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To make a list of the profiles that have a tier 2 rating on them ^_^
Ill have to do it tommorrow though. Gotta go work in the morning and spent the night on this ramen shiz!
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Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project
- Thread starter OnsokunoSonic
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Ill have to do it tommorrow though. Gotta go work in the morning and spent the night on this ramen shiz!
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Do you want to PM me or use discord so we can work on the scaling chain?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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So, as far as I can tell, we still need a calc for Kaguya's planck time movement scaling to baseline MFTL+ reaction speed, as well as an evaluation on who scales to it. It also seems like a decent majority of the active participants in this thread have agreed to revert the profiles back to H3-A/L2-C for the time being. We still need to determine which feats are being kept, as well as rework scaling chains to accommodate for the debunked universal feats.
We also need an evaluation regarding Kaguya's corridor and the feats pertaining to it, as new evidence has been presented showing that the corridor could not have been looped, as has been claimed in the past. This would potentially allow Reisen's infinite speed feat and Kaguya's L2-C corridor creation to remain, as the idea that the corridor was looped was the basis of their rejection by Promestein, so re-evaluating those feats would likely be necessary as well.
The potential downgrade for Alice and Patchouli mentioned by RethPo has been moved to a separate thread.
Oh, and I'm not gonna ask Prom to evaluate Sagume's occult ball feat or Dream World feats. IIRC she has previously stated she does not want to evaluate those, and the Dream World stuff is being saved for a separate thread anyways.
If anyone thinks I missed something, please say so.
We also need an evaluation regarding Kaguya's corridor and the feats pertaining to it, as new evidence has been presented showing that the corridor could not have been looped, as has been claimed in the past. This would potentially allow Reisen's infinite speed feat and Kaguya's L2-C corridor creation to remain, as the idea that the corridor was looped was the basis of their rejection by Promestein, so re-evaluating those feats would likely be necessary as well.
The potential downgrade for Alice and Patchouli mentioned by RethPo has been moved to a separate thread.
Oh, and I'm not gonna ask Prom to evaluate Sagume's occult ball feat or Dream World feats. IIRC she has previously stated she does not want to evaluate those, and the Dream World stuff is being saved for a separate thread anyways.
If anyone thinks I missed something, please say so.
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I think you got just about everything that I can remember from reading the thread.
Though I am admittedly curious if 17.5 will affect any of the scaling or add more characters to scale from high tiers and suchand when is Cirno becoming Planet level?
Though I am admittedly curious if 17.5 will affect any of the scaling or add more characters to scale from high tiers and such
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Is there something special that's supposed to happen in 2hu 17.5 that I don't know about?
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I haven't read the story yet since it only just released physically, but they've brought back some characters that haven't appeared in a long time, so depending how the story and fights go, maybe it would effect a scaling chain? I'm just curious to see, if anything.
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What is the name of Touhou 17.5 again?
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Gouyoku Ibun
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Gouyoku Ibun, no english name (like Hisoutensoku).
From the looks of things, I don't think we're gonna have any earth-shattering revelations about the cosmology, but I'm waiting for the Steam release and for translations to become more widely available before doing a CRT on it.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know Kanako's route was translated already.
Does this imply the Sanzu River is infinite even without Komachi's spatial manipulation?
Does this imply the Sanzu River is infinite even without Komachi's spatial manipulation?
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Probably since Komachi only controls space. It'd be weird for the water to expand like that if she's stretching the ground, etc.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Okay. Prove it. "It has infinite water because of special water-generating magic" is a pretty ******* loaded statement to make without proof.
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I'm not the brightest person, but wouldn't infinite depth still mean it's a location taking up infinite space/time according to the Verse's own rules?
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| Kutaka Niwatari ENTERS | ||
|---|---|---|
| Kanako | ……凄い 灼熱地獄が冷劫化している どうやってこれだけの水量を？ 幻想郷が保有している水量を 超えている気もするが…… | ...Amazing. The Hell of Blazing Fires is completely cooled-off. How could they have gotten this much water? I get the sense that this is more water than Gensokyo even holds... |
| Kutaka | これはまた大きな仕事になりそうね これじゃあ、三途の河ならぬ三途の滝ね | Seems like we have another big job on our hands... It's more of a Sanzu Waterfall than a Sanzu River at this point. |
| Kanako | 誰だ？ | And you are? |
| Kutaka | 私は庭に渡わたり久く侘た歌か 異界との住来を見張っています 貴方は？ | My name is Kutaka Niwatari. I oversee passage to and from Otherworlds. What's your name? |
| Kanako | ニワタリ神でしたか これはこれは…… 失礼、私は八坂神奈子 山の神です | You're Niwatarijin? Goodness me... My apologies. I'm Kanako Yasaka, a mountain god. |
| Kutaka | 三途の河底に穴を開けたのは 何故ですか？ | May I ask why you opened a hole in the Sanzu's riverbed? |
| Kanako | ほほう、三途の河底…… なる程、三途の河なら無限の水量がある | Oho, the Sanzu's riverbed... I see. The Sanzu River does have an infinite water supply. |
| Kutaka | これを利用して、地獄へと 行こうというのですか？ | Are you trying to take advantage of this in order to make your way to Hell? |
| Kanako | これをやったのは 私ではないけど…… そんなことは貴方には 関係無いわね 私はこれを利用して地の底へと 向かおうとしているんだから | Well, I'm not the one who did this... But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. I am taking advantage of it to make my way underground, after all. |
In the beginning, Kanako was also talking about the leak from the Sanzu containing more water than Gensokyo holds.
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But it doesn't mean it has infinite width, which is the main reason this river is being brought up again (think: speed wanking).
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Scan? Proof?
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How can something with a visible/accessible/visibly accessible "riverbed" have infinite extent in any direction in space? This only gives credence to the theory of the Sanzu generating its own water through magical means.
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My question was, does it support more infinite space/time sizes no matter how you slice it. Thank you for answering said question.
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The length you know it doesn't have to be the depths or the width right? We never even saw the full length of the river.
Guardian_Doge
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Infinite length is a different conception then depth, which by the way has been noted as a factor of the river.
The river can have infinite width. But by default has infinite length. Though I'm not in support of the above scan (infinite depth) with all due respect.
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At this point you're asking why fictional characters and fictional settings aren't 1000% grounded in reality, which seems like you're arguing semantics at this point.
Anyway, by your shakey logic, the river can hold an infinitely replenishing amount of water, which is still an infinite amount it's being filled with, thus infinite space. Unless you want to stretch your argument further and say that the magical never-before-mentioned water replenishing magic knows exactly when a single drop of water evaporates and replaces it.
Or we can both drop our shakey arguments because the statements are taking way too many random factors into account, and we can just accept that the river has an infinite size statement in a newly released piece of official media.
Anyway, by your shakey logic, the river can hold an infinitely replenishing amount of water, which is still an infinite amount it's being filled with, thus infinite space. Unless you want to stretch your argument further and say that the magical never-before-mentioned water replenishing magic knows exactly when a single drop of water evaporates and replaces it.
Or we can both drop our shakey arguments because the statements are taking way too many random factors into account, and we can just accept that the river has an infinite size statement in a newly released piece of official media.
Guardian_Doge
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I agree with this, cherry-picking individual elements of a statement is heavily flawed, questioning some factors is fine, but you really go the extra mile on this malomtek.
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It doesn't have a "full length", because it's length/width (which is never established to be intrinsically "infinite", mind you) is constantly being manipulated by Komachi.
Didn't @Promestein already go through this? Why are we going through this again?
...No. That's just a finite amount of water at any given time, but generated over an "infinite" period.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Because we have new statements to work with. That's how VS debating works.
For the thousandth time this thread...
Scans? Proof?
You seem pretty confident in your "unseen infinitely replenishing water source" theory, so lets see that evidence baby!
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https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Sanzu_River
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Ran
These are the only sources on the Sanzu river. Wanna show me any details of the water being able to resupply itself or that there is a generator there?
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Ran
| Kanako | ……凄い 灼熱地獄が冷劫化している どうやってこれだけの水量を？ 幻想郷が保有している水量を 超えている気もするが…… | ...Amazing. The Hell of Blazing Fires is completely cooled-off. How could they have gotten this much water? I get the sense that this is more water than Gensokyo even holds... |
|---|---|---|
| Kutaka | これはまた大きな仕事になりそうね これじゃあ、三途の河ならぬ三途の滝ね | Seems like we have another big job on our hands... It's more of a Sanzu Waterfall than a Sanzu River at this point. |
| Kanako | 誰だ？ | And you are? |
| Kutaka | 私は庭に渡わたり久く侘た歌か 異界との住来を見張っています 貴方は？ | My name is Kutaka Niwatari. I oversee passage to and from Otherworlds. What's your name? |
| Kanako | ニワタリ神でしたか これはこれは…… 失礼、私は八坂神奈子 山の神です | You're Niwatarijin? Goodness me... My apologies. I'm Kanako Yasaka, a mountain god. |
| Kutaka | 三途の河底に穴を開けたのは 何故ですか？ | May I ask why you opened a hole in the Sanzu's riverbed? |
| Kanako | ほほう、三途の河底…… なる程、三途の河なら無限の水量がある | Oho, the Sanzu's riverbed... I see. The Sanzu River does have an infinite water supply. |
| Kutaka | これを利用して、地獄へと 行こうというのですか？ | Are you trying to take advantage of this in order to make your way to Hell? |
| Kanako | これをやったのは 私ではないけど…… そんなことは貴方には 関係無いわね 私はこれを利用して地の底へと 向かおうとしているんだから | Well, I'm not the one who did this... But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. I am taking advantage of it to make my way underground, after all. |
| BGM: ロストリバー | BGM: Lost River | |
|---|---|---|
| Urumi Ushizaki ENTERS | ||
| 古代魚の子連れ番人 牛崎 潤美 | Parental Guardian of Ancient Fish Urumi Ushizaki | |
| BGM: 石の赤子と水中の牛 | BGM: The Stone Baby and the Submerged Bovine | |
| Urumi Ushizaki DEFEATED | ||
| 三途の河 | Sanzu River | |
| Reimu | いつになったら向こう岸に着くのかな | It's taking me forever to reach the other side... |
| ??? | 三途の河こんなところに 生身の人間とは | I never thought I'd see a flesh and blood human in the Sanzu Rivera place like this. |
| ??? | 凶暴な魚に引きずり込まれたいのか？ | Are you looking to get dragged down by some savage fish? |
| Reimu | その角は……鬼？ | Those horns... Are you an oni? |
| Urumi | まあそんなようなもんだ 今なら安全に送り返してやっても 良いんだが…… | Well, yeah, somethin' like that. If you want to turn back now, I can send you home safely... |
| Reimu | 結構よ 魚なんか、その場で捌いてやるから | I'm fine, thanks. If it's just fish I'll have to deal with, I'll filet 'em no problem. |
| Urumi | そうか、なら丁度良い | That so? Fine by me, then. |
| Urumi | 遠慮無く 愛しの古代魚達の餌にしてやろう | I won't hold back when I turn you into food for my beloved ancient fish! |
| Urumi | 道に迷ったわけではないのね | Well, I guess you aren't just some lost traveler. |
| Reimu | 私の目的地は地獄なの その為に河を渡っているだけよ | For your information, I'm headed to Hell! Crossing the river is just one step along that path. |
| Urumi | 生きたまま地獄に行くとは 想像するだけで身震いがするよ | A living person going to Hell...? Just the thought of that makes me shudder. |
| Reimu | おや？ あんた、てっきり地獄の鬼かと思ったわ | Huh? Oh. I was sure you were a Hell oni. |
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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As an addendum to this, we need to evaluate possible infinite speed from Sanzu river crossing now that we have new statements regarding its size.
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No, you guys just found a new and exciting way to shore up an argument that was already debunked by staff several pages ago. It didn't work then, and it won't work now, because I'm putting a stop to it.
The "unseen infinitely replenishing water source" settled science is logically inferred by:
(1). The fundamental finiteness of the Sanzu river: an already infinite amount of water would start overflowing if its container was artificially contracted in some way, like with space/"distance" manipulation or something of that kind.
(2). The visible accessibility of its "riverbed": an already infinite amount of water in a space would be a sort of dimension all to itself, and it certainly wouldn't have any sort of "riverbed" or anything of the sort.
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Yes, science applies to a Buddhist-based concept that's based on the deeds of an individual soul very good.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Y'know, I was gonna make an actual response post but I think Mobi2 summed it up better than I ever could lmao
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I've tried very hard to remain in a neutral party and simply discuss the new info, but this is just too far.
There's a new infinite statement literally released this week, and you're talking like people are intentionally dragging up an old argument. New feats and statements allowing old arguments to be looked at under a new lens is one of the whole points of this hobby. You're asking people to ignore one of the factors of this hobby. And because why? Because you disagree with other people's opinion, and there "you" must put a stop to it.
You really need to start arguing with actual supporting material, and less condescending remarks and egotistical behavior.
At this point, the lengths you're reaching for without scans or proof are far longer than any infinitely sized rivers, whether they do or do not exist.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Not sure. Chen having below average intelligence is weird too considering she's basically a supercomputer in Cheating Detective Satori.
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You were entirely comfortable with using "science" when it came time to interpret "infinite water supply" as meaning the river was literally infinitely big. And if we're going to ignore science here entirely because it's convenient now, then I guess my own "magic water generation" theory stands even more solidly, as the "infinite water supply" doesn't have to come in any "scientific" manner.
Unless you have anything to actually refute what I said, then you must concede this point.
This "new infinite statement" doesn't add anything that hasn't already been argued before, and isn't explained away with the exact same reasons. So in real terms, it literally is just "intentionally dragging up an old argument".
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" This is why the actual length is different from the observed length. "
Wanna tell me how is this scientifically/geographically applicable?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'm sorry, but you're just a random user here with no authority, just like the rest of us. You do not get to just toss out evidence you don't like whenever you want. Hell, even staff members are under an obligation to hear out new claims and evidence (with a small number of exceptions). What kind of ego do you have that makes you think that every word that comes out of your mouth is so inherently true and justified that any evidence is rendered null be default? Like I'll openly admit I disagree with some of the things said by staff members in this thread, but at least they were willing to look at the ******* evidence presented.
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