Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Antvasima]

Everybody stop bickering, and stay on topic, please.

 

[Malomtek]

Making fun of someone's poor english is incredibly shitty. You're acting like a child.

I'm not "making fun" of his poor English, and your frequent attempts to mischaracterize my statements as such are disingenuous and slimy as ****.

This was not even in reference to the Netherworld. It was a statement regarding the fact that if a location appears in a dream, it would logically be the equivalent of the real world version because we know the same can be said for living beings. No mention of afterlives was made.

Since your entire argument up to this point was that the Dream World contained 1:1 replicas of the entire Touhou cosmology, I responded with that in mind. And I will respond further with statement that dreams don't even necessarily contain the replications of the "full" locations even if they had them to begin with. After all, if you're dreaming something about college, the dream itself doesn't need to extend that much farther than the college campus itself.

Your backpedaling is noted, however.

You do not get to take other people's evidence and then use them for yourself. That's not how this works. You need your own evidence to support your own claims. So go and find it rather than just interpret what other people post however you wish, and then claim you 'debunked' them. And again, basing your arguments solely off your interpretations is the definition of arguing from belief. It doesn't matter what is being 'interpreted' in that case. You need solid evidence.

If your own evidence speaks against you, I don't need anything in particular to "boost" my own side.

As was already stated by Prom, Pixy has not done anything banworthy. And if you truly believe everyone here hates you, then you can easily rectify this by not arguing from belief and posting your own scans. Given how you've treated several members of this thread, they would have very good reasons to dislike you.

I don't care how many people on this site hate me because I disagree with them on vs debates, I'm just letting the staff know so that they can keep it in mind whenever you people inevitably start making (false) accusations against me.

Because like I showed in the scan I had sent, former hell which was an afterlife, had a location.

Which scan? Can you please link it to me? Was that "location" just a dream-replication, or was the actual "physical" Former Hell inside the dream world?

These things are very different, after all.

And then we start getting into the Former Hell's size, which (I remind you) hasn't been established to be infinite.

Also, can someone give again the scan of [Doremy Sweet] being able to control all dreams?

Nobody has responded to this as of yet, which gives me the clue that such a scan doesn't exist.

 

[Malomtek]

Everybody stop bickering, and stay on topic, please.

I think the thread just needs to be closed until @Promestein is ready to respond. The people in it (other than me) are causing it to approach a certain level of toxicity, and I think everyone in this thread needs a breather so they can calm down.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Also, can someone give again the scan of she being able to control all dreams?

If this doesnt get answered with proper scans, I will need to agree with the Downgrades

 

[Malomtek]

If this doesnt get answered with proper scans, I will need to agree with the Downgrades

Such a thing wouldn't even make sense in powerscaling terms.

Does Doremy Sweet have power over these presumably 1:1 dream replicas of Shiki Eiki Yamaxanadu? Of the Dragon God? Of Eirin Yagokoro? Of the Lunarian twin princesses and Lord Tsukuyomi? Of Bishamonten? Of the Lord of Heaven (a sometimes mentioned, but never actually depicted god in Touhou)? Of all the Indian gods named or mentioned with Byakuren Hijiri's spellcards (Brahma, Indra, Hari, etc.)? Of Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha (both superior deities mentioned in Touhou)?

This kind of thing would just introduce absolutely broken scaling, which is yet another reason I cannot support this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

First of all, as I said, we should be waiting on Guardian_Doge in regards to certain aspects of the dream world. Have some ******* patience. Sometimes people have lives outside VS debating. I am not an expert on the Dream World so lets wait on someone who is, okay?

The size of Former Hell is irrelevant, as it was being used as proof of afterlives being able to be created in dreams, which was something you claimed was not possible. Regardless, here is the evidence of the Palace of the Earth Spirits (and by extension Former Hell) existing within dreams.

Why exactly are the mechanics of dreams in real life relevant to how dreams work in a fictional setting?

Yes, you do. Can everyone here agree that regardless of what Malomtek thinks of other people's evidence, he should be using his own scans as counterevidence rather than just insist his perception is correct?

And the scan will come when Guardian_Doge is able to post. Be patient.

We are not scaling Doremy to any of the dream replicas. Nowhere was that mentioned.

 

[Antvasima]

I think the thread just needs to be closed until @Promestein is ready to respond. The people in it (other than me) are causing it to approach a certain level of toxicity, and I think everyone in this thread needs a breather so they can calm down.

They were behaving well until you came here and started provoking them. Now can you and everybody else please calm down and stick to the topic please?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ant, could you please tell Malomtek to stop insisting the thread should be closed when he is not the one who makes that determination?

 

[Malomtek]

The size of Former Hell is irrelevant, as it was being used as proof of afterlives being able to be created in dreams, which was something you claimed was not possible. Regardless, here is the evidence of the Palace of the Earth Spirits (and by extension Former Hell) existing within dreams.

This is the exact same "Danmaku Dream" stuff I refuted several pages before. It's just a fancy video game stage name, and it means nothing.

Why exactly are the mechanics of dreams in real life relevant to how dreams work in a fictional setting?

Why would they not? Touhou is at least vaguely still based on real-life world mechanics, hence the references to modern science. If the way individual dreams work in Touhou is so fundamentally different from how they work in real life as to be incomparable, then any argument about them is meaningless, as you can essentially make up any claim about them and they would be equally true (or equally false, given).

We are not scaling Doremy to any of the dream replicas. Nowhere was that mentioned.

Then what is the point of all these Dream arguments again? If no known or relevant Touhou character actually scales to all of the Dream World, then it's all irrelevant jibber-jabber until maybe ZUN introduces someone who does scale to all of the Dream World.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What? It's not a name, its a physical location you can see with your eyes. What the **** are you talking about? The stage names in VD don't even mention what location the stage is taking place in. Where the **** are you getting this from?

I must've missed the part where dreams equaling reality or every human being having a dream version of themself that acts as a completely separate entity or the existence of a 'dream world' were ever true in real life. And just because Touhou makes occasional reference to scientific concepts doesn't mean literally every single part of the series has some kind of scientific basis. If that was the case, nobody would have magic, or flight, and 99% of the cast wouldn't even exist.

Because we're scaling Doremy to the real-world equivalents of those characters. Who, in case you didn't know, are separate beings from their real world counterparts.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just in case, here's stuff from VD that shows locations we can 100% confirm exist in the dream world.
Moon, Earth, numerous stars

Lunar Capital

Land of the Backdoor

Netherworld

Moriya Shrine

Palace of the Earth Spirits

Any questions?

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, could you please tell Malomtek to stop insisting the thread should be closed when he is not the one who makes that determination?

Well, I am not closing this thread, but you should all stop responding here with irrelevant posts that make it much harder for Promestein to evaluate what is going on.

 

[Mobi2]

If this doesnt get answered with proper scans, I will need to agree with the Downgrades

Not here to debate either side as of yet cause mid-terms fried my brain for a bit (40-page essays etc...)
Her omake in LoLK states this
全ての生き物が見る夢は実は根底部分で繋がっている。
　　夢の中で見知らぬ場所に行ったり、見知らぬ人と出会ったり、
　　見知らぬバグを見つけたりするのはその為だ。


彼女はその夢を消したり創ったり、入れ替えたり出来る。

which translates to

The dreams of all living creatures are, in fact, connected at the deepest levels.
This is why in dreams, you can visit places you've never seen, meet people you've never seen,
and find glitches you've never seen either.


She can erase, create and switch out those very dreams.

I'll grab the omake file when I get home.

 

[Mobi2]

https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Th15/omake.txt/en
Here's the Omake txt
just use ctrl+f and type in "stage 3" and you'll get to doremy's section quickly

Here's the image hope that helps a bit with your discussions.

 

[Malomtek]

What? It's not a name, its a physical location you can see with your eyes. What the **** are you talking about? The stage names in VD don't even mention what location the stage is taking place in. Where the **** are you getting this from?

I didn't know that a "Danmaku Dream" was a "physical location" I could see with my eyes.

And cool it with those "f"-bombs. This is supposed to be a mature debate, after all.

I must've missed the part where dreams equaling reality or every human being having a dream version of themself that acts as a completely separate entity or the existence of a 'dream world' were ever true in real life. And just because Touhou makes occasional reference to scientific concepts doesn't mean literally every single part of the series has some kind of scientific basis. If that was the case, nobody would have magic, or flight, and 99% of the cast wouldn't even exist.

You're constant "debunking" of arguments I never even actually made is getting more tiresome by the second.

I said that there were elements of 2hu dreams that are certainly based on real-life dreams, because 2hu is at least vaguely based on real life. I never said that every single part of 2hu has some scientific basis.

Because we're scaling Doremy to the real-world equivalents of those characters. Who, in case you didn't know, are separate beings from their real world counterparts.

The "real-world equivalent" of a character is a separate being from his "real world counterpart"? What?

And if you're actually talking about the dream-world equivalents, aren't you just contradicting yourself just a few points ago when you directly stated, and I quote:

We are not scaling Doremy to any of the dream replicas. Nowhere was that mentioned.

Just in case, here's stuff from VD that shows locations we can 100% confirm exist in the dream world.
Moon, Earth, numerous stars

Lunar Capital

Land of the Backdoor

Netherworld

Moriya Shrine

Palace of the Earth Spirits

Any questions?

So some snapshots of some locations out of context, and this somehow proof that the Dream World contains 1:1 replicas of various realms in the Touhou cosmology? Please.

And when you consider how Sumireko seems to just "phase" into these various dream realms, there otherwise being no depiction or explanation for how she got into any of these differing realms, it becomes clear that they only contain "pieces" or relatively small subsections of the realms depicted.

https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Th15/omake.txt/en
Here's the Omake txt
just use ctrl+f and type in "stage 3" and you'll get to doremy's section quickly

Here's the image hope that helps a bit with your discussions.

An ability to manipulate dreams is not the same as an ability to manipulate an entire dream world.

 

[Mobi2]

I didn't know that a "Danmaku Dream" was a "physical location" I could see with my eyes.


You're constant "debunking" of arguments I never even actually made is getting more tiresome by the second.

I said that there were elements of 2hu dreams that are certainly based on real-life dreams, because 2hu is at least vaguely based on real life. I never said that every single part of 2hu has some scientific basis.


The "real-world equivalent" of a character is a separate being from his "real world counterpart"? What?

And if you're actually talking about the dream-world equivalents, aren't you just contradicting yourself just a few points ago when you directly stated, and I quote:



So some snapshots of some locations out of context, and this somehow proof that the Dream World contains 1:1 replicas of various realms in the Touhou cosmology? Please.

And when you consider how Sumireko seems to just "phase" into these various dream realms, there otherwise being no depiction or explanation for how she got into any of these differing realms, it becomes clear that they only contain "pieces" or relatively small subsections of the realms depicted.


An ability to manipulate dreams is not the same as an ability to manipulate an entire dream world.

That wasn't what Bernkastelll was trying to ask. I'm addressing this question "Also, can someone give again the scan of [Doremy Sweet] being able to control all dreams?"

 

[Malomtek]

That wasn't what Bernkastelll was trying to ask. I'm addressing this question "Also, can someone give again the scan of [Doremy Sweet] being able to control all dreams?"

I thought that was synonymous with asking if Doremy Sweet could control the entire dream world at once. If @Bernkastelll says otherwise, then that's fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The "real-world equivalent" of a character is a separate being from his "real world counterpart"? What?

And if you're actually talking about the dream-world equivalents, aren't you just contradicting yourself just a few points ago when you directly stated, and I quote:

A mistake on my part. The sentence should actually be "Because we're scaling Doremy to the real-world equivalents of those characters. Who, in case you didn't know, are separate beings from their dream world counterparts." We are scaling Doremy to the characters that exist in the real world based on a WoG statement.

I didn't know that a "Danmaku Dream" was a "physical location" I could see with my eyes.

And cool it with those "f"-bombs. This is supposed to be a mature debate, after all.

That was not the point of the video; you asked to see evidence of Former Hell in the dream world, so I provided.

You're constant "debunking" of arguments I never even actually made is getting more tiresome by the second.

I said that there were elements of 2hu dreams that are certainly based on real-life dreams, because 2hu is at least vaguely based on real life. I never said that every single part of 2hu has some scientific basis.

Okay. What elements? Can you prove that these elements are the same in both real life and in Touhou? Once again, you need proof. You cannot just claim these things work the same; there must be evidence to support your claims.

So some snapshots of some locations out of context, and this somehow proof that the Dream World contains 1:1 replicas of various realms in the Touhou cosmology? Please.

And when you consider how Sumireko seems to just "phase" into these various dream realms, there otherwise being no depiction or explanation for how she got into any of these differing realms, it becomes clear that they only contain "pieces" or relatively small subsections of the realms depicted.

First of all, how does the method of Sumireko entering these stages matter? Her phasing in has no implications in regard to the size of these realms. Also, if these scans are out of context, then what is the full context? Don't make claims you cannot back up. I also suggest you refer to the multiple scans posted on the previous page that help prove that Dream World versions of things are 1:1 replicas, which you seem intent on ignoring.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also thank you to Mobi2 for those scans, it is highly appreciated.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, didn't you spend like 3 pages arguing that stage backgrounds 'debunked' infinite speed? Why are stage backgrounds suddenly unacceptable to use? Pick a side man, the more we do this the more obvious it is you're just cherry picking due to bias.

 

[Mobi2]

Also thank you to Mobi2 for those scans, it is highly appreciated.

No problem

 

[Malomtek]

A mistake on my part. The sentence should actually be "Because we're scaling Doremy to the real-world equivalents of those characters. Who, in case you didn't know, are separate beings from their dream world counterparts." We are scaling Doremy to the characters that exist in the real world based on a WoG statement.

Why? If they're entirely separate beings from their dream-world counterparts (and therefore not necessarily having the same level of power, and vice versa), what makes Doremy able to scale to them in the first place?

That was not the point of the video; you asked to see evidence of Former Hell in the dream world, so I provided.

The dream-replica of a corridor in the Palace of the Earth Spirits could exist in its own space, without need to be inside even the complete Palace of the Earth Spirits, let alone Former Hell as a whole.

Okay. What elements? Can you prove that these elements are the same in both real life and in Touhou? Once again, you need proof. You cannot just claim these things work the same; there must be evidence to support your claims.

The fact that dream simulacrums of certain locations are not necessarily as expansive as those locations in real life?

That's just a basic fact of dreams. I don't need "proof" of that. You need proof that it's actually otherwise in the Touhouverse.

First of all, how does the method of Sumireko entering these stages matter? Her phasing in has no implications in regard to the size of these realms.

It actually does. If those dream realms were actually one-to-one copies of locations in physical reality in Touhou, then Sumireko would be shown physically moving to and fro from them, physically moving to and fro from whatever dimension each dream-world replica is located in.

We don't see that, so we can't assume a 1:1 copy.

Also, if these scans are out of context, then what is the full context? Don't make claims you cannot back up. I also suggest you refer to the multiple scans posted on the previous page that help prove that Dream World versions of things are 1:1 replicas, which you seem intent on ignoring.

The full context being that their just "pieces", little slices, of realms that exist in physical reality. It's backed up by the fact that we never see Sumireko physically moving towards them.

Actually, didn't you spend like 3 pages arguing that stage backgrounds 'debunked' infinite speed? Why are stage backgrounds suddenly unacceptable to use? Pick a side man, the more we do this the more obvious it is you're just cherry picking due to bias.

Again, we never see Sumireko physically moving towards those stage backgrounds.

 

[Mobi2]

Why? If they're entirely separate beings from their dream-world counterparts (and therefore not necessarily having the same level of power, and vice versa), what makes Doremy able to scale to them in the first place?


The dream-replica of a corridor in the Palace of the Earth Spirits could exist in its own space, without need to be inside even the complete Palace of the Earth Spirits, let alone Former Hell as a whole.


The fact that dream simulacrums of certain locations are not necessarily as expansive as those locations in real life?

That's just a basic fact of dreams. I don't need "proof" of that. You need proof that it's actually otherwise in the Touhouverse.


It actually does. If those dream realms were actually one-to-one copies of locations in physical reality in Touhou, then Sumireko would be shown physically moving to and fro from them, physically moving to and fro from whatever dimension each dream-world replica is located in.

We don't see that, so we can't assume a 1:1 copy.


The full context being that their just "pieces", little slices, of realms that exist in physical reality. It's backed up by the fact that we never see Sumireko physically moving towards them.


Again, we never see Sumireko physically moving towards those stage backgrounds.

Okina	私の名は摩ま多た羅ら隠お岐き奈な 夢の世界のお前に 可能性を与えた者だ	My name is Okina Matara. I'm the one who granted possibility to the dream you.
Sumireko (Real)	んー？ 夢の世界の私が強いのは お前の所為かー！ 許さん！ ここで倒してやる！	Hmmm? So it was your fault that the dream me became stronger than me! Unforgivable! You're going down, here and now!
Okina	まあ待て しかし、現実のお前が 目を覚ましたのだとすると 夢の住人だけ 贔屓するというのは不公平だな	Slow down. However, now that the real you has awoken, I suppose it'd be unfair for me to show only one of you favor.
Sumireko (Real)	というと、もしかして 私にも新たな超能力を！？	Are you giving me new powers too!?
Okina	夢の世界の菫子に与えた力を 閉じてやろう これで公平だ	No, I'll just turn off her power. Then it will be fair.

The dream world counterparts have the same level of power the case of Sumireko's is different due to Okina amping her until she took away the amp.
Didn't mean to quote the entire thing just the first part.

 

[Malomtek]

Okina	私の名は摩ま多た羅ら隠お岐き奈な 夢の世界のお前に 可能性を与えた者だ	My name is Okina Matara. I'm the one who granted possibility to the dream you.
Sumireko (Real)	んー？ 夢の世界の私が強いのは お前の所為かー！ 許さん！ ここで倒してやる！	Hmmm? So it was your fault that the dream me became stronger than me! Unforgivable! You're going down, here and now!
Okina	まあ待て しかし、現実のお前が 目を覚ましたのだとすると 夢の住人だけ 贔屓するというのは不公平だな	Slow down. However, now that the real you has awoken, I suppose it'd be unfair for me to show only one of you favor.
Sumireko (Real)	というと、もしかして 私にも新たな超能力を！？	Are you giving me new powers too!?
Okina	夢の世界の菫子に与えた力を 閉じてやろう これで公平だ	No, I'll just turn off her power. Then it will be fair.

The dream world counterparts have the same level of power the case of Sumireko's is different due to Okina amping her until she took away the amp.
Didn't mean to quote the entire thing just the first part.

That still doesn't really explain why they should all necessarily scale to their real-world selves, or to Doremy Sweet, given that these dream variants can clearly be strengthened or weakened by forces entirely external to Doremy Sweet herself.

Was Doremy Sweet ever once portrayed as being particularly "in control" of Sumireko's dream self to begin with?

And keep in mind what I've already said about scaling any given dream-replica to Doremy Sweet to begin with.

Such a thing wouldn't even make sense in powerscaling terms.

Does Doremy Sweet have power over these presumably 1:1 dream replicas of Shiki Eiki Yamaxanadu? Of the Dragon God? Of Eirin Yagokoro? Of the Lunarian twin princesses and Lord Tsukuyomi? Of Bishamonten? Of the Lord of Heaven (a sometimes mentioned, but never actually depicted god in Touhou)? Of all the Indian gods named or mentioned with Byakuren Hijiri's spellcards (Brahma, Indra, Hari, etc.)? Of Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha (both superior deities mentioned in Touhou)?

This kind of thing would just introduce absolutely broken scaling, which is yet another reason I cannot support this.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I apologize for being later than you likely expected, like I was dealing with a family issue, I also apologize if this reply seems misstructured, you guys talked a lot after I was gone, and I'm not exactly motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure that "Danmaku Dream" is just a video game stage name that doesn't actually mean anything in particular.

Yeah that wasn't reeaaally the point, it was to show that the affirmed locations shown in reality are also in the dream world.

Why?

How does a dream somehow existing within a location within Touhouland mean that the dream itself scales to that location's size? That sounds like a complete non-sequitur.

And why is it you find it illogical from previous arguments for it (dream locations being the exact ones) to be true? And well I'll use the fact Sumireko traverses over gensokyo this link explicitly shows the mountain in gensokyo. This one shows the forest of magic. And I could go on about this and this will sound non-educational but play violet detector or at least watch some of the gameplay to see the themes that take place.

Dreams being "just" that, and fundamentally "less real" than reality itself, is never actually contradicted by the setting itself. Dreams being "the other side" of the universe doesn't necessarily make them equally real at all.

There's a reason the dream-replica of the Lunar Capital was called the "fake Lunar Capital", after all.

1. It's never "contradicted" because it's never portrayed. I will reiterate that the dream world as a whole is the opposite side of the reality, dreams are ANOTHER reality within the grand scheme of the Touhou Multiverse.
2. It was called the fake Lunar capital because the dream of all the lunar capital citizens was said capital, like I said though, it's the same setting and components (purity, no fairy life [except for the ones hecatia sent], etc) so there's not much of a difference from the original location.
3. OH and, the moon is visually the same size as it is in other works and the real world, so there's a main part of your doubt of "are they the same size" answered.

Wrong. Dreams were said to collectively make up a single other "reality", meaning that no one dream is a "reality" unto itself.

It's not "ALL reality", no matter how much you might wish it to be so.

So you agree with the notion each spot shown is reality, then. Therefore this is also a concession to the point of 2-C realties because in the real world, said individual worlds are also separated by space-time, etc.

So yes, it is in fact "all reality" going by your answer just now.

making them essentially unusable for tiering purposes, because they could actually be much lower than meets the eye.

Keyword is could, so can you prove this?

I'm pretty sure that at most, that refers to the physical universe, as dreams are constantly juxtaposed with physical reality in the Touhou narrative. None of the other otherworlds are necessarily universe-sized (Gensokyo certainly isn't), and I'm pretty sure the Dream World doesn't really "touch" them anyway (I've certainly never heard of someone taking a dream trip to Hell or Heaven in Touhou), so they don't matter.

It isn't just that at most, the Dream World also has it's own hell, given the earth is also within it's scope should extend to Earth's hells, it extends to gensokyo, and in general is more than just the physical universe.
Within concept and their purpose? Yes, they are contrasted quite differently, but it wouldn't invalidate any of the scaling I've had for it thus far, Reimu mentioned a dream's purpose is to make it easier to talk to gods, but in itself is also a reality.

The fact that dreams are abstract, metaphysical, and essentially only exist in the mind, so they shouldn't really have any dimensioned spatial or temporal component to them.

They don't only exist in the mind though, they've shown physical apparition (Dream souls) which are images of a persons dreams.

――	ドレミーの手に持ってるものは、なんなのでしょう？　うにょうにょしてて、倒されたらぐったりしてるのがちょっと面白いんですが。	What is Doremy carrying in her hand? It's all squirmy and blobby, and when you defeat her it looks exhausted, so it's kind of funny.
Z	あれは『茨歌仙』にも出てきた夢魂ですよ。	That would be those dream souls that also appeared in Wild and Horned Hermit.
――	あれに当たったら寝ちゃうんですか？	Do you fall asleep when you get hit by one?
Z	あれは人の夢のイメージなんです。	It's the image of a person's dream.

Hence why in AFiEU they can help put a person to sleep. They still can take a physical form with a strong enough will as shown in LoLK.

こまでの悪夢 全て処理させて頂きました 肉体を乗っ取りかねない 強い精神を持っているのですね

I've disposed of all the nightmares up to this point. You must have a strong will to maintain control over your body through this.

私は獏バク 夢の世界の住人です 貴方は月の都に向かうと 言ってましたね、しかも生身で そこでは今までのとは比べものにならない 悪夢が待ち受けている事でしょう それは狂夢（ルナティックドリーム）と 呼ぶべきものです 十分覚悟せよ 現し世うつしよから夢を見ている人間よ

I am a baku. A resident of this Dream World. You said you were heading towards the Lunar Capital? And with your physical body, too. There, a nightmare unlike any you have encountered before now awaits you. It is worthy of being called a 'lunatic dream'. Prepare yourself well, dreaming human of the physical world.

Since all that appears to be entirely contradicted by your previous quotes about this, I want the full context. Because it seems that you're just quote-mining and bringing this dialogue out of context.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_33
Claim all you want of dialogue being taken out context.
From there by the way:

「夢見が悪くなりそうな考え方だな……。あ、夢と言えば」		"You're thinking like it's a dream that's getting worse, huh? Oh, speaking of dreams..."
「何？」		"What?"
「関係無いんだけど、夢の中でなら菫子が出てきたって話を聞いたぜ。しかも何人からも」		"This isn't related, but I've heard Sumireko's been showing up in people's dreams. And from multiple people, too."
「へえ、意外と心に残りやすい人間なのかね」		"Really? Huh. She sticks in people's minds more than you'd expect, huh?"
「夢の中で大暴れしてたので、スッキリやっつけてやった、という夢の話を、何故か数人から聞いたんだ。偶然にしては不思議だよな。それに普段、菫子に会うことのない奴まで……」		"They tell me that in these dreams, they're going on a rampage when they get cleanly beaten. And for whatever reason a lot of people are having these dreams. Even people who don't normally see her. Pretty strange coincidence..."
その時、霊夢と魔理沙が同時にあることを思い浮かべた。		At that moment, both Reimu and Marisa simultaneously had the same thought.
「いや、まさかねぇ」		"No way... right?"
「まあ、偶然だとは思うぜ……。中には菫子のことを知らないって奴も、夢に出てきたって言ってたけど、偶然……」		"Well, I still think it's a coincidence... I mean, a coincidence where even people who don't know her are seeing her in their dreams..."
そこまで言って、二人は確信した。		On hearing that put into words, they both became certain.

「――なる程、菫子君はみんなが見ている夢の世界に迷い込んだと言うのか。しかし、夢の世界というのは、頭の中にだけある想像上の世界なのではないのか？」		"I see. So you're saying that Sumireko is lost in this dream world that everyone is seeing? But isn't the dream world just an imaginary place inside your head?"
「そう思うんだけど、私も何度か夢の世界に入ったことあるからねぇ。現実に存在しているのは確かよ。あ、夢の世界は現実と裏表だから、現実に存在するというのは矛盾しているかも知れないけど」		"I think so, but I've been there plenty of times myself too. It definitely exists in reality. Maybe it's a contradiction to say it's in "reality" when the dream world and reality are two sides of the same coin though."

Dreams are again established as realties one goes into.

Was Doremy Sweet ever once portrayed as being particularly "in control" of Sumireko's dream self to begin with?

Because sumireko is a special case, no. Doremy states in AoCF she carries her own spirit into the dream world.

貴方は特殊な人間です 精神が夢の世界の住人と相互に 行き来しています

You're a special human. Your spirit comes and goes along with your dream self.

And since I was looking at the dream copies from a power scaling sense.

Such a thing wouldn't even make sense in powerscaling terms.

Does Doremy Sweet have power over these presumably 1:1 dream replicas of Shiki Eiki Yamaxanadu? Of the Dragon God? Of Eirin Yagokoro? Of the Lunarian twin princesses and Lord Tsukuyomi? Of Bishamonten? Of the Lord of Heaven (a sometimes mentioned, but never actually depicted god in Touhou)? Of all the Indian gods named or mentioned with Byakuren Hijiri's spellcards (Brahma, Indra, Hari, etc.)? Of Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha (both superior deities mentioned in Touhou)?

This does make sense, we should make a proper scaling for this. She shouldn't have control over any gods, not just because they're obviously above her, but belonging to an order of beings like the ministry of right and wrong is out of her jurisdiction because if they wanted to, they could instantly judge her to hell and what not. People like Sagume and the Watatsuki sisters were also unaffected by her influence in the dream world, because they belong to a society of the highest and noblest gods. By both a power and influence measure are much greater than doremy.

 

[AKM sama]

Banning people from this thread who are continuously bickering over nonsense would make it go much faster and smoother. I don't care if you are making useful arguments here, if your comments involve unnecessary remarks from now on, you won't be able to comment here. So please behave properly. And don't reply to this comment.

 

[Malomtek]

Yeah that wasn't reeaaally the point, it was to show that the affirmed locations shown in reality are also in the dream world.

Only pieces of such are shown in the dream world, as far as has been shown.

And why is it you find it illogical from previous arguments for it (dream locations being the exact ones) to be true? And well I'll use the fact Sumireko traverses over gensokyo this link explicitly shows the mountain in gensokyo. This one shows the forest of magic. And I could go on about this and this will sound non-educational but play violet detector or at least watch some of the gameplay to see the themes that take place.

But do they exist in some internally connected dream-world replica of the whole Gensokyo, or are they just separate dream-world "pieces" of those areas?

1. It's never "contradicted" because it's never portrayed. I will reiterate that the dream world as a whole is the opposite side of the reality, dreams are ANOTHER reality within the grand scheme of the Touhou Multiverse.
2. It was called the fake Lunar capital because the dream of all the lunar capital citizens was said capital, like I said though, it's the same setting and components (purity, no fairy life [except for the ones hecatia sent], etc) so there's not much of a difference from the original location.
3. OH and, the moon is visually the same size as it is in other works and the real world, so there's a main part of your doubt of "are they the same size" answered.

Just because the dream world as a whole is the opposite side of reality in the Touhou "Multiverse" (is it a multiverse?), doesn't mean that each and every dream is a reality unto itself in Touhou.

If the "collective dream" (we're assuming) of all the citizens of the Lunar Capital was just said capital, then why do we assume that it goes much farther than that to recreating the entire moon, even given the "same setting and components"?

If the moon in its entirety has been shown in the Dream World as visually the same size as it is in other Touhou works and the real world, then I would say that yeah, it seems that the Dream World can in fact replicate entire celestial bodies. The moon in full has been shown to exist in the Dream World, right?

So you agree with the notion each spot shown is reality, then. Therefore this is also a concession to the point of 2-C realties because in the real world, said individual worlds are also separated by space-time, etc.

So yes, it is in fact "all reality" going by your answer just now.

Uh, no. A collection of small pocket dimensions is not nearly enough to establish 2-C realities.

Keyword is could, so can you prove this?

I'll admit that at the moment, such an idea is unprovable.

It isn't just that at most, the Dream World also has it's own hell, given the earth is also within it's scope should extend to Earth's hells, it extends to gensokyo, and in general is more than just the physical universe.
Within concept and their purpose? Yes, they are contrasted quite differently, but it wouldn't invalidate any of the scaling I've had for it thus far, Reimu mentioned a dream's purpose is to make it easier to talk to gods, but in itself is also a reality.

What? When has it been established that the Dream World has its own hell, given that we've never seen the dream-world replicas of either heaven or hell before? And why does having the Earth in its scope

Reimu, again, said that dreams collectively make up a reality, not that each dream individually is a reality unto itself. In fact, can someone bring up the Japanese raw of that statement, so we can clear things up a little bit more?

They don't only exist in the mind though, they've shown physical apparition (Dream souls) which are images of a persons dreams.

――	ドレミーの手に持ってるものは、なんなのでしょう？　うにょうにょしてて、倒されたらぐったりしてるのがちょっと面白いんですが。	What is Doremy carrying in her hand? It's all squirmy and blobby, and when you defeat her it looks exhausted, so it's kind of funny.
Z	あれは『茨歌仙』にも出てきた夢魂ですよ。	That would be those dream souls that also appeared in Wild and Horned Hermit.
――	あれに当たったら寝ちゃうんですか？	Do you fall asleep when you get hit by one?
Z	あれは人の夢のイメージなんです。	It's the image of a person's dream.

Hence why in AFiEU they can help put a person to sleep. They still can take a physical form with a strong enough will as shown in LoLK.

こまでの悪夢 全て処理させて頂きました 肉体を乗っ取りかねない 強い精神を持っているのですね

I've disposed of all the nightmares up to this point. You must have a strong will to maintain control over your body through this.

私は獏バク 夢の世界の住人です 貴方は月の都に向かうと 言ってましたね、しかも生身で そこでは今までのとは比べものにならない 悪夢が待ち受けている事でしょう それは狂夢（ルナティックドリーム）と 呼ぶべきものです 十分覚悟せよ 現し世うつしよから夢を見ている人間よ

I am a baku. A resident of this Dream World. You said you were heading towards the Lunar Capital? And with your physical body, too. There, a nightmare unlike any you have encountered before now awaits you. It is worthy of being called a 'lunatic dream'. Prepare yourself well, dreaming human of the physical world.

That looks more like an extension of Doremy's dream manipulation than any intrinsic property of dreams themselves in Touhou.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_33
Claim all you want of dialogue being taken out context.
From there by the way:

「夢見が悪くなりそうな考え方だな……。あ、夢と言えば」	"You're thinking like it's a dream that's getting worse, huh? Oh, speaking of dreams..."
「何？」	"What?"
「関係無いんだけど、夢の中でなら菫子が出てきたって話を聞いたぜ。しかも何人からも」	"This isn't related, but I've heard Sumireko's been showing up in people's dreams. And from multiple people, too."
「へえ、意外と心に残りやすい人間なのかね」	"Really? Huh. She sticks in people's minds more than you'd expect, huh?"
「夢の中で大暴れしてたので、スッキリやっつけてやった、という夢の話を、何故か数人から聞いたんだ。偶然にしては不思議だよな。それに普段、菫子に会うことのない奴まで……」	"They tell me that in these dreams, they're going on a rampage when they get cleanly beaten. And for whatever reason a lot of people are having these dreams. Even people who don't normally see her. Pretty strange coincidence..."
その時、霊夢と魔理沙が同時にあることを思い浮かべた。	At that moment, both Reimu and Marisa simultaneously had the same thought.
「いや、まさかねぇ」	"No way... right?"
「まあ、偶然だとは思うぜ……。中には菫子のことを知らないって奴も、夢に出てきたって言ってたけど、偶然……」	"Well, I still think it's a coincidence... I mean, a coincidence where even people who don't know her are seeing her in their dreams..."
そこまで言って、二人は確信した。	On hearing that put into words, they both became certain.

「――なる程、菫子君はみんなが見ている夢の世界に迷い込んだと言うのか。しかし、夢の世界というのは、頭の中にだけある想像上の世界なのではないのか？」	"I see. So you're saying that Sumireko is lost in this dream world that everyone is seeing? But isn't the dream world just an imaginary place inside your head?"
「そう思うんだけど、私も何度か夢の世界に入ったことあるからねぇ。現実に存在しているのは確かよ。あ、夢の世界は現実と裏表だから、現実に存在するというのは矛盾しているかも知れないけど」	"I think so, but I've been there plenty of times myself too. It definitely exists in reality. Maybe it's a contradiction to say it's in "reality" when the dream world and reality are two sides of the same coin though."

Dreams are again established as realties one goes into.

It still doesn't look like Sumireko is particularly "trapped" in the dream world, uncertain character ruminations notwithstanding.

And again, "dreams and reality are two sides of the same coin" aren't enough to establish that each individual dream is a reality unto itself.

Because sumireko is a special case, no. Doremy states in AoCF she carries her own spirit into the dream world.

貴方は特殊な人間です 精神が夢の世界の住人と相互に 行き来しています

You're a special human. Your spirit comes and goes along with your dream self.

Then I guess that proves that there are forces entirely external to Doremy Sweet herself that can affect the powers and abilities of dream-selves, so Doremy shouldn't necessarily scale to any given "dream-self" of a character.

And since I was looking at the dream copies from a power scaling sense.

This does make sense, we should make a proper scaling for this. She shouldn't have control over any gods, not just because they're obviously above her, but belonging to an order of beings like the ministry of right and wrong is out of her jurisdiction because if they wanted to, they could instantly judge her to hell and what not. People like Sagume and the Watatsuki sisters were also unaffected by her influence in the dream world, because they belong to a society of the highest and noblest gods. By both a power and influence measure are much greater than doremy.

So what causes Doremy Sweet to necessarily scale to the dream-world selves of any other character then, especially those clearly portrayed or described as more powerful than Doremy herself? Haven't the two protagonists of 2hu beaten Doremy at least once in canon?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I just woke up so don't expect me to respond to everything in your post. I don't think we should scale Doremy to anyone, rather, we should scale people to Doremy. She has her own L2-C/2-C feat, and we should figure out who scales to that. I think we can safely agree that Eirin, Sagume, and other god tiers upscale pretty heavily from her. Okina, Yukari, and Kasen likely upscale due to being Sages of Gensokyo, and Reimu scales to Kasen due to keeping up with her in a weakened state, and surviving a blow that was most likely meant to kill. And of course, Reimu has her own scaling chains we can go off of, most notably fighting and repeatedly killing Mokou. From there, we can basically scale to every high tier in the verse thanks to Kaguya and Imperishable Night. We also have ZUN's statement that Doremy isn't even a particularly strong youkai, which could mean youkai we know are listed as being 'strong' upscale, like Suika and Aya for example.

I know some people may disagree with me on this scaling, but I think this is what would work best given the weird nature of Doremy's inherent superiority to dream selves (Sagume would logically have a dream self, so why would Doremy be superior to someone who we know is canonically above her?)

Also, "Haven't the two protagonists of 2hu beaten Doremy at least once in canon?" just helps with the scaling. Thanks!

Finally, you've failed to provide scans yet again. Everyone here has posted numerous scans showing that dreams/the Dream World are functionally equivalent to reality, while you've refused to provide any that prove otherwise. I could post them again if that would help, but given that you've ignored them repeatedly in the past, I don't really see a reason. The 'two sides of the same coin' statement in particular should be enough proof, since why would one side of a coin be smaller than the other?

TL;DR: Doremy's dream creation/destruction isn't being scaled to dream selves, but rather the real world versions. Sagume, Eirin, and the Sages of Gensokyo all upscale, strong youkai like Suika and Aya debatably upscale, by your own admission Reimu and Marisa upscale, and everyone listed here has their own scaling chains we can apply to the rest of the high tiers in the verse. As for what tier this would put everyone at, well, I believe I, Guardian_Doge, and others have posted enough evidence to support dreams being Low 2-C at minimum, Doremy is implied to be able to create/destroy/control multiple dreams at once, so a "Low 2-C, possibly 2-C' rating would work for me (why did i make a tl;dr almost as long as the post itself...).

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

What are your conclusions here so far?

 

[Malomtek]

I don't think we should scale Doremy to anyone, rather, we should scale people to Doremy.

I actually agree with this.

She has her own L2-C/2-C feat

I don't agree with this. What is this (Low) 2-C feat of Doremy's, and where does it come from? Doremy has never been shown to manipulate the entire Dream World at once or as a unit, and even if we assumed that each dream was a "reality" unto itself, that wouldn't be enough to establish any given dream as anything larger than a pocket reality in size unless proven otherwise.

I honestly don't understand this underlying assumption you and @Guardian_Doge seem to be having, that each dream shown in Touhou is an entire Low 2-C spacetime continuum in itself, even when there's no actual reason for there to be such. There no reason in particular to believe that the hypothetical 1:1 dream-replica of Gensokyo exists in anything other than its own pocket reality, especially since Gensokyo itself is only the size of a small island canonically.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, a pocket reality that contains 1:1 replicas of low 2-C structures at minimum. I never said Doremy could manipulate the entire Dream World all at once.

The size of Gensokyo is irrelevant; we know there are multiple otherworlds represented in dreams, and again, multiple scans stating that they are equal to their real world counterparts. We've posted scans that give us enough evidence to assume that things like Hell, Kaguya's infinite corridor, Heaven, and whatever other notably large spaces that exist in Touhou's cosmology also exist in the Dream World. After all, dreams wouldn't be so commonly stated to be equivalent to reality if they were missing such massive parts of the cosmology.

At this point, the argument is less about "do dreams equal reality" and more about "do we have enough evidence of low 2-C structures in Touhou's cosmology to assume dreams are low 2-C by extension". Given the existence of Kaguya's infinite corridor, which is pretty clearly an infinite space-time (even if the method of its creation is no longer a valid feat), I would say yes.

The low 2-C feat in question is Doremy's ability to create and destroy dreams, so whatever 'size' you want to put a dream at is what her AP would be. We also have the implication that she can create and destroy multiple dreams at once as per her status of the sole ruler of the Dream World, but this is vague enough that I don't think it can put her directly at 2-C. It would be much more fitting as a 'possibly' rating.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

On the topic of Otherworlds that could support dreams being infinite in size, here's a scan of the PMiSS article on Higan, which states it is both separated from Gensokyo and 'endless'. It also doesn't have the same implication of just being a rumor that Akyuu's Netherworld statement does, so that shouldn't be a problem.

By the way, how exactly are we treating Doremy's dream creation? If she's creating something with infinite spatial extent, it should be a low 2-C feat by default because of how space and time are connected in Touhou, right? It's not like Tenshi's possible H3-A feat where she's just 'shaking' infinite space.

 

[Malomtek]

Yes, a pocket reality that contains 1:1 replicas of low 2-C structures at minimum. I never said Doremy could manipulate the entire Dream World all at once.

Which pocket realities are replicas of these "low 2-C" structures, why are you assuming they're fully 1:1 replicas, and why are you assuming that these replicated structures are "low 2-C" to begin with.

The size of Gensokyo is irrelevant; we know there are multiple otherworlds represented in dreams, and again, multiple scans stating that they are equal to their real world counterparts. We've posted scans that give us enough evidence to assume that things like Hell, Kaguya's infinite corridor, Heaven, and whatever other notably large spaces that exist in Touhou's cosmology also exist in the Dream World. After all, dreams wouldn't be so commonly stated to be equivalent to reality if they were missing such massive parts of the cosmology.

You have snapshots which show only parts of a mansion in Hell, a part of the Netherworld, a part of the Land of the Backdoors (was that realm ever said to be infinite?) and nothing else.

Dreams collectively are stated to be equivalent to reality, not any individual given dream.

At this point, the argument is less about "do dreams equal reality" and more about "do we have enough evidence of low 2-C structures in Touhou's cosmology to assume dreams are low 2-C by extension". Given the existence of Kaguya's infinite corridor, which is pretty clearly an infinite space-time (even if the method of its creation is no longer a valid feat), I would say yes.

As I have said countless times in this thread, Kaguya's corridor wasn't "infinite", it was "finite but unbounded". It only looped "infinitely".

The low 2-C feat in question is Doremy's ability to create and destroy dreams, so whatever 'size' you want to put a dream at is what her AP would be.

An ability isn't a feat in and of itself. And why are you assuming that Doremy Sweet can create and destroy any and all dreams, regardless of their "size"? That sounds like a complete no-limits fallacy.

On the topic of Otherworlds that could support dreams being infinite in size, here's a scan of the PMiSS article on Higan, which states it is both separated from Gensokyo and 'endless'. It also doesn't have the same implication of just being a rumor that Akyuu's Netherworld statement does, so that shouldn't be a problem.

But we don't see Higan in its entirety (that "in its entirety" part is very important) represented in the Dream World (like as a bubble seen from the "outside-in" or something of that kind), so there is no proof that the Dream World scales to its size.

By the way, how exactly are we treating Doremy's dream creation? If she's creating something with infinite spatial extent, it should be a low 2-C feat by default because of how space and time are connected in Touhou, right?

Doremy has not once been depicted or described as creating "infinitely" big dreams before. Hell, Doremy hasn't even been shown or stated to have created the little dream pocket realms that Sumireko travels to.

It's not like Tenshi's possible H3-A feat where she's just 'shaking' infinite space.

Tenshi never shook an infinite space. Bhava-agra has never been once described as "infinite".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Which pocket realities are replicas of these "low 2-C" structures, why are you assuming they're fully 1:1 replicas, and why are you assuming that these replicated structures are "low 2-C" to begin with.

I am saying Kaguya's infinite corridor is low 2-C in nature, and creating an infinite spatial structure in Touhou is low 2-C because of how space and time are connected. This means Doremy recreating realms like Hell and Higan would be a low 2-C feat at minimum, and likely 2-C if multiple are created or destroyed at a time.

You have snapshots which show only parts of a mansion in Hell, a part of the Netherworld, a part of the Land of the Backdoors (was that realm ever said to be infinite?) and nothing else.

Dreams collectively are stated to be equivalent to reality, not any individual given dream.

There is not a single god damn stage in Touhou's existence that shows the full extent of the area the stage takes place in. This argument is absurd. May I also remind you that these stage backgrounds appear for half a second at most in VD; we do not have an opportunity to see the screen scroll in that time. Also I definitely provided more than the stuff you listed.

Also, Reimu's statement hardly disproves anything when 'they' can also be used to refer to singular things, not just a collective. That statement could just as easily be referring to individual dreams as it could be referring to dreams as a collective. We cannot decisively say which one is correct.

As I have said countless times in this thread, Kaguya's corridor wasn't "infinite", it was "finite but unbounded". It only looped "infinitely".

Where is that stated? The only thing we know regarding its creation is that it was made by "infinitely linking miniscule gaps in space-time together", which does not prove that it is in any way finite, or that it's just looped infinitely. Come on man, provide some ******* evidence for once.

An ability isn't a feat in and of itself. And why are you assuming that Doremy Sweet can create and destroy any and all dreams, regardless of their "size"? That sounds like a complete no-limits fallacy.

If that ability explicitly includes creating and destroying things, as Doremy's does, yes it is. Did you not even read the scans posted above stating that Doremy is the ruler of all dreams, which would include the low 2-C ones? Also, it's not really an NLF when the absolute highest I'm putting this feat is 2-C.

But we don't see Higan in its entirety (that "in its entirety" part is very important) represented in the Dream World (like as a bubble seen from the "outside-in" or something of that kind), so there is no proof that the Dream World scales to its size.

Neither do we see literally any other part of the cosmology in its entirety. Saying "well, we only see this much in the stage background so it must be small" is completely ******* absurd. Might as well make Avici small building sized in that case. And yes, we do have proof that the dream version would scale to its size. I'll post the scans that say dreams are equivalent to reality again after this post.

Doremy has not once been depicted or described as creating "infinitely" big dreams before. Hell, Doremy hasn't even been shown or stated to have created the little dream pocket realms that Sumireko travels to.

She has control over all dreams, some of which would contain infinite sized locations or otherworlds. We do not need direct statements about what a character is capable of in order to gauge their power; at that point, nobody would have any feats at all.

Tenshi never shook an infinite space. Bhava-agra has never been once described as "infinite".

Heaven > Netherworld > Hell = Infinite. It doesn't matter if you don't accept this since I was just using it as an example of a time the "affecting space means affecting time" thing wouldn't be applicable, as opposed to Doremy's dream creation.

Anyways, your arguments are increasingly reliant on "well, why don't we see this thing happen?" which is absurd given Touhou's nature as a very text heavy series, where most of the notable feats and abilities are given no visualization and are instead explained in text. Stop demanding context where it does not exist.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Scans for dreams being equivalent to reality. These were literally one page ago but Malomtek continually refuses to acknowledge them so guess I gotta spam them.

Like, we literally have multiple direct statements in canon that say dreams and reality are the same, why the hell is this still a debate?

 

[Malomtek]

I am saying Kaguya's infinite corridor is low 2-C in nature, and creating an infinite spatial structure in Touhou is low 2-C because of how space and time are connected. This means Doremy recreating realms like Hell and Higan would be a low 2-C feat at minimum, and likely 2-C if multiple are created or destroyed at a time.

1. Kaguya's so-called "infinite" corridor isn't Low 2-C in nature for reasons I already explained.
2. The size of Kaguya's corridor shouldn't scale to any of the afterlife realms regardless.
3. There's no reason or proof why Kaguya's corridor is recreated in or otherwise should scale to any part of the dream world.
4. There's no proof that the entirety of Hell is recreated in or otherwise scales to the dream world.
5. There's no proof that any part of Higan is recreated in or otherwise scales to the dream world.
6. There's no proof whatsoever that Doremy personally recreated these hypothetical 1:1 dream-world replicas of either Hell, Higan, or Kaguya's "infinite" corridor. Dreams presumably generally stand on their own in 2hu, and certainly you aren't assuming that anyone's dream-self is created by Doremy Sweet either.

There is not a single god damn stage in Touhou's existence that shows the full extent of the area the stage takes place in. This argument is absurd. May I also remind you that these stage backgrounds appear for half a second at most in VD; we do not have an opportunity to see the screen scroll in that time. Also I definitely provided more than the stuff you listed.

The story cutscene sliders could have shown the full realms of Hell or the Netherworld, recreated in the Dream World, in the form of, say, bubbles or cosmic "branes" or whatever. It's not just about stages.

Also, Reimu's statement hardly disproves anything when 'they' can also be used to refer to singular things, not just a collective. That statement could just as easily be referring to individual dreams as it could be referring to dreams as a collective. We cannot decisively say which one is correct.

Reimu was clearly referring to dreams in the plural, i.e. as a collective, in that statement.

Where is that stated? The only thing we know regarding its creation is that it was made by "infinitely linking miniscule gaps in space-time together", which does not prove that it is in any way finite, or that it's just looped infinitely. Come on man, provide some ******* evidence for once.

My argument come from @Promestein herself, when she says that, and I'm directly quoting here:

We seemingly do not treat infinite expansion / contraction of space as a High 3-A feat. I can think of characters who can stretch space to such a degree that aren't High 3-A (Fortissimo Odin, for example); we treat it as a sort of hax, apparently, judging by how the majority of pages I've seen have treated it

Mmm, I don't think that works. The statement on the wiki is explained by saying that infinite space can exist in any crack in the ground; and thus, you can go anywhere. Not just Senkai; but also Senkai. I don't think that's an infinite size feat.

All Kaguya really has to do is just loop the corridor; she doesn't have to create infinite space if she just loops space in on itself so you go through a repeating hall over and over and over again. I said this in the thread that this upgrade was initially presented in, if I'm remembering properly.

The quote is

Honestly no idea how to quantify this, or what Miko does, due to how little it's elaborated on.

I think "a power that infinitely links miniscule gaps in space-time together" counts as a contraction of space, which, even if taken at absolute face value, isn't enough to establish any kind of particularly cosmic power, especially given how vague the description is otherwise.

If that ability explicitly includes creating and destroying things, as Doremy's does, yes it is.

That doesn't mean creating and destroying things of arbitrarily large sizes. It's saying that a person with the stated ability to "materialize thoughts" into reality can create a universe just because, with no other proof or explanation.

Did you not even read the scans posted above stating that Doremy is the ruler of all dreams, which would include the low 2-C ones?

What is that supposed to mean? Didn't you yourself already admit that Doremy's authority over the dream world is ultimately meaningless? And besides, a title like "ruler of all dreams" doesn't mean much of anything by itself in vs debating terms. We wouldn't assume that some hypothetical character called the "Emperor of the Galaxy" can telekinetically rearrange its entire structure just because.

Neither do we see literally any other part of the cosmology in its entirety. Saying "well, we only see this much in the stage background so it must be small" is completely ******* absurd. Might as well make Avici small building sized in that case.

It's not absurd when you're talking about exactly how much dreams replicate reality in 2hu.

And yes, we do have proof that the dream version would scale to its size. I'll post the scans that say dreams are equivalent to reality again after this post.

I already refuted those.

She has control over all dreams, some of which would contain infinite sized locations or otherworlds.

Doremy Sweet doesn't even have control over all dream-selves (certainly she doesn't control any of the dream-selves of the gods), how can she control all dreams?

We do not need direct statements about what a character is capable of in order to gauge their power; at that point, nobody would have any feats at all.

We might not need direct statements, but we do need visible exploits and visible actions that showcase their power.

We are never shown Doremy Sweet ever personally creating or recreating any of the dream realms that have already been displayed, let alone dream-replicas of supposedly infinitely big otherworlds.

Heaven > Netherworld > Hell = Infinite. It doesn't matter if you don't accept this since I was just using it as an example of a time the "affecting space means affecting time" thing wouldn't be applicable, as opposed to Doremy's dream creation.

And what makes Doremy's dream creation apply again?

Anyways, your arguments are increasingly reliant on "well, why don't we see this thing happen?" which is absurd given Touhou's nature as a very text heavy series, where most of the notable feats and abilities are given no visualization and are instead explained in text. Stop demanding context where it does not exist.

Touhou cannot be nearly as "text-heavy" as you claim it is when it originated in a visual medium (video games) and much of its supplementary materials (such as the official mangas) are similarly visual in nature, so that's no excuse for the lack of visual feats of Doremy Sweet creating or "recreating" infinitely big realms.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Only pieces of such are shown in the dream world, as far as has been shown.

but do they exist in some internally connected dream-world replica of the whole Gensokyo, or are they just separate dream-world "pieces" of those areas?

Yes actually! So the fact gensokyo is shown in the dreams sumireko travels into, Gensokyo as a whole should exists.

The dreams of all living creatures are, in fact, connected at the deepest levels.
This is why in dreams, you can visit places you've never seen, meet people you've never seen, and find glitches you've never seen either. She can erase, create and switch out those very dreams. If one uses the dream world skillfully, they can go anywhere and become anything at all.

Just because the dream world as a whole is the opposite side of reality in the Touhou "Multiverse" (is it a multiverse?), doesn't mean that each and every dream is a reality unto itself in Touhou.

It should be ^^, the mirror world is also a concept represented, which means Touhou goes beyond a single universe? Also brane world establishes a multiverse too, there's also things like the Grand unified theory, which supports the latter etc

I'm willing to compromise and use your interpretation of dreams collectively being a reality.

If the "collective dream" (we're assuming) of all the citizens of the Lunar Capital was just said capital, then why do we assume that it goes much farther than that to recreating the entire moon, even given the "same setting and components"?

Because the entire moon is shown in the dream world and marisa see's that version:

Marisa	罠だって？ やっぱり罠だったのか すぐ目の前にあんな大きな月が 見えているというのに	Trap? Aw, so that really was a trap. Even though there's a giant moon right in front of me, too!
Doremy	月が見えている？ ははぁんそういう事ね	Are you seeing the Moon? Oh-ho, I see now

Doremy	良いでしょう その狂夢、私が処理しましょう 今は眠りなさい 貴方の槐安かいあんは今作られる	Very well. I will dispose of this lunatic dream. Now, sleep. I will craft your Kaian [path that led to the real capital] now.

If the moon in its entirety has been shown in the Dream World as visually the same size as it is in other Touhou works and the real world, then I would say that yeah, it seems that the Dream World can in fact replicate entire celestial bodies. The moon in full has been shown to exist in the Dream World, right?

And yes, stage 3 is the dream world which has the fake moon, stage 4 is the real lunar capital.

Uh, no. A collection of small pocket dimensions is not nearly enough to establish 2-C realities.

What? When has it been established that the Dream World has its own hell, given that we've never seen the dream-world replicas of either heaven or hell before? And why does having the Earth in its scope

Reimu, again, said that dreams collectively make up a reality, not that each dream individually is a reality unto itself. In fact, can someone bring up the Japanese raw of that statement, so we can clear things up a little bit more?

1. A mysterious god who governs the Hells of the moon, the Earth, and Otherworlds.

She has a separate body in each of the three worlds, and can act independently with each of them. Also, since the Moon, Earth, and Otherworlds each have their own Hell, and her core soul resides in Hell, she's a rather troublesome god who can't easily be retaliated against if viewed as an enemy.
The Dream World falls under 'Otherworlds', by the way.

Hecatia’s profile txt by the way ^-^

2. I don’t have the Raw’s at the moment, but if we do use your interpretation, which I’m fine with because it still supports my argument, is that because the entirety of Gensokyo was shown in Violet detector, it means it’s not just a piece of that framework, it is all the framework, because every location can be visited.

It doesn’t disprove the notion of each dream being separate realities either, as for technicalities these dreams have otherworlds (like the netherworld) themselves in which AFiEU Hecatia states this:
As for the relationship between Gensokyo and other worlds, I think it's not really practical for each world to maintain their complete independence. That's because each world is fundamentally interconnected. If you build a giant wall somewhere, that wall is definitely coming down someday, and if you exclude people you consider "unnecessary", then you're definitely setting up your own downfall. Otherworlds aren't "distant" worlds, they're just your neighbors. Take this as advice from a Goddess who's done a lot of traveling between worlds.

And since we know otherworlds are separate realities, the example of dreams collectively making another reality would just lead to 2-C realities.

And since otherworlds have their own hells we should also note because Hell is accepted as infinite realm, each hell should also be it’s own infinite given that hells have no border

What does "divided" mean in this case? Is there a clear border between them?
Hmm. Well, Hell's so big that even if there were a border, you wouldn't be able to tell how blurry it was.

So they all are separate realms, like how Avici is blatantly separate from the usual setting of hell we see, which includes the animal realm, and share a similar framework.

That looks more like an extension of Doremy's dream manipulation than any intrinsic property of dreams themselves in Touhou.

Not quite, they are established as an actual phantom, so nothing really indicates it's doremy's doing.

And they are again called a reality

It still doesn't look like Sumireko is particularly "trapped" in the dream world, uncertain character ruminations notwithstanding.

I don't think you particularly understood the chapter, and my point. It's explained:
As for what's happening now, long story short the dream Sumireko went wild, stole the physical body of the doppelganger, and is now rampaging through the dream world. As a result, the real Sumireko is no longer seeing dreams, and therefore the doppelganger is no longer appearing."

「ところで、ドッペルゲンガーだという幻想郷の菫子君は、今どうなっているのかい？」		"By the way, what's happening right now to Gensokyo's Sumireko, the one we've been calling a doppelganger?"
「ええ、それでしたら夢の菫子に肉体を奪われて、身動きとれずに霊魂の状態でいますが」		"Well, the dream Sumireko took her body, so she's a disembodied spirit, unable to move. Why?"

The real world sumireko and the doppleganger are pretty much the same, you can interpret them as a divided existence, the doppleganger (what i'd call the fantasy version of sumireko) was stuck in the dream world, and because her body was stolen by the dream sumireko, real world sumireko couldn't visit gensokyo.
The Doppleganger still holds a physical existence, which is the main point. Physical travel through dreams, which means the things in them are physical.

Kaguya corridor stuff

No. The assumption of it being a loop requires evidence, the fact the corridor traveled further then just gensokyo into the air

そう、外よ。 貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。 どう？ 外の空気は。	Yes, the outside. You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here. So, how's the air outside?
Marisa	というか、空気はあるんだな。 地上の外も。	Which is to say, there IS air outside. Outside the Earth.

confirms it wasn't a loop, how else would they have traveled upwards.
Given that the same corridor was simply an illusional one in IN, because the one in ULiL is established as being linked with space-time gaps, it should be physical space that is expanded. Considering how Kasen can create her own senkai within the mountain

Doremy Sweet doesn't even have control over all dream-selves (certainly she doesn't control any of the dream-selves of the gods), how can she control all dreams?

Because she creates the dreams, her not having control over a dream self is because they are above her influence as a being ranked much higher than her in the first place, nothing related to the dream's structure, the thoughts people have are contained within a dream that is created by doremy, not the other way around.

And what makes Doremy's dream creation apply again?

That they are in fact physical worlds that are interacted with, she can event consume them which by the way, her consuming them leads to her power growing
Dream-Bestowing Youkai
Doremy Sweet

"My name is Doremy Sweet.
I am the ruler of the world of dreams."

A youkai who rules over the world of dreams.

She normally stays cooped up in the dream world, but she's recently been seen in Gensokyo.
Just what does this mean, in the end?

Her special trait is her ability to pluck "Dream Souls" out of opponents with her attacks.
The more she steals, the more powerful her Urban Legend becomes.

Therefore, yes she should be capable of applying it to ap.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Before we make any more replies, I think that's enough for now malomtek. We should make sure promistien is able to read through posts that don't just seem like immense walls of text.

However, I do feel like I've provided a lot of information regarding the topic, and I've also provided a lot of the lore, scan after scan, so it should definitely be evaluated by someone else, otherwise it'll be an endless battle. Which is pretty much useless.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

@Promestein

Would you be willing to help out here again.

 

[Malomtek]

I just want to respond to two things in particular as we wait for @Promestein.

She has a separate body in each of the three worlds, and can act independently with each of them. Also, since the Moon, Earth, and Otherworlds each have their own Hell, and her core soul resides in Hell, she's a rather troublesome god who can't easily be retaliated against if viewed as an enemy.
The Dream World falls under 'Otherworlds', by the way.

Now wait a minute. If Earth, Moon, and the Otherworlds all each have their own Hells, what particularly establishes each Hell as infinite? As far as I've seen, Hell is only possibly "infinite" as a collective whole - that is, including Avici, otherwise clearly depicted as unique and separate from all the other hells. Aside from Avici, I don't think any other Hell in Touhou was described as "infinite".

Because she creates the dreams, her not having control over a dream self is because they are above her influence as a being ranked much higher than her in the first place, nothing related to the dream's structure, the thoughts people have are contained within a dream that is created by doremy, not the other way around.

And why should that matter in particular? Did Doremy Sweet personally create every dream in the Dream World? Did she create the Dream World as a whole? Is she the personal creator of every dream to have ever existed in the Touhou universe, even ones that certainly long predated her own birth? Is no dream created or existent in the Touhou universe outside of Doremy Sweet's will?

We shouldn't assume that Doremy Sweet is the creator of any given dream in Touhou unless there are explicit visuals (e.g. Doremy being visually displayed forming a dream) or textuals (e.g. an explicit statement that Doremy created this-and-this dream) to that effect. She's just a random baku at the end of the day, not the Goddess of Dreams.