• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Sonic the Hedgehog: The Shared Universe Conundrum

Status
Not open for further replies.
ShakeResounding

ShakeResounding

He/Him
7,951
6,155
Hello, everyone! Good to see your ugly faces.

This is labelled as a CRT, and that's true in-part, but this is also mainly a discussion about how things are gonna go moving forward.

With all the shit going on this year, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't hear about the statements regarding Sonic Team's vision regarding its titular character. To make a long story short, Iizuka is pushing to make the Games, IDW comics, and the pseudo-released Sonic Prime TV show to fall under one canon. This is also something that's being substantiated by Ian Flynn [for more context, here's the beginning of this train of thought]. Additionally, Flynn has confirmed things such as Mania Sonic actually just being Past Sonic again (with some bonus confirmation that IDW takes place Post-Mania) that fall in-like with this vision of there being one Sonic (Paramount obviously excluded).
  • Important Note: Bumblekast is being used because it allows Ian to provide insight on what's going on behind the scenes at Sonic Team. We are not using it for any powerscaling related matters, and I highly advise that you don't use it to pursue any goofy powerscaling Sonic questions you may have. If you're gonna ask him stuff, save the 5 dollars for actual cool questions lol
This is something that would heavily change how the profiles are handled from here on out. As such, we've decided that this is a decision that goes beyond just a group of verse supporters. I'm aware that there are people who cast doubt on readily accepting IDW and Prime as canon to the Games, while others are more than ready to accommodate for such a shift. And so, we need the community's opinion at-large. We need YOU!

Leading us here, to this thread. Let's begin.

The Proposals​


Proposal 1, The Merge: The Games, IDW, and Prime are merged, IDW and Prime becoming secondary canon to the Games. As stated by Ian, we ignore any contradictions to the Games that IDW has and treat it as one canon ala the Sonic movies (Primary Canon) and its novels (Secondary Canon). The IDW verse page is deleted, Prime is deemed canon to the Games, and the verse w/ its characters become labelled as "Sonic the Hedgehog (Main Continuity)".

Proposal 2, The One-Way: Prefacing this by saying I'm not sure if this is a suggestion that is actually allowed, but somebody mentioned it prior, so take this with a grain of salt. The Games subsume IDW's events as canon, allowing the Game cast to gain the additions and/or feats we see from the comics, while the IDW Comics continue to be treated how they are now (mostly independent of the Games). The Game profiles are labelled as "Sonic the Hedgehog (Main Continuity)" like in Proposal 1. Prime is scrutinized as need-be to determine its canonicity.
  • For Staff: Is this an actually valid option, or is this something that's disallowed?

Proposal 3, The Split: The Games and IDW are left separate to account for the discrepancies and differing strength portrayals between the two media. The IDW verse page remains, and Prime is scrutinized as needed like in Proposal 2.

And that's it. No extravagant additions, no upgrades, just a discussion about how Sonic's continuity will be treated after this thread is said and done. So, with all that out the way, let's discuss.

Edit: Thanks to MysticMania for his comment providing insight on Sonic Prime's canonicity. All that's left to sort is the Games and IDW.

Tally:​


Proposal 1: Mr.Cinos15, The Axiom of Virgo, Dalesean027 (Fine with both Proposal 1 and 2), FantaRin The First, MysticMania, GlaceonGamez471, Bobsician, Theuser789, TheKingStrategist13, DarkDragonMedeus, ElixirBlue (With a sigh), TioKill

Proposal 2: Kirbonic Pikmin (Also fine with Proposal 1), Tipper17, LaserPrecision, Maverick Zero X (Is fine with Proposal 1)

Proposal 3: Rokim21

Neutral: Elizhaa (Is fine with Proposal 1)

Feel free to comment.
 
Last edited:
As the person who suggested this thread and disagrees with fully merging the canons, Ill pick 2. In terms of what I agree with the most 2, followed by 1, followed 3.

Reason behind 2 rather than three or one is because it feels wrong to dismiss all anti-feats that are bound to come from the IDE comics where Ian has made clear that he thinks Sonic is far weaker than portrayed in the games and is only like planetary with help in Super. So rather than dismissing the feats or downgrading the game verse on the basis of idea low showings, we can just assume Sonic went through almost identical events minus all the anti feats, granting him the same abilities as his IDE counterpart but not the anti feats. IDW Sonic and friends can keep their profiles as thy are now. Without all games abilities and as weak as they're portrayed by Ian
 
Agreed on 3, trying to merge things just seems like a nightmare in the making and frankly, IDW does nothing but shown a wildly weaker Sonic (at least in comparison to where VSBW puts Game Sonic) in terms of stats/haxes, it contribute minimally to anything really.
And as for Prime, it's a bit early to call dips on it, but it likely also will be very discrepant like IDW is in this regard.
 
Rokim21 said:
Agreed on 3, trying to merge things just seems like a nightmare in the making and frankly, IDW does nothing but shown a wildly weaker Sonic (at least in comparison to where VSBW puts Game Sonic) in terms of stats/haxes, it contribute minimally to anything really.
And as for Prime, it's a bit early to call dips on it, but it likely also will be very discrepant like IDW is in this regard.
Click to expand...
While I agree it doesn't contribute much outside of abilities, it further expands on some topics/lore within the series. This site is made for indexing series comprehensively. So I feel even if changes are minor, we should strive for accuracy and changes when possible.
 
IIRC, some of the IDW comics mention the classic era Genesis games being canon to those comics in a previous discussion, though the part I was unsure about was IDW being canon to the games. I am neutral for now on the other end but I think games being canon to IDW is fine.
 
Hm. Count me on the side of Proposal 1. Like other people have said, if Sega is trying to merge everything, we should follow suit.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Yeah P1 seems to be the overall most reliable option if we take everything at face value about Sega wanting IDW, Games and Prime to share the same cosmology and canon.

Also pre-emptive dipps on merging IDW and Game Blaze's profiles.
Click to expand...
Btw I'm fine with P2 regardless, I only picked P1 as a general guideline for Sega's thought process towards Sonic lore and as a sign in good faith but if it would help alleviate the inevitable contradictions in the future then I don't mind P2 either (tbh consistency and Sonic don't exactly go hand in hand with each other afterall).
 
Proposal 1, for me. I feel what Iizuka and Ian both say lend to the idea that games, IDW, and Prime all happen within one continuity, and, personally, I feel proposal 1 works with that idea as well as can be done, so to speak.
 
Is there any statement, scans, or a detailed canonicity blog that supports any of these proposals?

As an outsider looking to see how this goes for another verse on the wiki, and for indexing and informational purposes.

That's important stuff/information
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Is there any statement, scans, or a detailed canonicity blog that supports any of these proposals?

As an outsider looking to see how this goes for another verse on the wiki, and for indexing and informational purposes.

That's important stuff/information
Click to expand...
uh

The statements are linked in the original post. Its direct statements from the main director of the series, the head writer of the comic series & Sonic Frontiers, and SEGA themselves have formed a team entirely dedicated to the unification of Sonic media & ensuring canonicity/continuity is properly handled.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
uh

The statements are linked in the original post. Its direct statements from the main director of the series, the head writer of the comic series & Sonic Frontiers, and SEGA themselves have formed a team entirely dedicated to the unification of Sonic media & ensuring canonicity/continuity is properly handled.
Click to expand...
I'm blind oops carry on

Sorry about that lol
 
I'm tossing together a small Sonic VS thing currently, and I actually have this thing addressed in there! I'll drop two links and a few images to go along with this really quick.
 
Last edited:
https://www.sonicstadium.org/2022/0...ied-sonic-experience-sonic-stadium-interview/
In this interview, Iizuka states these.
There's also this interview, in which he states, "We plan to distribute it on Netflix in 2022. Sonic Boom featured a setting that was exclusive to the cartoon, but this time it will be based on Modern Sonic from the games. Man of Action Entertainment, who has a lot of experience in American animation, is in the process of directing it". When he is asked if there's the possibility of a Prime game adaptation, he responds with, "There are no plans for that at the moment. In the first place, Sonic Prime takes place on the same settings seen in the games and will feature Modern Sonic, so I don’t think it is necessary to do that now."
 
ShakeResounding said:
Proposal 2, The One-Way: Prefacing this by saying I'm not sure if this is a suggestion that is actually allowed, but somebody mentioned it prior, so take this with a grain of salt. The Games subsume IDW's events as canon, allowing the Game cast to gain the additions and/or feats we see from the comics, while the IDW Comics continue to be treated how they are now (mostly independent of the Games). The Game profiles are labelled as "Sonic the Hedgehog (Main Continuity)" like in Proposal 1. Prime is scrutinized as need-be to determine its canonicity.
  • For Staff: Is this an actually valid option, or is this something that's disallowed?
Click to expand...
Parts of this I like, others not so much.

Changing the Games into "(Main Continuity)" is the best course, no question.

But... Like, I'm not trying to be the downer, but how will the "absorption" be handled? I'd prefer IDW remained as with its own verse, cause you know... just in case something happens... again... but how will the transfer of feats be handled if the community goes with this option? We can't outright ignore the lower feats.
 
ElixirBlue said:
Parts of this I like, others not so much.

Changing the Games into "(Main Continuity)" is the best course, no question.

But... Like, I'm not trying to be the downer, but how will the "absorption" be handled? I'd prefer IDW remained as with its own verse, cause you know... just in case something happens... again... but how will the transfer of feats be handled if the community goes with this option? We can't outright ignore the lower feats.
Click to expand...
The Games would likely override IDW's inconsistencies.

This is an equivalency that absolutely nobody in this thread will understand, but another franchise that has something similar to this is Touhou. Touhou is split into a PC-98 era containing the first 5 games, and a Windows Era containing everything else in the series. ZUN, the main creator of the series, counts the PC-98 games as canon "so long as they dont contradict the Windows Canon." So anything established in the Windows games, such as differences to backstories or cosmology, etc, would override what's in the PC-98 games should they be contradictory, but what's in the PC-98 games would support the Windows games should they not be contradictory.

So it'd probably be a case similar to that. What's in IDW, so long as its not contradictory, would be counted as canon to the main series. The consistency of feats in the games would override IDW portraying the verse at a lower level, for instance.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
The Games would likely override IDW's inconsistencies.

This is an equivalency that absolutely nobody in this thread will understand, but another franchise that has something similar to this is Touhou. Touhou is split into a PC-98 era containing the first 5 games, and a Windows Era containing everything else in the series. ZUN, the main creator of the series, counts the PC-98 games as canon "so long as they dont contradict the Windows Canon." So anything established in the Windows games, such as differences to backstories or cosmology, etc, would override what's in the PC-98 games should they be contradictory, but what's in the PC-98 games would support the Windows games should they not be contradictory.

So it'd probably be a case similar to that. What's in IDW, so long as its not contradictory, would be counted as canon to the main series. The consistency of feats in the games would override IDW portraying the verse at a lower level, for instance.
Click to expand...
It doesn't really make sense to completely ignore all feats from IDW if we accept it as canons and allow the game counterparts to reap all the benefits without any of the negatives. It's why I think proposal 2, partially merging the two (Keeping IDW its own thing, but the game went through said events) would work best. Imo anyway.
 
LaserPrecision said:
It doesn't really make sense to completely ignore all feats from IDW if we accept it as canons and allow the game counterparts to reap all the benefits without any of the negatives. It's why I think proposal 2, partially merging the two (Keeping IDW its own thing, but the game went through said events) would work best. Imo anyway.
Click to expand...
That's why I lean more towards proposal 2 myself. They're still canon to the games and the benefits can be reaped, but it allows for there to be a specific documentation of IDW only abilities/stats since they're usually depicted as lower.
 
Proposal 1 is best, at worst the games just have higher priority canon-wise.
Concerns regarding powers and stuff from a particular form of media can be handled by just having citations, and Sonic pages already have some of the best quality on the site as is, so I wouldn't worry on that (good job BTW).
 
What are the general ideas we're expecting to ignore or discard from IDW for a merge?
 
I'm new so I'm not sure if I can voice on this, but I agree with proposal 2 the most, however proposal 1 is also fine
 
ElixirBlue said:
What are the general ideas we're expecting to ignore or discard from IDW for a merge?
Click to expand...
1. Blatant anti-feats that don't line up with the stats from the games
2. Any contradictory continuity (say, if Surge appears in the games down the line and has a different backstory to her IDW counterpart, the game counterparts' story and feats would take priority for the gameverse

probably something like that I imagine

Ian himself literally said that as long as things don't contradict they'll be canon.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
1. Blatant anti-feats that don't line up with the stats from the games
Click to expand...
What determines an anti-feat? Would it be the amount of feats each tier have?

Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Ian himself literally said that as long as things don't contradict they'll be canon.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but that wouldn't necessarily support the higher-end stuff if thats the goal. He did have a hand in writing Eggman stating to himself about Sonic reaching Mach 1 was impressive. Plus, Sonic was knocked unconsciouses (for a small bit) by being flinged into a cliff side, which could be interpreted as consistent with IDW feats.
 
Last edited:
We could just calc more feats from the games for consistency all around to support this conversion/merging, that'd be more work but if it needs to be done for consistency and accuracy then I mean we could get it done overtime
 
ElixirBlue said:
What determines an anti-feat? Would it be the amount of feats each tier have?


Yeah, but that wouldn't necessarily support the higher-end stuff if thats the goal. He did have a hand in writing Eggman stating to himself about Sonic reaching Mach 1 was impressive. Plus, Sonic was knocked unconsciouses (for a small bit) by being flinged into a cliff side, which could be interpreted as consistent with IDW feats.
Click to expand...
The thing is, IDW doesn't really contradict Super Form higher tier stats much. There's been no revisionist history on Solaris, Time Eater, Egg Wizard/Egg Salamander, or any of the Forces/Mania stuff, and Super Forms have only really appeared a couple times in IDW and haven't accrued massive anti-feats.

And to be fair, he was flung into a cliffside by an entity we have rated at 2B while he was his base form. If anything him surviving that is an outlier.
 
Agree with proposal 1. IDW only has lower feats because it doesn't have the 30 year history that the games have. If you cherrypick certain games Sonic would also appear to be weak, too.
 
In terms of power discrepancies, for Supers it's a little less messy. Time Eater's throwaway panel becomes a Low 2-C callback, as it's not treated as such now because it was deemed an outlier for IDW's Supers. It's not as if Super Forms are needed entirely into the ground. Hell, in case we're forgetting, Starline confirms they canonically vary.

Also, if we're talking about Base feat discrepancies, what of the Emerald-Amped Deadly Six? They aren't Tier 5 now due to us being unable to assume the feat was 1-to-1 with Unleashed. Incorporating IDW into the Games retroactively makes some feats as impressive (Low 4-Cs amped by the Chaos Emeralds) or as bullshit (Master Overlord) as their Game counterparts.

There has been and will be feats in IDW that suggest a lower level of power compared to what we have, but that goes for a lot of fiction. Meteor-level Arceus, Super Goku scratched by a bullet, the Chad G.U.N. truck, you've heard it all before. As such, I don't feel it would be disingenuous to have the Games feats take priority in Proposal 1.
 
ShakeResounding said:
In terms of power discrepancies, for Supers it's a little less messy. Time Eater's throwaway panel becomes a Low 2-C callback, as it's not treated as such now because it was deemed an outlier for IDW's Supers. It's not as if Super Forms are needed entirely into the ground. Hell, in case we're forgetting, Starline confirms they canonically vary.

Also, if we're talking about Base feat discrepancies, what of the Emerald-Amped Deadly Six? They aren't Tier 5 now due to us being unable to assume the feat was 1-to-1 with Unleashed. Incorporating IDW into the Games retroactively makes some feats as impressive (Low 4-Cs amped by the Chaos Emeralds) or as bullshit (Master Overlord) as their Game counterparts.

There has been and will be feats in IDW that suggest a lower level of power compared to what we have, but that goes for a lot of fiction. Meteor-level Arceus, Super Goku scratched by a bullet, the Chad G.U.N. truck, you've heard it all before. As such, I don't feel it would be disingenuous to have the Games feats take priority in Proposal 1.
Click to expand...
Just admit you want tier 2 Super Neo Metal Sonic and move on.
 
I will say this, if Suggestion 1 goes through, I would advise that the IDW Pages are backed up into Blogs or something of the sort; Not to offend SEGA, but they don't have the best track record with this sort of thing. Should anything happen that leads to SEGA splitting Continuities again, it would be more beneficial to have these Pages already saved somewhere to be brought back, than to have to do them all over again. It's simply a precautionary action I advise is taken; Though, if this is seen as far too cautious/tedious/pointless, I understand.

Besides that, I agree with Suggestion 1 Now let's get Tier 2 Super Neo Metal Sonic- You all know you want it
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Should anything happen that leads to SEGA splitting Continuities again, it would be more beneficial to have these Pages already saved somewhere to be brought back, than to have to do them all over again.
Click to expand...
Two steps ahead of ya, man! They're backed up nice and tidy!
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Just admit you want tier 2 Super Neo Metal Sonic and move on.
Click to expand...
Not what I was getting at but that IS a plus now that you mention it
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

omegabronic
"Powerful to the very core": Chaos Emeralds additions (Plus a minor fix to Sonic's inteligence)
2
Replies
48
Views
2K
omegabronic
omegabronic
Eseseso
Sonic General CRT
2
Replies
52
Views
3K
GlaceonGamez471
GlaceonGamez471
koopa3144
Delivering the boom! (Sonic Boom AP revision)
2
Replies
62
Views
5K
koopa3144
koopa3144
Peptocoptr27
Catching Up To The Games: Archie Sonic Speed Upgrades + Low 2-C Post Genesis Wave
2
Replies
78
Views
5K
Accelerated_Evolution
Accelerated_Evolution
The Badniks Need an Upgrade
Replies
19
Views
940
MontyMoleLoreMaster
Back
Top