Smash Bros tiering revision continued

[Keeweed]

That’s how we calc explosions. The characters need feats for those explosions to not be outliers. The feats they have without the explosives, line up with the explosions. The characters have immense difficulty breaking small sections of buildings and somewhat large concrete walls. The bombs also have difficulty breaking these buildings and the bombs on the skyscraper level can sometimes fail at blowing up the concrete.

They literally don’t have any other feats as the 7-A ones are getting nuked.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Sorry, let me rephrase.

What makes the explosions themselves tier 9 outside of range and area of effect, or is it only AoE?

 

[Keeweed]

The fact that we calc explosions based off the size of the explosions. Why would they magically be a higher tier when their isn’t any other feat to scale to. Also the explosives can actually blow something up. The parts of a few apartment stages and the walls on the skyscraper stage. The explosives do this with immense difficulty just like the smashers.

So there is ap feats without the explosives, the explosives, and both line up with each other. Nothing contradicts the explosives being 9-A or possibly 8-C

 

[ElixirBlue]

I wasn’t aware the bombs have their own feats.

Well good. I thought IRL criteria was being used on how powerful an explosion would be and I would’ve argued in Bob-omb’s defense against the notion.

 

[Keeweed]

IRL explosions logic can be used though. AoE fallacy doesn’t apply to literally every explosion, explosions can be outliers if the characters don’t have better feats and/or get wrecked by the explosions consistently.

 

[ElixirBlue]

explosions can be outliers

(This'll be a quick derail but while we are on the subject...)
But whats the issue of a 2-A potency explosion in fiction but has a few feet in range? And if the only thing making the potency of the explosion seem weaker is comparing it to IRL? (Writer questions)

 

[Keeweed]

The explosions is technically an anti feat. It reminds me when low 1-C characters fight with regular moons (I’ve seen that three to four times in fiction unironically). The explosions are feats and they can determine a characters tier, it just depends on how the story treats it and if the characters have consistent better feats. Some series go out of their way to say their small explosions still are more powerful then they should be, in those explosions don’t detract from those verses. Verses like Terraria have small explosions but they consistently obliterate large amounts of metal and rock, so they have a reason to be higher than what their size shows. Smash bros doesn’t have better feats, doesn’t have contradicts against the explosions’ sized, and the ap feats line up with their size for the most part.

Smash bro’s explosions have the most reasons to be anti feats towards a character

 

[Keeweed]

Actually to be more clear. The explosions, in the 2-A cases and other similar cases, are anti feats, it can just not matter due to the characters being consistently vastly higher or they being higher being more consistent within the story.

 

[ElixirBlue]

2-A cases and other similar cases, are anti feats

I don't at all agree with this "a matter of fact" statement, as how I read this. Its under the assumption a writer(could be anyone) who wrote characters being able to take tier 9 damage as normal, weak humans, would then write a bomb to harm a character established as tier 2. The explosion being an anti-feat only because the writer wrote its range too small is the notion I don't agree with.

I don't wish to further derail, however.

Smash bro’s explosions have the most reasons to be anti feats towards a character

If the explosions themselves have tier 9 feats outside of scaling to the characters or simply being explosions, I agree tier 9 might be in consideration, because of how prevalent the bombs are in matches.

Question: How much do items matter in Smash Bros' story outside of gameplay?

 

[Bobsican]

Question: How much do items matter in Smash Bros' story outside of gameplay?

Several spirits (and some Subspace Emissary enemies) use them as their "main" weapon, but that's about it
Peach's down special also has a chance of giving a Bomb-Omb.

 

[Lou_change]

I would recommend that you stop using bad endings as an argument they already where weakened after fighting darkron or galeem. As for the beginning that was an amped attack. The true ending spirits where not just galeem but darkron and the fighters as well and likely all across the world hell the could be novices which are far weaker than legendary spirits. Also spirits are weird in general giga bowser and the hands are most notable but all bosses drop them and I think Dracula drops two.

 

[Bobsican]

Indeed, there's often multiple endings in a game, and that doesn't mean all of them have to be taken into account as "This is definitely the case" when it's just not canon to begin with.

 

[Keeweed]

The bosses, other than Galeem and Dharkon, makes sense because they are spirits. They were turning into spirits like everyone else when Galeem nuked everyone. When Galeem dies however all the spirits are realized. So them being spirits doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t even happen in the story mode, it happened after the final cutscene ended. Also all the other bosses went through the same process every other spirit did to become spirits. Galeem and Dharkon are just straight up murdered.

 

[Keeweed]

Galeem had a reason to be weakened before the fight, the fighters are still his spirits, this is shown to weakened him as Dharkon can begin to win the battle despite them beginning equals.

The smashers don’t have a reason to be weakened, in the cutscenes they are standing there perfectly fine. Galeem has a reason to be weakened, he can have his spirits stolen.

Meaning you are amped with the spirits Dharkon was using and Galeem still murders everyone.

Just because Galeem and Dharkon’s defeat is the good ending, doesn’t make it the canon ending. I can think of many games that have the bad endings be the canon ending.

Also we use bad endings for scaling on this site. SF scales to a bad ending and Sonic was once nearly downgraded based off a bad ending (it was an outlier so it didn’t matter, but the bad ending was still used).

Galeem and Dharkon in the good ending are constantly trying to kill each other at all times. So they have a reason to off each other, they’re powers are being messed with and they are being distracted by the smashers, it’s very likely they killed each other as a result. Especially since every other ending has them stomp everyone combined, they killed literally everyone in the entire universe combined, and their feats are literally over a googolplexian times better than every other feat the smasher have.

Edit: it’s midnight here, I’ll be back tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

@SamanPatou @DarkDragonMedeus @Shadowbokunohero

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Lou_change]

Galeem had a reason to be weakened before the fight, the fighters are still his spirits, this is shown to weakened him as Dharkon can begin to win the battle despite them beginning equals.

What the fighters were never spirits except min min and galeem never used those spirits to "amp" himself.

The smashers don’t have a reason to be weakened, in the cutscenes they are standing there perfectly fine. Galeem has a reason to be weakened, he can have his spirits stolen.

They fought someone who was equal in power to all of them and them standing doesn't mean that they aren't harmed and what spirits stolen. The ones that were not in they possession.
I will handle the rest of these claims after I start getting up.

 

[Keeweed]

The stage very clearly shows Galeem and Dharkon are using those spirits power. When you steal the spirits the darkness or light of Galeem and Dharkon begins to take control of the stage. One of them begins to win the fight depending on which spirits you stole and the other one murders them as their spirits are stolen. The stage makes it clear as day they are getting power from those spirits.

The bosses still have a reason to drop spirits and you get them in the story.

Galeem and Dharkon are completely murdered and you get it after the game’s final cutscene and credits are over. You never get the Galeem and Dharkon spirits in canon, and it contradicts the ending of the game as the spirits were set free.

Edit: I’m going to work, so I’ll be back
later.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Galeem and Dharkon are god tiers and one of the primary moments during the final boss is that they both are fighting each other. And it was a group effort combined with taking advantage of their conflict with each other is the ultimate strategy in taking them down. And based on the other endings, taking one or the other down just results in the other getting much stronger to the point where it overwhelms everyone else.

But anyway, I do agree that Tabuu's feat is 4-A at bare minimum and the Smash cast actually should be comparable to him. It's a common trope that the were annihilated more so because they were unprepared rather than do to being underpowered. Smash scaling has notable inconsistencies, but Saikou brought up Master Hand being comparable to the Smash cast on a regular basis and that as of Smash 4, it's also consistent that they are able to beat Master Core; Master Hand/Crazy Hand's true form, singlehandedly. And Master Core should be no weaker than Tabuu. But the universal stuff, Palkia and Dialga still have their own Tier 2 creation statements if vague. But they're similar in power to other spirits and they can be used as spirits to amp themselves against Galeem and Dharkon. Tier 9 like what Keeweed is proposing seems too low tbh. I'm fine if people are skeptical about Tier 2 stuff, but like what I'm Blue brought up in his blog, 4-A sounds like a reasonable at bare minimum.

 

[Lou_change]

Meaning you are amped with the spirits Dharkon was using and Galeem still murders everyone.

What them freeing the spirits doesn't mean that they are amped by them.

Just because Galeem and Dharkon’s defeat is the good ending, doesn’t make it the canon ending. I can think of many games that have the bad endings be the canon ending.

That is what is accepted and I am pretty sure it is called the true ending.

Also we use bad endings for scaling on this site. SF scales to a bad ending and Sonic was once nearly downgraded based off a bad ending (it was an outlier so it didn’t matter, but the bad ending was still used).

It would still be the outlier
The fighters beat both 3 times, galeem beat 2 times, and dharkon beat them once.

Galeem and Dharkon in the good ending are constantly trying to kill each other at all times. So they have a reason to off each other, they’re powers are being messed with and they are being distracted by the smashers, it’s very likely they killed each other as a result. Especially since every other ending has them stomp everyone combined, they killed literally everyone in the entire universe combined, and their feats are literally over a googolplexian times better than every other feat the smasher have.

In game they literally can't kill each other and that doesn't seem to be the intent.

The stage very clearly shows Galeem and Dharkon are using those spirits power. When you steal the spirits the darkness or light of Galeem and Dharkon begins to take control of the stage. One of them begins to win the fight depending on which spirits you stole and the other one murders them as their spirits are stolen. The stage makes it clear as day they are getting power from those spirits

It is meant to show the to sides it is a war they are using spirits to help fight it.

Galeem and Dharkon are completely murdered and you get it after the game’s final cutscene and credits are over. You never get the Galeem and Dharkon spirits in canon, and it contradicts the ending of the game as the spirits were set free.

Them being completely murdered sounds like what galeem did at the beginning it doesn't matter if they don't have it done after the credits it happened. Yes let's free the embodiment of light and darkness that both tried to kill each other and everything else in existence.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m still at work, so I’m not going to be able to reply more for a while, but there is a single 4-A feat, and it comes from a guy that one shot everyone versus 10 or so 9-A feats that require a crap ton of effort. Why wouldn’t the 4-A one not be the outlier here? “9-A is too low” we are supposed to go for the low ends on this site. We’re supposed to be strict, why are we scaling the characters to a 4-A feat from a guy that stomped everyone combined and not from their own feats that require a crap ton of effort.

 

[Bobsican]

I’m still at work, so I’m not going to be able to reply more for a while, but there is a single 4-A feat, and it comes from a guy that one shot everyone versus 10 or so 9-A feats that require a crap ton of effort. Why wouldn’t the 4-A one not be the outlier here? “9-A is too low” we are supposed to go for the low ends on this site. We’re supposed to be strict, why are we scaling the characters to a 4-A feat from a guy that stomped everyone combined and not from their own feats that require a crap ton of effort.

Oh yes, time to downgrade Marvel, DC and many other verses to tier 9.
Just because there's far more feats in a lower tier doesn't mean that's the tier to use in the first place, after all, the site generally goes for the tier that fits the displayed capability of a character involved, not just the "most common" sort of feats regardless of context.

 

[Eficiente]

I settle with 4-A everyone minus Galeen and Dharkon at 3-A, as Tabuu's 4-A feat is at least legit.

 

[Keeweed]

Well the 3-A definitely doesn’t fits the displayed capabilities of the characters. They constantly struggle with the 9-A feats and literally everyone in the entire universe combined was killed by the 3-A feat at both the beginning and end of the game. The 4-A also comes from someone that stomped the entire cast combined.

In the cutscenes the fighters are constantly shown to be miles away from Galeem and Dharkon and they died at the same time, so I think it’s likely to say they just offed themselves. Especially since the other endings have them stomp you with zero difficulty just like the beginning of the game. Dharkon doesn’t even attack you, his spread of influence without Galeem being in the way kills everyone.

When it comes to Tabuu, he one shot everyone with zero difficulty and there is zero explanation as to why they can suddenly fight him. They just do despite him plowing through everyone a minute earlier.

I hate whenever something could be an outlier people just say “let’s downgrade marvel and DC” those two verses are literally the worst comparison you could ever make. They have been going on for nearly 100 years and have had hundreds to thousands of writers. Versus Smash Bros 5 games all made by the same guy and only 2 to 3 of the games actually have a lot of story. In the story the smasher get stomped by the final bosses. They shouldn’t scale, plot convenience is the name of the game here.

 

[Lou_change]

When it comes to Tabuu, he one shot everyone with zero difficulty and there is zero explanation as to why they can suddenly fight him. They just do despite him

The off waves are too haxed when he lost them the playing field was evened and I want to make something clear I don't now how to figure out stats but the misrepresentation of these feats is not something I will stand by I think a possibly tier might be a good idea.

 

[Keeweed]

If you are saying that the 4-A and the 3-A would just be possibles I’ll be fine with that. I’m always way more lenient with possibly ratings (though I probably shouldn’t be)

Like:

At least 9-A, possibly 4-A, at least 9-A, possibly 3-A with spirits.

Is that what you were saying or did I read your message wrong?

Edit: I’m not personally a fan of the 3-A end of the spirits part, personally I would just change the 4-A from a possibly to a likely with the spirits key since they can get Tabuu as a spirit, but how much he amps the fighters would be unknown.

 

[Eficiente]

Well the 3-A definitely doesn’t fits the displayed capabilities of the characters. They constantly struggle with the 9-A feats and literally everyone in the entire universe combined was killed by the 3-A feat at both the beginning and end of the game. The 4-A also comes from someone that stomped the entire cast combined.

In the cutscenes the fighters are constantly shown to be miles away from Galeem and Dharkon and they died at the same time, so I think it’s likely to say they just offed themselves. Especially since the other endings have them stomp you with zero difficulty just like the beginning of the game. Dharkon doesn’t even attack you, his spread of influence without Galeem being in the way kills everyone.

When it comes to Tabuu, he one shot everyone with zero difficulty and there is zero explanation as to why they can suddenly fight him. They just do despite him plowing through everyone a minute earlier.

I hate whenever something could be an outlier people just say “let’s downgrade marvel and DC” those two verses are literally the worst comparison you could ever make. They have been going on for nearly 100 years and have had hundreds to thousands of writers. Versus Smash Bros 5 games all made by the same guy and only 2 to 3 of the games actually have a lot of story. In the story the smasher get stomped by the final bosses. They shouldn’t scale, plot convenience is the name of the game here.

Key word settle, I have been over this for 2 years I think. I don't agree with the cast being just 9-A, and 4-A "feels" a bit too high for them, but it comes from a legit feat as it's the legit tier Tabuu has, the cast did beat him by ganging up against him, MH can beat gangs of the cast and CH is his equal, and MH wasn't destroyed by an attack from Tabuu, so 4-A MH & CH should be fine too. With that weight away on how I'm multitasking stuff I will then put more attention on what tier the cast should have and can maybe reach a different conclusion. Or not, Tabuu did use hax sometimes, and the cast can beat MH level beings who shouldn't have their power restrained unlike base MH.

 

[Lou_change]

Yes you're correct. And I get the logic you have the company behind all this is very bad at making things consistent.

 

[Keeweed]

Well if the 4-A feat is a little high for them and the 9-A feats are too low I think the possibly or likely solution to problems like this would be fine. It covers the crap ton of low ends feats they have and the wonky story scaling. Since it takes into account they do get wrecked by these guys but the story just says they win anyways. (Referring to Efi’s comment)

 

[Lou_change]

I will admit such a compromise is not what we are here for also stickers and smash 4 equipment are things and smash run or smash tour are things I guess will we ever acknowledge them?

 

[Eficiente]

So, between the tier of the cast based on their feats, the tier of the top-tiers, the would-be scaling to them, and scaling to the Galeem & Darkhon via Spirits, there are a bunch of things to talk about here. Let's not go in circles and deal with the tiers of the top-tiers first, as that came from the threads before this one. If we do so we may even finish everything in this thread, at best.

Did nobody read this? Go over 1 thing at a time isn't much to ask.

 

[Keeweed]

I see I read that wrong. I thought we would be going over who scales, not what they scale too. Sorry about that.

I don’t think the characters should scale to the Pokémon gods as the low 2-C statement is referring to Pokémon not Smash Bros. There isn’t any other low 2-C feats, so Galeem and Dharkon should scale to their 3-A statement.

 

[ElixirBlue]

When it comes to Tabuu, he one shot everyone with zero difficulty and there is zero explanation as to why they can suddenly fight him. They just do despite him plowing through everyone a minute earlier.

Actually, there would be an explanation. Sonic crippled Tabuu’s wings before he could wipe out the cast again with his in-cutscene attack.

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah but sonic is a regular fighter that would be on par with the rest of the characters, the characters Tabuu one shot in mass.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yeah but sonic is a regular fighter that would be on par with the rest of the characters, the characters Tabuu one shot in mass.

With an attack from his Sonic interrupted and crippled. The attack Tabuu used would simply be greater than his physicals, since it’s implied he was about to wipe out the cast, again, right before Sonic came in.

 

[Keeweed]

But the wings should scale to their own ap as they don’t destroy themselves upon firing. His attack is also an omnidirectional wave he’s in the middle of and he doesn’t kill himself with it either. So Sonic would have one shot something that can survive an attack that one shot everyone else.

Plus if Tabuu does directly scale to everyone then that means his feat should compared to their own. Which brings up the vastly higher amounts of 9-A feats that they struggle with immensely.

 

[Lou_change]

The wings are hax I believe.

 

[Keeweed]

As far as I remember the wings were hax because people turned in statues upon being hit, but people when defeated for other reasons also turned to statues in that game. So there isn’t any reason for it to not be ap, as far as I’m aware. I actually want to replay brawl soon.

 

[Lou_change]

Just like the dark cannon but it might be ap again we are dealing with Nintendo.

 

[Eficiente]

As far as I remember the wings were hax because people turned in statues upon being hit, but people when defeated for other reasons also turned to statues in that game. So there isn’t any reason for it to not be ap, as far as I’m aware.

Well, it's not that black and white, beating someone to death kills them but that doesn't mean Death Hax can't be hax and has to be AP. Turning others to trophies seems to be hax as that's what it does, +it's called "off-waves", I figure they "turn off" others, in a way that punching them in the face doesn't.