Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Malomtek]

1. That's a very specific use of Causality Manip that we've never seen Sagume use before; we would need evidence that this was the method used before debunking the feat entirely.

That's not a very specific use of Causality Manipulation, it's literally

Cause: I want it

Effect: An occult ball now exists

You seem to have a very limited conception of the potency of Causality Manipulation. Not that Sagume's is that good, but still.

2. I'm not arguing against the alternative translation; it doesn't matter if its pouring out energy infinitely or endlessly, since somewhere infinite energy has to be involved, otherwise it'd just run out. Could be from Sagume or some other unknown source, but regardless of which interpretation you use, infinite energy needs to be a part of the equation.

Or it could just be replenishing itself endlessly through some magical means, although even otherwise I prefer the bolded interpretation.

You're technically right, but if all dreams are connected on a fundamental level, then changing the fundamental nature of one would logically extend to all of them due to their inherent connection. So she's still technically 'controlling' a single dream, but that level of control extends to every other dream out there at the same time.

Why are you assuming that Doremy can control dreams on a fundamental level? You're making it sound like she can control the very concept of dreams, which is a rather extreme claim that requires extremely good evidence.

Also, weren't you the one who argued that dreams as a collective are equal to reality? If that's the case, then controlling all of them could certainly get up to 2-C, which Doremy could likely do due to the whole "connected at the deepest levels" thing.

Again, why are you assuming that Doremy can control dreams on a fundamental level?

The Dream World itself is only Low 2-C.

And please tell me where you're getting 'random baku' from when she's literally the ruler of the Dream World. Are all baku rulers of the Dream World now? Can't imagine what kind of ****** up political system they have if that's the case.

Because, considering ZUN's statements on the matter, her fancy little title means nothing. She's literally just a random baku in "real" terms.

Gonna need evidence beyond "a staff member agreed with me".

Well, Prom's word is what matters most right now, and her reasoning seems quite good to me.

I don't know how to continue to argue this point when Doremy's profile makes it very clear she can manipulate all dreams. Maybe not all at once, depending on how you interpret the statement about dreams being connected, but assuming there are some dreams she can't control is something you would really need proof to back up.

I don't need "proof" to back up the negation of your NLF concerning Doremy's dream manipulation. A generic "she can manipulate dreams" cannot be extrapolated into "she can manipulate all dreams regardless of size". Such "reasoning" is comparable to "this profile says that this guy can manipulate illusions, therefore he can blanket the entire universe in illusions".

And yes, it's still an NLF even if you slap a "Low 2-C" or "2-C" tier to it (especially given the natures of those tiers in question). If you had thought that the "proper" tier for the Dream World was 1-A or so, you would still be trying to scale Doremy to all of it using the same logic you're using here.

Few other points to note. If all dreams are just collectively equivalent to reality, as you've claimed in the past, then a single dream would still be infinite.

No. Any single dream could have any finite size, but very explicit proof needs to be given for an "infinitely" big dream.

Reality as a whole is infinite (thanks to Hell and Higan), there are a finite number of dreams due to there being a finite number of people in the world, and an infinite number divided by a finite number is, well, infinite. A smaller degree of infinity, sure, but still infinite.

Or maybe the dream world is just far bigger than the sum of its parts.

Hell as a "general" whole isn't "infinite" anyway. Only Avici is. And it's treated as special and completely distinct from any other Hell. Hell in general doesn't scale to Avici.

Nothing scales to Higan anyway, so its size doesn't matter.

An infinite world (spacetime continuum) contains an infinite number of people. This is simple logic. So infinity divided by infinity equals...one?

Wouldn't a "finite" number of dreams heavily contradict the Dream World being anything higher than 3-A at most anyway? Since most dreams are not at all confirmed to be infinite.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay look. I'm burnt out, tired, it's 12 am, I'm forcing myself to stay up for Gouyoku Ibun news, and I do not have the energy to reply to this right now.

I could probably keep going after I rest for a while, but to what end? The debates about the Dream World have been going in ******* circles. I might still try to respond in the morning, but for the time being I would really like to just wait for more staff input because we have Prom saying she's not even ******* touching this topic (can't blame her for that lmao) and the 2 other staff members that have previously given input have just kinda disappeared from the thread.

I do not see the value in continuing a 1-on-1 debate forever since evidently neither me nor Malomtek are budging on these issues. I'll come back when we have new topics to discuss or new staff input that should be addressed. I suggest Malomtek do the same (I would certainly hope you aren't more stubborn on this than me).

 

[Malomtek]

I'll come back when we have new topics to discuss or new staff input that should be addressed. I suggest Malomtek do the same (I would certainly hope you aren't more stubborn on this than me).

I'd prefer that you not respond to that last post of mine, but fair enough.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not? I'm not planning to at least, unless a staff member uses one of your points.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Think ive told you before but you prolly missed. Users cant tag staff from what i know. It just wont notify them. Probably because itd annoy them...


She... literally is the ruler of the dream world though. If anything her doing all those things with dreams (she uses them in attacks so yes she scales. At least to the size of individual dreams, and also devours them) arguably contradicts her being "weak".

Anyway ill get going for today. (Please for the love of god try reach some kind of conclusion here guys!)

Couldn't that just mean Doremy is a Glass Cannon (physically weak) with high AP&less durability, just like "Haruka Kaminogi" case?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not really consistent with the fact that Touhou has a UES, which would scale her creation feats to durability.

Also I know I said I'd take a break but I'm still up because there's 17.5 news and I am ******* thriving.

 

[RethPo]

Not really consistent with the fact that Touhou has a UES, which would scale her creation feats to durability.

Also I know I said I'd take a break but I'm still up because there's 17.5 news and I am ******* thriving.

Im not responding yet but stop torturing yerself and save it for tomorrow morning fam! Go tf to sleep

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

NO YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THEY FINALLY MADE FLANDRE PLAYABLE

OKINA IS HERE TOO FOR SOME REASON

but yeah I'll go to bed once new stuff stops trickling in

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think should be done here @Promestein ?

 

[RethPo]

Ill look into whatevers happened later if i care to but, ive asked around on vs battles discord and compressing a universe into an attack and using multiple of those attacks is still only low 2-C even by wiki standards. Each attack individually would only be a single universe, and doing several would be several low 2-C attacks as a result. Its like trying to get 9-B from firing thousands of street level bullets at someone. Or giving other characters who use multiple low 2-C attacks at once 2-C from it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Huh, strange. We still have the implication she can create/destroy/manipulate multiple dreams at a time (not just in combat but in general) but its too vague to use for a flat 2-C rating IMO. So I guess the ideal option would be low 2-C, possibly 2-C.

 

[Malomtek]

Huh, strange. We still have the implication she can create/destroy/manipulate multiple dreams at a time (not just in combat but in general) but its too vague to use for a flat 2-C rating IMO. So I guess the ideal option would be low 2-C, possibly 2-C.

No, the ideal option is 4-A to 3-B, maybe High 3-A if we're feeling generous. Low 2-C and above is pure wank.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I didn't say ideal for you. Based on the opinions of everyone who's participated in the thread, I think low 2-C/2-C is more agreed upon but I'm not 100% sure, which is why I want a vote (even if it won't be the determining factor). As of right now I can at least say for certain that Guardian_Doge and I think 2-C should stay, while you and RethPo are pushing for downgrades. I don't wanna assume anyone else's opinion right now.

 

[Pixy]

No, the ideal option is 4-A to 3-B, maybe High 3-A if we're feeling generous. Low 2-C and above is pure wank.

That a Negative for you tier 4 is Star Level and Tier 3 is Galaxy - Universe Level
And Tier 2 is Universe ( 3d ) + Time ( 4d )

that why She will remain as Tier 2 No matter what if you doubt check above comment those will explain for you. and don't be lazy they're in this page so check it by yourself

 

[RethPo]

I think me and mal are on different pages with our arguments so im just gonna focus on what mokou sent to me

This wiki doesn't solely measure what threat level a character is considered to be in-universe, because very rarely do writers actually intend to give their characters a certain level of power. Nobody at SEGA is writing Sonic with the intent to make him a universe buster, Miyamoto isn't pulling all-nighters trying to calc how fast or strong Mario is, and ZUN certainly isn't giving us direct statements about power levels because there's more to a series than VS debating. Yes, this can lead to inconsistencies, but we need to give actual feats precedent over what is intended by the creator, otherwise this hobby would be 99% bothering writers over what power levels they see their characters having.

Yeah, anti feats happen and authors dont give a damn about scaling i get that... but when a verses entire narrative barely functions or makes any sense with characters being infinite universe busters (or even lower cases like tier 7s being constantly threatened and hurt by guns) and theyre not even treat as anything close to that tier beyond being obvious superhumans, then yeah there is room to question.

It's not a no limits fallacy; we know there are dream versions of these realms (via various scans stating that dreams equal reality), and we know Doremy can control all dreams (via her position as Ruler of the Dream World). It's an extremely simple line of logic to follow. Character can create/destroy/control vague thing --> vague thing is low 2-C --> character is low 2-C.

No. Ive already told you this and youve seemingly just glossed over it, this is a blatant misinterpretation of whats being said.
Dreams equate to reality means that your dreams simply exist. Thats the context of all the scans. It does not in any way shape or form mean that all of reality and every otherworld in existence straight up exists in the dream world... in fact the context is talking about dreams individually as well. Unless youre trying to argue that each dream contains all of existence which is nonsense on its own.

If it will make things easier. I wont object to "infinite other worlds such as avici, higan and makai should be capable of existing in the dream world as dreams" for a possibly high 3-A to low 2-C rating i dont mind... But given how its literally based on "probably exists there" 4-A to 3-B would still be a low end...

In other words they could be listed as "at least 4-A to 3-B, possibly high 3-A to low 2-C".

Also... wheres the proof of doremy manipulating multiple low 2-C sized at once? The closest she has is danmaku attacks. If youre seriously pushing to get a 2-C upgrade accepted with the justifications of "the dreams she manipulates at once could be universe in sized" then obviously this threads gonna go in a circle. It would end up being downgraded. The only reason 2-C got sort of accepted was because the netherworld and lotbd were considered infinite and were created at once which just isnt even the case anymore.

Just because a structure was created via a loop doesn't mean the structure by itself is a loop. Kaguya's corridor by itself clearly isn't a non-euclidean loop like the outer edges of Gensokyo are as the air around the characters was clearly changing as they moved, showing that they were going higher into the air, which wouldn't be possible if they were flying through an endless loop. Also, if you want to claim the corridor itself loops a la Gensokyo, you need proof, sorry to say.

Uhhhh, the air around them changing as they went higher? Are you talking about the corridor? Might look at that scene again if thats what you mean.

 

[Mobi2]

I think me and mal are on different pages with our arguments so im just gonna focus on what mokou sent to me


Yeah, anti feats happen and authors dont give a damn about scaling i get that... but when a verses entire narrative barely functions or makes any sense with characters being infinite universe busters (or even lower cases like tier 7s being constantly threatened and hurt by guns) and theyre not even treat as anything close to that tier beyond being obvious superhumans, then yeah there is room to question.

No. Ive already told you this and youve seemingly just glossed over it, this is a blatant misinterpretation of whats being said.
Dreams equate to reality means that your dreams simply exist. Thats the context of all the scans. It does not in any way shape or form mean that all of reality and every otherworld in existence straight up exists in the dream world... in fact the context is talking about dreams individually as well. Unless youre trying to argue that each dream contains all of existence which is nonsense on its own.

If it will make things easier. I wont object to "infinite other worlds such as avici, higan and makai should be capable of existing in the dream world as dreams" for a possibly high 3-A to low 2-C rating i dont mind... But given how its literally based on "probably exists there" 4-A to 3-B would still be a low end...

In other words they could be listed as "at least 4-A to 3-B, possibly high 3-A to low 2-C".

Also... wheres the proof of doremy manipulating multiple low 2-C sized at once? The closest she has is danmaku attacks. If youre seriously pushing to get a 2-C upgrade accepted with the justifications of "the dreams she manipulates at once could be universe in sized" then im sorry but you have yourself to blame for the thread going in a circle. It would end up being downgraded. The only reason 2-C got sort of accepted was because the netherworld and lotbd were considered infinite and were created at once which just isnt even the case anymore.

Uhhhh, the air around them changing as they went higher? Are you talking about the corridor? Might look at that scene again if thats what you mean.

I think what she was trying to say about the looping part is that the infinite corridor doesn't function like Gensokyo's barrier where in WaHH (chapter 25) Marisa keeps on being looped over and over again as she tries to go past it because of its non euclidean nature. And this leads to no one mentioning that the corridor was looping in on itself when we had the barrier being example of where characters pointed it out. Even in WaHH when Miko was talking about the corridor she doesn't mention it was looping just that it was endless.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

No. Ive already told you this and youve seemingly just glossed over it, this is a blatant misinterpretation of whats being said.

With all due respect, no. And no. Your interpretation completely disregarded the first 2-C scans I had sent, not to mention, you've actually been the one to gloss over the current dream world argument with me and malomtek.

He said, dreams collectively make up another reality, I provided an explanation as to how even with that PoV, the Dream world is in fact the opposite side to reality in the multiverse, given how we also provided evidence that dreams are connected with realms like the netherworld, former hell yada yada existing, logically New Hell should be a location that's also present.

The main point here:
- All locations can be reached in the dream world as they are still individually realities, (refer to how Malom said dreams were debatably "fake" hence would hold no reality value (i.e Length, width, height, etc) because in order for things to make up a reality, must also hold some sort of value that they are real.

- Since all dreams are connected and correspond to their "real life" location, destroying again for example a dream of gensokyo would be all of gensokyo.

-Because of the evidence presented, this is essentially an unneeded comment to make:

Dreams equate to reality means that your dreams simply exist. Thats the context of all the scans. It does not in any way shape or form mean that all of reality and every otherworld in existence straight up exists in the dream world...

Why? Because it doesn't contradict the 2-C scaling, after all we have given direct showings and backgrounds in Violet detector what realms exist, which are Otherworlds by the way. Sooooooooo.

However, I must re-iterate, I'm willing to drop the 2-C for another thread, this is taking too long and clearly Prom isn't exactly able to come to a conclusion because of this. But bare minimum, the tiers should be reverted to High 3-A/ low 2-C.

 

[Mobi2]

@RethPo
Here's the scene about the corridor

This one is about the barrier looping

Note how both Reimu and Marisa never mention anything about any part of Eientei or the corridor looping, but they both have been there before. There's not even a comparison being drawn to the corridor or the barrier.

 

[Mobi2]

I could also go into the argument to where Kasen says that it shouldn't be possible and that Reimu said that the barrier only loops because it affects "senses" and that pretty much only living creatures and tools associated with them are affected by these loops. There's nothing to imply that Kaguya's corridor is a thing of "sense" as well, so the loop interpretation just falls flat on itself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I agree with Doge; simply reverting the profiles to universal would be best for the time being. Given how much we've debated 2-C Doremy, it would be more convenient to recompile all the relevant information in a separate thread rather than just force people to go digging through numerous pages of circular debates.

Thank you Mobi2 for the scans regarding Kaguya's corridor.

Finally, can we please not do the anti-feat argument? I can very easily find 'anti-feats' for nearly every single universal character on the wiki, because at a certain point that's just sort of the nature of fiction. Reimu hurting her foot while kicking a rocket ship is much easier to write into a story than "Reimu kicks a rocket ship and it is instantly atomized because she's a universe buster". If we gave every single so called anti-feat equal weight against multiple cosmic level feats, then well...


Tell me when you're ready to discuss 10-B Goku and then I'll give your arguments a little more weight.

 

[Mobi2]

Also creating a space-time loop isn't possible in Touhou because of the memory layer. this layer deals with history/time to where you can't recreate the past (which temporal loops would do) because it can only be added onto.

 

[Malomtek]

Also creating a space-time loop isn't possible in Touhou because of the memory layer. this layer deals with history/time to where you can't recreate the past (which temporal loops would do) because it can only be added onto.

What do memories have to do with very physical spacetime loops? The scanned quote was speaking of "loops" in reference to the "repetition of history" and not physical spacetime loops anyway, so it's completely irrelevant to the current discussion at hand.

 

[Mobi2]

What do memories have to do with very physical spacetime loops? The scanned quote was speaking of "loops" in reference to the "repetition of history" and not physical spacetime loops anyway, so it's completely irrelevant to the current discussion at hand.

Because the history they were talking about includes the past. The past is part of time, and you haven't even addressed the other points I've made. This in tadem with Kasen not believing that places can't be looped physically (Reimu confirms this through "sense") as well makes the space-time looping theory crash in on itself.

 

[Mobi2]

Even then they never compared the non-euclidean spatial manipulation looping to the infinite corridor despite them being in the corridor in IN, and Miko just says it endless not that it loops.

 

[Mobi2]

This is also a thing even with sakuya izayoi who physically alters the flow of time and she can't change the past or cause anything like time loops

時間を操る能力を持っている。		She has the ability to manipulate time.
人間が持っている能力にしては最大級の強力な能力であり、修行で身に付くような代物ではない。		It is among the strongest of abilities for a human to possess, and is not something that can be learned through training.
時間を操るとは、時間を止めて自分だけ移動したり、時間の流れを遅くして超高速で動いたり、時間の流れを速めて、林檎ジュースを林檎酒にしたりする能力である。		Manipulating time allows one to stop the flow of time and let only oneself move, to slow the flow of time and let oneself move at incredible speeds, or increase the flow of time and change apple juice to apple cider.
ただ、起きてしまった事を無かった事にするには、特殊な場合を除いて難しい。		However, it is generally rather difficult to revert things that have already happened.
物が壊れたり燃えてしまったり、食べてしまった等は時間を戻しても元には戻らない。		Things that have been destroyed, burnt down, eaten, etc. can not be returned to normal even if time is reversed.
時間が戻るのは移動していた物が元の位置に戻ったりする程度である。		Reversing time only has an effect to the extent that things that have been moved return to their original position.
事実上、時間を戻す事は出来ないと言って良いだろう。		Effectively, you can say there is no reversing time.
また、この能力は空間を弄る事も同様に可能である。		In addition, her ability can be used to manipulate space, as well.
時間を遅くする事は空間を小さくする事と同じであり、速める事は空間を広める事と同じである。		Slowing down time also means to contract space, and hastening means to expand it.
彼女はその超絶な能力を十分に生かし、掃除や洗濯、炊事にと役立てているのである。		She uses this marvelous ability to perform a great many tasks such as cleaning, laundry and cooking.
この能力とは別に、ナイフ投げと手品が得意である。		Besides that ability, she is skilled in knife throwing and conjuration.
ナイフ投げは、二十間離れた場所に居る頭上に林檎を乗せた妖精メイドの、額に当てる事が出来るという。		It's said that with one knife throw from a distance of 20 ken far above her, she could hit a fairy maid with an apple on her head right between the eyes.
手品は、何も持っていない筈の手に様々な物を出現させる物である（＊２）。		With her tricks, she makes things appear in her hand which should have held nothing (*2).

Then you have Kaguya who made the corridor, and has time manipulation.

どちらの能力にしても時間を操る能力であり、普通の人間が持つ能力としては強力過ぎる。		As both of these abilities are abilities to manipulate time, they far surpass what normal humans are capable of.

So I don't why she'd be able to physically link it

 

[Mobi2]

If anything the infinite corridor is most likely a byproduct of instantaneous manipulation where time is appearing to be continuous and made of instants, and all she's doing is bridging these instants infinitely to have the corridor be endless.

月の民に話があって やってきたんだが なるほど……永遠に続く廊下か これは微少な時空の隙間を 無限に繋げる力だな 月の民の力だろうな

Well, I'm here to speak with the People of the Moon. Ah, I see... a corridor that continues endlessly? Made with a power that infinitely links miniscule gaps in space-time together. The power of the Moon's residents, to be sure.

 

[Mobi2]

That'll be all from me tonight I have to focus on my restaurant, and other things such as university (essays galore) for the rest of the night. If anyone has any questions and the thread happens to be too overcrowded again feel free to post something on my message wall or PM me I'd be happy to clear up anything issues you might have as soon as I can.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you for providing all these scans, it is highly appreciated.

 

[RethPo]

Youre seriously expecting me to read all this gibberish... and what 2-C scans for doremy? You only ever showed stuff calling dreams reality. Doesnt keine have the ability to straight up change and rewrite history?


Im fine with reverting the profiles to high 3-A possibly low 2-C though i migght have to change rejected explanations like the netherworld and senkai stuff

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Keine altering history isn't the same as looping it; the entire point of all those scans was to prove a temporal loop just isn't possible in Touhou. Nothing about Keine's ability implies the existence of such loops, let alone imply she can create them.

I'm not touching Dream World scaling again; unless there's a very good reason to reason to reignite this argument, it should be saved for another thread.

We would need to figure out what feats are being kept, as well as whether or not we're still using the infinite Netherworld stuff. We could maybe put the latter to a vote? I can't remember if there was ever a general consensus on whether or not it's valid. If we ever did, or it was rejected by a staff member, I'll stop bringing it up.

 

[RethPo]

I dont think looping space means the same with time in the exact same way, theyre still different things. But i cant be bothered to debate it anymore tbh.

Well. Any feat that was based on the netherworld scaling should be removed, suikas profile should just mention the heavens canopy, tenshis feat can still be mentioned on her profile. As well as senkai being infinite. I can maake the edits when i get home if all the gods and high tiers profiles could be listed.

Oh and... prom kinda gave clear disagreement with the statement scaling hell with it being vague and uncertain so yeah.

Could also add space and time being connected on mikos profile and why she scales.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They're different things, but ZUN has made it very clear that you cannot affect one without affecting the other. Any attempt to loop space would logically be trying to loop time by extension, which is impossible. Actually, wouldn't Kaguya's corridor creation feat be valid again now that the argument that she was just looping pre-existing space has been debunked?

Guess I can't argue much if infinite Netherworld has been rejected. I still think it's bullshit, but whatever.

I would still like to fully determine which feats we are and aren't keeping on the profiles before making any changes. I do agree with the changes you've listed here, however. I'll list every high tier in the verse when I get up tomorrow, assuming nobody beats me to it first.

Anyways now that the 17.5 news cycle is dead I have no good reason to be up this late lmao

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Mobi2]

Youre seriously expecting me to read all this gibberish... and what 2-C scans for doremy? You only ever showed stuff calling dreams reality. Doesnt keine have the ability to straight up change and rewrite history?


Im fine with reverting the profiles to high 3-A possibly low 2-C though i migght have to change rejected explanations like the netherworld and senkai stuff

What about it is gibberish? I was trying to explain FYM's argument to you. Also Keine can't change history she can only eat and create history.

 

[Mobi2]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

I think everyone is saving the dream world stuff for a future thread and now we're going back to the old tiers (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong) so they're just trying to figure out which feats/scaling chains to use.

 

[Pixy]

I think everyone is saving the dream world stuff for a future thread and now we're going back to the old tiers (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong) so they're just trying to figure out which feats/scaling chains to use.

First is correct but second is wrong a bit

Me and Mokou including you are trying to keep doremy as 2-C

While Mal and Rethpo try to downgrade Doremy below tier 2, They want doremy as Tier 4 or Tier 3 they said

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, I'm pretty sure I, Mobi2, and Guardian_Doge are fine with reverting tiers back to what they were. If we're saving Dream World stuff for a later thread, it doesn't make sense to keep 2-C for the time being. I would much rather have all the arguments in favor of 2-C Doremy compiled into a single CRT rather than spread out across multiple pages and hundreds of posts, making it impossible to evaluate.

I mean, I obviously would like to keep 2-C, I just think it's for the best to save it for later.

 

[Pixy]

No, I'm pretty sure I, Mobi2, and Guardian_Doge are fine with reverting tiers back to what they were. If we're saving Dream World stuff for a later thread, it doesn't make sense to keep 2-C for the time being. I would much rather have all the arguments in favor of 2-C Doremy compiled into a single CRT rather than spread out across multiple pages and hundreds of posts, making it impossible to evaluate.

I mean, I obviously would like to keep 2-C, I just think it's for the best to save it for later.

OK

 

[RethPo]

Im fine with going back to 2-C for now anyway. Any issues with feats could be brought up later... i can do the edits later once ive finished eating this whole chicken

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So, what's left to be done here is determine which universal feats we're keeping, and determine how fast Kaguya is.

The math on the latter should be simple, while it seems like we'll at least have Miko's corridor feat for the former.