Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Promestein]

Also, I dunno, why're we assuming Suika destroyed all of Heaven at once...? Unless I'm missing something, that article in Bohemian Archive only describes Suika as 'shattering the heavens'; 天界, Tenkai, the kanji that refers to Heaven in Touhou, is not used in the article whatsoever. Suika "shattered the heavens", an ambiguous statement that we cannot concretely take to be a High 3-A feat, unless I'm missing something.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Suika breaks heavens with an s, and heaven is infinite. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[Mobi2]

Also, I dunno, why're we assuming Suika destroyed all of Heaven at once...? Unless I'm missing something, that article in Bohemian Archive only describes Suika as 'shattering the heavens'; 天界, Tenkai, the kanji that refers to Heaven in Touhou, is not used in the article whatsoever. Suika "shattered the heavens", an ambiguous statement that we cannot concretely take to be a High 3-A feat, unless I'm missing something.

Pretty sure that was a mistranslation people in the community have pointed it out. she broke tengai (the canopy)

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

String theory does not automatically result in High 1-C, sorry

Yeah but Touhou also works with Brane Cosmology, The Strings got opened up by Brane Cosmology resulting in H1-C Cosmology.

 

[Mobi2]

Suika breaks heavens with an s, and heaven is infinite. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

I was gonna bring that up in another crt but the kanji for it was tengai instead of tenkai

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, when Suika recreates the heavens, Aya states that she sees the individual fragments move back into place. Considering Heaven is infinitely large, at least some of those fragments would have to be moving at infinite speed. So Suika has infinite attack speed with her density manipulation, which could scale to the rest of the cast reacting to and dodging her attacks.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I was gonna bring that up in another crt but the kanji for it was tengai instead of tenkai

I don't know anything about Japanese, sorry.

 

[Promestein]

And what size is Tengai compared to Tenkai? What relation do they have? Please show me where the text says Tengai = Tenkai, or that Tengai is infinite. This is what I am dispusting. We don't even seem to have much elaboration on what Tengai is; it's the "canopy", the "roof of the heavens"; but we have to realize that the character 天 can simply refer to the sky under certain contexts.

Also, as an aside, I forget where the infinite Tenkai statement comes from.

Brane cosmology is not instantly High 1-C, to my understanding, it depends on the context.

 

[Mobi2]

And what size is Tengai compared to Tenkai? What relation do they have? Please show me where the text says Tengai = Tenkai, or that Tengai is infinite. This is what I am dispusting. We don't even seem to have much elaboration on what Tengai is; it's the "canopy", the "roof of the heavens"; but we have to realize that the character 天 can simply refer to the sky under certain contexts.

Also, as an aside, I forget where the infinite Tenkai statement comes from.

Brane cosmology is not instantly High 1-C, to my understanding, it depends on the context.

people just mistranslated tengai into tenkai it could've just been the canopy above gensokyo it's ambiguous. The only real statement that we have for tenkai being potentially destroyed is when Tenshi's dream clone said she was gonna destroy it, and Shion and Joon thinking that she was enough of a threat to do so.

 

[Malomtek]

Uh, because WoG says so? I'm not gonna post the text again man, if you genuinely believe a direct statement from ZUN himself isn't enough proof then I don't know what would be.

I believe you're interpreting it wrong, not that the statement itself is invalid.

And since the "immeasurable speed" nonsense has been dropped, we can move on to debunking "infinite speed".

Except we can clearly see the doors are closed. No magical barriers or whatever you wanna imagine, just doors that are clearly physically closed.

Wow, look at all those doors! And look at how closed they are! I bet this could've only been accomplished with magic

The "seals" or whatever Reisen did with those doors don't have to be immediately visible for them to not have been closed in a "normal" manner, but again, we don't get the mechanics of this "sealing", so we can't really say one way or the other on that one.

In the sense that visuals don't always line up with how fast a character can move in lore/statements? It is the same claim in the sense that both are technically contradicted by what the player sees, but isn't usable as an anti-feat because discrepancies like this are extremely common in fiction.

Not really. Again, there's a distinct conceptual difference between "he can move anywhere real fast, but at an ultimately finite speed" and "he can move anywhere at no time at all, because of his infinite speed". Any time where a purportedly "infinitely fast" character has to go somewhere quickly but requires some significantly detectible portion of time to so is essentially a severe contradiction of his "infinitely fast" status.

You're forgetting that most incidents require some degree of figuring out who the culprit even is first. No Touhou game starts out with Reimu going "wow this sucks, good thing I already know exactly who to beat the shit out of", she has to actively figure out who is even responsible and fight everyone else who gets in her way. Infinite speed doesn't inherently mean you always know where you're going or who you're even looking for. There's more to this series than just "go in a perfectly straight line right to the bad guy as fast as possible".

And I've given plenty of evidence, you just don't seem to really care about any of it.

And when the culprit does get found out, and things get hot, and shit starts to get serious? Why no "infinite speed" then? Why are the Touhou characters not zippin' and zoppin' through dimensions and shit?

As for evidence, you have a vague "feat" of unknown mechanics and an extreme, "no limits fallacy"-tier extrapolation from a description of a character's ability.

Not enough, I must say.

The characters are Alice and Ichirin, respectively. And no, I'm not getting any feats from the music titles, I'm using them to provide elaboration on a statement made by another character. The title by itself gives us nothing, it requires context to be useful. You seem to be under the impression that the argument for infinite speed rests solely on the shoulders of this one song title, but you can't just cherry pick like that. There's a bigger picture you need to address here, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to do that.

"Are you getting feats from these music lyrics or something?"

You didn't address that part of my post, sir.

You're really hurting your credibility by being condescending to other people.

That little spat doesn't concern you, and it's pretty much finished anyway.

Wasn't aware of this, though the stuff being discussed here is mostly from Imperishable Night, so they could still contribute if they're willing. Unless they've somehow been out of the loop since 2003

Okay.

@Theglassman12 you still here?

Don't get so hung up on things that you don't have any context on.

I'm pretty sure that given the malleability of the term instant, which generally just means "one second or far less" in typical conversation, I'm going to need a lot more context than "wow instants are really small" in order to accept infinite speed Kaguya.

Something like a Touhou character traversing the lengths of the entire universe, perhaps.

 

[Mobi2]

And what size is Tengai compared to Tenkai? What relation do they have? Please show me where the text says Tengai = Tenkai, or that Tengai is infinite. This is what I am dispusting. We don't even seem to have much elaboration on what Tengai is; it's the "canopy", the "roof of the heavens"; but we have to realize that the character 天 can simply refer to the sky under certain contexts.

Also, as an aside, I forget where the infinite Tenkai statement comes from.

Brane cosmology is not instantly High 1-C, to my understanding, it depends on the context.

Also I wanted to add that that clone of tenshi was also shaking tenkai according to joon

 

[Promestein]

That's more notable! Where's the infinite Tenkai statement from again, though? If we're talking about this I want to be able to look into it, especially when we have mistranslations and misinterpretations.

As far as I can see

• Tengai (the roof of the heavens) has nothing to do with Tenkai (the Celestial Heaven)
• Tengai has more to do with the Moon than with Heaven and only comes up in these contexts
• Tenkai is full of people Suika's strength or greater, I really have to wonder how Suika could casually nuke and recreate it without consequence

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

What the heck is Tenkai, speak English please.

 

[Promestein]

I clearly explained everything, so try reading English instead of telling me to speak it. But, to say it again;

Tenkai is Heaven. I specified in Japanese because different Japanese terms are used for Heaven and the "heavens" that Suika shatters; these are not the same thing, not at all, and the latter term (Tengai) is never used alongside or in relation to Tenkai.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I clearly explained everything, so try reading English instead of telling me to speak it. But, to say it again;

Tenkai is Heaven. I specified in Japanese because different Japanese terms are used for Heaven and the "heavens" that Suika shatters; these are not the same thing, not at all, and the latter term (Tengai) is never used alongside or in relation to Tenkai.

So the Heaven that Suika break isn't the Heaven that Tenshi lives in?

 

[Mobi2]

That's more notable! Where's the infinite Tenkai statement from again, though? If we're talking about this I want to be able to look into it, especially when we have mistranslations and misinterpretations.

As far as I can see

• Tengai (the roof of the heavens) has nothing to do with Tenkai (the Celestial Heaven)
• Tengai has more to do with the Moon than with Heaven and only comes up in these contexts
• Tenkai is full of people Suika's strength or greater, I really have to wonder how Suika could casually nuke and recreate it without consequence

There were statements for the Netherworld being larger than hell (hell being infinite as stated by ZUN and in WBaWC) and Heaven being larger than the Netherworld. specifically in scarlet weather rhapsody. The tenshi clone heaven stuff is in antinomy of common flowers. https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Antinomy_of_Common_Flowers/Story/Joon's_Scenario. Suika should still scale because in SWR she did beat up tenshi to get some land on heaven.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, they're different.

To my understanding the Celestial Heaven (Tenkai) is another world. Tengai, the roof of the Heavens that Suika shatters, is a bit more like the Biblical firmament, a canopy in which the Moon is reflected. And again, nothing says that Suika completely destroyed Tengai. Tengai is only used in relation to the Moon and never in relation to Heaven itself. This is capital Heaven vs heavens in a more metaphorical sense.

Where's the infinite Hell statement come from? I wanna run this all over, so if you can find the specific quotes for the size comparisons I'd be very happy with that!

 

[Mobi2]

So the Heaven that Suika break isn't the Heaven that Tenshi lives in?

We don't even know if she destroyed any heavens because tengai can just translate to canopy or sky.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Yeah, they're different.

To my understanding the Celestial Heaven (Tenkai) is another world. Tengai, the roof of the Heavens that Suika shatters, is a bit more like the Biblical firmament, a canopy in which the Moon is reflected. And again, nothing says that Suika completely destroyed Tengai. Tengai is only used in relation to the Moon and never in relation to Heaven itself. This is capital Heaven vs heavens in a more metaphorical sense.

Where's the infinite Hell statement come from? I wanna run this all over, so if you can find the specific quotes for the size comparisons I'd be very happy with that!

I think it's from Wild and Horned Hermit.

 

[Mobi2]

Yeah, they're different.

To my understanding the Celestial Heaven (Tenkai) is another world. Tengai, the roof of the Heavens that Suika shatters, is a bit more like the Biblical firmament, a canopy in which the Moon is reflected. And again, nothing says that Suika completely destroyed Tengai. Tengai is only used in relation to the Moon and never in relation to Heaven itself. This is capital Heaven vs heavens in a more metaphorical sense.

Where's the infinite Hell statement come from? I wanna run this all over, so if you can find the specific quotes for the size comparisons I'd be very happy with that!

just give me a moment I'll grab them as quick as I can

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Now this is an interesting twist, the experience of learning something new is way better than infinite speed Touhou.

 

[Promestein]

You're an angel, Mobi, thank you.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Statement from ZUN regarding hell's size in a SCoOW interview.

Wild and Horned Hermit stating that hell is infinite (or at least Avici, but that's part of hell anyways)

 

[Guardian_Doge]

You're an angel, Mobi, thank you.

Me too

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Except Toyohime only compares, not the actual thing, Kaguya being the girl that's the ability is to mess with time would know better. In this case, it's Instantaneous.

An instant in time can really mean anything really. But fine, I relent to this point. But the scaling part to this would be weird. As what Prom said about the instants and speed Kaguya scaling:

I already gave my take. I strongly disagree with using a song title as reference; at least not as a concrete, final sort of reference. We need to acknowledge every end given by the text, and non-song titles should take precedence.

I dunno about that, because that'd scale to Kaguya and then to everyone else, which results in broken scaling where the ability no longer means anything. Kaguya has her advantages and Mokou has her own advantages. These fights happen off-screen; we have no idea how either of them deal with each other's abilities and I'd rather not make assumptions regarding them.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

An instant in time can really mean anything really. But fine, I relent to this point. But the scaling part to this would be weird. As what Prom said about the instants and speed Kaguya scaling:

Ok I got it.

 

[Mobi2]

You're an angel, Mobi, thank you.

Here is hell's size https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Stra...Beast_and_Weakest_Creature_Interview_with_ZUN

とにかく地獄はめちゃくちゃ広いんです。霊をたくさん受け入れられる。それこそ無限に広いんです。畜生界はお隣って言っているけど、まあちょっとだけ分かれてる、程度の感覚です。

The first thing about Hell is that it's stupidly large. It accepts tons of spirits. Just, you know, infinitely large. The Animal Realm's described as being "next door" to it, but in terms of perception it's only a little bit divided from it.

I apologize the statement about the netherworld being larger than hell is from PMiSS instead of SWR https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Yuyuko_Saigyouji

現在の冥界は地獄より広いと言われている。		It's said that the Netherworld today is larger than Hell.

The heaven one is here https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Scarlet_Weather_Rhapsody/Story/Yuyuko's_Scenario

天界は冥界よりも広い 天界といっても、いくつもの世界に別れています ここは……非想天ひそうてんかしら？

Heaven is even larger than the Netherworld. It's called Heaven, but they are separated like many different worlds. This must be... the thoughtless heaven (Hisouten)?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Hmmm
So if Suika really shattered Heaven, we could get at least 1 infinite speed feat here

The scans and translations shown here by Mobi say Heaven is larger Netherworld, which in turn is larger than Hell (which, as shown in the scan provided by Mokou, is infinite in size)

So there’s at least one Infinite speed feat if we dont allow Reisen’s and Kaguya’s. Is that considered an outlier, or not?

 

[Promestein]

Not much to dispute there, in all honesty. If I have any issue, it's just that statement on the Netherworld's size is fairly vague ("It's said") and that there's a massive amount of different Hells that this statement, which predates the elaboration on Hell's sheer size, could refer to, you know?

Suika didn't destroy Heaven, she shattered a part of a different structure referred to similarly. It's not a High 3-A feat or an Infinite speed feat.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Not much to dispute there, in all honesty. If I have any issue, it's just that statement on the Netherworld's size is fairly vague ("It's said") and that there's a massive amount of different Hells that this statement, which predates the elaboration on Hell's sheer size, could refer to, you know?

Suika didn't destroy Heaven, she shattered a part of a different structure referred to similarly. It's not a High 3-A feat or an Infinite speed feat.

Cool, what should we do now? Close the thread?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Suika didn't destroy Heaven, she shattered a part of a different structure referred to similarly. It's not a High 3-A feat or an Infinite speed feat.

Oh…. that sucks. I guess we don’t have any Infinite speed feats anymore, unless someone manages to cross or destroy the entire infinite sized Hell.

Does the creation of an infinite sized realm count for Infinite speed? I think someone in Touhou had to have made the realm in the first place.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I believe you're interpreting it wrong, not that the statement itself is invalid.

And since the "immeasurable speed" nonsense has been dropped, we can move on to debunking "infinite speed".

In what way? If I'm interpreting it wrong, then what's the correct interpretation?

The "seals" or whatever Reisen did with those doors don't have to be immediately visible for them to not have been closed in a "normal" manner, but again, we don't get the mechanics of this "sealing", so we can't really say one way or the other on that one.

Ah yes, because 'Reisen used a magic door sealing ability that has never been shown or mentioned anywhere else with infinite range despite having planetary range at best' is so much more reasonable than 'she closed all the doors really fast'.

And when the culprit does get found out, and things get hot, and shit starts to get serious? Why no "infinite speed" then? Why are the Touhou characters not zippin' and zoppin' through dimensions and shit?

As for evidence, you have a vague "feat" of unknown mechanics and an extreme, "no limits fallacy"-tier extrapolation from a description of a character's ability.

Not enough, I must say.

Uh, because they would have nowhere left to travel to? They found their target, why would they need to go anywhere else? And infinite speed doesn't require you to travel dimensions or whatever, I have no idea where you're getting that from.

The mechanics have been explained to the best of my ability. If you genuinely believe that Reisen has access to one very unique ability with universal range that applies only to that specific ability, then I can't say anything to convince you. And Kaguya having infinite speed is far from NLF, given the way we treat most touhou feats already. Extrapolating where there is little evidence is sort of a necessity for this verse.

"Are you getting feats from these music lyrics or something?"

You didn't address that part of my post, sir.

It's ma'am, actually.

And no, I'm not getting feats from lyrics because touhou songs don't have lyrics (except for Kids's Festival ~ Innocent Treasures, but I doubt we'll ever get to see them). I'm using the title of a song to point out how one of the statements supposedly 'debunking' Kaguya's speed in contradictory.

That little spat doesn't concern you, and it's pretty much finished anyway.

If you're disrespecting other users for no reason, then it absolutely is my concern. Stop looking down on others.

 

[Mobi2]

Not much to dispute there, in all honesty. If I have any issue, it's just that statement on the Netherworld's size is fairly vague ("It's said") and that there's a massive amount of different Hells that this statement, which predates the elaboration on Hell's sheer size, could refer to, you know?

Suika didn't destroy Heaven, she shattered a part of a different structure referred to similarly. It's not a High 3-A feat or an Infinite speed feat.

It should just refer to the current hell instead of former hell due to Yuyuko working under Eiki Shiki who works in hell and Hecatia is aware of Eiki Shiki

 

[Promestein]

That's true, yes.

Stop taking potshots, Malomtek. Everyone just chillout, okay?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Soooo Infinite speed might be debunked, and so is High 1-C, but is the 2-C buffs at least unanimous? I read through them and honestly I think they make sense.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Alright then, do we have anything else to talk about, there's pretty much nothing else here to talk about right? We can close the thread IMO.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Soooo Infinite speed might be debunked, and so is High 1-C, but is the 2-C buffs at least unanimous? I read through them and honestly I think they make sense.

I'm gonna ask some person about H1-C, I think it's not truly gone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I think we're just about done. Shame about the infinite speed debunk, but given how huge Touhou is it's not impossible in the future.

By the way, should we remove the heaven destroying feat from Suika's profile since it's no longer valid?

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, we should.

Happy to help. Thanks for cooperating.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Maybe reword it instead. Say “Suika destroyed a part of Tengai”, which Prom said is different from Tenkai.