Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[KingTempest]

Is it? Goku just helped him achieve his full power. All things considered, Gohan still is an undertrained teenager. It might just be an issue of experience that Goku was trying to help him overcome.

It wasn't experience, he was deliberately holding back and Goku's influence allowed him to gain the strength to put his all into it

 

[Nullflowerblush]

'S not like, in a hypothetical scenario, that Gohan'd be incapable of pulling off the Father-Son Kamehameha without Goku. The only reason he needed the influence against Cell was because Cell made the situation seemingly hopeless, and Gohan was working off of a broken arm. In a versus battle, that likely is not going to be the case.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So Gohan's key is from before the Father-Son Kamehameha or after? Because I would assume he should have retained his father's encouragement if it's from after the Kamehameha.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Don't tempt me.

Damage, I'm on your side, but I'm still ready with my sniper, don't make hasty moves!!! /j

 

[Axxtentacle]

It wasn't experience, he was deliberately holding back and Goku's influence allowed him to gain the strength to put his all into it

He was holding back, yeah. That's my point. Goku wouldn't because he knows that he shouldn't, & he was pushing Gohan to do the same.

 

[Stefano4444]

Personally i feel like both sides are correct.

Since higher Ki Control do grant Damage Boost to Ki Users, allowing them to amplify their attacks higher than their regular level, which its clearly show with Piccolo & Goku VS Raditz, meaning Cell's Solar Kamehameha should work in the same way.

But i do also think that this isn't limited to just their energy attacks, as nothing stop the characters to apply the same principle to enhance their physical attacks (the Dragon First or this show that it can be done), and the same can be apply to boost their defense (an example may be Piccolo when he sacrifice to saved Gohan from Nappa, yes he died but was still able to rise his durability high enough that his body wasn't completely destroyed).

Of course this requid time to charge as Ki Users still can't instantly focus all their energy in one point, other the fact that it probably consume a lot of stamina.

So Borutonarutodebunked's propose to have Cell and Gohan at '4-B, higher with Ki Control/Ki Amplification/charging' for not just Attack Potency but also Striking Strength and Durability make the most sense to me.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

But i do also think that this isn't limited to just their energy attacks, as nothing stop the characters to apply the same principle to enhance their physical attacks (the Dragon First or this show that it can be done), and the same can be apply to boost their defense (an example may be Piccolo when he sacrifice tto saved Gohan from Nappa, yes he died but was still able to rise his durability high enough that his body wasn't completely destroyed).

I'm pretty sure the Afterimage works on this exact principle, just for speed.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But i do also think that this isn't limited to just their energy attacks, as nothing stop the characters to apply the same principle to enhance their physical attacks (the Dragon First or this show that it can be done), and the same can be apply to boost their defense (an example may be Piccolo when he sacrifice tto saved Gohan from Nappa, yes he died but was still able to rise his durability high enough that his body wasn't completely destroyed).

Right.
The difference is, though, that the Kamehameha accumulates all of the Ki within the body at once.

An energy punch is like withdrawing $1,000 from a spending account of $10,000. A Kamehameha is withdrawing all $10,000.

 

[Stefano4444]

The difference is, though, that the Kamehameha accumulates all of the Ki within the body at once.

And for what reason only the Kamehameha's technique should be assumed to be capable to do that?

Again, techniques like the Dragon First show that that the same principle can be apply to physical attacks, is not just exclusive to energy attacks.

An energy punch is like withdrawing $1,000 from a spending account of $10,000. A Kamehameha is withdrawing all $10,000.

Goku doesn't need the Kamehameha to withdrawing all $10.000, the Kamehameha its just his signature move.

Or then Goku wouldn't had been unable to enhance his fist to kill King Piccolo.

 

[Damage3245]

And for what reason only the Kamehameha's technique should be assumed to be capable to do that?

Again, techniques like the Dragon First show that that the same principle can be apply to physical attacks, is not just exclusive to energy attacks.

Dragon Fist is just in GT and one of the movies, it's not canon to the rest of the series.

And the Kamehameha isn't the only technique that can do that, but not every technique can do that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Shouldn't the androids continously output their max strenght?

 

[pineappleman]

Dragon Fist is just in GT and one of the movies, it's not canon to the rest of the series.

And the Kamehameha isn't the only technique that can do that, but not every technique can do that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What am I looking for here?

 

[omegabronic]

Shouldn't the androids continously output their max strenght?

the androids have no Ki iirc

 

[pineappleman]

What am I looking for here?

Mainly a comparison of how Goku's physical attacks were damaging Piccolo, arguably more than the Super Kamehameha used against him earlier in the fight

 

[Damage3245]

Mainly a comparison of how Goku's physical attacks were damaging Piccolo, arguably more than the Super Kamehameha used against him earlier in the fight

And Gohan's Kamehameha did a lot more damage to Cell than his physical attacks were doing...

I don't see the point of this tbh. We should be looking at each character individually for how we're scaling the profiles. If we had a feat of Gohan punching aside Cell's Solar Kamehameha then this wouldn't be a CRT in the first place.

 

[MeiouHades]

the androids have no Ki iirc

They do have a infinite energy supply, but that doesn’t mean they always output their maximum all the time. They can and are shown holding back too

 

[pineappleman]

And Gohan's Kamehameha did a lot more damage to Cell than his physical attacks were doing...

I don't see the point of this tbh. We should be looking at each character individually for how we're scaling the profiles. If we had a feat of Gohan punching aside Cell's Solar Kamehameha then this wouldn't be a CRT in the first place.

no, i don't believe that nitpicking every single fight and arguing semantics is the way to go about this. A precedent has been set in the series

 

[Damage3245]

no, i don't believe that nitpicking every single fight and arguing semantics is the way to go about this. A precedent has been set in the series

Nitpicking is exactly what you're doing; we're analyzing scaling for a couple of character midway through DBZ and you're bringing up a clip from Dragon Ball of an unrelated fight.

 

[Galvino]

I think Gohan's Kamehameha should be looked at as unquantifiable just because of the rage amp Gohan got which was a big part of the narrative since he was later weaker against Dabura because he lacked the amp.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It is not an amp, rage is what guides his power.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Personally i feel like both sides are correct.

Since higher Ki Control do grant Damage Boost to Ki Users, which allow them to amplify their attacks higher than their regular level, which its clearly show with Piccolo & Goku VS Raditz, meaning Cell's Solar Kamehameha should work in the same way.

But i do also think that this isn't limited to just their energy attacks, as nothing stop the characters to apply the same principle to enhance their physical attacks (the Dragon First or this show that it can be done), and the same can be apply to boost their defense (an example may be Piccolo when he sacrifice tto saved Gohan from Nappa, yes he died but was still able to rise his durability high enough that his body wasn't completely destroyed).

Of course this requid time to charge as Ki Users still can't instantly focus all their energy in one point, other the fact that it probably consume a lot of stamina.

So Borutonarutodebunked's propose to have Cell and Gohan at '4-B, higher with Ki Control/Ki Amplification/charging' for not just Attack Potency but also Striking Strength and Durability make the most sense to me.

I agree with this take.

 

[pineappleman]

Nitpicking is exactly what you're doing; we're analyzing scaling for a couple of character midway through DBZ and you're bringing up a clip from Dragon Ball of an unrelated fight.

You're the one that was arguing that the principle of physicals being as strong if not stronger than beams only applied in non-canon works. Why wouldn't I show you an example of it in the canon work?

 

[RedReaper]

Personally i feel like both sides are correct.

Since higher Ki Control do grant Damage Boost to Ki Users, allowing them to amplify their attacks higher than their regular level, which its clearly show with Piccolo & Goku VS Raditz, meaning Cell's Solar Kamehameha should work in the same way.

But i do also think that this isn't limited to just their energy attacks, as nothing stop the characters to apply the same principle to enhance their physical attacks (the Dragon First or this show that it can be done), and the same can be apply to boost their defense (an example may be Piccolo when he sacrifice to saved Gohan from Nappa, yes he died but was still able to rise his durability high enough that his body wasn't completely destroyed).

Of course this requid time to charge as Ki Users still can't instantly focus all their energy in one point, other the fact that it probably consume a lot of stamina.

So Borutonarutodebunked's propose to have Cell and Gohan at '4-B, higher with Ki Control/Ki Amplification/charging' for not just Attack Potency but also Striking Strength and Durability make the most sense to me.

I also agree with this, especially since in Gohan’s case the cheering of him in itself grants Genki, and thus energy.

 

[KingTempest]

Goku doesn't need the Kamehameha to withdrawing all $10.000, the Kamehameha its just his signature move.

Or then Goku wouldn't had been unable to enhance his fist to kill King Piccolo.

Not the point, usually he would withdraw like $1,000.

The point is that he doesn't usually utilize that much, so we need an average strength level for Goku, not just "Goku when using an attack that would put him on his ass is this strong, so Goku is this strong on average"

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Guys?

"X, up to Y with techniques" works, no?

 

[Damage3245]

We've covered so many different feats from different fights in here, but in case anyone is actually doubting still that at times that the Kamehameha can be portrayed as being well above the user's typical statistics, here we have Ultra Instinct Sign Goku hitting Moro with what is clearly supposed to be the upper limits of his strength and being unable to make any headway due to Moro's durability (with Moro describing said blows as the extent of Goku's power).

But here we have Super Saiyan Blue Goku (which should be below Ultra Instinct Sign Goku) using a Kamehameha to destroy Transformed Moro's arm (and Transformed Moro is obviously far stronger than regular Moro).

So a weaker version of Goku is able to cause significantly more damage to a stronger version of Moro with a Kamehameha, than a stronger version of Goku was able to cause to a weaker version of Moro with just physical blows.

Anyone who says "verse mechanics mean Ki blasts = punches" is just completely ignoring context from now on.

 

[Cropfist]

We're proposing that he be "4-B, higher with Kamehameha".

How would it be higher with the massive energy boundary for solar system level?

 

[CloverDragon03]

How would it be higher with the massive energy boundary for solar system level?

It's higher into the same tier

 

[MeiouHades]

We've covered so many different feats from different fights in here, but in case anyone is actually doubting still that at times that the Kamehameha can be portrayed as being well above the user's typical statistics, here we have Ultra Instinct Sign Goku hitting Moro with what is clearly supposed to be the upper limits of his strength and being unable to make any headway due to Moro's durability (with Moro describing said blows as the extent of Goku's power).

But here we have Super Saiyan Blue Goku (which should be below Ultra Instinct Sign Goku) using a Kamehameha to destroy Transformed Moro's arm (and Transformed Moro is obviously far stronger than regular Moro).

So a weaker version of Goku is able to cause significantly more damage to a stronger version of Moro with a Kamehameha, than a stronger version of Goku was able to cause to a weaker version of Moro with just physical blows.

Anyone who says "verse mechanics mean Ki blasts = punches" is just completely ignoring context from now on.

I’m not disregarding the evidence (the Moro point is genuinely a good argument) but you realize how much of a slippery slope that last statement is right? It could easily set the stage for arguments about downgrading durability and striking strength significantly. You’ll get Death Battle’s Goku who’s “6-B physically, 5-B with Ki” and other nonsense similar to that

unless that’s your goal in th first place.

 

[Deagonx]

but you realize how much of a slippery slope that last statement is right? It could easily set the stage for arguments about downgrading durability and striking strength significantly.

If that's the most reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the evidence, I don't see the problem.

 

[Damage3245]

I’m not disregarding the evidence (the Moro point is genuinely a good argument) but you realize how much of a slippery slope that last statement is right? It could easily set the stage for arguments about downgrading durability and striking strength significantly. You’ll get Death Battle’s Goku who’s “6-B physically, 5-B with Ki” and other nonsense similar to that

A slippery slope is literally a fallacy. It's not a good counter-argument for a legitimate revision.

We'll cross that bridge when we get to it (I very much doubt it will get to that point)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I’m not disregarding the evidence (the Moro point is genuinely a good argument) but you realize how much of a slippery slope that last statement is right? It could easily set the stage for arguments about downgrading durability and striking strength significantly. You’ll get Death Battle’s Goku who’s “6-B physically, 5-B with Ki” and other nonsense similar to that

unless that’s your goal in th first place.

Elaborate.

Because Ki acts as latent power within the body, and is constantly powering one's physical abilities.

 

[MeiouHades]

If that's the most reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the evidence, I don't see the problem.

Yeah okay I see the point of all these CRTs and I see where this is headed as well. Should’ve known.
Doesn’t help that the same 2/3 mods tend to agree with these first and foremost

 

[MeiouHades]

Elaborate.

Because Ki acts as latent power within the body, and is constantly powering one's physical abilities.

Read my “death battle” point. I’m saying exactly that

 

[AguilaR202]

Im just saying that giving that much of an amp for Charged ki attacks over base stats is bound to create a massive inflation in power every time a character just negs them physically because scaling allows us to derive multipliers off things like a KHH, SBC and Garlick gun.

 

[omegabronic]

Im just saying that giving that much of an amp for Charged ki attacks over base stats is bound to create a massive inflation in power every time a character just negs them physically because scaling allows us to derive multipliers off things like a KHH, SBC and Garlick gun.

We can't give multipliers out of either of those per our multiplier rules

 

[AguilaR202]

We can't give multipliers out of either of those per our multiplier rules

They bridge the gap between forms with accepted multipliers, to suggest they’re not consistent amps to be used for scaling means you can’t argue for them to be substantially above normal stats to warrant separate ratings.

 

[MeiouHades]

(I very much doubt it will get to that point)

Let’s make a bet

 

[Damage3245]

They bridge the gap between forms with accepted multipliers, to suggest they’re not consistent amps to be used for scaling means you can’t argue for them to be substantially above normal stats to warrant separate ratings.

We're not arguing for them to be consistent amps. We're just acknowledging that they are amps.