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Sonic Upgrades continued

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Wait what I thought it was a different form oof, I'm just saying Dark Gaia is PIS, due to Supersonic having an established tier before hand, along with base sonic being a planet level character, multiple times
 
Also I really think you guys should add on to Sonic defeating Chaos 6. I've already debunked why the robots aren't his weakness and other stuff I've pointed out. Sonic should scale towards Chaos 6 too.
 
Alright, I'll share a post Zamasu Chan shared sent me on my Wall.

Starting with Sonic colors, the black hole only engulfed the center of the amusement park because all the planets were detached. That part of the park is not that big whatsoever. You can see the buildings and other structures in the background. Anyway the black hole also moves faster than Sonic runs and it never engulfs the planet before it's destroyed by the wisps. When Sonic gets sucked in he could barely stand even after being protected. Agreed with this.

Next is Ifrit. He was stated to destroy entire worlds but when he fought Sonic, he wasn't fully awakened and not at full power. Even in this weakened state, Ifrit is able to fight Sonic and even harm him. Not to mention there's no proof that Ifrit's statement puts him higher than High 6-A. Not saying he can't, just that it's not elaborate enough.

Next, Emerl was stated to destroy the planet with all 7 chaos emeralds, base Emerl thrashed both Sonic and Shadow at the same time. No way in hell should they scale to Ultimate Emerl who is actually powered by the emeralds. I agree that this should be considered PIS

Now we have the opponents Sonic faced in the past. I know a rebuttal people like to use is "Sonic always gets stronger" and yes he may get stronger but not that much. For example the Egg Emperor needed the combination of Sonic, Tails and Knuckles to defeat it. In Sonic Generations the Egg Emperor returns and even though Sonic alone can fight it, it's still able to harm Sonic. Sonic also fights Shadow and Silver of the past and they're able to harm Sonic. And usually when he does it stronger it's usually only temporary since he goes back to being equal to Tails and Knuckles.

Finally we have the Chaos Emeralds, where do I even begin. First off the emeralds (1-5) have multiple feats that are below 5-B. 5-B for one emerald raises many questions. Why would Eggman need all 7 Emeralds to destroy a planet? Why would 7 emeralds need to restore damage that one emerald did? Why would Ultimate Emerl need all 7 Emeralds to destroy the world? Why are so many feats with multiple emeralds lower than 5-B? Why would Shadow need all 7 Emeralds to "destroy this damn planet"? If you think is because it's an AoE Fallacy then you're completely wrong because one emerald would have a continental range and supposedly destroy the planet. Agreed with this 100%

As much as I like the idea of tier 5 base Sonic, I cannot find myself letting this slide. My sentiments exactly. However, his temporary power ups where he occasionally far exceeds his pears could be an interesting note.
 
Zamasu Chan's points are easy to debunk.

The Wisps can also do this with their Hyper-go-on and the feat comes from Sonic trashing the Nega-Wisp Armor which was powered by that same Hyper-go-on energy that created the black hole, which is conveniently left out.

Ifrit is irrelevant to this conversation as no one used that as a reason for 5-B.

With 7 Emeralds it would have triggered his original programming to destroy Earth. The fact that he gets beaten by Base Sonic would mean that he isn't comparable to a super form. All in all, Ultimate Emerl should not be a separate key.

Yeah this stuff about Generations is also irrelevant and just sounds like a bunch of rambling.

Already explained that the 7 Emeralds would simply trigger Emerl's original programming, he was built with the capability of destroying the whole planet. A single Emerald yields 5-B results in Unleashed and splits the planet in Advance 3. If this is about Black Doom using 5 Emeralds to perform a 6-B feat with the Eclipse Cannon in Shadow the Hedgehog, that shouldn't be a cap considering that base characters with no Emeralds perform much higher feats.

Zamasu Chan also left out Master Core ABIS and Eggrobo.
 
ABIS was rejected for other reasons layed out a while back by me and Matt. Everlasting while he hasn't quite looked at everything else, did say it's ABIS especially that shouldn't be used. It doesn't scale to anyone period and once it actually does reach 5-B everyone dies.

Eggrobo is also too assumptive, and no one's arguing the eventual explosion is 5-B, but Eggrobo has yet to even reach that and once he does, everyone's probably going to die from the explosion anyway. And the feats actually demonstrated so far are only High 6-A.

That calc was already considered to be inconsistent, and while would it be performing a 5-B feat just for being restored. Furthermore, just because Chaos has 1-4 Emeralds absorbed, doesn't mean he's harnessing the full power of each one. Even a fodder Gun Soldier having a Chaos Emerald inside it doesn't make him 5-B. We're not saying 5 Chaos Emeralds cap at 6-B, only that Chaos Emeralds are far too inconsistent to consider. Chaos Emeralds also regularly require all 7 to be together just to perform Tier 5 feats, making any feat done by less than 6 or 7 having any feats 5-B or above outlierish. And, we aren't buying the constant assumptions that "Only 1 Chaos Emerald" caused the planet split at the beginning of Advance 3. It's far too contradictory to the entire plot unless all 7 is what did it in the first place. It's also consistent with Unleashed that something equal to the power of all 7 doing similar feats between Chaos Cannon in Unleashed and Perfect Chaos' flood respectively.

I will also have to go to work soon.
 
No gun soldier nor black arms had any Chaos Emeralds, they were in a cage in Westopolis, Sonic even mentions that you need to defeat the Black Arms to open the cage
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Snip
Click to expand...
  • Starting with Sonic colors, the black hole only engulfed the center of the amusement park because all the planets were detached. That part of the park is not that big whatsoever. You can see the buildings and other structures in the background. Anyway the black hole also moves faster than Sonic runs and it never engulfs the planet before it's destroyed by the wisps. When Sonic gets sucked in he could barely stand even after being protected.
Shadow covered Colors.

  • Next is Ifrit. He was stated to destroy entire worlds but when he fought Sonic, he wasn't fully awakened and not at full power. Even in this weakened state, Ifrit is able to fight Sonic and even harm him. Not to mention there's no proof that Ifrit's statement puts him higher than High 6-A. Not saying he can't, just that it's not elaborate enough.
If Ifrit is in such unknown territory, then you can't use that to debunk 5-B yet also say you can't know for sure. Ifrit being referred to as unstoppable would simply mean that once he got through, he'd be too powerful to stop. He shouldn't even be brought up.

  • Next, Emerl was stated to destroy the planet with all 7 chaos emeralds, base Emerl thrashed both Sonic and Shadow at the same time. No way in hell should they scale to Ultimate Emerl who is actually powered by the emeralds.
As Rodri said, Sonic wasn't serious during the fight whatsoever and Shadow was tired due to him already beating Emerl. If you're going to attempt to disprove scaling, then at least pay attention to what's going on in the story itself. Emerl wouldn't have been much of a fight to begin with.

Now we have the opponents Sonic faced in the past. I know a rebuttal people like to use is "Sonic always gets stronger" and yes he may get stronger but not that much. For example the Egg Emperor needed the combination of Sonic, Tails and Knuckles to defeat it. In Sonic Generations the Egg Emperor returns and even though Sonic alone can fight it, it's still able to harm Sonic. Sonic also fights Shadow and Silver of the past and they're able to harm Sonic. And usually when he does it stronger it's usually only temporary since he goes back to being equal to Tails and Knuckles.

First part: You include how Sonic can handle it alone, then you point out how it can still hurt Sonic. Cool, so I guess Mario should be on a Goomba's level considering they can harm him and all. We never get confirmation if Sonic ever gets so much as touched during the fight, we only know that he's canonically defeated. Second part: It being Shadow and Silver of the past is pure headcanon. Sonic never restores them throughout Generations, yet they show up to encourage Sonic and stay for the birthday party after. Silver even refers to Sonic by name, which he never knew until after Amy rescued him. Unless you want to argue Sonic beat the memory into them, that's false.

  • Finally we have the Chaos Emeralds, where do I even begin. First off the emeralds (1-5) have multiple feats that are below 5-B. 5-B for one emerald raises many questions. Why would Eggman need all 7 Emeralds to destroy a planet? Why would 7 emeralds need to restore damage that one emerald did? Why would Ultimate Emerl need all 7 Emeralds to destroy the world? Why are so many feats with multiple emeralds lower than 5-B? Why would Shadow need all 7 Emeralds to "destroy this damn planet"? If you think is because it's an AoE Fallacy then you're completely wrong because one emerald would have a continental range and supposedly destroy the planet.
Now for quickfire answers.

First: Lower feats do not invalidate higher feats. I guess since Spider-Man can consistently be harmed by street thugs, he's 9-C at best. Second: He doesn't need all 7 to destroy the planet. Eggman wants all 7 to rule over everybody, that's always been his goal. Third: Same reasons why seven Emeralds can do a continent level feat or one can repel the Time Eater. Major inconsistencies. Fourth: Several are either displays of power or general Emerald inconsistencies, whether it be Eggman displaying his power by destroy ing the moon or a weird ass supposedly 6-B feat with 5 Emeralds. Fifth: Shadow gained the Emeralds to try and regain his memory and decided he might as well be a dick and join Black Doom. Destroying the planet was an afterthought of conquering, and nothing more.
 
The 6-B is with 5 emeralds Shake, but that was Black Doom simply wanting to destroy Central City, the Black Arms don't want to destroy the Earth
 
  • ABIS was rejected for other reasons layed out a while back by me and Matt. Everlasting while he hasn't quite looked at everything else, did say it's ABIS especially that shouldn't be used. It doesn't scale to anyone period and once it actually does reach 5-B everyone dies.
Reasons that were argued against, but I suppose people choose not to see that. Everyone dies because them and the planet are being swallowed by a Black Hole, not because it's 5-B. Alongside that, ABIS powered by the five combined Arks of the Cosmos. If Sonic can defeat it, there's literally no reason why that isn't 5-B.

  • Eggrobo is also too assumptive, and no one's arguing the eventual explosion is 5-B, but Eggrobo has yet to even reach that and once he does, everyone's probably going to die from the explosion anyway. And the feats actually demonstrated so far are only High 6-A.
Eggrobo literally requires the least amount of assumptions. Extractor energy = powerful enough to blow up the planet and not leave a trace. Eggman supercharged his mech with said Extractor energy. Supercharged, as in he doesn't need to reach that energy because he already has it. And there's a literal 5-A singularity that it creates. Don't argue that it isn't valid at all, it's invalid due to scaling and being a legitimate black hole.

  • That calc was already considered to be inconsistent, and while would it be performing a 5-B feat just for being restored. Furthermore, just because Chaos has 1-4 Emeralds absorbed, doesn't mean he's harnessing the full power of each one. Even a fodder Gun Soldier having a Chaos Emerald inside it doesn't make him 5-B. We're not saying 5 Chaos Emeralds cap at 6-B, only that Chaos Emeralds are far too inconsistent to consider. Chaos Emeralds also regularly require all 7 to be together just to perform Tier 5 feats, making any feat done by less than 6 or 7 having any feats 5-B or above outlierish. And, we aren't buying the constant assumptions that "Only 1 Chaos Emerald" caused the planet split at the beginning of Advance 3. It's far too contradictory to the entire plot unless all 7 is what did it in the first place. It's also consistent with Unleashed that something equal to the power of all 7 doing similar feats between Chaos Cannon in Unleashed and Perfect Chaos' flood respectively.
Difference is that Chaos is a living being that harnesses the power of Chaos Energy rather than a random G.U.N mech, and goes through a constamt change of form each time he absorbs one. As in, takes it's power to amplofy itself and become stronger. You're arguing for one being 5-B? Then how about one being Low 2-C because it repelled and harmed the Time Eater? If we're gonna repeatedly call out the low ends, we might as well bring up the higher ones. And, again, there's no evidence to prove he used all 7 when we see one. Not all seven, just one.

I'd also like to add that Sonic being 5-B lines up with why he's able to harm Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia by using weak points, as Sonic would be 11x weaker than them.
 
@DDM

ABIS is powered by all five of the Ark of the Cosmos which created the black hole and Sonic defeated it. The black hole is outright 5-B.

"It uses the planet's energy, and the destructive force it produces cannot be measured!" -Original JP version after the Extractor already had the 5-B statement. Makes no sense to assume it absorbed only enough energy to be thousands of times weaker.

A GUN soldier holding a Chaos Emerald =/= he is harnessing its powers.

No, the assumption is that Eggman had all 7 when it is explicitly shown in the cutscene that there is only one Emerald. Prove your claim that Eggman had all 7 with him by showing actual scans from the game.
 
VioletVoid100 said:
Question: How does one even feel the need to continue debating the same arguments once their arguments got shredded to bits by several other people?

Just curious.
Click to expand...
At this point it's just going in circles (again) from the personal bias against/for any upgrade for the Sonic franchise (what a surprise). I get it we're dealing with SONIC! we need to be as objective and as accurate when scaling such a poplar (yet inconsistent) franchise however it's clear double standards when plenty of points in support of the upgrade haven't been "debunked" and the only opposition for the 5-B upgrade comes from a subjective PoV yet other franchises have been upgraded/downgraded for much less than the points provided for the upgrade.

At this point, I have very little trust in the process if this is going to happen on every Sonic thread (May Tikal help us IF the next mainline Sonic game gives us clear tier 2 super feats or tier 5 base feats and yet some folks will still bring the outlier card... :/).
 
Since when did making a joke become toxicity?
 
It speaks volumes when the creator of all people has to unfollow her thread. Time and time again the confrontational attitude, keeps happening again and again. And I'm not talking about the jokes here, I'm talking about EVERYTHING. The stubbornness of some people which leads into others being frustrated. The jokes that can be misinterpreted and get people to be offended which leads into discussions of morality rather than Sonic. The constant need to remind everybody to be respectful to each other. THE EVERYTHING.

Think about it this way. Executor N0 is a very well respected staff here in and is easily one of the most knowledgeable people regarding Sonic, even surpassing the ones that actually argues about Sonic on this wiki. If he were to ever come by and help us out, then I guarantee the upgrades would've gone a lot more smoothly. But no he doesn't, because of the atmosphere the Sonic threads have he refuses to help us, making our journey even harder. And I'm not blaming the dude, I completely agree with his thought process. What I'm trying to say is our mindsets and attitude towards Sonic CRT is effectively making it harder to upgrade Sonic in the first place, I would tell everyone including myself to leave out our emotions out of this thread and just focus on Sonic, but at this point I know it ain't going to stop.

So you know what? **** this I am outta here. Anyone that is tired of this kind of bickering can come with me but the rest of you can keep wallowing in your continuous cycle of accusations and toxicity until Sonic does or does not get upgraded.
 
the reason sonic beat Ultimate Emerl when base emerl thrashed him and shadow, is because sonic has the abilitiy to improve his fighting ability, by just fighting with some quickly, it's been proven in forces, generations and other games, Egg Robo.s AP was so powerful it can't be measured, Eggman is able to measure forces which can destroy universes planets and stars yet he couldn't measure this force, also it literally takes energy from the planet that's planet level, Sonic literally survived a black caused by a wisp, which that same wisp called violet void is strong enough to bend space and time in general a long with the fact sonic surviing be near the black hole was calced to be high 5-A, here's a link:

Dark Gaia is an outlier, since it relatively puts Supersonic at 5-B or high 6-A, which is contradicted by the 2-C to 2-B stuff Supersonic can do, generally speaking I just want a 4-A upgrade to Base sonic and possibly 2-B upgrade for Supersonic
 
Barring the Sonic Riders one which i don't understand nor have I played the game, i agree with the rest of the upgrade.

The Emeralds being 5-B individually is not inconsistent due to Shadow scaling past one emeralds 'true power' by disregarding it to empower his offense and to instead rely on his forking base physical attacks after he regained his full strength when it was apparent he said he would've needed its power beforehand to defeat Emerl. Emerl being able to destroy the 'whole planet' without Gerald factoring in him getting plugged into the final egg blaster after he obtains 7 Emeralds. Sonic beating him, quickly even, cements his rating as being greater than a planet buster in base.
 
Aren't the emeralds able to bust stars, just by harnessing the power, like the eclipse canon? Plus base Sonic has the ability to improve his strength and physical combat up a notch, and beat villains who were originally above him, without any special ability, so that's why Ehe can beat Emerl now, just by fighting a bit his power can grow from 5-B to 4-B
 
The Axiom of Virgo said:
VioletVoid100 said:
Question: How does one even feel the need to continue debating the same arguments once their arguments got shredded to bits by several other people?

Just curious.
Click to expand...
At this point it's just going in circles (again) from the personal bias against/for any upgrade for the Sonic franchise (what a surprise). I get it we're dealing with SONIC! we need to be as objective and as accurate when scaling such a poplar (yet inconsistent) franchise however it's clear double standards when plenty of points in support of the upgrade haven't been "debunked" and the only opposition for the 5-B upgrade comes from a subjective PoV yet other franchises have been upgraded/downgraded for much less than the points provided for the upgrade.

At this point, I have very little trust in the process if this is going to happen on every Sonic thread (May Tikal help us IF the next mainline Sonic game gives us clear tier 2 super feats or tier 5 base feats and yet some folks will still bring the outlier card... :/).
Click to expand...
Not really answering my question exactly...
 
This would go much smoother if Azathoth was active, but he's busy with RL Anyway, 4-A base Sonic is an absolute no. 5-B is the maximum tier we "could" upgrade them to, but it's better to wait for someone like Matt to give a more elaborate refute. I don't have enough time at the moment, but normally I would also.
 
Yeah, I want 4-A base Sonic too, but it's a pipe dream for now

Anyways, let's hope to finish this because i'm getting kinda sick of this.
 
4-A base osnic isn't contradicted at all, is it a no because you like to downplay, I'm just kidding but in all seriousness I think you should take into account how many tier 4 feats base sonic has
 
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