Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Urshani]

This is literally just the DB Heroes speed nonsense all over again.

Are you going to change the speed standards yet again? Or do you want to keep being salty?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Btw have people also discussed the String Theory 11D things for Touhou? I know 2-C is a thing now but how about High 1-C?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Context is important. Things like Suika's feat are cases where a character is just reporting what they are seeing, while Toyohime's statements should be more reliant on context from other sources, like Dr. Latency's Freak Report and Akyuu's statements regarding Kaguya's ability. I would not be relying on Toyohime's statements if they were not backed up by other sources, and her statement regarding femtoseconds, unlike everything else she says in that scan, is not backed up by anything else.

I'm not gonna bother with the Reisen thing, since if you genuinely believe she used some kind of magic ability to make all the doors close instantly that she's never showcased before and has never been mentioned anywhere else, then I don't think anything I say will convince you. Though its worth noting she missed one, so it seems like something she would've physically done herself rather than just "its magic"

 

[Malomtek]

So 'single moments of time' (in other words, an instant), can in fact be separated from space.

It seems that given the wider context of "manipulating time is manipulating space, and vice versa", it would be too hasty to assert that "single moments of time" can be separated from space either.

These "instants" are presumably analogous to infinitesimal units of space.

Those are some incredible specific circumstances that you have absolutely 0 evidence for. Burden of proof is on you here.

Reisen has psychic powers and can create forcefields out of waves (including brainwaves), so it's not nearly as "specific" as you're trying to make it out to be.

There's also the sticking fact that no one and nothing explained how exactly Reisen "sealed" all those doors to begin with.

That's a single example. Any character with infinite/immeasurable speed can be 'debunked' according to your logic, because these characters aren't always moving at top speed. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Nobody needs to be moving at their peak 100% of the time to 'prove' infinite or immeasurable speed.

I would also appreciate it if you elaborated on how it's bullshit rather than just insist it is with nothing to back it up.

Because it's true logic. If a character can supposedly move at infinite/immeasurable speeds, yet he constantly requires relatively prolonged periods of time to get to certain locations, or any distances beyond like a kilometer, then he isn't actually infinite or immeasurable in speeds. This is true for Touhou characters, funnily enough, and your dumb stonewalling won't make it otherwise.

Yes, because this is clearly an anti-feat rather than a case of game mechanics. Guilty Gear has immeasurable speed, but that speed isn't reflected in gameplay because if it was, the game would be literally unplayable and nobody would enjoy it. No character in any game you play will actually be moving at the speeds they should be moving at based on feats and lore, because if they were, nobody would ever play a single video game ever again. Please refrain from bringing up game mechanics/PIS in your arguments again, I'm getting tired of arguing against it.

I'm pretty sure you can reasonably represent the background rapidly shifting and distorting to represent characters in a bullet hell shoot-'em-up moving at infinite/immeasurable speeds without having the game become literally unplayable as a result.

After all, background image movements are pretty much the reason that PC-98 2hus are rated as "possibly Massively FTL+" here.

These bullshit excuses are becoming increasingly lame and tiresome.

In that case, guess we better throw every single universal feat, FTL feat, all the notable hax, and minor characters out the window because they aren't represented in gameplay!

But seriously, characters are regularly depicted as faster or stronger in lore or statements in most verses, not just Touhou. This is basically standard practice for the wiki. 90% of what is present on the Touhou pages right now is reliant on lore statements such as Reisen's door feat or Kaguya's instant movement. To throw these out on the basis of "they're not reflected in gameplay" is, pardon my french, ******* idiotic.

I refer to the above statement, with the addition that there are some low showings that cannot just be handwaved away as "game mechanics". Kaguya's seeming inability to use her "instant movement" when you actually fight her in the story is one of them. Maybe that's just a plot contrivance. Who knows? I'm still sticking with the facts here.

It just further confirms what was already being discussed here. Nothing about it being a song title would make it wrong to use, unless it is somehow contradictory to something we already know for a fact, which it isn't.

Song titles, being "poetry" more than anything that has to do with the plot or characters or feats or anything about the story, aren't meaningful "evidence" in any way, shape, or form.

Maybe @Saikou_The_Lewd_King has an explanation for why Touhou is the incredibly rare exception here, but until he does, I'm sticking to the side of facts and reality, and not delusion and untruth.

You need to cut the attitude, we never once attacked you nor have we done something that should affect your mental/emotional health. We're revising an outdated verse, with open minded interpretations, in which we still discuss our opinions thoroughly both here and the private discord to make sure we come to a viable consensus, this should not hurt you enough to where you have to spew words like "bullshit". (fujiwara you should also avoid things like "*******".)

PM me this Discord server. I have quite a few things to say there.

As for the rest, me saying "bullshit" is my legitimate opinion, not me being "hurt" or something. I don't particularly care if FYM says the word "*******" either, as that would just be pointless tone policing.

 

[Malomtek]

Are you going to change the speed standards yet again? Or do you want to keep being salty?

I wish I could unilaterally change this forum's speed standards, just to see you whine like the incontinent little boy you are when I downgrade all your favorite verses to shit.

 

[Urshani]

I wish I could unilaterally change this forum's speed standards, just to see you whine like the incontinent little boy you are when I downgrade all your favorite verses to shit.

Keep on shouting! You'll only get banned. And then NOBODY will care about your opinion.

Go on, curse again! I'll report all your toxic comments in this thread, and then poof! No more Malomtek! If you don't want that, I highly suggest you act civil.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

While I dont agree with badmouthing, I have to agree on the Reisen point made by Malom sadly. We dont know how the feat even works. The image Fujiwara showed is just kinda of vague and doesn’t hint anything. The fact that she said “seal” and not “close” also points to magic as well.

And as for the Femto thing, honestly its the only context we have here so these instances must be a Femtosecond. Besides, an instance of time so short that normal beings cannot perceive can be anything really. Normal beings certainly can’t perceive femtoseconds, or Planck time. So instead of Infinite speed, if we use femtoseconds or Planck time, then its just a high degree of MFTL+.

 

[Malomtek]

I'm not gonna bother with the Reisen thing, since if you genuinely believe she used some kind of magic ability to make all the doors close instantly that she's never showcased before and has never been mentioned anywhere else, then I don't think anything I say will convince you. Though its worth noting she missed one, so it seems like something she would've physically done herself rather than just "its magic"

Something weird about this supposed feat too is how Reisen consistently talks of "sealing" the doors instead of just closing them. I'm pretty sure this "sealing" has nothing to do with anything particularly physical.

Keep on shouting! You'll only get banned. And then NOBODY will care about your opinion.

Go on, curse again! I'll report all your toxic comments in this thread, and then poof! No more Malomtek! If you don't want that, I highly suggest you act civil.

Your puerile attempts to threaten/blackmail me in order to feel powerful are noted, and scoffed at.

 

[Urshani]

Your puerile attempts to threaten/blackmail me in order to feel powerful are noted, and scoffed at.

You talk far too smug for someone debating over fictional character statistics. This isn't Spacebattles, or Comicvine, or Reddit. Cease with the meanspiritness NOW.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Can we not talk like this and just be civil please. Like we can just as easily give out our thoughts in less aggressive mannerisms right? I just back after a long long hiatus and tbh idk if I will stick around longer but I’m pretty sure we still have rules against name calling and aggressiveness in forums discussions right?

 

[Urshani]

Can we not talk like this and just be civil please. Like we can just as easily give out our thoughts in less aggressive mannerisms right? I just back after a long long hiatus and tbh idk if I will stick around longer but I’m pretty sure we still have rules against name calling and aggressiveness in forums discussions right?

I mean, I wasn't namecalling, Malomtek was. I've seen their behavior on other threads, and they're like this a lot.

also i already reported his comments

 

[Malomtek]

You talk far too smug for someone debating over fictional character statistics. This isn't Spacebattles, or Comicvine, or Reddit. Cease with the meanspiritness NOW.

You're not a moderator, and you have no right to command me to do anything. I'm sure that you think boldtext makes you look like some authority, but it doesn't.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Do we have any mods or higher up status members who are Touhou supporters? I think their help would be able to solve this. I’m personally still kind of iffy on Reisen and Kaguya’s Infinite speed feats, but I think Suika’s might work. So it’d be nice if we can get some experts here to give us their thoughts.

 

[Urshani]

You're not a moderator, and you have no right to command me to do anything. I'm sure that you think boldtext makes you look like some authority, but it doesn't.

Sure, bud! Whatever you say! Just trying to prevent your ban.

 

[Malomtek]

Sure, bud! Whatever you say! Just trying to prevent your ban.

also i already reported his comments

You're not slick, bro.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

(fujiwara you should also avoid things like "*******".)

I have a habit of swearing a lot, I'll try and cut it out for this forum. Sorry about that.

It seems that given the wider context of "manipulating time is manipulating space, and vice versa", it would be too hasty to assert that "single moments of time" can be separated from space either.

These "instants" are presumably analogous to infinitesimal units of space.

Did you even read the statement from ZUN himself? He makes it pretty clear that a single moments in time is exempt from the "time and space are connected" rule. Is WoG really not good enough now?

Reisen has psychic powers and can create forcefields out of waves (including brainwaves), so it's not nearly as "specific" as you're trying to make it out to be.

There's also the sticking fact that no one and nothing explained how exactly Reisen "sealed" all those doors to begin with.

And, unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise, those psychic powers do not include telekinesis. Not only that, but Reisen only has planetary range at most with those abilities, so she would still need to move in order to affect the doors furthest away, which would be infinitely far away. Infinity minus one planet's worth of distance is still infinity.

Because it's true logic. If a character can supposedly move at infinite/immeasurable speeds, yet he constantly requires relatively prolonged periods of time to get to certain locations, or any distances beyond like a kilometer, then he isn't actually infinite or immeasurable in speeds. This is true for Touhou characters, funnily enough, and your dumb stonewalling won't make it otherwise.

Well, if you want to go around debunking every verse's speed using this logic, then I won't stop you. But literally no one will ever agree with you in that regard. Complain about it all you want, but by this wiki's standards, this argument doesn't hold water. And yet again, you could make this same argument against the numerous FTL/MFTL feats, except I seriously doubt anyone will take your side there when even fodder can reach FTL speeds.

I'm pretty sure you can reasonably represent the background rapidly shifting and distorting to represent characters in a bullet hell shoot-'em-up moving at infinite/immeasurable speeds without having the game become literally unplayable as a result.

After all, background image movements are pretty much the reason that PC-98 2hus are rated as "possibly Massively FTL+" here.

These bullshit excuses are becoming increasingly lame and tiresome.

Again, this would be inconsistent even with the verse's current speed ratings. Most characters never visibly surpass subsonic speeds in the games, and even that is pretty generous. If you have a problem with separating background scrolls from far more reliable showcases of speed, then be fair about it and apply it to everything. But you won't, because you know as well as I do that nobody will agree with you.

I refer to the above statement, with the addition that there are some low showings that cannot just be handwaved away as "game mechanics". Kaguya's seeming inability to use her "instant movement" when you actually fight her in the story is one of them. Maybe that's just a plot contrivance. Who knows? I'm still sticking with the facts here.

I'm not going down this route again. Just because a character's speed is not visually conveyed in one instance does not mean they are incapable of moving at that speed at all. And what even are these low showings you're talking about? If you have actual anti feats and not just "background scroll lol", then I would love to see them.

Song titles, being "poetry" more than anything that has to do with the plot or characters or feats or anything about the story, aren't meaningful "evidence" in any way, shape, or form.

Maybe @Saikou_The_Lewd_King has an explanation for why Touhou is the incredibly rare exception here, but until he does, I'm sticking to the side of facts and reality, and not delusion and untruth.

Except they literally are about the story and characters, at least in Touhou's case. Not all of them of course, but stuff like Doll Judgement ~ The Girl Who Played with People's Shapes and The Traditional Old Man and the Stylish Girl are clearly about the characters the themes are composed for. They're not just names ZUN came up with to sound pretty, they have genuine meaning in the context of the games and CDs.

 

[Urshani]

you know i was going to respond to him but

I disagree with Malomtek about everything he has said in this thread, and will say, and has said

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Do we have any mods or higher up status members who are Touhou supporters? I think their help would be able to solve this. I’m personally still kind of iffy on Reisen and Kaguya’s Infinite speed feats, but I think Suika’s might work. So it’d be nice if we can get some experts here to give us their thoughts.

Saikou, CrimsonStarFallen, Theglassman12, and Promestein.
I don't care what everyone else says, all the infinite speed feats are valid in my heart

 

[Mobi2]

Do we have any mods or higher up status members who are Touhou supporters? I think their help would be able to solve this. I’m personally still kind of iffy on Reisen and Kaguya’s Infinite speed feats, but I think Suika’s might work. So it’d be nice if we can get some experts here to give us their thoughts.

I think maybe one way to clear up some confusion on the Reisen dealing part is that she said she messed up one seal due to not having enough time which would correlate to perception/reaction oddly enough. Also, she just hops out of nowhere telling them that all the doors have been sealed. I'll link the 5th stage from IN if you want to take a look at it timestamp should be 2:26
()



If this is too vague for you maybe we should give Reisen infinite range via sealing or something like that.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I don't care what everyone else says, all the infinite speed feats are valid in my heart

Its okay, I get it, I’d love for Touhou to be infinite speed too, just so they can blitzhax everyone hehe. But yeah, I just feel like the Reisen feat is a little too vague for consideration, and Kaguya’s comes from assumptions since a moment so short that normal beings cant perceive it can be as measly as microseconds. Even Planck time wouldnt be infinite speed, just insanely high up into MFTL+. Sorry.

But yeah, I guess we should ask them, maybe they’ll prove me wrong or convince me.

Update: Infinite range seems very good and something I can buy.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, infinite speed wouldn't mean she's incapable of making mistakes. It's pretty easy to assume she just didn't notice the last door, or that the protagonists showed up early (since they'd have infinite speed as well). Her having infinite range via an ability she's never shown anywhere else is... questionable. Assuming it's sealing via the actual ability and not any other method is a pretty big stretch, since what counts as 'sealing' a door is pretty wide ranging. Even just closing a door counts as 'sealing' it, in a sense.

Its okay, I get it, I’d love for Touhou to be infinite speed too, just so they can blitzhax everyone hehe. But yeah, I just feel like the Reisen feat is a little too vague for consideration, and Kaguya’s comes from assumptions since a moment so short that normal beings cant perceive it can be as measly as microseconds. Even Planck time wouldnt be infinite speed, just insanely high up into MFTL+. Sorry.

But yeah, I guess we should ask them, maybe they’ll prove me wrong or convince me.

Update: Infinite range seems very good and something I can buy.

We still have Suika to fall back on if everything else is rejected. I already made my point about how the debunk of Kaguya's feat is contradictory with other sources, so I'll just leave it at that. Not like having infinite speed would matter much in debates on this site since speed is almost always equalized anyways

 

[Malomtek]

Did you even read the statement from ZUN himself? He makes it pretty clear that a single moments in time is exempt from the "time and space are connected" rule. Is WoG really not good enough now?

Why would single moments of time be arbitrarily exempt from this "manipulations of time and space are connected" rule, especially given the wider context of everything involved?

It's like saying single centimeters of space are exempt when they have no reason to be.

And, unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise, those psychic powers do not include telekinesis. Not only that, but Reisen only has planetary range at most with those abilities, so she would still need to move in order to affect the doors furthest away, which would be infinitely far away. Infinity minus one planet's worth of distance is still infinity.

I just want to repeat that this supposed feat has Reisen consistently talking of "sealing" the doors instead of just closing them. I'm pretty sure this "sealing" has nothing to do with anything particularly physical, but since we don't know anything about the actual mechanics of this "sealing" (or at least nothing has been presented yet), we don't know enough about this feat to be able to "measure" it in any particular way, or confidently say anything about it one way or the other.

Well, if you want to go around debunking every verse's speed using this logic, then I won't stop you. But literally no one will ever agree with you in that regard. Complain about it all you want, but by this wiki's standards, this argument doesn't hold water. And yet again, you could make this same argument against the numerous FTL/MFTL feats, except I seriously doubt anyone will take your side there when even fodder can reach FTL speeds.

I think you're deliberately ignoring the fact that "moving at infinite or immeasurable speeds, speeds where conventional S = D/T measurements don't actually apply" is a qualitatively different claim and ranking than essentially "he can move really really fast" (how MFTL speeds are generally treated in fiction).

Again, this would be inconsistent even with the verse's current speed ratings. Most characters never visibly surpass subsonic speeds in the games, and even that is pretty generous. If you have a problem with separating background scrolls from far more reliable showcases of speed, then be fair about it and apply it to everything. But you won't, because you know as well as I do that nobody will agree with you.

Are we gonna use "cinematic/gameplay time" to save immeasurable speed Touhou? Because then you'd just be engaging in circular logic, since immeasurably fast 2hus are still pretty contentious as of now, but you're just sort of assuming them to be true by default at this point.

I'm not going down this route again. Just because a character's speed is not visually conveyed in one instance does not mean they are incapable of moving at that speed at all. And what even are these low showings you're talking about? If you have actual anti feats and not just "background scroll lol", then I would love to see them.

Any time a 2hu wants to go somewhere in the universe for some "serious" reason in the plot and doesn't take negative to zero seconds to get there.

Again, infinite/immeasurable speed is qualitatively different from any kind of finite speed ranking, and such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Except they literally are about the story and characters, at least in Touhou's case. Not all of them of course, but stuff like Doll Judgement ~ The Girl Who Played with People's Shapes and The Traditional Old Man and the Stylish Girl are clearly about the characters the themes are composed for. They're not just names ZUN came up with to sound pretty, they have genuine meaning in the context of the games and CDs.

Which characters? What themes? Are you getting feats from these music lyrics or something?

Again, this all just sounds like flowery "poetry", like what a lot of music is. It's absurd to take that as "evidence" of anything. This is like using "Solid State Scouter" to "prove" that pre-DBS Bardock should be around star level because he fought people with power levels of 220,000 before facing Frieza.

you know i was going to respond to him but

I disagree with Malomtek about everything he has said in this thread, and will say, and has said

That's nice.

Now run along, kid.

Saikou, CrimsonStarFallen, Theglassman12, and Promestein.

Promestein and Theglassman12 have already told me in private that they're not "up to date" on Touhou lore as of now.

 

[Urshani]

That's nice.

Now run along, kid.

Nah.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Its okay, I get it, I’d love for Touhou to be infinite speed too, just so they can blitzhax everyone hehe. But yeah, I just feel like the Reisen feat is a little too vague for consideration, and Kaguya’s comes from assumptions since a moment so short that normal beings cant perceive it can be as measly as microseconds. Even Planck time wouldnt be infinite speed, just insanely high up into MFTL+. Sorry.

Except Toyohime only compares, not the actual thing, Kaguya being the girl that's the ability is to mess with time would know better. In this case, it's Instantaneous.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Oh no, a character takes a 2 seconds to travel from place A to place B, therefore they're not immeasurable/infinite speed at all.

Meanwhile Blazblue characters are rated immeasurable because they can travel the Cauldron.

 

[Malomtek]

Oh no, a character takes a 2 seconds to travel from place A to place B, therefore they're not immeasurable/infinite speed at all.

Well, if they were moving "seriously" (and not "casually") and they still take time, then...yeah.

Meanwhile Blazblue characters are rated immeasurable because they can travel the Cauldron.

I honestly think that stuff should be scrutinized more, because it looks more like they're only immeasurably fast through a certain medium (the "Boundary") that doesn't scale to any of them intrinsically or personally.

But that's a CRT for another time, and not really relevant right now.

 

[Promestein]

Alright, alright, here I am.

Run things over for me, please and thanks, so I can offer my piece anyways.

Also, stop bickering or else you'll both get yourselves banned. Chill the **** out.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why would single moments of time be arbitrarily exempt from this "manipulations of time and space are connected" rule, especially given the wider context of everything involved?

It's like saying single centimeters of space are exempt when they have no reason to be.

Uh, because WoG says so? I'm not gonna post the text again man, if you genuinely believe a direct statement from ZUN himself isn't enough proof then I don't know what would be.

I just want to repeat that this supposed feat has Reisen consistently talking of "sealing" the doors instead of just closing them. I'm pretty sure this "sealing" has nothing to do with anything particularly physical, but since we don't know anything about the actual mechanics of this "sealing" (or at least nothing has been presented yet), we don't know enough about this feat to be able to "measure" it in any particular way, or confidently say anything about it one way or the other.

Except we can clearly see the doors are closed. No magical barriers or whatever you wanna imagine, just doors that are clearly physically closed.

Wow, look at all those doors! And look at how closed they are! I bet this could've only been accomplished with magic

I think you're deliberately ignoring the fact that "moving at infinite or immeasurable speeds, speeds where conventional S = D/T measurements don't actually apply" is a qualitatively different claim and ranking than essentially "he can move really really fast" (how MFTL speeds are generally treated in fiction).

In the sense that visuals don't always line up with how fast a character can move in lore/statements? It is the same claim in the sense that both are technically contradicted by what the player sees, but isn't usable as an anti-feat because discrepancies like this are extremely common in fiction.

Are we gonna use "cinematic/gameplay time" to save immeasurable speed Touhou? Because then you'd just be engaging in circular logic, since immeasurably fast 2hus are still pretty contentious as of now, but you're just sort of assuming them to be true by default at this point.

Immeasurable speed was already rejected and I'm no longer advocating for it, this isn't relevant.

Any time a 2hu wants to go somewhere in the universe for some "serious" reason in the plot and doesn't take negative to zero seconds to get there.

Again, infinite/immeasurable speed is qualitatively different from any kind of finite speed ranking, and such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You're forgetting that most incidents require some degree of figuring out who the culprit even is first. No Touhou game starts out with Reimu going "wow this sucks, good thing I already know exactly who to beat the shit out of", she has to actively figure out who is even responsible and fight everyone else who gets in her way. Infinite speed doesn't inherently mean you always know where you're going or who you're even looking for. There's more to this series than just "go in a perfectly straight line right to the bad guy as fast as possible".

And I've given plenty of evidence, you just don't seem to really care about any of it.

Which characters? What themes? Are you getting feats from these music lyrics or something?

Again, this all just sounds like flowery "poetry", like what a lot of music is. It's absurd to take that as "evidence" of anything. This is like using "Solid State Scouter" to "prove" that pre-DBS Bardock should be around star level because he fought people with power levels of 220,000 before facing Frieza.

The characters are Alice and Ichirin, respectively. And no, I'm not getting any feats from the music titles, I'm using them to provide elaboration on a statement made by another character. The title by itself gives us nothing, it requires context to be useful. You seem to be under the impression that the argument for infinite speed rests solely on the shoulders of this one song title, but you can't just cherry pick like that. There's a bigger picture you need to address here, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to do that.

That's nice.

Now run along, kid.

You're really hurting your credibility by being condescending to other people.

Promestein and Theglassman12 have already told me in private that they're not "up to date" on Touhou lore as of now.

Wasn't aware of this, though the stuff being discussed here is mostly from Imperishable Night, so they could still contribute if they're willing. Unless they've somehow been out of the loop since 2003

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Well, if they were moving "seriously" (and not "casually") and they still take time, then...yeah

You're assuming Touhou characters move seriously all the time, which obviously not the case, considering how many people in Gensokyo are lay back.

Alright, alright, here I am.

Run things over for me, please and thanks, so I can offer my piece anyways.

So basically you want the current argument?

 

[Promestein]

Yes.

 

[Malomtek]

Yes.

The current argument is whether Touhou Project characters can move at infinite/immeasurable speeds or not.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, I want to see the reasoning as to why.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, I'm pretty sure we're no longer arguing immeasurable speed. That was dropped a while ago when Ant disagreed with it. If anyone else wants to do it, be my guest, but so far the only discussion here has been related to infinite speed.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I just entered this thread, I don't know the whole argument for both side so can someone else do it?

 

[Malomtek]

Yes, I want to see the reasoning as to why.

The "why" of it is because of Reisen supposedly physically moving towards all the doors in a supposedly infinite corridor so she can "seal" them, along with something about how Kaguya's ability allowing her to move and act within single "instants" means she has infinite speed because "instant" apparently always means literally one-infinitieth of a second in Touhou.

 

[Promestein]

That is how Kaguya's ability works, yes. I understand that you're skeptical but some things are explained pretty clearly, yeah? Don't get so hung up on things that you don't have any context on. That being said, I am not under the impression that Kaguya's speed would scale to this in a general sense, nor that others would scale to it as well; it's an ability that has to be used.

As for Reisen's feat... that's stage 5 of IN, yes? Did she do that while the door corridor was infinite? That doesn't really make sense; after all, she failed to get one of the doors and mentions she just didn't have the time to do so. The corridor loops infinitely; in its original state it has a limited amount of doors. Reisen only had to close as many of those as possible before the corridor was looped, assuming there isn't explicit evidence that Reisen did so for infinite doors. Which makes no sense, because she still missed one.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's a pretty one sided description. The feats in question, without bias:

-Kaguya being able to move and act within instants, a countless amount of which make up time and are supposedly smaller than planck time based on Dr. Latency's Freak Report, but this contradicts Toyohime's statement which implies that an instant is merely a femtosecond.

-Reisen being able to close every door in Kaguya's infinite corridor in a finite period of time, though it's been argued she could've been using some sort of sealing technique with infinite range rather than just close the doors physically.

-Suika being able to destroy and subsequently recreate heaven, which is infinite, which should give her infinite attack speed. I have not yet seen any counterpoints to this argument.

There's a lot more here, but there's way too much that's already been argued to easily summarize. I hope these descriptions are acceptable. My personal opinion is that all of the above feats are valid and should scale to the majority of the verse.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Kaguya's speed with her ability should still scale to Mokou, as they've fought to the death for hundreds of years and there would be no reason for Kaguya to hold back in that case.

 

[Urshani]

Btw have people also discussed the String Theory 11D things for Touhou? I know 2-C is a thing now but how about High 1-C?

no not yet

 

[Promestein]

I already gave my take. I strongly disagree with using a song title as reference; at least not as a concrete, final sort of reference. We need to acknowledge every end given by the text, and non-song titles should take precedence.

I dunno about that, because that'd scale to Kaguya and then to everyone else, which results in broken scaling where the ability no longer means anything. Kaguya has her advantages and Mokou has her own advantages. These fights happen off-screen; we have no idea how either of them deal with each other's abilities and I'd rather not make assumptions regarding them.

String theory does not automatically result in High 1-C, sorry.