. However, withstanding attacks is still grounds for scaling to them in durability.

So his punches then.

Didn't Sukuna's cuts chop the bodies of ppl who's skin aren't fazed by his strikes?

Against the finger bearer, Sukuna rips off his arm and dices him up.
Against Jogo, he cuts off his arms but also bangs him around with his fist.
Mahogaraga withstands both sukuna's dismantle and his punches.

There isn't anyone who has both not been fazed by sukuna's physical attacks and his CT.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Ok, lemme make it to where context isn't ignored.
First when Sukuna is amped due to the usage of his Domain, Gojo blasts his face off with red, after dealing no useful damage whatsoever.

yeah but first since we are not going to be ignoring context like you stated lets actually look at the exchange right after the domain battle shall we?
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_006.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_007.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_009.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_010.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_011.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_013.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_015.png

Gojo doesn't land a single attack on sukuna during their exchange past the domain battle other than the read which took sukuna by surprise and as we can see in this scan
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_017.png
it fully burned his face down to nearly his skeleton but the next time he is hit by red
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_008.png
the dmage is a lot more minimal even though it is in the same spot and lets not go on a tangent of "we didn't see what gojo use to burn his face" because the only attacks that gojo has that could burn sukuna is red and purple and its confirmed later on that gojo only used purple at the start of the fight and than near its end.

Then the first time we see the damage that we see in the first frame, we don't even see how it's formed.
The domain breaks and his chest is injured.
Saying that was due to a physical punch is headass headcanon.

yeah exept how else would it be formed exactly? red? can't be because it leaves scortch marks not blood stains, black flash? also can't be because gojo gets the high of being in "the zone" after he lands it later on in the fight. Then there is the fact that we see gojo land a punch in the same area later on and cause a similar amount damage. There is literally no other possible way to explain that damage other than a strike to the chest and if you have an explanation of how that hole in his chest got there that doesn't involve striking power I would very much like to hear it

Also can you stop with the whole "headass head canon" thing? its childish and unprofessional you are a thread mod you of all people should be repremending others for that type of talk instead of using it yourself.

Sukuna's chest remains damaged. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, Exhibit D, Exhibit E.
Gojo hurt his chest offscreen and it remained damaged even when he's inside the domain. Nothing at all says Gojo physically wounded him.

that is a stain of blood on his shirt.
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/228jjk_011.png
sukuna literally uses RCT to heal off the damage (as can be seen by the RCT smoke on his left)

Besides the point that he punched him here and nothing happened until all of the ground and buildings are attracted to him, hurting him again,

yeah which is blocked and we know that you can increase the CE reinforcement in specific areas, also where did you get the fact that the ground and buildings is what did the damage without as you say "headass headcanon"?

Gojo straight didn't punch him in the second scan either. He wasn't even close to him. He crushed his heart after his body was frozen.

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_012.png
ah yes so that here is sukunas hand just reaching into his own chest? have you by chance considered that gojo could've just, oh I don't know jumped back? like are you outright going to ignore this panel because it is convintient to your argument? like we see gojo's hand right through sukunas chest and the next panel after is this one
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_013.png
gojo isn't right next to him but he did a panel prior cursh his chest with a punch which is quite similar to this panel here

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/228jjk_006.png
in terms of distance and again the damage is in the exact same spot.

You're literally just chatting.
"Level of output" he's using blue, which is to pull people towards you.
He already has the CE in his fist that's strong enough to utilize blue to help him.

That's a Gojo specific mechanic.

yeah he which would also make that argument stronger for one simple reason gojo is using his own CE reinforcement to withstand the force of his own punch while also pulling in a person with durability on his own level while also applying a pulling force into his own fist causing a doubling of the impact force and due to this not being like red or purple and being entirly reliant on physics instead of CE power we can't use the argument of "Blue is made of his CE as such it will have less effect on him".

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Damn 5 pages? When we gonna reach a conclusion?

eh give us 5 months and 20 pages we might reach a conclusion in that time

 

[Sir_sun_man]

A few panels before Gojo did that to Sukuna, we can kinda still see the hole

its not a hole its blood on his chest.
he literally used RCT right after the domains collapsed, Gojo doesn't have some out of nowhere regen nullification

 

[KingTempest]

Apologies I used the wrong terminology, Sukuna withstood both the red and gojo's fist. The red just dealt more damage, which makes sense because we know its two times stronger than Gojo's base stuff. However, withstanding attacks is still grounds for scaling to them in durability.

So the attack needs to take his head off in order for it to scale a large margin?

Durability

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Withstanding Attacks​

Some characters are capable of withstanding damage to the point where an attack only leaves little to no damage on their bodies. In other instances, some characters are less wounded from attacks that seriously harmed others. Sometimes characters are only capable of wounding others because of using sharp attacks which are able to leave more noticeable wounds than blunt attacks.

He did not withstand red.

Against the finger bearer, Sukuna rips off his arm and dices him up.
Against Jogo, he cuts off his arms but also bangs him around with his fist.
Mahogaraga withstands both sukuna's dismantle and his punches.

1. Weakling
2. With your logic, Jogo withstood his hits too, but his hands got chopped off
3. Mahoraga scales relative to him so that doesn't count, but Sukuna vaporized him with the arrow (which the OP references), showing there's not scaling there either.

 

[KingTempest]

yeah but first since we are not going to be ignoring context like you stated lets actually look at the exchange right after the domain battle shall we?
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_006.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_007.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_009.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_010.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_011.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_013.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_015.png

Gojo doesn't land a single attack on sukuna during their exchange past the domain battle other than the read which took sukuna by surprise and as we can see in this scan
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_226tcb_017.png
it fully burned his face down to nearly his skeleton but the next time he is hit by red
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_008.png
the dmage is a lot more minimal even though it is in the same spot and lets not go on a tangent of "we didn't see what gojo use to burn his face" because the only attacks that gojo has that could burn sukuna is red and purple and its confirmed later on that gojo only used purple at the start of the fight and than near its end.

yeah exept how else would it be formed exactly? red? can't be because it leaves scortch marks not blood stains, black flash? also can't be because gojo gets the high of being in "the zone" after he lands it later on in the fight. Then there is the fact that we see gojo land a punch in the same area later on and cause a similar amount damage. There is literally no other possible way to explain that damage other than a strike to the chest and if you have an explanation of how that hole in his chest got there that doesn't involve striking power I would very much like to hear it

Also can you stop with the whole "headass head canon" thing? its childish and unprofessional you are a thread mod you of all people should be repremending others for that type of talk instead of using it yourself.

that is a stain of blood on his shirt.
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/228jjk_011.png
sukuna literally uses RCT to heal off the damage (as can be seen by the RCT smoke on his left)

yeah which is blocked and we know that you can increase the CE reinforcement in specific areas, also where did you get the fact that the ground and buildings is what did the damage without as you say "headass headcanon"?

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_012.png
ah yes so that here is sukunas hand just reaching into his own chest? have you by chance considered that gojo could've just, oh I don't know jumped back? like are you outright going to ignore this panel because it is convintient to your argument? like we see gojo's hand right through sukunas chest and the next panel after is this one
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_g228_013.png
gojo isn't right next to him but he did a panel prior cursh his chest with a punch which is quite similar to this panel here

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/228jjk_006.png
in terms of distance and again the damage is in the exact same spot.

yeah he which would also make that argument stronger for one simple reason gojo is using his own CE reinforcement to withstand the force of his own punch while also pulling in a person with durability on his own level while also applying a pulling force into his own fist causing a doubling of the impact force and due to this not being like red or purple and being entirly reliant on physics instead of CE power we can't use the argument of "Blue is made of his CE as such it will have less effect on him".

You're saying a bunch of nothing.

You made several paragraphs proving nothing at all.

All we know is that red hurt him more than his physicals

 

[Sir_sun_man]

That stops his reinforcement how? Not expecting or not, he's still in combat. His reinforcement would still be active

reinforcement can be both bolstered and lowered depending on the situation, we see it done by panda and todo, hell todo managed to pull his reinforcement into a single area to surive a blackflash

also this is giving me massive "goku got hit by a finger laser and nearly died so he is fodder" flashbacks from revival of F days, being off guard in these types of shows can reduce ones durability if you require constant focus to bolster your defenses much like in JJK

 

[BadSystems]

its not a hole its blood on his chest.
he literally used RCT right after the domains collapsed, Gojo doesn't have some out of nowhere regen nullification

Blood on his chest? How does that even happen. That's the healed part of the chest. It should be like, a clean smooth chest. If all we saw were the edges, sure, but that's pretty much dead center.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

A few panels before Gojo did that to Sukuna, we can kinda still see the hole

It's not hole it's blood.
Check this scan which comes after yours. His hole is closed and Narrative even states he healed his wounds that why his DE was slowed that because he needed time to regain his CT burn out.

Off guard for Gojo to dash and grab him, not for him to stretch out and blast him.

That stops his reinforcement how? Not expecting or not, he's still in combat. His reinforcement would still be active

You know he can Reinforce his durability if he wants more? We don't even see Sukuna trying harder on that first domain clash.

2x the output ≠ 2x the damage. The technique needs that increased output to flip the effects, not to hit twice as hard.

Well Red is something which works like Black hole ( Not talking like real black hole btw). More like it doesn't work like normal attack that's what I mean.

The one thing you picked is the least important damn thing there. Wow

No I posted that because you are saying Gojo didn't harmed Sukuna physically.

 

[KingTempest]

@Sir_sun_man do you even know what the premise of the OP is?

 

[Sir_sun_man]

You're saying a bunch of nothing.

You made several paragraphs proving nothing at all.

All we know is that red hurt him more than his physicals

wow nice argument you really tackled all those points incredibly, I must say your good faith debating here is truly inspiring

 

[Sir_sun_man]

@Sir_sun_man do you even know what the premise of the OP is?

yes, well aware of it, we want to apply a limited UES to CE and take away the scaling to CT to physical stats, which I disagree with

 

[Duedate8898]

@Sir_sun_man Chill out.

 

[BadSystems]

It's not hole it's blood.
Check this scan which comes after yours. His hole is closed and Narrative even states he healed his wounds that why his DE was slowed that because he needed time to regain his CT burn out.

Oh, never mind then. I'm wrong about the hole thingy.

 

[KingTempest]

You know he can Reinforce his durability if he wants more? We don't even see Sukuna trying harder on that first domain clash.

This has nothing to do with the damn premise at hand

Well Red is something which works like Black hole ( Not talking like real black hole btw). More like it doesn't work like normal attack that's what I mean.

So Gojo is a shit example

No I posted that because you are saying Gojo didn't harmed Sukuna physically.

And it didn't prove anything

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Blood on his chest? How does that even happen. That's the healed part of the chest. It should be like, a clean smooth chest. If all we saw were the edges, sure, but that's pretty much dead center.

My good man, I don't think RCT comes with an in built cloth cleaning properties

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So Gojo is a shit example

Well use Yuta vs Ryu example @Sir_sun_man gave then

 

[BadSystems]

My good man, I don't think RCT comes with an in built cloth cleaning properties

Tbf, the blood shouldn't be there. I get that it's said he healed, but there shouldn't be any cloth there for the blood to stain because Gojo supposedly punched thru that part of the shirt. Either it's a drawing mistake or I am stupid

 

[Sir_sun_man]

@Sir_sun_man Chill out.

what did I do? I am arguing my point here and the best I have recived as of now is "headass headcanon" and "You're saying a bunch of nothing" as responses from a thread mod, I am aruging in good faith and trying to be polite, I've only responded with a single sarcastic argument after what I would call bad faith responses.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Tbf, the blood shouldn't be there. I get that it's said he healed, but there shouldn't be any cloth there for the blood to stain because Gojo supposedly punched thru that part of the shirt. Either it's a drawing mistake or I am stupid

I think its more so that due to the punch blood splattered outwards staining the shirt around the hole red which creates that "gapping hole" look

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Why would CT be treated differently than Nen? both require constant flow, but are present in all humans but need to be awakened via flow to utilize, both have basic reinforcement buffs, both can be utilized in generally more powerful/useful forms ala Hatsu and CT, both can carry aura to affect others, both can bolster attack/defense dependant upon the percentage of aura being utilized by a specific body part, and people explicitly use that reinforcement to block from the "much stronger" CT attacks, with the two biggest factors being efficiency and total CE.

We've already seen that CE can ampy durability to the point of being roughly on par with strong CT, so is the main argument here about offensive augmentation? Cause once again, most CT's would one shot most people if this wasn't the case.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

yeah, refined as in more fine-tuned literally explained in the scan with the whole cans things, Gojo uses two cans as an example of regular CE use and CT use, through pure CE the can gets smashed and crushed, with CT use he demonstrates that you can use that same CE to more precisely twist the can instead of simply crushing it which shows relativity between CE and CT one is more raw the other is more precise with the application

the difference is massive in application not power output as a whole, hell since I've seen people so constantly use Ryu for the whole "only sorcerer with the same output no matter what" statement, I am going to use him here as an example but with a different character, Yuta during his fight with Ryu used rika to create a consentrated blast of CE similar to granite blast:
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_003.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_004.png
and as can be seen Yuta lost that exchange of blasts he matched the CT of granite blast which is again a CT focused fully on damage output form a person who is stated multiple times to have "The highest output in history" and yet it doesn't demonstrate a "massive" difference to yutas reinforcement as yuta was able to block and redirect granite blast with his bare hands
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_008.png
same goes for rika who was able to outright block and negate the granite blast outright
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjksendai5_178_008.png

So again if we are going to argue the sementics of how CT output is so MUCH MORE powerful than regular reinforcement explain to me how a character whos output is stated to be comperable to Ryu(though weaker) was able to block and withstand a CT that is again the "highest output in history" with their CE reinforcement?

@KingTempest you should check this out if we are gonna remove Gojo as a bad example. Yuta and Ryu obviously suits for better example.

 

[BadSystems]

Anyway, I agree with the thread. Main premise is that 15F Sukuna's physicals should not scale to the Fire Arrow feat, which I remain convinced of.

 

[KingTempest]

Well use Yuta vs Ryu example @Sir_sun_man gave then

Ok

what did I do? I am arguing my point here and the best I have recived as of now is "headass headcanon" and "You're saying a bunch of nothing" as responses from a thread mod, I am aruging in good faith and trying to be polite, I've only responded with a single sarcastic argument after what I would call bad faith responses.

Oh my god

@Sir_sun_man I sincerely apologize for my negative remark such as "headass headcanon". That is not intended to be insulting or hurtful, that is just how I speak. If I offended you, I am sorry, and I will watch my tone and language if that pleases you.

However me saying "you're saying a bunch of nothing" is not a negative remark in the slightest. You are saying large sums of evidence that provide nothing to the conversation at hand which make it seem that you're speaking just to speak.

Now, can we get on topic? Because you're saying a bunch of subpoints when I'm not even sure you understand the main issue

 

[Duedate8898]

So the attack needs to take his head off in order for it to scale a large margin?

Durability

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Withstanding Attacks​

Some characters are capable of withstanding damage to the point where an attack only leaves little to no damage on their bodies. In other instances, some characters are less wounded from attacks that seriously harmed others. Sometimes characters are only capable of wounding others because of using sharp attacks which are able to leave more noticeable wounds than blunt attacks.

He did not withstand red.

I'm not saying it needs to take off his head, but I am saying that the damage done to Sukuna by red in this instance isn't high enough to say he's not scaling to it because he got hit in the face and launched back, but its only burnt, it's not bludgeoned or not damaged to a degree that Sukuna is put out of commission especially since this is an attack aimed at his head and he needs his head to operate. Later on in the fight, when he takes a black flash to the chest we're shown him fully put out by that and needing to take a rest. That doesn't happen here with Red.

1. Weakling
2. With your logic, Jogo withstood his hits too, but his hands got chopped off
3. Mahoraga scales relative to him so that doesn't count, but Sukuna vaporized him with the arrow (which the OP references), showing there's not scaling there either.

I'm not saying Jogo withstood Sukuna's hits because Jogo took far more damage whenever Sukuna hit him, he consistently was stunned and torn apart to a far greater degree just from Sukuna's physical attacks.

Sukuna on the other hand takes this hit from Red from Gojo in stride and keeps going like its nothing.

And as someone already outline earlier, Gojo dealt even greater damage than this red with a punch to Sukuna's chest in a later domain expansion, further illustrating that the difference between Gojo's CT and his physicals isn't so extreme there isn't anything to scale there.

And Mahoraga would've been killed by Cleave, which is an attack which is all about cutting through in one fell swoop if he hadn't adapted to slashing attacks. Sukuna switches to the fire because its a different attack that Mahoraga couldn't have adapted too. It is outlined here the issue isn't a matter of power but of method for Sukuna

 

[Sir_sun_man]

@KingTempest I mean I was adressing your points on the whole sukuna V gojo and CT's effects
But to the bin with that it isn't a good example for either side of the argument

and yeah I do know what the topic is about, one side is arguing that the fire arrow CT shouldn't in any way scale to sukuna's phyiscal stats and as such the low 7-B striking power, AP (without the use of fire arrow) and durability should be taken away from both sukuna and gojo and to bolster that argument there is the whole UES discussion with the side that wants the downgrade to go through arguing for a limited UES for cursed energy which would in turn effect any future CT feats.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with the OP

 

[KingTempest]

yeah, refined as in more fine-tuned literally explained in the scan with the whole cans things, Gojo uses two cans as an example of regular CE use and CT use, through pure CE the can gets smashed and crushed, with CT use he demonstrates that you can use that same CE to more precisely twist the can instead of simply crushing it which shows relativity between CE and CT one is more raw the other is more precise with the application

the difference is massive in application not power output as a whole, hell since I've seen people so constantly use Ryu for the whole "only sorcerer with the same output no matter what" statement, I am going to use him here as an example but with a different character, Yuta during his fight with Ryu used rika to create a consentrated blast of CE similar to granite blast:
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_003.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_004.png
and as can be seen Yuta lost that exchange of blasts he matched the CT of granite blast which is again a CT focused fully on damage output form a person who is stated multiple times to have "The highest output in history" and yet it doesn't demonstrate a "massive" difference to yutas reinforcement as yuta was able to block and redirect granite blast with his bare hands
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_008.png
same goes for rika who was able to outright block and negate the granite blast outright
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjksendai5_178_008.png

So again if we are going to argue the sementics of how CT output is so MUCH MORE powerful than regular reinforcement explain to me how a character whos output is stated to be comperable to Ryu(though weaker) was able to block and withstand a CT that is again the "highest output in history" with their CE reinforcement?

My turn.

First of all Yuta never blocked a Granite Blast with peak output.
Granite Blast varies in output, shown as he can blast it before it gets to maximum output.

He can shoot a super large one, a very super thin one here too, and more.

Second of all, when he tried to punch one with a relatively smaller output, he got sent flying and part of his hand blew off. Straight blasted his fingers off and scorched half of his forearm.
Rika blocked one and her hand got burned.

Third of all, Yuta and his ridiculous CQC strength could fight Ryu, but when Ryu got hit by the actual part of his attack, he got put on the ground.
And before you say "Ryu took his own granite blast too", he didn't, it hit the part of the building right below em and still put him on his ass.

So no, there is no chance they scale to the Granite Blast's full power.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

First of all Yuta never blocked a Granite Blast with peak output.
Granite Blast varies in output, shown as he can blast it before it gets to maximum output.

it questionable if the "reaching maxpower" wouldn't apply here as Ishigori can reach his max output in an increadibly short period of time its due to his CT that is focused on CE output being maxed out which puts the idea of the Granite blast that yuta deflected being lower on the output scale into question.

He can shoot a super large one, a very super thin one here too, and more.

yes but yuta did take that super large one head on

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/tcbjujutsu/jjk176_010.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/tcbjujutsu/jjk176_011.png
The only thing that we can argue here as to why Yuta didn't take quite as much damage as he did with the thinner blasts is due to area of effect, surface area and concentration of power, with the thin ones more than likely being more useful against singular opponents and with the huge area of effect one being more suited for multiple targets aka Uro and Yuta

Second of all, when he tried to punch one with a relatively smaller output, he got sent flying and part of his hand blew off. Straight blasted his fingers off and scorched half of his forearm.

you are forgeting a large caviat as to why yutas hand recived more damage here rather than before and that is because this:
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_008.png
and this:
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_009.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_010.png
happen back to back, meaning Yuta's hand was already damaged and here he literally it taking the granite blast point black meaning the surface area of damage is even further decreased meaning he is taking 100% of the granite blast without a possiblity of it being dispersed or redirected meaning the damage here will be at maximum output, also if you want to say that this granite blast was higher in output than the previouse one that would put your original point of varing power into question as here Ryu delivers higher output in less than a tenth of the charge up time of the previouse blast.

The only time we've got any confermation on a granite blast being weaker than normal output was here
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjktcb_181_005.png
which is relating to this moment here
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_179_tcb_012.png

which is related to CT burn out past opening a domain and would as such not be applicable to his regular blasts.

Also again we are talking about Ryu here his whole shtick is that his output is always on max setting be it during his punches or granite blasts
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_006.png

Rika blocked one and her hand got burned.

yeah it got burnt but it didn't get blown right off meaning there is reletivity between CT and CE reinforcement.

Third of all, Yuta and his ridiculous CQC strength could fight Ryu, but when Ryu got hit by the actual part of his attack, he got put on the ground.

again this fails to take into account that Ryu was severly damaged prior to this point
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_006.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_010.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_011.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_012.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_013.png

and only after all this damage was he hit with the granite blast and that granite blast he was hit with took him by surprise from up above while he was focusing on yuta who was infront of him meaning that his reinforcement was more than likely weaker at his back than the front as it would make no sense to have an even layer of CE reinforcement when the only opponent you have left is right infront of you.

And before you say "Ryu took his own granite blast too", he didn't, it hit the part of the building right below em and still put him on his ass.

I mean I wasn't gonna use that one but its quesitonable if he was or wasn't hit so using that scan for anything is pointless before we get to see it in anime and know if he was hit directly or not
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_013.pnghttps://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/jjk/jjk_tcb_177_014.png
as can be seen in the first pannel the blast is seemingly going twards Ryu we even get that character reaction thing that most managa do when an attack is about to land on a person and they are surprised by it, but we see it hit the building as well so its kinda difficutl to say one way or the other.

Oh and yeah there is also this
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/jjk_tcb_180_006.png
Ryu was able to flat out block and tank one of rikas blasts which was noted to possess a similar level of output to the granite blast to the point of being able to clash with it a few panels prior (although overall a bit weaker) and Ryu was able to no sell it with his hand