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Are you going to change the speed standards yet again? Or do you want to keep being salty?This is literally just the DB Heroes speed nonsense all over again.
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Are you going to change the speed standards yet again? Or do you want to keep being salty?This is literally just the DB Heroes speed nonsense all over again.
It seems that given the wider context of "manipulating time is manipulating space, and vice versa", it would be too hasty to assert that "single moments of time" can be separated from space either.So 'single moments of time' (in other words, an instant), can in fact be separated from space.
Reisen has psychic powers and can create forcefields out of waves (including brainwaves), so it's not nearly as "specific" as you're trying to make it out to be.Those are some incredible specific circumstances that you have absolutely 0 evidence for. Burden of proof is on you here.
Because it's true logic. If a character can supposedly move at infinite/immeasurable speeds, yet he constantly requires relatively prolonged periods of time to get to certain locations, or any distances beyond like a kilometer, then he isn't actually infinite or immeasurable in speeds. This is true for Touhou characters, funnily enough, and your dumb stonewalling won't make it otherwise.That's a single example. Any character with infinite/immeasurable speed can be 'debunked' according to your logic, because these characters aren't always moving at top speed. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Nobody needs to be moving at their peak 100% of the time to 'prove' infinite or immeasurable speed.
I would also appreciate it if you elaborated on how it's bullshit rather than just insist it is with nothing to back it up.
I'm pretty sure you can reasonably represent the background rapidly shifting and distorting to represent characters in a bullet hell shoot-'em-up moving at infinite/immeasurable speeds without having the game become literally unplayable as a result.Yes, because this is clearly an anti-feat rather than a case of game mechanics. Guilty Gear has immeasurable speed, but that speed isn't reflected in gameplay because if it was, the game would be literally unplayable and nobody would enjoy it. No character in any game you play will actually be moving at the speeds they should be moving at based on feats and lore, because if they were, nobody would ever play a single video game ever again. Please refrain from bringing up game mechanics/PIS in your arguments again, I'm getting tired of arguing against it.
I refer to the above statement, with the addition that there are some low showings that cannot just be handwaved away as "game mechanics". Kaguya's seeming inability to use her "instant movement" when you actually fight her in the story is one of them. Maybe that's just a plot contrivance. Who knows? I'm still sticking with the facts here.In that case, guess we better throw every single universal feat, FTL feat, all the notable hax, and minor characters out the window because they aren't represented in gameplay!
But seriously, characters are regularly depicted as faster or stronger in lore or statements in most verses, not just Touhou. This is basically standard practice for the wiki. 90% of what is present on the Touhou pages right now is reliant on lore statements such as Reisen's door feat or Kaguya's instant movement. To throw these out on the basis of "they're not reflected in gameplay" is, pardon my french, ******* idiotic.
Song titles, being "poetry" more than anything that has to do with the plot or characters or feats or anything about the story, aren't meaningful "evidence" in any way, shape, or form.It just further confirms what was already being discussed here. Nothing about it being a song title would make it wrong to use, unless it is somehow contradictory to something we already know for a fact, which it isn't.
PM me this Discord server. I have quite a few things to say there.You need to cut the attitude, we never once attacked you nor have we done something that should affect your mental/emotional health. We're revising an outdated verse, with open minded interpretations, in which we still discuss our opinions thoroughly both here and the private discord to make sure we come to a viable consensus, this should not hurt you enough to where you have to spew words like "bullshit". (fujiwara you should also avoid things like "*******".)
I wish I could unilaterally change this forum's speed standards, just to see you whine like the incontinent little boy you are when I downgrade all your favorite verses to shit.Are you going to change the speed standards yet again? Or do you want to keep being salty?
Keep on shouting! You'll only get banned. And then NOBODY will care about your opinion.I wish I could unilaterally change this forum's speed standards, just to see you whine like the incontinent little boy you are when I downgrade all your favorite verses to shit.
Something weird about this supposed feat too is how Reisen consistently talks of "sealing" the doors instead of just closing them. I'm pretty sure this "sealing" has nothing to do with anything particularly physical.I'm not gonna bother with the Reisen thing, since if you genuinely believe she used some kind of magic ability to make all the doors close instantly that she's never showcased before and has never been mentioned anywhere else, then I don't think anything I say will convince you. Though its worth noting she missed one, so it seems like something she would've physically done herself rather than just "its magic"
Your puerile attempts to threaten/blackmail me in order to feel powerful are noted, and scoffed at.Keep on shouting! You'll only get banned. And then NOBODY will care about your opinion.
Go on, curse again! I'll report all your toxic comments in this thread, and then poof! No more Malomtek! If you don't want that, I highly suggest you act civil.
You talk far too smug for someone debating over fictional character statistics. This isn't Spacebattles, or Comicvine, or Reddit. Cease with the meanspiritness NOW.Your puerile attempts to threaten/blackmail me in order to feel powerful are noted, and scoffed at.
I mean, I wasn't namecalling, Malomtek was. I've seen their behavior on other threads, and they're like this a lot.Can we not talk like this and just be civil please. Like we can just as easily give out our thoughts in less aggressive mannerisms right? I just back after a long long hiatus and tbh idk if I will stick around longer but I’m pretty sure we still have rules against name calling and aggressiveness in forums discussions right?
You're not a moderator, and you have no right to command me to do anything. I'm sure that you think boldtext makes you look like some authority, but it doesn't.You talk far too smug for someone debating over fictional character statistics. This isn't Spacebattles, or Comicvine, or Reddit. Cease with the meanspiritness NOW.
Sure, bud! Whatever you say! Just trying to prevent your ban.You're not a moderator, and you have no right to command me to do anything. I'm sure that you think boldtext makes you look like some authority, but it doesn't.
Sure, bud! Whatever you say! Just trying to prevent your ban.
You're not slick, bro.also i already reported his comments
I have a habit of swearing a lot, I'll try and cut it out for this forum. Sorry about that.(fujiwara you should also avoid things like "*******".)
Did you even read the statement from ZUN himself? He makes it pretty clear that a single moments in time is exempt from the "time and space are connected" rule. Is WoG really not good enough now?It seems that given the wider context of "manipulating time is manipulating space, and vice versa", it would be too hasty to assert that "single moments of time" can be separated from space either.
These "instants" are presumably analogous to infinitesimal units of space.
And, unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise, those psychic powers do not include telekinesis. Not only that, but Reisen only has planetary range at most with those abilities, so she would still need to move in order to affect the doors furthest away, which would be infinitely far away. Infinity minus one planet's worth of distance is still infinity.Reisen has psychic powers and can create forcefields out of waves (including brainwaves), so it's not nearly as "specific" as you're trying to make it out to be.
There's also the sticking fact that no one and nothing explained how exactly Reisen "sealed" all those doors to begin with.
Well, if you want to go around debunking every verse's speed using this logic, then I won't stop you. But literally no one will ever agree with you in that regard. Complain about it all you want, but by this wiki's standards, this argument doesn't hold water. And yet again, you could make this same argument against the numerous FTL/MFTL feats, except I seriously doubt anyone will take your side there when even fodder can reach FTL speeds.Because it's true logic. If a character can supposedly move at infinite/immeasurable speeds, yet he constantly requires relatively prolonged periods of time to get to certain locations, or any distances beyond like a kilometer, then he isn't actually infinite or immeasurable in speeds. This is true for Touhou characters, funnily enough, and your dumb stonewalling won't make it otherwise.
Again, this would be inconsistent even with the verse's current speed ratings. Most characters never visibly surpass subsonic speeds in the games, and even that is pretty generous. If you have a problem with separating background scrolls from far more reliable showcases of speed, then be fair about it and apply it to everything. But you won't, because you know as well as I do that nobody will agree with you.I'm pretty sure you can reasonably represent the background rapidly shifting and distorting to represent characters in a bullet hell shoot-'em-up moving at infinite/immeasurable speeds without having the game become literally unplayable as a result.
After all, background image movements are pretty much the reason that PC-98 2hus are rated as "possibly Massively FTL+" here.
These bullshit excuses are becoming increasingly lame and tiresome.
I'm not going down this route again. Just because a character's speed is not visually conveyed in one instance does not mean they are incapable of moving at that speed at all. And what even are these low showings you're talking about? If you have actual anti feats and not just "background scroll lol", then I would love to see them.I refer to the above statement, with the addition that there are some low showings that cannot just be handwaved away as "game mechanics". Kaguya's seeming inability to use her "instant movement" when you actually fight her in the story is one of them. Maybe that's just a plot contrivance. Who knows? I'm still sticking with the facts here.
Except they literally are about the story and characters, at least in Touhou's case. Not all of them of course, but stuff like Doll Judgement ~ The Girl Who Played with People's Shapes and The Traditional Old Man and the Stylish Girl are clearly about the characters the themes are composed for. They're not just names ZUN came up with to sound pretty, they have genuine meaning in the context of the games and CDs.Song titles, being "poetry" more than anything that has to do with the plot or characters or feats or anything about the story, aren't meaningful "evidence" in any way, shape, or form.
Maybe @Saikou_The_Lewd_King has an explanation for why Touhou is the incredibly rare exception here, but until he does, I'm sticking to the side of facts and reality, and not delusion and untruth.
Saikou, CrimsonStarFallen, Theglassman12, and Promestein.Do we have any mods or higher up status members who are Touhou supporters? I think their help would be able to solve this. I’m personally still kind of iffy on Reisen and Kaguya’s Infinite speed feats, but I think Suika’s might work. So it’d be nice if we can get some experts here to give us their thoughts.
I think maybe one way to clear up some confusion on the Reisen dealing part is that she said she messed up one seal due to not having enough time which would correlate to perception/reaction oddly enough. Also, she just hops out of nowhere telling them that all the doors have been sealed. I'll link the 5th stage from IN if you want to take a look at it timestamp should be 2:26Do we have any mods or higher up status members who are Touhou supporters? I think their help would be able to solve this. I’m personally still kind of iffy on Reisen and Kaguya’s Infinite speed feats, but I think Suika’s might work. So it’d be nice if we can get some experts here to give us their thoughts.
Its okay, I get it, I’d love for Touhou to be infinite speed too, just so they can blitzhax everyone hehe. But yeah, I just feel like the Reisen feat is a little too vague for consideration, and Kaguya’s comes from assumptions since a moment so short that normal beings cant perceive it can be as measly as microseconds. Even Planck time wouldnt be infinite speed, just insanely high up into MFTL+. Sorry.I don't care what everyone else says, all the infinite speed feats are valid in my heart
We still have Suika to fall back on if everything else is rejected. I already made my point about how the debunk of Kaguya's feat is contradictory with other sources, so I'll just leave it at that.Its okay, I get it, I’d love for Touhou to be infinite speed too, just so they can blitzhax everyone hehe. But yeah, I just feel like the Reisen feat is a little too vague for consideration, and Kaguya’s comes from assumptions since a moment so short that normal beings cant perceive it can be as measly as microseconds. Even Planck time wouldnt be infinite speed, just insanely high up into MFTL+. Sorry.
But yeah, I guess we should ask them, maybe they’ll prove me wrong or convince me.
Update: Infinite range seems very good and something I can buy.
Why would single moments of time be arbitrarily exempt from this "manipulations of time and space are connected" rule, especially given the wider context of everything involved?Did you even read the statement from ZUN himself? He makes it pretty clear that a single moments in time is exempt from the "time and space are connected" rule. Is WoG really not good enough now?
I just want to repeat that this supposed feat has Reisen consistently talking of "sealing" the doors instead of just closing them. I'm pretty sure this "sealing" has nothing to do with anything particularly physical, but since we don't know anything about the actual mechanics of this "sealing" (or at least nothing has been presented yet), we don't know enough about this feat to be able to "measure" it in any particular way, or confidently say anything about it one way or the other.And, unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise, those psychic powers do not include telekinesis. Not only that, but Reisen only has planetary range at most with those abilities, so she would still need to move in order to affect the doors furthest away, which would be infinitely far away. Infinity minus one planet's worth of distance is still infinity.
I think you're deliberately ignoring the fact that "moving at infinite or immeasurable speeds, speeds where conventional S = D/T measurements don't actually apply" is a qualitatively different claim and ranking than essentially "he can move really really fast" (how MFTL speeds are generally treated in fiction).Well, if you want to go around debunking every verse's speed using this logic, then I won't stop you. But literally no one will ever agree with you in that regard. Complain about it all you want, but by this wiki's standards, this argument doesn't hold water. And yet again, you could make this same argument against the numerous FTL/MFTL feats, except I seriously doubt anyone will take your side there when even fodder can reach FTL speeds.
Are we gonna use "cinematic/gameplay time" to save immeasurable speed Touhou? Because then you'd just be engaging in circular logic, since immeasurably fast 2hus are still pretty contentious as of now, but you're just sort of assuming them to be true by default at this point.Again, this would be inconsistent even with the verse's current speed ratings. Most characters never visibly surpass subsonic speeds in the games, and even that is pretty generous. If you have a problem with separating background scrolls from far more reliable showcases of speed, then be fair about it and apply it to everything. But you won't, because you know as well as I do that nobody will agree with you.
Any time a 2hu wants to go somewhere in the universe for some "serious" reason in the plot and doesn't take negative to zero seconds to get there.I'm not going down this route again. Just because a character's speed is not visually conveyed in one instance does not mean they are incapable of moving at that speed at all. And what even are these low showings you're talking about? If you have actual anti feats and not just "background scroll lol", then I would love to see them.
Which characters? What themes? Are you getting feats from these music lyrics or something?Except they literally are about the story and characters, at least in Touhou's case. Not all of them of course, but stuff like Doll Judgement ~ The Girl Who Played with People's Shapes and The Traditional Old Man and the Stylish Girl are clearly about the characters the themes are composed for. They're not just names ZUN came up with to sound pretty, they have genuine meaning in the context of the games and CDs.
That's nice.you know i was going to respond to him but
I disagree with Malomtek about everything he has said in this thread, and will say, and has said
Promestein and Theglassman12 have already told me in private that they're not "up to date" on Touhou lore as of now.Saikou, CrimsonStarFallen, Theglassman12, and Promestein.
Nah.That's nice.
Now run along, kid.
Except Toyohime only compares, not the actual thing, Kaguya being the girl that's the ability is to mess with time would know better. In this case, it's Instantaneous.Its okay, I get it, I’d love for Touhou to be infinite speed too, just so they can blitzhax everyone hehe. But yeah, I just feel like the Reisen feat is a little too vague for consideration, and Kaguya’s comes from assumptions since a moment so short that normal beings cant perceive it can be as measly as microseconds. Even Planck time wouldnt be infinite speed, just insanely high up into MFTL+. Sorry.
Well, if they were moving "seriously" (and not "casually") and they still take time, then...yeah.Oh no, a character takes a 2 seconds to travel from place A to place B, therefore they're not immeasurable/infinite speed at all.
I honestly think that stuff should be scrutinized more, because it looks more like they're only immeasurably fast through a certain medium (the "Boundary") that doesn't scale to any of them intrinsically or personally.Meanwhile Blazblue characters are rated immeasurable because they can travel the Cauldron.
Uh, because WoG says so? I'm not gonna post the text again man, if you genuinely believe a direct statement from ZUN himself isn't enough proof then I don't know what would be.Why would single moments of time be arbitrarily exempt from this "manipulations of time and space are connected" rule, especially given the wider context of everything involved?
It's like saying single centimeters of space are exempt when they have no reason to be.
Except we can clearly see the doors are closed. No magical barriers or whatever you wanna imagine, just doors that are clearly physically closed.I just want to repeat that this supposed feat has Reisen consistently talking of "sealing" the doors instead of just closing them. I'm pretty sure this "sealing" has nothing to do with anything particularly physical, but since we don't know anything about the actual mechanics of this "sealing" (or at least nothing has been presented yet), we don't know enough about this feat to be able to "measure" it in any particular way, or confidently say anything about it one way or the other.
In the sense that visuals don't always line up with how fast a character can move in lore/statements? It is the same claim in the sense that both are technically contradicted by what the player sees, but isn't usable as an anti-feat because discrepancies like this are extremely common in fiction.I think you're deliberately ignoring the fact that "moving at infinite or immeasurable speeds, speeds where conventional S = D/T measurements don't actually apply" is a qualitatively different claim and ranking than essentially "he can move really really fast" (how MFTL speeds are generally treated in fiction).
Immeasurable speed was already rejected and I'm no longer advocating for it, this isn't relevant.Are we gonna use "cinematic/gameplay time" to save immeasurable speed Touhou? Because then you'd just be engaging in circular logic, since immeasurably fast 2hus are still pretty contentious as of now, but you're just sort of assuming them to be true by default at this point.
You're forgetting that most incidents require some degree of figuring out who the culprit even is first. No Touhou game starts out with Reimu going "wow this sucks, good thing I already know exactly who to beat the shit out of", she has to actively figure out who is even responsible and fight everyone else who gets in her way. Infinite speed doesn't inherently mean you always know where you're going or who you're even looking for. There's more to this series than just "go in a perfectly straight line right to the bad guy as fast as possible".Any time a 2hu wants to go somewhere in the universe for some "serious" reason in the plot and doesn't take negative to zero seconds to get there.
Again, infinite/immeasurable speed is qualitatively different from any kind of finite speed ranking, and such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
The characters are Alice and Ichirin, respectively. And no, I'm not getting any feats from the music titles, I'm using them to provide elaboration on a statement made by another character. The title by itself gives us nothing, it requires context to be useful. You seem to be under the impression that the argument for infinite speed rests solely on the shoulders of this one song title, but you can't just cherry pick like that. There's a bigger picture you need to address here, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to do that.Which characters? What themes? Are you getting feats from these music lyrics or something?
Again, this all just sounds like flowery "poetry", like what a lot of music is. It's absurd to take that as "evidence" of anything. This is like using "Solid State Scouter" to "prove" that pre-DBS Bardock should be around star level because he fought people with power levels of 220,000 before facing Frieza.
You're really hurting your credibility by being condescending to other people.That's nice.
Now run along, kid.
Wasn't aware of this, though the stuff being discussed here is mostly from Imperishable Night, so they could still contribute if they're willing.Promestein and Theglassman12 have already told me in private that they're not "up to date" on Touhou lore as of now.
You're assuming Touhou characters move seriously all the time, which obviously not the case, considering how many people in Gensokyo are lay back.Well, if they were moving "seriously" (and not "casually") and they still take time, then...yeah
So basically you want the current argument?Alright, alright, here I am.
Run things over for me, please and thanks, so I can offer my piece anyways.
The current argument is whether Touhou Project characters can move at infinite/immeasurable speeds or not.Yes.
The "why" of it is because of Reisen supposedly physically moving towards all the doors in a supposedly infinite corridor so she can "seal" them, along with something about how Kaguya's ability allowing her to move and act within single "instants" means she has infinite speed because "instant" apparently always means literally one-infinitieth of a second in Touhou.Yes, I want to see the reasoning as to why.
no not yetBtw have people also discussed the String Theory 11D things for Touhou? I know 2-C is a thing now but how about High 1-C?