- 40,459
- 12,939
- Thread starter
- #281
That logic, you can't heal beyond Low Mid, because after that point, at resurrection unless it's an immortal.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Some Gen 4 Legendary Revisions
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
- 32,344
- 20,283
At least Mid-High, Mig-Godly I'm neutral on.
- 11,444
- 1,997
The cruc of the Heal Block argument is that "there's no proof that it wouldn't negate Mid-Godly regen"
But the one pressing the argument has to be the one to provide feats. Show that Heal Block has stopped the regen of someone on that scale, and I'll concede.
But the one pressing the argument has to be the one to provide feats. Show that Heal Block has stopped the regen of someone on that scale, and I'll concede.
- 33,408
- 8,430
I am neutral here.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Cal
No. We have the Regenerationn scale for a reason. Low-Mid is healing normally fatal wounds short of decapitation. Don't play with semantics here.
Bringing back someone from the dead through Reality Warping does not count as a healing or Regenerationn feat.
No. We have the Regenerationn scale for a reason. Low-Mid is healing normally fatal wounds short of decapitation. Don't play with semantics here.
Bringing back someone from the dead through Reality Warping does not count as a healing or Regenerationn feat.
- 16,953
- 4,848
Because we're going off of what the move is literally designed to do and unless we're saying its an NLF for Dialga not being able to stop Darkrai from regenerating (which sounds ridiculous) I don't see the issue with the move stopping the highest level of regen that exists in the verse it originated from.
- 16,953
- 4,848
Also, I'm highly certain Dialga restoring the Protagonist from MD isnt just simply reality warping.
Technically speaking, "reality Warping" covers a lot of hax abilities here in one form or another. Doesn't mean we can't specifically mean one thing when reality warping would cover it in the end.
Technically speaking, "reality Warping" covers a lot of hax abilities here in one form or another. Doesn't mean we can't specifically mean one thing when reality warping would cover it in the end.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Kukui
That's also fallacious.
Doing what it's "literally designed to do" does not mean it will always do that to the highest extent of an ability. For instance, I could say "X ability is explicitly to designed to cut through anything without resistance". Does that automatically mean that it would get through a conceptual barrier? No.
What's even the justification for Mid-Godly regen anyways?
That's also fallacious.
Doing what it's "literally designed to do" does not mean it will always do that to the highest extent of an ability. For instance, I could say "X ability is explicitly to designed to cut through anything without resistance". Does that automatically mean that it would get through a conceptual barrier? No.
What's even the justification for Mid-Godly regen anyways?
- 10,394
- 3,348
What are you even saying?
- 16,953
- 4,848
@Reppuzan
Yes, except that statement is also very fallacious in itself. "Anything" there would be regarded as NLF. Also, using a conceptual barrier doesnt disprove the fact that the user who used it has no resistance to [insert here] so even if the barrier cant be broken, doesnt mean the user cant be effected and concepts dont have resistances anyway. In addition, lower mon are not the only ones who have Heal Block, Dialga has it to. So its not like the move in general applies to only fodder, its designed to work for the god tiers too. It's one thing to claim the former can stop a god tier from using mid godly regen. Its another to say someone even higher on the latter cant. Implying any Heal Block cant stop mid godly regen is saying Dialga cant stop Darkrai from coming back at any time, which sounds silly as far as im concerned.
The justification is Darkrai getting completely erased by Dialga and Palkia during the fight and comes back later on entirely on his own. Thats mid godly regen for him. It was claimed here that Arceus has it too but I forgot the reason.
Yes, except that statement is also very fallacious in itself. "Anything" there would be regarded as NLF. Also, using a conceptual barrier doesnt disprove the fact that the user who used it has no resistance to [insert here] so even if the barrier cant be broken, doesnt mean the user cant be effected and concepts dont have resistances anyway. In addition, lower mon are not the only ones who have Heal Block, Dialga has it to. So its not like the move in general applies to only fodder, its designed to work for the god tiers too. It's one thing to claim the former can stop a god tier from using mid godly regen. Its another to say someone even higher on the latter cant. Implying any Heal Block cant stop mid godly regen is saying Dialga cant stop Darkrai from coming back at any time, which sounds silly as far as im concerned.
The justification is Darkrai getting completely erased by Dialga and Palkia during the fight and comes back later on entirely on his own. Thats mid godly regen for him. It was claimed here that Arceus has it too but I forgot the reason.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Kukui
Now you're lying.
Palkia explicitly states that Darkrai was not gone forever but was simply grievously wounded by Palkia's attack and later lost his memories.
Stop taking scenes out of context.
Now you're lying.
Palkia explicitly states that Darkrai was not gone forever but was simply grievously wounded by Palkia's attack and later lost his memories.
Stop taking scenes out of context.
- 33,408
- 8,430
Just gonna say this. Wrong Darkrai. He meant the movie one.Reppuzan said:
- 16,953
- 4,848
What Dragon said.
Was referencing the movie.
Was referencing the movie.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Dragon
It would've helped if you all were more specific.
Even still, I still think it's NLF when Heal Block has virtually no feats. Especially since it literally has not appeared outside of the manga.
@Kukui
The game and anime are separate continuities. I'm especially skeptical of using NLF-ripe statements from one continuity to the next, if they aren't consistent.
It would've helped if you all were more specific.
Even still, I still think it's NLF when Heal Block has virtually no feats. Especially since it literally has not appeared outside of the manga.
@Kukui
The game and anime are separate continuities. I'm especially skeptical of using NLF-ripe statements from one continuity to the next, if they aren't consistent.
- 33,408
- 8,430
Well, like I said, I'm neutral on Heal Block. Ya'll can take care of that.
- 16,953
- 4,848
Yes but since when has the anime had different dipcitions of the game descriptions for their moves? And the very same logic can apply to, well, all Pokemon material other than manga.
Not to mention anime stuff is referenced in the games (Alain and his fight with Mega Ray, Ash Greninja, Ash's dusk lycaroroc, etc.) and pokemon profiles are composite.
Not to mention anime stuff is referenced in the games (Alain and his fight with Mega Ray, Ash Greninja, Ash's dusk lycaroroc, etc.) and pokemon profiles are composite.
- 16,953
- 4,848
@Rep
We already debunked that above.
We already debunked that above.
- 16,953
- 4,848
No I mean we debunked that like halfway up in the reply section.
I can repost it again if you'd like.
I can repost it again if you'd like.
- 40,459
- 12,939
- Thread starter
- #303
I will say that I'm starting to agree with Reppu on Darkrai
- 16,953
- 4,848
My fault for taking a bit. Had to find everything. Here we go:
For one, when Ash asked Palkia (Dialga wasnt here for it but eh) to "restore the town", he only meant for Palkia to move it back into place, in the real world, since well, no one else BUT her can exactly move a floating city out of a floating dimension. And he certainly never asked Palkia to restore anyone to life, just fix the city. Here:
https://youtu.be/VAZ0T5j-p6c
So far, I've proven Oracion was what already restored Alamos Town and that Palkia was not needed for anything else, OTHER than just warping it back into place. Now as for Oracions restoring power...
Since NLF is on the subject here, I'll also explain why Darkrai wouldn't get revived from it and that it would be NLF to assume otherwise.
First things first, if Darkrai was revived from Oracion, people from all over town would have logically witnessed him come back. It makes no sense that he'd come back along with the town, and not one person or pokemon would be aware of it (and Oracion restored the town instantly). Furthermore, Darkrai wouldve immediately began to attack Dialga and Palkia again. They may have stopped fighting, but their very presence in the city made Darkrai want to get rid of them. And from after being revived from Oracion, if he really was, he'd logically have no way of knowing Dialga and Palkia ceased their conflict so he'd only remember what happened before he was destroyed.
Secondly, more importantly, Oracion reviving him would be an NLF. Why? Because the scale of Oracion's power is no where near the damage Darkrai took. Besides restoring the town, the only injury Oracion was seen to get rid of was the crack on Palkias orb that Palkia got from just a SINGLE Roar of time (and given Palkia fought Dialga the rest of the time with no appearance of harm or fatigue from being injured, its not even that big of an injury.) That's the extent of Oracion's restoring. Darkrai on the other hand is very different. Because unlike Palkia, Darkrai has taken multiple upon multiple attacks from BOTH Dialga and Palkia, even their signature moves, before finally being erased. That is far beyond the scope of Oracion restoring a small injury from Palkia, so it would be NLF to assume Oracion can suddenly get rid of so much damage done by 2 god tiers at the same time.
Finally, last point here, it wouldn't make much sense for Palkia to bring back Darkrai. It's beef with Dialga may've been stopped, but certainly not with Darkrai. Both thought he was an enemy to them and an overall annoyance, so she'd have no real reason or motive to bring him back. In addition, if Darkrai was brought back by Palkia, he would have been immediately seen by everyone just like everything else was brought back. Darkrai wouldnt be any different from anything else all of a sudden if this was a true deal.
So the sum up the points here:
-Palkia didn't restore the town, just moved it back to the real world
-Oracion was what restored the town to its original form
-Oracion being able to fix anything beyond Palkias small injury would be NLF
So the conclusion, unless anything else comes up, is that Darkrai regenerated by himself with no one else supporting him and makes the most logical sense.
For one, when Ash asked Palkia (Dialga wasnt here for it but eh) to "restore the town", he only meant for Palkia to move it back into place, in the real world, since well, no one else BUT her can exactly move a floating city out of a floating dimension. And he certainly never asked Palkia to restore anyone to life, just fix the city. Here:
What really restored Alamos town was the song Ash and Dawn played in the space-time tower, Oracion. It turns into this huge phoinex bird thing that surrounds the entire town with its power and restores it to its original form. Everyone was there to see it so theres no way Ash would even ask Palkia to "restore" it. The only logical thing to ask would be to just warp it back to the real world. Oracion restores Alamos Towm here, beginning of the video onward:ProfessorKukui4Life said:
https://youtu.be/VAZ0T5j-p6c
So far, I've proven Oracion was what already restored Alamos Town and that Palkia was not needed for anything else, OTHER than just warping it back into place. Now as for Oracions restoring power...
Since NLF is on the subject here, I'll also explain why Darkrai wouldn't get revived from it and that it would be NLF to assume otherwise.
First things first, if Darkrai was revived from Oracion, people from all over town would have logically witnessed him come back. It makes no sense that he'd come back along with the town, and not one person or pokemon would be aware of it (and Oracion restored the town instantly). Furthermore, Darkrai wouldve immediately began to attack Dialga and Palkia again. They may have stopped fighting, but their very presence in the city made Darkrai want to get rid of them. And from after being revived from Oracion, if he really was, he'd logically have no way of knowing Dialga and Palkia ceased their conflict so he'd only remember what happened before he was destroyed.
Secondly, more importantly, Oracion reviving him would be an NLF. Why? Because the scale of Oracion's power is no where near the damage Darkrai took. Besides restoring the town, the only injury Oracion was seen to get rid of was the crack on Palkias orb that Palkia got from just a SINGLE Roar of time (and given Palkia fought Dialga the rest of the time with no appearance of harm or fatigue from being injured, its not even that big of an injury.) That's the extent of Oracion's restoring. Darkrai on the other hand is very different. Because unlike Palkia, Darkrai has taken multiple upon multiple attacks from BOTH Dialga and Palkia, even their signature moves, before finally being erased. That is far beyond the scope of Oracion restoring a small injury from Palkia, so it would be NLF to assume Oracion can suddenly get rid of so much damage done by 2 god tiers at the same time.
Finally, last point here, it wouldn't make much sense for Palkia to bring back Darkrai. It's beef with Dialga may've been stopped, but certainly not with Darkrai. Both thought he was an enemy to them and an overall annoyance, so she'd have no real reason or motive to bring him back. In addition, if Darkrai was brought back by Palkia, he would have been immediately seen by everyone just like everything else was brought back. Darkrai wouldnt be any different from anything else all of a sudden if this was a true deal.
So the sum up the points here:
-Palkia didn't restore the town, just moved it back to the real world
-Oracion was what restored the town to its original form
-Oracion being able to fix anything beyond Palkias small injury would be NLF
So the conclusion, unless anything else comes up, is that Darkrai regenerated by himself with no one else supporting him and makes the most logical sense.
- 40,459
- 12,939
- Thread starter
- #305
Look, I'm sorry for being an ass earlier. I'm willing to just drop the subject and take what I can get.
- 12,239
- 1,112
Yeah but cal.
Tier 7-A drifloons ovo
Tier 7-A drifloons ovo
- 40,459
- 12,939
- Thread starter
- #307
Funny thing is, as they'd scale to Slowpoke, it wouldn't be that hard to believe tier 7 Drifloon ovo
- 32,344
- 20,283
Can we already apply the accpted things? OVO
- 12,239
- 1,112
Actually though,what do ya make of this?
- 16,953
- 4,848
Id like an opinion on the evidence Rep asked for and I provided as well ovo
- 40,459
- 12,939
- Thread starter
- #311
@Matt. Sure.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Kukui
I still don't see how Oraction couldn't have restored Darkrai.
If, as you said, it restored the entirety of Alamos Town after it was reduced into nothingness, what stops it from restoring Darkrai from nothingness? You're contradicting yourself. Just because Darkrai got hit by Dialga's Roar of Time and Palkia's Spatial Rend doesn't mean that he's suddenly unable to be resurrected. The amount of damage those two attacks did isn't particularly notable compared to the state Darkrai ended up in, which is identical to the rest of Alamos town.
It's also entirely logical to assume that Darkrai was restored out of sight because: 1. He's a recluse by nature. 2. He can melt into shadows. 3. He can create portals. 4. He has every single reason to make himself scarce.
The assumption that Darkrai would have immediately gone back to attacking Dialga and Palkia again is also difficult to believe, given the incredible calming effects that Oracion is meant to have on Pokemon and Humans alike.
I still don't see how Oraction couldn't have restored Darkrai.
If, as you said, it restored the entirety of Alamos Town after it was reduced into nothingness, what stops it from restoring Darkrai from nothingness? You're contradicting yourself. Just because Darkrai got hit by Dialga's Roar of Time and Palkia's Spatial Rend doesn't mean that he's suddenly unable to be resurrected. The amount of damage those two attacks did isn't particularly notable compared to the state Darkrai ended up in, which is identical to the rest of Alamos town.
It's also entirely logical to assume that Darkrai was restored out of sight because: 1. He's a recluse by nature. 2. He can melt into shadows. 3. He can create portals. 4. He has every single reason to make himself scarce.
The assumption that Darkrai would have immediately gone back to attacking Dialga and Palkia again is also difficult to believe, given the incredible calming effects that Oracion is meant to have on Pokemon and Humans alike.
- 16,953
- 4,848
Well for one, some of the town was still in existence so its not like the whole thing was gone.
And that's not what I mean. I'm saying Darkrai is able to take damage from multiple on multiple attacks from Dialga and Palkia, which includes their signature moves. And he's able to keep getting up to fight them before being erased. So the damage being stacked up here is much much more than what Oracion would be able to restore. It wasn't just these 2 attacks it was also all the other hits that Darkrai also got too. Heck he even took a Roar of Time at point blank range and got back up. The same Roar of time that left a crack on Palkia.
Basically, my point is Oracion would not be able to restore Darkrai from being erased when the damage he got was far above the extent that Oracion was able to handle. And Oracion could only take care of a minor wound on Palkia.
And what reason would that be exactly? Because as far as he's aware he'd immediately go back to fighting the both of them. I don't see any reason to keep out of sight here whatsoever.
Yes but that was only meant to stop Dialga and Palkia from fighting. Them fighting or not was not in Darkrais interest in the slightest. He wanted both of them out of Alamos Town completely. Heck, Palkia even hiding in the town made him very upset.
And that's not what I mean. I'm saying Darkrai is able to take damage from multiple on multiple attacks from Dialga and Palkia, which includes their signature moves. And he's able to keep getting up to fight them before being erased. So the damage being stacked up here is much much more than what Oracion would be able to restore. It wasn't just these 2 attacks it was also all the other hits that Darkrai also got too. Heck he even took a Roar of Time at point blank range and got back up. The same Roar of time that left a crack on Palkia.
Basically, my point is Oracion would not be able to restore Darkrai from being erased when the damage he got was far above the extent that Oracion was able to handle. And Oracion could only take care of a minor wound on Palkia.
And what reason would that be exactly? Because as far as he's aware he'd immediately go back to fighting the both of them. I don't see any reason to keep out of sight here whatsoever.
Yes but that was only meant to stop Dialga and Palkia from fighting. Them fighting or not was not in Darkrais interest in the slightest. He wanted both of them out of Alamos Town completely. Heck, Palkia even hiding in the town made him very upset.
- 12,239
- 1,112
That's not true dude, he took the exact same amount of damage as anything else.
- 12,239
- 1,112
Also oracion worked on everyone, and.its shown to work on him in a flash back.
- 16,953
- 4,848
Um
Palkias injury: One Roar of Time cracked its arm
Darkrai's: Was erased from damage from hyper beams, draco metoers, aura spheres, and both Roar of Time and Special Rend more than once overtime.
Yeah this is not the exact same level of damage.
Palkias injury: One Roar of Time cracked its arm
Darkrai's: Was erased from damage from hyper beams, draco metoers, aura spheres, and both Roar of Time and Special Rend more than once overtime.
Yeah this is not the exact same level of damage.
- 40,459
- 12,939
- Thread starter
- #317
Wasn't it Palkia that restored everything? What even is Oracion?
- 12,239
- 1,112
Oracion us the song.
I meant in comparison to the town kukui, that shoukd be obvious.
I meant in comparison to the town kukui, that shoukd be obvious.
- 16,953
- 4,848
@The J-Man
Evidence or it didn't happen
@Cal
Wait really??? You don't know about Oracion??!
Evidence or it didn't happen
@Cal
Wait really??? You don't know about Oracion??!
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Kukui
Why do you say that? If Darkrai was reduced to nothingness like everything else, what's the difference between being erased from existence any other way?
Oracion literally calms everyone down. It's a song that ends conflict. This is shown throughout the movie. I really don't see why Darkrai is the exception when Alicia played it in the past for him.
Right now I'm assumptions and omissions to fit a particular narrative.
Why do you say that? If Darkrai was reduced to nothingness like everything else, what's the difference between being erased from existence any other way?
Oracion literally calms everyone down. It's a song that ends conflict. This is shown throughout the movie. I really don't see why Darkrai is the exception when Alicia played it in the past for him.
Right now I'm assumptions and omissions to fit a particular narrative.
