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Sonic the hedgehog abilities
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I don't see any reason to wait, just address the arguments for aca type 4.
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- #83
I’m waiting for Omega to respond on the End points before I make my comment towards type 4.
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you mean the type 2 and perception manip stuff?
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- #85
No the Abstract existence and the Nonexistent Physiology stuff The End has. It’s at the bottom of my OP.
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agree with this
well, it being said to be nothing seens to imply that.......it is nothing, wouldn't it?
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- #87
It also says it’s infinite during that line too which in of itself is too vague. What does that even mean to be infinite and nothing? Does the games or devs elaborate on what it means?
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May I see the statement? Scrolling through the profile and I could not find it myself.
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will copilate a couple of its statements about itself, it will take a little while, so be patient i ask
DaMonkeMan
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Pretty good, I agree.
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nvm forget it, it is a bunch of talk for its abstract existence, i guess that the "i am nothing" is too vague, so it can be removed, however, i have found more evidence for its' to be type 1 however
being the "embodiment of death" is for its avatar, that we know it has due to this dialogue:
"You strike this incarnation with all your might. It changes nothing." "No matter what form I take" basically saying that destroying its physical body would do nothing to stop it, implying that it is just an avatar rather then the end itself, with it always coming back in a different form/Avatar
and from the AE page:
"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." this seens to fall for the type 1 aspect of it
being the "embodiment of death" is for its avatar, that we know it has due to this dialogue:
"You strike this incarnation with all your might. It changes nothing." "No matter what form I take" basically saying that destroying its physical body would do nothing to stop it, implying that it is just an avatar rather then the end itself, with it always coming back in a different form/Avatar
and from the AE page:
"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." this seens to fall for the type 1 aspect of it
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- #92
Incarnation doesn’t help for Abstract Existence much, no matter what form I take also just sounds more like shapeshifting more than AE it doesn’t mention he’s tied to an idea that lets him be immortal or control said abstract thing.
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in this case it does because it is in reference to sonic defeating/destroying it, it can't be shapeshifting if it is refering to the fact that "it" being destroyed will not matter as it will come back always with a new "form"/avatar
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- #94
That does go against what the devs says about it being the embodiment of death itself when an embodiment means a physical form.
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What points still need to be addressed?
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Abstract existence, NEP, and type 4 acausality.
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The scan for this needs to be on the profile
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The avatar is the embodiment of the true self
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- #99
Is that what the developers said? Cause again there’s no translation on what they’re saying in their livestream.
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bump
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To be frank the AE is more so implied than stated, with The End being hinted multiple times as being a fundamental force of the universe with its dialogue and the statement about its form changing to the viewer depending on what they see as death hinting that the said fundamental force is death, at this point i dunno which type should be tbh
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- #103
At best it’s type 2 given type 1 is you lack a physical form to begin with. If it’s only implied then that’s possible abstract existence at best.
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Ok, possibly AE type 2 it is then
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Now it lacks NEP and Acausuality type 4 I think
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Alright, time to address the type 4 acausality stuff.
First off there's no mention whatsoever that the base forms of the characters cannot function in the realm, all that's shown is that they're floating in the air, which at best from that showcase is just warped gravity kicking in. Transforming into the super forms to stop this just grants them resistance to gravity manipulation. The timer going out of loop also doesn't tell me anything about the super forms functioning on a different set of cause and effect rules, just that time just acts weird, which again at best would only apply to natural residents of the reverie zone, not the super forms unless specified they can function in these different rules.
Solaris not being able to predict the attacks doesn't really prove acausality either, ignoring how he doesn't have any form of precognition on his page so this argument doesn't have much ground as even if he had precog, this would only grant the super forms precog resistance. Unless there's any statements that super forms function on different set of laws than normal, I'm not seeing type 4 from the points in this thread given the nature of the ability requires actual statements on the nature of one's being rather than some visual showcase as it can be interpreted in any other way.
First off there's no mention whatsoever that the base forms of the characters cannot function in the realm, all that's shown is that they're floating in the air, which at best from that showcase is just warped gravity kicking in. Transforming into the super forms to stop this just grants them resistance to gravity manipulation. The timer going out of loop also doesn't tell me anything about the super forms functioning on a different set of cause and effect rules, just that time just acts weird, which again at best would only apply to natural residents of the reverie zone, not the super forms unless specified they can function in these different rules.
Solaris not being able to predict the attacks doesn't really prove acausality either, ignoring how he doesn't have any form of precognition on his page so this argument doesn't have much ground as even if he had precog, this would only grant the super forms precog resistance. Unless there's any statements that super forms function on different set of laws than normal, I'm not seeing type 4 from the points in this thread given the nature of the ability requires actual statements on the nature of one's being rather than some visual showcase as it can be interpreted in any other way.
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I'm not a Sonic supporter, so I'm just going to try to say what I understood about Acausuality type 4.
As time at all times goes back and forth, cause and effect too.
For example, if I broke a jar in that zone, time would go backwards and the jar would be normal.
And the same thing would be for my movements, it would be impossible to move in that zone because at any moment and time it would be going back and forth frantically, so it would make sense for Sonic to stay still without being able to do anything.
So when he uses super form, he manages to move around and all their actions remain unchanged, like picking up the rings (in theory if you picked them up, time would go back sometime reversing this action) and also causing damage to the boss (in theory all damage from the boss would end up being reversed by the zone's time going backwards in moments, as the damage dealt would be reversed by the zone's time)
That's what I understood.
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Solaris’s physiology basically gives him a better version of precognition, unlike precog it can’t be fooled by changing destiny because Solaris exists in the future physically, and can see exactly where Sonic is going to be at every point in time because Solaris is also there. The only way Sonic could still get past his defenses is if Sonic just straight up attacked faster than when time says Sonic attacked.
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- #109
@Phsccarvalho that just sounds like a resistance to time manipulation, and plus Acausality is something you need some statements to prove since type 4 in particular means you don’t function on the same laws as the normal world. Unless the Super forms have anything like that I’m not seeing type 4 for them.
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You aren't getting statments in a game with no dialogue like Sonic Mania, unless there's something in Egg Reverie description in the Enciclopedia.
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I mean, I understand this thing to be resistance to time manipulation, since in super Sonic mode he can move normally.
But what about the things Sonic interacts with? For example, even if I am resistant to time manipulation, if I were to punch someone or break a wall, it would end up being reversed because of time going backwards.
But in Sonic's case, no, since the Boss's life does not come back because of time going back and neither do the rings absorbed by Sonic come back out of him because of time going backwards.
In addition, it has the things below.
On the wiki of life there is a description of the Zone:
But I couldn't find the source of it so it's not very reliable if it's an official description.
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@Theuser789 Then I don't really see this being type 4 acausality tbh, at best it looks like resistance to gravity and time manipulation.
@Phsccarvalho That's still just time manipulation resistance if he can resist the flow of time going in reverse for him and not lose his rings. Also time and space not existing, even if that was stated in the game wouldn't apply to the super forms since they're not the natural residents of this world to begin with.
@Phsccarvalho That's still just time manipulation resistance if he can resist the flow of time going in reverse for him and not lose his rings. Also time and space not existing, even if that was stated in the game wouldn't apply to the super forms since they're not the natural residents of this world to begin with.
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Interesting.
If I punch a steel bar and it gets dented and remains dented even with the flow of time going backwards (before I punch the steel bar), would that still be just resistance to time manipulation? Even though the effect of the action remained despite the reversing trend?
It's not a question for Sonic, but for a general one, for me to clear up that doubt.
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no one is manipulating time at all, that is just how time works on the Egg reverie zone's reality, their "law of time" per say
the entirety of the Egg Reverie Zone is them working on a universe with different laws as explained above, even tho time goes backwards and fowards, which would make the actions and causes also go crazy, all the actions that they perform stay performed even tho they should be undone as soon as they are made per how time, and by proxy cause and effect, have been shown to work in the zone, so they should qualify, besides the solaris support point
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@Phsccarvalho if there's little to no context to how they're able to do it, just that they can despite the time dilation being messed up in the area, its a resistance feat at best.
@omegabronic the zone is manipulating time though, an individual not manipulating it doesn't disprove my point that them being unfazed by the time fuckery just sounds like time manipulation resistance.
That hardly counts as acausality though, the point of acausality type 4 is you're stated to function completely different from the normal rules of the world. Time being messed up and all that jazz for the realm would only grant type 4 Acausality to the natural residents of said world. Super Sonic and the rest aren't natural residents, they just have a boost that lets them move around normally and not be fazed, which is at best resistance to gravity and time hax without any further context.
@omegabronic the zone is manipulating time though, an individual not manipulating it doesn't disprove my point that them being unfazed by the time fuckery just sounds like time manipulation resistance.
That hardly counts as acausality though, the point of acausality type 4 is you're stated to function completely different from the normal rules of the world. Time being messed up and all that jazz for the realm would only grant type 4 Acausality to the natural residents of said world. Super Sonic and the rest aren't natural residents, they just have a boost that lets them move around normally and not be fazed, which is at best resistance to gravity and time hax without any further context.
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no it isn't, the zone time is just like that naturally
them resisting time manipulation wouldn't stop the actions they perform on other things to be completely undone and redone every moment
can you explain why? When the chars are shown working on the laws of said world would imply that they function on the samw laws as said worls
As i said, resistance wouldn't be enough for his actions to remain done normally there
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You just admit the zone’s time is messy like that naturally, meaning it’s distorting time. So resisting the effects of the reverie zone would accomplish just that.
Because there’s no statements that suggest they function on different laws in the first place, you’re making an assumption that the only reason they’re able to function in that realm is the Acausality when nothing remotely implies that. If there’s no explanation for that beyond just the visual showcase we take it as a resistance feat at best.
Yes it can, there’s several series that has distorted realms and the characters can withstand being in there without needing to be an Acausal being to fight off its effects.
Because there’s no statements that suggest they function on different laws in the first place, you’re making an assumption that the only reason they’re able to function in that realm is the Acausality when nothing remotely implies that. If there’s no explanation for that beyond just the visual showcase we take it as a resistance feat at best.
Yes it can, there’s several series that has distorted realms and the characters can withstand being in there without needing to be an Acausal being to fight off its effects.
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No, it means that the timeflow there is different from the normal universe, that's it
no it wouldn't, or else every ring sonic geta there would moments after get un absorbed and then re absorbed due to how time works and its relation to cause and effect
we see that they work differently, and i believe i have explained very thought out why a simple resistance of sonic to time manip wouldn't be enough for his actions and effects to remain normal there
no because it doesn't solve the problem and leaves stuff about what we see unexplained
Most of the series you linked have acausal chars, nonetheless, bring specific examples, i am not going to search entire verse pages just to see 1 example of what you are arguing
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Is that remotely stated that the rings are warped all over the place and that Sonic can fight off that effect of the rings being warped everywhere because of his existence in super form? Because that’s needed for your argument to work.
It doesn’t, being unaffected by time would already accomplish that.
the human hunters in DMC, The Belmonts and any human hunters in Castlevania, literally anyone that isn’t a monster in final fantasy, and everyone in BlazBlue just goes to a realm that has everything distorted, time, existence, etc. and they’re fine because they just resist the effects of the place, not because of an Acausal thing, otherwise everyone and their mother in all of these franchises would be type 4 for that reason alone.
It doesn’t, being unaffected by time would already accomplish that.
the human hunters in DMC, The Belmonts and any human hunters in Castlevania, literally anyone that isn’t a monster in final fantasy, and everyone in BlazBlue just goes to a realm that has everything distorted, time, existence, etc. and they’re fine because they just resist the effects of the place, not because of an Acausal thing, otherwise everyone and their mother in all of these franchises would be type 4 for that reason alone.
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Why would that be needed? It id logical, time going back and forth = the state/cause and efgect of things also go back and forth, the ring collected would go back to a previous stage of not being absorbed and then go to the state of being absorbed again, which wouldn't able to be solved with a simple resistance by sonic
It wouldn't since it would be a resistance for him, it wouldn't matter for the other things non related to him that are affect by his sphere of causality
Define "distorted" because the way time isn't distorted in the egg reverie zone, time is just like that normally, with the way it functions being very specific of it going back and forth flowing non linearly, give me examples that show that the places in those verses are anywhere similar to what the egg reverie zone has shown
Besides, the solaris point would warrant them a time of acausality by default since he is in all of time and yet can't see the actions the superforms do
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