Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Promestein]

I'm having a hard time following all this circular logic and gibberish, so what I'll dwell on...

Kaguya's infinite corridor, why would it be an infinite spacetime? Again, she's really just looping space, so knowing that space affects time she'd just be looping time there too

 

[Mobi2]

I'm having a hard time following all this circular logic and gibberish, so what I'll dwell on...

Kaguya's infinite corridor, why would it be an infinite spacetime? Again, she's really just looping space, so knowing that space affects time she'd just be looping time there too

I went back to UliL ps4 version to look at it again. I didn't see much of anything that would imply a spatial/temporal loop. All it says is linking minuscule gaps in space-time. You could link something and not have it be looped. Contextually with her time manipulation there's nothing to suggest looping is a part of it her's either a time stop and just "speeding up" time. Not saying it's a feat (it's just space-time hax), but it doesn't seem like space-time looping nor did any characters suggest it.

 

[Mobi2]

Here's the link to the scenario should be stage 3 I believe. I figured it's better to post the full context instead of just snippets of it.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Urban_Legend_in_Limbo/Story/Reisen's_Scenario
It's especially strange when Miko said it's a power that infinitely links it as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm pretty burnt out on VS stuff today so I'll just repost what Doge already said about Kaguya's corridor.

Also, I'm not sure if this is even necessary for getting AP from dreams since we can just look to realms that are much less debatably infinite (like Hell and Higan). IIRC Mobi2 already posted scans showing that Doremy can control all dreams, which would include ones that have full recreations of these Otherworlds. And since her ability is explicitly creating and destroying those dreams, it should pretty easily scale to her AP.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

"Considering How kasen can create her own senkai in the mountain"
Whoops, did not see that error.
Reworded:
"Considering how kasen created her own senkai within the mountain, it isn't unlikely for Kaguya to expand space to such a degree given lunarians are stated to be like hermits in regards to existence: "

ZUN	月の都も仙人の家も、ちょっと似ているわけです。月の都に居る人間たちは、人間というよりも仙人や天人ぽいですね。	That's because the Lunar Capital and the dwelling of a hermit are rather similar. The residents of the Lunar Capital are closer to hermits or celestials than humans.

 

[Malomtek]

I went back to UliL ps4 version to look at it again. I didn't see much of anything that wpuld imply a spatial/temporal loop. All it says is linking minuscule gaps in space-time. You could link something and not have it be looped. Contextually with her time manipulation there's nothing to suggest looping is a part of it her's either a time stop and just "speeding up" time. Not saying it's a feat (it's just space-time hax), but it doesn't seem like space-time looping nor did any characters suggest it.

While I otherwise wouldn't necessarily agree with it not being a loop, I do agree with the notion that "linking miniscule gaps in spacetime" is not a feat of power, but an ability of hax.

I'm pretty burnt out on VS stuff today so I'll just repost what Doge already said about Kaguya's corridor.

The loop could just be pretty big, but you know what? Fine.

"Considering how kasen created her own senkai within the mountain, it isn't unlikely for Kaguya to expand space to such a degree given lunarians are stated to be like hermits in regards to existence: "

ZUN	月の都も仙人の家も、ちょっと似ているわけです。月の都に居る人間たちは、人間というよりも仙人や天人ぽいですね。	That's because the Lunar Capital and the dwelling of a hermit are rather similar. The residents of the Lunar Capital are closer to hermits or celestials than humans.

Kasen creating a pocket space has no bearing on whether or not Kaguya can expand space "infinitely" or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[Shmooply]

Bump, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write explanations regarding what Promestein currently needs to evaluate here please?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We currently need Promestein to evaluate Doremy's dream creation and destruction feat, the math behind Kaguya's planck timing speed, the scaling for both of these, and the validity of Kaguya's infinite corridor as a space-time continuum. I am unsure what issues Promestein currently has with Doremy's dream feats, so I would appreciate it if we waited for her and addressed those issues as they come up rather than continue to debate.

The relevant discussions for Kaguya's speed calcs were provided by ShinyMagicalGirl here. The proposed speed upgrade would be to 61.8 decillion times FTL.

The discussion about the validity of Kaguya's corridor was already being discussed above so I don't think I need to recap too much, just that there's more evidence against the corridor just being a loop than there is for it.

Please let me know if there's anything missing.

 

[RethPo]

Looks like proms having trouble understanding the dream world fuckery you guys are talking about soooo. Could one of you summarise the arguments for doremy being low 2-C to 2-C and i guess characters scaling in simple terms. Would help loads.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/b0/Wth.png/revision/latest?cb=20211022192037

(Sry btw... image comes out small and horrid quality when i try to upload it here)

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I hope Prom sees the speed thing I posted, they still haven't commented on it yet and I really want to settle the speed stuff.

Anyways yeah what Mokou said, there's two ends for the Kaguya speed thing based on perception. Link here.

 

[RethPo]

I really dont think kaguyas "speed" feat is in any way quantifiable or clear beyond just being hax. Its definitely nowhere near enough evidence to upgrade her to decillions of times light and is at best supporting for maybe a femtosecond?

Its better to just focus on the doremy stuff tbh and decide what to do with the ap ratings for characters since kaguyas instant feat has already been rejected as 2-C which was why it was even brought up to begin with and is just barely even quantifiable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Image isn't working for me for some reason ¯\(ツ)/¯

As for the Dream World stuff, I will try to be brief. Do not attack me if I skip over certain arguments because we've been on this topic for like 3 god damn pages now. Also, please don't take this as an invitation to continue arguing about this, it's meant purely to condense the arguments made in favor of 2-C Doremy.

Doremy's ability to create and destroy dreams is what gets her to L2-C/2-C because dreams are equivalent to reality, which would include infinite realms such as Hell and Higan, as shown in the scans presented here. It has been argued that since we cannot say every dream is low 2-C, we cannot scale Doremy to it. However, as Mobi2 has posted here, Doremy's position as ruler of the Dream World gives her control over all dreams, including the ones that are low 2-C. The argument for 2-C Doremy comes from her being able to manipulate and utilize multiple 'dream souls' in combat, each one being equivalent to a single dream, as shown in Guardian_Doge's post here.

While you could argue that this is simply high 3-A, note that space and time are interconnected in Touhou, so creating infinite spatial extent would be equivalent to creating an infinite space-time continuum.

If I have missed anything significant, please feel free to correct me.

As for the scaling, that has yet to be agreed on. We can safely say that Hecatia, Sagume, Eirin, and other god tiers upscale. Based on a statement from ZUN, I believe we could also scale characters such as Suika and Yukari above Doremy. From there, each character has their own relevant scaling chains we could rely on. I do think it'd be best if we figured out what tier Doremy is first before scaling characters to her, however.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I really dont think kaguyas "speed" feat is in any way quantifiable or clear beyond just being hax. Its definitely nowhere near enough evidence to upgrade her to decillions of times light and is at best supporting for maybe a femtosecond?

Its better to just focus on the doremy stuff tbh and decide what to do with the ap ratings for characters since kaguyas instant feat has already been rejected as 2-C which was why it was even brought up to begin with and is just barely even quantifiable.

Kaguya's speed thing has already been accepted as a speed amp and is being scaled to baseline MFTL+ reactions; what remains to be done here is determining which end to use and who scales, if anyone at all.

Agree with focusing on Doremy for now though.

 

[RethPo]

Mhmmm. Doremy scaling to any dream (maybe not all at once or the whole dw) is legit.
The real hole i see though is this.

Doremy's ability to create and destroy dreams is what gets her to L2-C/2-C because dreams are equivalent to reality, which would include infinite realms such as Hell and Higan, as shown in the scans presented here.

Dreams being reality like in those scans just means that whenever you dream, the entire event is replicated into its own new space. Like that one dream i had about fighting a bunch of demons with rocket launchers alongside android 17, would literally be a reality now in touhou logic with the characters and all. It doesnt mean touhous entire cosmology automatically exists in the dream world as reality. If thats not an argument thats been made.

Although the dream world does have resemblance to its own real world counterparts like characters functioning the same as their normal selves.

 

[Antvasima]

We currently need Promestein to evaluate Doremy's dream creation and destruction feat, the math behind Kaguya's planck timing speed, the scaling for both of these, and the validity of Kaguya's infinite corridor as a space-time continuum. I am unsure what issues Promestein currently has with Doremy's dream feats, so I would appreciate it if we waited for her and addressed those issues as they come up rather than continue to debate.

The relevant discussions for Kaguya's speed calcs were provided by ShinyMagicalGirl here. The proposed speed upgrade would be to 61.8 decillion times FTL.

The discussion about the validity of Kaguya's corridor was already being discussed above so I don't think I need to recap too much, just that there's more evidence against the corridor just being a loop than there is for it.

Please let me know if there's anything missing.

Image isn't working for me for some reason ¯\(ツ)/¯

As for the Dream World stuff, I will try to be brief. Do not attack me if I skip over certain arguments because we've been on this topic for like 3 god damn pages now. Also, please don't take this as an invitation to continue arguing about this, it's meant purely to condense the arguments made in favor of 2-C Doremy.

Doremy's ability to create and destroy dreams is what gets her to L2-C/2-C because dreams are equivalent to reality, which would include infinite realms such as Hell and Higan, as shown in the scans presented here. It has been argued that since we cannot say every dream is low 2-C, we cannot scale Doremy to it. However, as Mobi2 has posted here, Doremy's position as ruler of the Dream World gives her control over all dreams, including the ones that are low 2-C. The argument for 2-C Doremy comes from her being able to manipulate and utilize multiple 'dream souls' in combat, each one being equivalent to a single dream, as shown in Guardian_Doge's post here.

While you could argue that this is simply high 3-A, note that space and time are interconnected in Touhou, so creating infinite spatial extent would be equivalent to creating an infinite space-time continuum.

If I have missed anything significant, please feel free to correct me.

As for the scaling, that has yet to be agreed on. We can safely say that Hecatia, Sagume, Eirin, and other god tiers upscale. Based on a statement from ZUN, I believe we could also scale characters such as Suika and Yukari above Doremy. From there, each character has their own relevant scaling chains we could rely on. I do think it'd be best if we figured out what tier Doremy is first before scaling characters to her, however.

@Promestein

We would greatly appreciate your help with evaluating this.

 

[Promestein]

We currently need Promestein to evaluate Doremy's dream creation and destruction feat, the math behind Kaguya's planck timing speed, the scaling for both of these, and the validity of Kaguya's infinite corridor as a space-time continuum. I am unsure what issues Promestein currently has with Doremy's dream feats, so I would appreciate it if we waited for her and addressed those issues as they come up rather than continue to debate.

The relevant discussions for Kaguya's speed calcs were provided by ShinyMagicalGirl here. The proposed speed upgrade would be to 61.8 decillion times FTL.

The discussion about the validity of Kaguya's corridor was already being discussed above so I don't think I need to recap too much, just that there's more evidence against the corridor just being a loop than there is for it.

Please let me know if there's anything missing.

1. I don't have much of an opinion on Doremy's feats, I don't think, but isn't there a statement of her not being SUPER strong or whatever? Wouldn't it scale to a lot of people?
2. That's not math there?
3. I still don't think it's a space-time continuum, Kaguya can loop part of the corridor without looping the surrounding world, leading to things like it going up in space, it's just repeating prior segments as nececssary.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1. It'd scale to everyone who was already at universal when revisions began. Maybe not directly, but I can come up with some more detailed scaling chains later if needed.
2. I thought one of the posts linked provided a calc for planck reactions, but it turns out the post in question was assuming 1 meter was being moved in that time, so the math would need to be redone so there's no calc stacking. Nothing fancy, just compare planck time to baseline MFTL+ reactions.
3. Fair, I guess. Even if the construction itself isn't a feat, wouldn't Miko absorbing it still be H3-A/L2-C? It doesn't seem like it 'loops' in the same way the outer edges of Gensokyo do.

 

[RethPo]

1. Honestly i find a statement calling the abilities of a reality warper who uses universe sized realms to attack people as "mediocre" to be a bit off... especially when shes pretty much got the most impressive feats the verse has to offer. Im pretty sure a character like that having the best feats would be an outlier if it werent so consistent.

3. I mean... unless you argue for mikos ability to be hax as well. Looking at the context it infinitely links tiny gaps in space time to create it. It was done with a hermit ability that absorbs space (really not sure why itd scale to physicals). And she does it explicitely by absorbing space (which would make it high 3-A only). Doesnt she just need to absorb the gaps or space thats being infinitely linked to make the whole thing collapse? And its treat more as just an ability than anything that scales to physical stats...

By the way... if 4-A, possibly 3-B is on the table, what are actually the feats for 3-B? Is it just doremy scaling? Because there does still need to be direct examples of her creating specific realities. Unless theres a reason to believe she can recreate any otherworld including ones infinite or multi galactic in size otherwise it would be hasty generalisation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1. As I've said before, any tier we put Touhou at could be seen as inconsistent because we just don't have that many feats to work with now, and most are at different tiers. And like you pointed out, this is something she does pretty consistently.

3. She is only absorbing space, but its possibly low 2-C because we have ZUN's statement that you cannot affect space without affecting time. So absorbing infinite space could be absorbing an infinite space-time continuum. This is something I was planning on saving for a CRT after UES revisions were finished, but Touhou almost definitely has a UES that could be used to scale abilities like this to physicals. Like I said, I'd prefer to wait until the wiki finishes writing the proposed UES guidelines before posting about it, unless its absolutely necessary.

3-B is from Tenshi shaking Heaven and possibly being able to destroy all of it, and we see multiple galaxies in the background of Heaven in the fight against her in AoCF. As for Doremy, we've already agreed on her scaling to any one dream, so it seems wrong to assume that not a single dream in all of existence contains an infinite Otherworld. If one does exist, well, we've already agreed Doremy could create/destroy/control it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Promestein.

 

[RethPo]

1. Well. I do think itd act more as a possibly (doremy level) rating for the characters if doremy is kept as high outerversal+

2. B4 i say anything... Wats UES?

3. Shaking even the observable universe would only be multi solar system level and we dont know the timeframe or method tenshi would have to destroying the heavens.
For the record, since doremy can basically replecate the strongest characters including ones shes weaker than. She shouldnt really scale to anything she creates outside of the actual size of the realms she uses in attacks and eats. Her creation clearly doesnt scale to her own power (this is partly why ive always seen creation feats as unreliable but lets not go there)

Well we know for a fact that avici is infinite for its intented purpose, and likely current makai, and the heavens has a realm which is minimum 3-B in size. But avicis the only otherworld besides maybe infinite corridors we have to go on.

If doremys scaling here is entirely based on "this otherworld could exist in the dream world and shed automatically scale"... Then thats more of a likely far higher rating than anything else.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

What do we do about the "Infinite Senkai" stuff, then? Y'all throwing them to trash or smth?

Haven't read the 9 pages of derailing thread, so apologies if that was discussed.

 

[RethPo]

What do we do about the "Infinite Senkai" stuff, then? Y'all throwing them to trash or smth?

Discussed. Senkai can just be "expanded infinitely into any nook and cranny". Just means it can be altered or expanded as much as you want. Not that it is infinite or expands that much on its own

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1. High Outerversal+ Doremy? Damn, we didn't even start work on the tier 1 Dream World revision yet!

2. Universal Energy System. So stuff like the force. IIRC it's a major part of scaling creation feats (and stuff like Miko's feat) to physicals.

3. Creation feats do scale to power if you have a UES to back it up, which Touhou does thanks to the Mental Layer. Doremy's scaling to dream selves isn't being used I don't think, we're scaling her solely based on canonical statements of power. So Hecatia upscales, Sagume and other high ranking Lunarians upscale, Yukari upscales, I could go on.

Hell and Higan are confirmed to be infinite, you could make arguments for the Netherworld and Heaven being infinite, and there's Kaguya's corridor thing, so there are 5 possible 'infinite' locations that could be used here, assuming I'm not forgetting any. I still think this is just as, if not more consistent than the other feats we currently have on the table, and a few clear scaling chains we could use. 4-A/3-B also only has a single feat going for it, except it only happens once and isn't a core part of a character's entire identity/fighting style, so it's far less consistent than L2-C/2-C.

 

[Mobi2]

1. Well. I do think itd act more as a possibly (doremy level) rating for the characters if doremy is kept as high outerversal+

2. B4 i say anything... Wats UES?

3. Shaking even the observable universe would only be multi solar system level and we dont know the timeframe or method tenshi would have to destroying the heavens.
For the record, since doremy can basically replecate the strongest characters including ones shes weaker than. She shouldnt really scale to anything she creates outside of the actual size of the realms she uses in attacks and eats. Her creation clearly doesnt scale to her own power (this is partly why ive always seen creation feats as unreliable but lets not go there)

Well we know for a fact that avici is infinite for its intented purpose, and likely current makai, and the heavens has a realm which is minimum 3-B in size. But avicis the only otherworld besides maybe infinite corridors we have to go on.

If doremys scaling here is entirely based on "this otherworld could exist in the dream world and shed automatically scale"... Then thats more of a likely far higher rating than anything else.

Also she said she was going to recreate the world after destroying heaven I'll grab the text in a little bit (not on my computer rn)

 

[Mobi2]

Tenshi	天空に住む天人の戦い方を 見せてやろう！ お前達を倒したら 天界を滅ぼし 地上を滅ぼし 人類を滅ぼし 地をならし 美しい四季を作り 新しい生命を造り 悲しむ事のない心を創り 貧する事のない社会を作り この世界全てを 創り直してやろう！ 死に腐れ！　外道の神々よ！	Witness the fighting style of someone who lives in the sky! A celestial! Once I beat you two, I'll destroy Heaven, destroy the Earth, destroy humanity, tame the land, make four beautiful seasons, create new life, give them hearts that never feel sad, build a society where no one's poor... I'll remake this entire world! Rot in death! You heretic gods!

Huh it works on mobile interesting.

 

[RethPo]

Universal Energy System. So stuff like the force. IIRC it's a major part of scaling creation feats (and stuff like Miko's feat) to physicals. Creation feats do scale to power if you have a UES to back it up, which Touhou does thanks to the Mental Layer.

Okayyyyy i looked at the thread... I guess its applicable. If its not deemable as an outlier. Especially given how many anti feats characters that level actually have as well (marisa being threatened by a cliff fall, animals, unable to cut certain youkai tree roots iirc, her and reimu being threatened by a house engulfing fireball, reimu hurting her foot kicking a spaceship, all ones off the top of my head)

Doremy's scaling to dream selves isn't being used I don't think, we're scaling her solely based on canonical statements of power. So Hecatia upscales, Sagume and other high ranking Lunarians upscale, Yukari upscales, I could go on.

Hell and Higan are confirmed to be infinite, you could make arguments for the Netherworld and Heaven being infinite, and there's Kaguya's corridor thing, so there are 5 possible 'infinite' locations that could be used here, assuming I'm not forgetting any. I still think this is just as, if not more consistent than the other feats we currently have on the table, and a few clear scaling chains we could use. 4-A/3-B also only has a single feat going for it, except it only happens once and isn't a core part of a character's entire identity/fighting style, so it's far less consistent than L2-C/2-C.

That "netherworld is bigger than hell today" statement is still being brought up?
It doesnt matter if theres five possible locations. We literally dont know whether these dreams exist in the dream world or not or if theyve been fully replicated.

For the space = time thing... space and time are intertwined even irl, just not the same thing. Even black holes affecting time but not having any kind of 4D power, its just a result of the space bending. Time sometimes just gets altered as a result of it. Hermits are still clearly focused on changing and the corridor doesnt even have its space time separated.
It doesnt mean were suddenly just give every high 3-A feat low 2-C.

For consistency, we have 1 feat of absorbing the corridor (which is mostly dealing with space and is debateably low 2-C at best) and 1 shaky high 3-A feat from eirin (which only scales to top tier lunarians)
2-C... doesnt even have anything at this point.
4-A has tenshi, doremy creating a clearly 4-A dream, feats performed by dragons of becoming consolations (scales to mostly top lunarians though)
Then you have star level yatagarasu and suika black holes, some tier 5 senkai creation. Quite a few tier 6 and 7 feats, and then anti feats.

So thats 1 or two high 3-A and 2 or 3 4-A

@Mobi2 Doesnt even creation depend on timeframes and what shes actually creating to replace it?

 

[Mobi2]

Okayyyyy i looked at the thread... I guess its applicable. If its not deemable as an outlier. Especially given how many anti feats characters that level actually have as well (marisa being threatened by a cliff fall, animals, unable to cut certain youkai tree roots iirc, her and reimu being threatened by a house engulfing fireball, reimu hurting her foot kicking a spaceship, all ones off the top of my head)

That "netherworld is bigger than hell today" statement is still being brought up?
It doesnt matter if theres five possible locations. We literally dont know whether these dreams exist in the dream world or not or if theyve been fully replicated.

For the space = time thing... space and time are intertwined even irl, just not the same thing. Even black holes affecting time but not having any kind of 4D power, its just a result of the space bending. Time sometimes just gets altered as a result of it. Hermits are still clearly focused on changing and the corridor doesnt even have its space time separated.
It doesnt mean were suddenly just give every high 3-A feat low 2-C.

For consistency, we have 1 feat of absorbing the corridor (which is mostly dealing with space and is debateably low 2-C at best) and 1 shaky high 3-A feat from eirin (which only scales to top tier lunarians)
2-C... doesnt even have anything at this point.
4-A has tenshi, doremy creating a clearly 4-A dream, feats performed by dragons of becoming consolations (scales to mostly top lunarians though)
Then you have star level yatagarasu and suika black holes, some tier 5 senkai creation. Quite a few tier 6 and 7 feats, and then anti feats.

So thats 1 or two high 3-A and 2 or 3 4-A

@Mobi2 Doesnt even creation depend on timeframes and what shes actually creating to replace it?

There was a comment on Shion's end saying that she'd didn't have much time to use its power since it's wilding out, though that Tenshi clone implies that she was wrong for saying that. Even though Shion might be wrong about her not keeping up that level of power for it implies that Shion thinks she's able to do all of this quickly. Well that's what I interpret from it at least.

Shion	落ち着いて女苑 抑圧された夢のパワーが 暴走しているだけよ 長くは持たない筈よ	Calm down, Joon. It's just the suppressed dream power running wild. She shouldn't be able to keep it up for long.
Tenshi	ふっ馬鹿め 私は全人類の気質を利用できる そのパワーは無尽蔵だ！	Hmph! Fools! I use the temperament of all mankind! This power is inexhaustible!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Those anti-feats are so ridiculously low that they're very obviously outliers, even if we downplayed the verse all the way to building level. Unless we suddenly wanna start arguing 10-C Touhou.

I'm not sure what the wiki standards regarding space-time manip are so I can't speak too much on this topic, but we do have word of god that manipulation of one grants you manipulation of the other, and this also seems like a verse-specific thing. Also H3-A is just infinite energy on a 3D scale, it doesn't inherently have anything to do with space, hence why Sagume's occult ball feat could qualify. No spatial manipulation there, just a fuckton of energy.

We also have Sagume's feat, don't forget. Also, are we just forgetting Doremy's dream creation/destruction? I'm pretty sure you already agreed that Doremy can control any dream, which would include the L2-C ones. 2-C comes from her ability to manipulate and utilize multiple dreams in combat. So we have H3-A from Sagume's occult balls and Miko's corridor absorption, L2-C from Miko (again) and Doremy's dream creation, and possibly 2-C from Doremy controlling multiple dreams at once (impossible to know for certain if multiple of them are L2-C, hence why its a 'possibly'). Seems like there are just as many feats to support universal+ Touhou as there are for multi-solar system Touhou. I will retract my previous statement about lower tiers being just as inconsistent, though.

What are the tier 6 and 7 feats by the way? Genuinely curious because I'm looking into feats some of the low tiers could scale to so they can get out of wall level hell.

On another note, if Promestein is neutral regarding Doremy's dream feats, where exactly do we go from here? We had Saikou say no before just disappearing, and Jasonsith seemed to agree with the upgrades, so as far as staff member input goes, 1 disagrees with 2-C, 1 agrees, 1 is neutral. Do we just tally up everyone who agrees and disagrees?

 

[RethPo]

Those anti-feats are so ridiculously low that they're very obviously outliers, even if we downplayed the verse all the way to building level. Unless we suddenly wanna start arguing 10-C Touhou.

Actually im arguing for 9-C touhou The point isnt that they are that level. The point is that literally nobody in touhou is portrayed or treat as a cosmic skyfather with infinite power who could destroy the universe and crush time itself. Any fan outside this wiki or scaling would call you crazy if you told them that. Its the same issue people have with the likes of mario. Trying to get them to high 3-A from a single absorption feat and some ambiguous statements is ridiculous.

I'm not sure what the wiki standards regarding space-time manip are so I can't speak too much on this topic, but we do have word of god that manipulation of one grants you manipulation of the other, and this also seems like a verse-specific thing. Also H3-A is just infinite energy on a 3D scale, it doesn't inherently have anything to do with space, hence why Sagume's occult ball feat could qualify. No spatial manipulation there, just a fuckton of energy.

Were bringing sagumes occult ball again? Seriously? It is just an object that releases energy endlessly she created with her power. We have no reference as to how it produces said energy, whether its just recreating it, doing it through other magical means or what. Theres no reason to believe it stores infinite energy inside it and lets it out especially when its being compared to a white hole.

We also have Sagume's feat, don't forget. Also, are we just forgetting Doremy's dream creation/destruction? I'm pretty sure you already agreed that Doremy can control any dream, which would include the L2-C ones. 2-C comes from her ability to manipulate and utilize multiple dreams in combat. So we have H3-A from Sagume's occult balls and Miko's corridor absorption, L2-C from Miko (again) and Doremy's dream creation, and possibly 2-C from Doremy controlling multiple dreams at once (impossible to know for certain if multiple of them are L2-C, hence why its a 'possibly'). Seems like there are just as many feats to support universal+ Touhou as there are for multi-solar system Touhou. I will retract my previous statement about lower tiers being just as inconsistent, though.

Youre literally just repeating the same things here over and over again, even in the same paragraph to make it look like theres more...

Again, there is no proof of any of otherworlds existing in the dream world that are infinite in size. Even a possible rating has to have some sustanance to it beyond just "this realm could theoretically exist and be manipulated by doremy". Its straight up hasty generalisation (or no limits fallacy if thats what youre more familliar with).

Even mikos feat, its just infinite links repeating the same parts of a hallway. Absorbing space from that is just absorbing a looped thing and not consuming an actual infinite amount of space. But giving it the benefit of the doubt, theres 1 high 3-A (possibly low 2-C?) from miko, one possible feat from eirin, and there would be either a high 3-A to 2-C of doremy manipulating and using dreams in her attacks. All three are at best extremely sketchy.

Also the dreams doremy uses are used in small bullets at that point. You cant really get 2-C from that i dont think.

What are the tier 6 and 7 feats by the way? Genuinely curious because I'm looking into feats some of the low tiers could scale to so they can get out of wall level hell.

Well theres a tier 8 from yukaris train im gonna do a thread on but that doesnt matter rn. Tier 6 and 7 includes marisas mini hakkero being able to turn a mountain to ash, kasens been able to create storms as well as hatching dragons doing that, suika saying she could tear down a mountain, destroying the heavens canopy (it covers the sky soooo), giant catfish multi continental statement and feat in a dream, Yuugiis power being able to burn two villagas in an instant. I could go on. Found a lot here too.

On another note, if Promestein is neutral regarding Doremy's dream feats, where exactly do we go from here? We had Saikou say no before just disappearing, and Jasonsith seemed to agree with the upgrades, so as far as staff member input goes, 1 disagrees with 2-C, 1 agrees, 1 is neutral. Do we just tally up everyone who agrees and disagrees?

We talking staff here? Well saikou and jason hasnt been here .
Best options i see is either going back to high 3-A possibly low 2-C and removing feats that have been fully rejected like suikas, or going to 4-A possibly 3-B.

 

[Malomtek]

So I was enjoying life for a while ("vs debate burn-out" and all), then I remembered this thread was still going, so I got back into the ring because this discussion seems to be winding down and I wanted to get a few "INB4 locks" in. Hope everyone didn't miss me, and I think I've mostly done my job here anyway, so I'm really just waiting for @Promestein to make her final decisions.

We also have Sagume's feat, don't forget.

No, "we" don't. I (and @RethPo) already refuted Sagume's feat.

I'm pretty sure you already agreed that Doremy can control any dream, which would include the L2-C ones.

Who says that Doremy can create/control/destroy "any" dream, including some hypothetical "Low 2-C" dream? Again, I already refuted this. Doremy is simply a random baku, not the Goddess of Dreams. Dreams can arise and exist completely independently of Doremy, and there are no confirmed "Low 2-C" dreams.

Miko's corridor absorption

The corridor isn't infinite, like I (and Prom and RethPo) already explained in depth.

On another note, if Promestein is neutral regarding Doremy's dream feats, where exactly do we go from here? We had Saikou say no before just disappearing, and Jasonsith seemed to agree with the upgrades, so as far as staff member input goes, 1 disagrees with 2-C, 1 agrees, 1 is neutral. Do we just tally up everyone who agrees and disagrees?

Not really. I believe we should ping @Saikou_The_Lewd_King and @Jasonsith again to see what their stances are now after reading at least this page of the thread. Saikou might not respond in any "reasonable" timeframe, but I'm sure Jasonsith can give his own answers.

 

[RethPo]

Not really. I believe we should ping @Saikou_The_Lewd_King and @Jasonsith again to see what their stances are now after reading at least this page of the thread. Saikou might not respond in any "reasonable" timeframe, but I'm sure Jasonsith can give his own answers.

Think ive told you before but you prolly missed. Users cant tag staff from what i know. It just wont notify them. Probably because itd annoy them...

Who says that Doremy can create/control/destroy "any" dream, including some hypothetical "Low 2-C" dream? Again, I already refuted this. Doremy is simply a random baku, not the Goddess of Dreams. Dreams can arise and exist completely independently of Doremy, and there are no confirmed "Low 2-C" dreams.

She... literally is the ruler of the dream world though. If anything her doing all those things with dreams (she uses them in attacks so yes she scales. At least to the size of individual dreams, and also devours them) arguably contradicts her being "weak".

Anyway ill get going for today. (Please for the love of god try reach some kind of conclusion here guys!)

 

[Malomtek]

Think ive told you before but you prolly missed. Users cant tag staff from what i know. It just wont notify them. Probably because itd annoy them...

I'm pretty sure staff can be tagged, but I'll otherwise PM them to make sure they see this.

 

[Malomtek]

She... literally is the ruler of the dream world though. If anything her doing all those things with dreams (she uses them in attacks so yes she scales. At least to the size of individual dreams, and also devours them) arguably contradicts her being "weak".

I refer back to my "Emperor of the Galaxy" example of a person being titled as someone "in control" of something without literally being able to control every last particle of said "something".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually im arguing for 9-C touhou The point isnt that they are that level. The point is that literally nobody in touhou is portrayed or treat as a cosmic skyfather with infinite power who could destroy the universe and crush time itself. Any fan outside this wiki or scaling would call you crazy if you told them that. Its the same issue people have with the likes of mario. Trying to get them to high 3-A from a single absorption feat and some ambiguous statements is ridiculous.

Actually Touhou is tier 11 because every character is fictional in-universe This wiki doesn't solely measure what threat level a character is considered to be in-universe, because very rarely do writers actually intend to give their characters a certain level of power. Nobody at SEGA is writing Sonic with the intent to make him a universe buster, Miyamoto isn't pulling all-nighters trying to calc how fast or strong Mario is, and ZUN certainly isn't giving us direct statements about power levels because there's more to a series than VS debating. Yes, this can lead to inconsistencies, but we need to give actual feats precedent over what is intended by the creator, otherwise this hobby would be 99% bothering writers over what power levels they see their characters having.

Were bringing sagumes occult ball again? Seriously? It is just an object that releases energy endlessly she created with her power. We have no reference as to how it produces said energy, whether its just recreating it, doing it through other magical means or what. Theres no reason to believe it stores infinite energy inside it and lets it out especially when its being compared to a white hole.

Youre literally just repeating the same things here over and over again, even in the same paragraph to make it look like theres more...

Bringing up Sagume again was probably a mistake especially since Prom has stated she's not weighing in on it, so lets maybe not revive this debate. You know my stance on it, I know your stance on it, neither one is changing.

You do have a fair point about me being repetitive though. Not intentional, I just talk like that unfortunately.

Again, there is no proof of any of otherworlds existing in the dream world that are infinite in size. Even a possible rating has to have some sustanance to it beyond just "this realm could theoretically exist and be manipulated by doremy". Its straight up hasty generalisation (or no limits fallacy if thats what youre more familliar with).

Even mikos feat, its just infinite links repeating the same parts of a hallway. Absorbing space from that is just absorbing a looped thing and not consuming an actual infinite amount of space. But giving it the benefit of the doubt, theres 1 high 3-A (possibly low 2-C?) from miko, one possible feat from eirin, and there would be either a high 3-A to 2-C of doremy manipulating and using dreams in her attacks. All three are at best extremely sketchy.

It's not a no limits fallacy; we know there are dream versions of these realms (via various scans stating that dreams equal reality), and we know Doremy can control all dreams (via her position as Ruler of the Dream World). It's an extremely simple line of logic to follow. Character can create/destroy/control vague thing --> vague thing is low 2-C --> character is low 2-C.

Just because a structure was created via a loop doesn't mean the structure by itself is a loop. Kaguya's corridor by itself clearly isn't a non-euclidean loop like the outer edges of Gensokyo are as the air around the characters was clearly changing as they moved, showing that they were going higher into the air, which wouldn't be possible if they were flying through an endless loop. Also, if you want to claim the corridor itself loops a la Gensokyo, you need proof, sorry to say.

Also the dreams doremy uses are used in small bullets at that point. You cant really get 2-C from that i dont think.

What does this prove, exactly? If I throw a universe at you, it doesn't matter if it's actually universe sized or condensed into a tiny ball, you're still getting hit with a ******* universe.

Well theres a tier 8 from yukaris train im gonna do a thread on but that doesnt matter rn. Tier 6 and 7 includes marisas mini hakkero being able to turn a mountain to ash, kasens been able to create storms as well as hatching dragons doing that, suika saying she could tear down a mountain, destroying the heavens canopy (it covers the sky soooo), giant catfish multi continental statement and feat in a dream, Yuugiis power being able to burn two villagas in an instant. I could go on. Found a lot here too.

Damn, nothing to scale the low tiers to I guess. This is all interesting stuff though, thanks for going out of your way to find it. If you use any of this in a downgrade thread I reserve the right to undo my 'thanks'.

We talking staff here? Well saikou and jason hasnt been here .
Best options i see is either going back to high 3-A possibly low 2-C and removing feats that have been fully rejected like suikas, or going to 4-A possibly 3-B.

I could accept reverting back to universal, though I would also really like to resolve the dream stuff here. Obviously gonna remove the invalid feats once we reach a conclusion.

Saikou and Jason gave their opinions very early on in the thread, no idea if they still think the same. Good ******* luck getting a hold of Saikou though.

So I was enjoying life for a while ("vs debate burn-out" and all), then I remembered this thread was still going, so I got back into the ring because this discussion seems to be winding down and I wanted to get a few "INB4 locks" in. Hope everyone didn't miss me, and I think I've mostly done my job here anyway, so I'm really just waiting for @Promestein to make her final decisions.

Prom isn't making any final decisions regarding the tier I don't think. Hope you enjoyed your short break though.

No, "we" don't. I (and @RethPo) already refuted Sagume's feat.

Not really. All you did was repeatedly claim she either A. Made the ball using Causality Manip (how the **** does that work?) B. The ball is either a perpetual motion machine or is drawing its energy from an outside source, neither of which you have provided scans in support of.

Who says that Doremy can create/control/destroy "any" dream, including some hypothetical "Low 2-C" dream? Again, I already refuted this. Doremy is simply a random baku, not the Goddess of Dreams. Dreams can arise and exist completely independently of Doremy, and there are no confirmed "Low 2-C" dreams.

"a random baku, not the Goddess of Dreams" B R U H

I can't imagine ignoring canon this ******* hard. It'd be kind of impressive if it wasn't so sad.
Oh right, authority =/= AP. Here's the statement from her LoLK profile proving she can manipulate ALL dreams.

Also, 'the dreams of all living creatures are, in fact, connected at the deepest levels' proves that if she affects one subsection of a dream realm (lets say Hell), she is affecting all of it.

The corridor isn't infinite, like I (and Prom and RethPo) already explained in depth.

Did you actually provide evidence for your claims or did you just repeatedly state "its a loop" with exactly zero scans to back up your point? Because I seem to be remembering the latter.

Not really. I believe we should ping @Saikou_The_Lewd_King and @Jasonsith again to see what their stances are now after reading at least this page of the thread. Saikou might not respond in any "reasonable" timeframe, but I'm sure Jasonsith can give his own answers.

Agreed. Would still prefer we got the opinions of all participants in this thread rather than just staff.

I refer back to my "Emperor of the Galaxy" example of a person being titled as someone "in control" of something without literally being able to control every last particle of said "something".

From her LoLK profile: "She can erase, create and switch out those very dreams." The extent of her control should very clearly scale to her AP as it includes creation and destruction.

I might try to work on a post attempting to recap the various points made in support of low 2-C/2-C Doremy for convenience's sake, though it'd probably take all night (of course this thread revives right as I start work on another verse).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right, on the topic of "cosmic level characters getting ****** over by incredibly weak shit"

 

[Malomtek]

Not really. All you did was repeatedly claim she either A. Made the ball using Causality Manip (how the **** does that work?) B. The ball is either a perpetual motion machine or is drawing its energy from an outside source, neither of which you have provided scans in support of.

A. It works if she used the causality manipulation to essentially will the ball into being.
B. I analyzed the kanji and brought out an entirely alternative translation that is just as valid as the one.

"a random baku, not the Goddess of Dreams" B R U H

I can't imagine ignoring canon this ******* hard. It'd be kind of impressive if it wasn't so sad.
Oh right, authority =/= AP. Here's the statement from her LoLK profile proving she can manipulate ALL dreams.

Also, 'the dreams of all living creatures are, in fact, connected at the deepest levels' proves that if she affects one subsection of a dream realm (lets say Hell), she is affecting all of it.

A statement about the "deeper" nature of dreams being "connected" has zero relation on how many dreams Doremy Sweet's can control at once, or even if she can control a hypothetical "infinite" sized dream as a whole unit. That's just a non-sequitur.

Again, random baku, not Goddess of Dreams.

Did you actually provide evidence for your claims or did you just repeatedly state "its a loop" with exactly zero scans to back up your point? Because I seem to be remembering the latter.

Prom backed me up here, so it's not just me.

From her LoLK profile: "She can erase, create and switch out those very dreams." The extent of her control should very clearly scale to her AP as it includes creation and destruction.

I might try to work on a post attempting to recap the various points made in support of low 2-C/2-C Doremy for convenience's sake, though it'd probably take all night (of course this thread revives right as I start work on another verse).

Doremy Sweet being able to manipulate individual dreams doesn't mean she can manipulate all dreams at once, or any dreams of any size, even "infinite" ones. I think I've said this at least a dozen times already.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

A. It works if she used the causality manipulation to essentially will the ball into being.
B. I analyzed the kanji and brought out an entirely alternative translation that is just as valid as the one.

1. That's a very specific use of Causality Manip that we've never seen Sagume use before; we would need evidence that this was the method used before debunking the feat entirely.
2. I'm not arguing against the alternative translation; it doesn't matter if its pouring out energy infinitely or endlessly, since somewhere infinite energy has to be involved, otherwise it'd just run out. Could be from Sagume or some other unknown source, but regardless of which interpretation you use, infinite energy needs to be a part of the equation.

A statement about the "deeper" nature of dreams being "connected" has zero relation on how many dreams Doremy Sweet's can control at once, or even if she can control a hypothetical "infinite" sized dream as a whole unit. That's just a non-sequitur.

Again, random baku, not Goddess of Dreams.

You're technically right, but if all dreams are connected on a fundamental level, then changing the fundamental nature of one would logically extend to all of them due to their inherent connection. So she's still technically 'controlling' a single dream, but that level of control extends to every other dream out there at the same time. Also, weren't you the one who argued that dreams as a collective are equal to reality? If that's the case, then controlling all of them could certainly get up to 2-C, which Doremy could likely do due to the whole "connected at the deepest levels" thing.

And please tell me where you're getting 'random baku' from when she's literally the ruler of the Dream World. Are all baku rulers of the Dream World now? Can't imagine what kind of ****** up political system they have if that's the case.

Prom backed me up here, so it's not just me.

Gonna need evidence beyond "a staff member agreed with me".

Doremy Sweet being able to manipulate individual dreams doesn't mean she can manipulate all dreams at once, or any dreams of any size, even "infinite" ones. I think I've said this at least a dozen times already.

I don't know how to continue to argue this point when Doremy's profile makes it very clear she can manipulate all dreams. Maybe not all at once, depending on how you interpret the statement about dreams being connected, but assuming there are some dreams she can't control is something you would really need proof to back up.

Few other points to note. If all dreams are just collectively equivalent to reality, as you've claimed in the past, then a single dream would still be infinite. Reality as a whole is infinite (thanks to Hell and Higan), there are a finite number of dreams due to there being a finite number of people in the world, and an infinite number divided by a finite number is, well, infinite. A smaller degree of infinity, sure, but still infinite.

Also, it's literally Doremy's job to manage dreams. Why would she be unable to manipulate some dreams when that's the entire point of her role as ruler of the Dream World? You would need some very convincing evidence since we're not gonna just assume Doremy ******* sucks at her job for no reason.