Smash Bros tiering revision continued

[Keeweed]

That’s a very weird way to phrase it, but I get what you mean.

If everyone else is fine with scaling directly to Tabuu I guess I’ll be fine with it. I haven’t played brawl in a very long time so I don’t remember the story too well. I just remember Tabuu one shot everyone.

The main reason I joined these smash bros threads is because I’ve played ultimate a lot and I think the characters definitely shouldn’t scale to Galeem and Dharkon.

 

[Antvasima]

Keeweed does make valid points above. Perhaps we have to use "At least 9-A, possibly 4-A" in lack of better options?

 

[Eficiente]

Well, 9-A is still too low, putting aside scaling to in-game items and bosses who may be outliers, Kirby was exposed to this and survived fine in-story.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We could get that feat calculated and use it as a lower border then.

 

[Eficiente]

We forgot about this thread. It's important as we reached this conclusions:

• Galeem and Dharkon being 3-A
• Tabuu being 4-A
• The cast at least scaling, and the hands upscaling from, this

• Well, 9-A is still too low, putting aside scaling to in-game items and bosses who may be outliers, Kirby was exposed to this and survived fine in-story.

Which doesn't have a calc, and is the most likely thing to be changed into another tier later.

I would need this profiles unlocked: Galeem, Dharkon, Tabuu, Master Hand and Crazy Hand. I'll put the latter two with the same tier as how the cast is right now for the lack of a better option, besides the fact that again that can change later.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Eficiente]

Ok

I would need this profiles unlocked: Galeem, Dharkon, Tabuu, Master Hand and Crazy Hand

 

[Antvasima]

I already unlocked them earlier today.

 

[Eficiente]

My bad, I'm using a different computer and didn't sign in in our main page.

 

[Eficiente]

That's done. We should delete this profile if no one disagrees, it's pretty pointless.

 

[Lou_change]

What about Assist Trophy

 

[Eficiente]

That too.

 

[Bobsican]

I don’t think Sephiroth’s feat is legitimate. The reason we use it for FF is because that game goes out of its way too say it is real. In smash bros the super nova causes the sleep and stun status effect, so I think they made the same mistake like 90% of people do when talking about Sephiroth’s super nova: Thinking it is a mental attack. In Final Fantasy it isn’t, but in smash bros it causes mental damage and has zero proof of being real. It also is a gigantic outlier since there are a crap ton of 9-A feats. I finish my summer classes tomorrow, so I’ll gather a list of feats on Friday. Also Sephiroth is a dlc character, so I don’t think he’s even canon to smash ultimate since he doesn’t appear in the first cutscene or as a collectible character throughout the story mode. Plus his intro cutscene literally has him contradict the entire story of the game.

On second thought, even in canon Supernova inflicts a ton of random status effects, so that detail not only is fitting, it also shows it not being a supportive detail of being an illusion, especially considering it does inflict physical damage in both cases, overall an assumption is required to claim its not a legitimate feat as there's nothing implying it being fake in Smash.

 

[Eficiente]

Sakurai also said in the showcase of Seph's moves that he casts Meteor for it. I don't put into question that myself, the problem with scaling to Seph is another.

 

[Antvasima]

I deleted the requested pages, although somebody will have to remove the links to them from the Super Smash Bros. page.

I will lock the pages that I unlocked earlier as well.

 

[Bobsican]

Sakurai also said in the showcase of Seph's moves that he casts Meteor for it. I don't put into question that myself, the problem with scaling to Seph is another.

Well, it's clear that others on his level (Aka, the other fighters) can withstand it, so I'd say others like Master Hand could upscale.

 

[Eficiente]

That is based on gameplay alone. Do you have any reason as to why gameplay of all things would be better than the showings of his animated trailer?

 

[Eficiente]

I deleted the requested pages, although somebody will have to remove the links to them from the Super Smash Bros. page.

That's done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. What, if anything, is left to do here?

 

[Eficiente]

Anyone can go over the tier of the low-tiers in another thread. So I'll just wait until Bob may be satisfied with what I replied to what he said or a continuation of that and then close the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Bobsican]

That is based on gameplay alone. Do you have any reason as to why gameplay of all things would be better than the showings of his animated trailer?

Going by the trailer Sephiroth just killed Galeem in one move right before it fired the beams while amped by multiple Master Hands, so I'd dismiss the trailer as non-canon as it goes against the established events in World of Light, and gameplay is the main metric we have to judge fighters outside of explicit things, especially considering it's not like a player can manipulate how the Final Smash is done, either it lands or it doesn't, with no significant changes on the regard of potency for our purposes.
The trailer also contradicts scaling as Cloud was able to stand against him and harm him with Omnislash, so Cloud shouldn't have lost to Galeem if we went like that.

 

[Eficiente]

Just because it's not canon in the sense that it didn't happen doesn't mean that what was shown wasn't a canon representation of the character's capabilities, like the cast losing to Master Hands and Galeem being able to shoot his rays of light again. In-game Seph also has his classic more going over boss after boss whereas just fighting 1 boss often takes team work for others, going along with the idea of Seph being above the regular member of the cast. Gameplay is a very vague metric to judge things as anything can happen in it regardless of in-universe weaker power or speed being stated for the likes of PKMN and assistants, gameplay is only not contradicted most of the time because of course it isn't, but with so much as hints that it isn't accurate it cannot be taken at face value. Cloud was only able to stand up to him with Limit Breaks and a better version of his final move.

 

[Keeweed]

Is Sephiroth even canon to smash’s story mode. He doesn’t appear in the story mode in any of the cutscenes and his trailer is a hard contradiction to the events that took place in the story mode.

 

[Bobsican]

Spirits are straight up added, I'd say they're legitimate additions to the lore.

And if we want to go there, Sora could stand up against Sephiroth without using a Final Smash in his trailer.

 

[Keeweed]

Sephiroth isn’t even a spirit based off his trailer. Galeem never got to do his attack that made the spirits. So I have no clue why there being spirits makes Sephiroth canon to the story mode.

He never appears in the story mode and his trailer contradicts it as hard as it can. Why would we use Sora’s trailer to scale when trailers clearly aren’t canon by this point. Sephiroth’s trailer shoots the story in the face. Sora’s trailer also has all the characters be in this strange nowhere and has Mario summon Sora despite that location not being in the story mode and Sora also not being in the story mode.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, so you want to dismiss the canonicity of the trailers, yet at the same time want to use them to dismiss DLCs being canon, that doesn't really work as if the trailers aren't canon to begin with then there's no arguments to base from them in the first place either on that regard.

In any case, like Eficiente said, just because it's not canon in the sense that it didn't happen doesn't mean that what was shown wasn't a canon representation of the character's capabilities.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here then?

 

[Keeweed]

I’m at work, but how would I dismiss the canon of the trailers without bring them up? The reason they aren’t canon is because they hard contradict the game’s story. Why would we use them if their events are the exact opposite of those that happen in the game.

I’m using a trailer to say the trailers aren’t canon because both contradict the actual games story.

Note: I’m at work right now so I won’t be able to respond for a while.

 

[Bobsican]

No, I meant the canonicity of the DLC stuff, not the trailers themselves.

Needless to say, Final Smashes aren't bound to trailers, they're an innate ability of every fighter and any of them can even use them in World of Light.

 

[Keeweed]

They don’t appear in the cutscenes though. You also don’t obtain them either the game just teleports them into your inventory. Heck Min Min and Mythra are both regular spirits in the world of light so it contradicts them being playable members storywise.

 

[Bobsican]

Not all playable characters (non-DLC for that matter) appear in vanilla cutscenes to begin with (case in point, Young Link is obligatory to complete World of Light, yet he doesn't appear in cutscenes), there's also precedent on this regard with Toon Link not appearing in the Subspace Emmisary either, and spirits just get within a copy of a proper fighter's body, it's plausible to consider that a retcon happened that rendered them among the others that did try to fight Galeem (off-screen, thus letting them keep a body), which is reasonable given that it's implied that not all victims of Galeem's stuff were on-screen nor were fought within World of Light itself:

Source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Adventure_Mode:_World_of_Light

• It is implied that spirits not appearing in World of Light are also victims of Galeem's attack. In the Direct that revealed World of Light, when Sakurai mused before the trailer that revealed the mode on what caused the characters to be turned into spirits, some spirits such as K.K. Slider (obtained after enhancing the DJ K.K. spirit) and the Moon (which must be summoned) were shown, which are unobtainable in World of Light. Additionally, the spirits of Hades (exclusive to the Spirit Board) and Hanenbow (exclusive to shopping) are explicitly known to be victims of Galeem, with the former being mentioned by Sakurai in an interview, and the latter being shown during to the World of Light opening cutscene as one of the non-playable characters vaporized by Galeem.

 

[Eficiente]

You're looking way too much into this,

And if we want to go there, Sora could stand up against Sephiroth without using a Final Smash in his trailer.

In gameplay of the trailer, where everything can happen and poetic similarities/parallels of things happen at random, it was not a 3-D cutscene that tells a more serious short story that took more effort to make.

 

[Keeweed]

“You're looking way too much into this,”

I’m still at work, so I only time to ask is this referring to me?

 

[Eficiente]

No.

 

[Bobsican]

You're looking way too much into this,

In gameplay of the trailer, where everything can happen and poetic similarities/parallels of things happen at random, it was not a 3-D cutscene that tells a more serious short story that took more effort to make.

Looking too much into something isn't necessarily counterproductive, but anyways...

I wouldn't say it was a random thing, it's clear that some spotlight was done over it, especially considering how it's a reference to how Sora fights him in KH games, and "considerable" effort isn't always required to tell a detail.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions so far, and what still needs to be decided, here?

 

[Bobsican]

It's still being debated on whether Sephiroth's Supernova is usable for scaling or not, beyond that everything else appears to be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what have you agreed to apply?

 

[Eficiente]

Looking too much into something isn't necessarily counterproductive, but anyways...

I wouldn't say it was a random thing, it's clear that some spotlight was done over it, especially considering how it's a reference to how Sora fights him in KH games, and "considerable" effort isn't always required to tell a detail.

You misunderstood my use of the word random, it doesn't matter how Sora fought him in his games, this being randomly picked as being referenced out of all the things that could have been referenced doesn't hold any notable significance. You disregard common sense if you believe something like Seph seeming to cut a stage in 2, Cloud seeming to turn someone into a frog, many Roys blowing themselves up in a row like mad men, and a long etc. has as much significance as the actual dialogue characters have and better made cinematics, clearly one matters more while the other holds less significance & are made more for fun, it is evident, again by common sense, that ignore gamplay isn't the same as ignoring the cinematics too and take in the cinematics isn't the same as take in gameplay too. If you understand this then you can understand what I meant by you looking too much into this, which you also misunderstood on what I meant by. Please do not make me deconstruct this any further.