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Simon the Digger vs Chimera (GRACE ENDED)

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Fixxed said:
although in BFR it doesn't work, because Simon himself can return to the Realm forcibly as in the case of Simon entering the Anti spiral realm by Teleport
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Only if he can enter non-existence using that.

GreatIskandar14045 said:
No...?
Since when did this rule apply? Basically, you're saying that if a character could casually one-shot another 2-A characters, or one-shotting baseline 2-A characters in plain english, it wouldn't matter here because it doesn't necessarily apply to other fictions via this addition/multiplication of infinities argument which is completely unrelated to chain scalings at all, actually.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. Multiplier/chain scaling being capable to goes beyond infinite power has been universally accepted, this is completely different thing than adding the number of universes to an already infinite universes which will still result the same cardinality because all countably infinities are equal, everybody knows this like, there's no need to affirm this once more. Let's say, Post-Multiverse Labyrinth Simon was infinite baseline High 1-C (ignoring the fact that he might be more powerful via the gap between universes being unknownable), he then combines his power with his many friends (that each being equal to him) in order to form a greater power, TTGL. TTGL transformed to STTGL, much greater power again. Then have we have Post-Apotheosis Simon (the key we used right now) inherited the power of STTGL and gained a massive power amplification through the trust of his friends (in Gurren Lagann, you can amp your power via fighting spirit) and finally killed the Anti-Spiral after struggling in vain. That's chain scalings, that's reactive evolution, and that's how a drill works.
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Just because something is a common argument you see in threads, doesn't mean it's universally accepted. The only really "universally accepted" things are stuff that lands on wiki pages.

Anyways, I believe I made my argument and it doesn't really matter, because he can't overcome hax with that power anyways. And without being able to counter Chimera's hax, Simon gets nowhere.

GreatIskandar14045 said:
No one said a multiple set of infinite multiverse being higher than an infinite multiverse, we all knows that (well probably not for Toaru folks here since they seem to lack knowledge regarding how Tiering System works).
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No need to get condescending, dude.

GreatIskandar14045 said:
Exactly, we are all aware of that and as I said, the universes are branched out via quantum cosmology. If there's 11D universes in the 11D multi-layered multiverse then there's an infinite number of 11D universes, also 4D universes are quiet much nonexistent as they are never mentioned at all, Gurren Lagann adapted M-theory with brane cosmology, to be precise.
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Not everything in brane cosmology is 11-D, though. But anyways, if you have evidence that a particular infinite set of split 11D universes was destroyed then that's fine.

GreatIskandar14045 said:
Then mind to elaborate how Chimera's mind manipulation is anything as impressive, then? If that doesn't make much difference then how the hell do we determine the potential of mind manipulation?
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One is trapping a mind and the other is destroying a mind. It's not a matter of impressive. At least, not primarily. It's a matter of nature i.e. mechanics. Saying that breaking out of a mind prison implies resisting direct destruction of the mind, is like saying that escaping a physical prison implies resisting physical destruction. Or one could also compare it to how resisting sealing is different to resisting existence erasure. One tires to destroy the mind, while the other tries to trap it whole.

GreatIskandar14045 said:
How does being an abstraction of a power source that resides deeper than the whole cosmology is just something akin being conventional mind/energy?
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How is it different? It's not like he is conceptual in nature of something like that.

GreatIskandar14045 said:
In TTGL they kind of do, a Big Bang create a universe and a Big Crunch collapses a universe, after the universe is collapses everything becomes the realm of nothingness. It is not just being outside time and space since there's nothing left outside of it, they were fighting at the edge of the multiverse.
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So, what is the real of nothingness in nature? Is it reliably stated to lack space and time or is that something you infer?

I'm talking about a place that isn't even a place, since something that doesn't exist can't be a place either. This isn't a vacuum without spacetime, which is empty but fundamentally still exists, but something in a (paradoxical) state of non-existence.


We talked a lot about soul hax and void stuff now. But how is Simon meant to overcome the law hax?
 
Reading through some of the posts here, I'm more swayed by DontTalk's argument for why Chimera should be favoured. So put me down as Chimera for the win here.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Just because something is a common argument you see in threads, doesn't mean it's universally accepted. The only really "universally accepted" things are stuff that lands on wiki pages.
Click to expand...
They are not just common arguments, they were said by many staffs here (even by Ultima himself if my memory recall correctly). If you want to make sure that chain scaling or multiplier are utterly irrelevant in High 3-A and 2-A, or any tiers that possess infinite levels of power with their own dimensional variants due to this countably infinite argument then, do make a CRT about it, I guess?

DontTalkDT said:
No need to get condescending, dude.
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Apologize for that but no offense, it is still surprising that they were still insisted a universe with infinite extension has the same size with infinite universes when empirically it is impossible to be proven, half of a year after our previous debates. Also, I did not refer it to you.

DontTalkDT said:
Not everything in brane cosmology is 11-D, though. But anyways, if you have evidence that a particular infinite set of split 11D universes was destroyed then that's fine.
Click to expand...
I understand that but correct me if I wrong, if the alternative method of the string theory, the braneworld model, is applied, then our universe would 10D or 11D now by extending the six or seven extra dimensions that are closed and curled up in microcospic scale, and Gurren Lagann's quantum cosmology is a thing (a mechanic that will always branch the universes into infinity). Anyway, it doesn't really matter much here, since even if there's no infinite set 11D universes there are still multiple things that indicates that they are still 11D on infinite levels.

DontTalkDT said:
One is trapping a mind and the other is destroying a mind. It's not a matter of impressive. At least, not primarily. It's a matter of nature i.e. mechanics. Saying that breaking out of a mind prison implies resisting direct destruction of the mind, is like saying that escaping a physical prison implies resisting physical destruction. Or one could also compare it to how resisting sealing is different to resisting existence erasure. One tires to destroy the mind, while the other tries to trap it whole.
Click to expand...
Fine, but what about the hive-minds then? Simon encompasses his entire selfs throughout the multiverse and presumably infinite souls too.

DontTalkDT said:
How is it different? It's not like he is conceptual in nature of something like that.
Click to expand...
You're the one who said to me that fiction can be anything it wanted. Gurren Lagann treated "thought" (actually, it is not just thought in literal sense but also abstract feeling and emotion) as something akin fundamental, since "feeling" is transcendental (it can goes beyond time and space) and is the subset of Spiral Power which symbolizes everything in the verse, it is a force that defines evolution itself and governs life and death, for instance. Because Spiral Power is no ordinary energy, it is a transcendental double helix that exists as the underpinning of the Universe, running the entire existence itself as its metaphysical core.

Simon and TTGL are the manifestation of Spiral Power, taking the form of emotions, which is doesn't matter anyway since both of them are transcendental. Though, I'm not sure about this "conceptual" nature but saying that they can be affected by cherry picking "thought" is just like saying I can demolish any Type 1 Abstract Existence beings that take form of informations as the most quintessential aspect in the verse with just conventional Information Manipulation, is that what you're trying to say? I admit I don't really understand with your logic.

DontTalkDT said:
So, what is the real of nothingness in nature? Is it reliably stated to lack space and time or is that something you infer?

I'm talking about a place that isn't even a place, since something that doesn't exist can't be a place either. This isn't a vacuum without spacetime, which is empty but fundamentally still exists, but something in a (paradoxical) state of non-existence.
Click to expand...
I guess my blog is ignored. Anyway if there's a line of difference between a vacuum without spacetime and real nothingness, then probably you can evaluate the scans by yourself. So I'll leave it to you to decide on whether it is a nonexistent place or not.

The universe popped out from nothingness after the Big Bang.
"[Quantum cosmology] [Other] A theory of the universe explained by quantum mechanics. It analyzes the probabilistic interpretation of the universe from nothingness to entire Universe by dealing with the microcosm immediately after the birth of the universe."
Click to expand...

Spiral Nemesis (a catastrophic event in the verse) returns all of existence to the void.
"Then watch. Watch where this Universe is headed. See the Universe destroyed by the power of the Spiral, which thinks only of evolving.

Spiral Power is the force which binds together lifeforms and the Universe. The growth of galaxies is proportional to the growth of life. Life developed in search of forms that would help it acquire...even more power of the Spiral. This is evolution. But the end result would be a loss of control over their Spiral Power, and all life becoming its own galaxy. These mega galaxies would then devour each other, forming a black hole, and then this Universe would return to nothingness.

This is the Spiral Nemesis"
Click to expand...

So basically, the Big Crunch was an inverse of the Big Bang which created a universe as whole and popped it out from nothingness before dealing with microcosmos. It also was a miniature Spiral Nemesis that devours anything to the void that created by excessive Spiral force; the 2 Giga Drill clashes. There's more thing from Japanese Wikipedia although it is a secondary source, but it is heavily backed up from many inner sources such as Work Soul and Final Drill guidebooks.
"Gurren Lagann unleashes the Giga Drill Break. The power of the burning Spiral itself transforms into a gigantic Giga Drill and appears. It boasts a power that destroys a large number of universes like a grain of dirt, but because its power is evenly matched by the Anti-Spiral's "Anti-Spiral Giga Drill Break", the aftermath of the collision causes a Big Crunch that destroys not only the Super Spiral Universe, but also all universes created by Anti-Spiral. Immediately after becoming a world of nothingness, the reaction of the destructive energy and the friction between the Spirals and the Anti-Spirals caused the instantaneous creation of the Universe (Big Bang) again (Inflation), and yet the energy never ran out. What appears at the end of the collision of the two superb drills..."
Click to expand...

DontTalkDT said:
We talked a lot about soul hax and void stuff now. But how is Simon meant to overcome the law hax?
Click to expand...
If we can agree that his Abstract Existence is more than "that", then most likely it wouldn't work.
 
Holy shit, this battle has the most amount of votes I've ever seen in VS Battle (this site specifically) history. Never thought a match between these two verses would get this kind of attention
 
DontTalkDT said:
But how is Simon meant to overcome the law hax?
Click to expand...
Acausality type 4 and abstract existence as mentioned previously, multiple times. Since he works under a different cause and effect system, he likely wouldn't be affected by law manipulation, which so far is only shown to affect what exists as part of the regular cause and effect cycle
 
This match remind me to make a rematch between simon vs WOH post-update , but first this fight need a finish.
 
BluudyManikin777 said:
Acausality type 4 and abstract existence as mentioned previously, multiple times. Since he works under a different cause and effect system, he likely wouldn't be affected by law manipulation, which so far is only shown to affect what exists as part of the regular cause and effect cycle
Click to expand...
From what I understand, acausality type 4 only seems to grant protection against things that are already predetermined (hence the cause and effect thing), so I don't really see it protecting him from law manipulation. If anything, law manipulation would be exactly the kind of ability that counters acausality type 4, whereby the user has the ability to change those parameters and the rules that govern them.
 
Accel0305 said:
From what I understand, acausality type 4 only seems to grant protection against things that are already predetermined (hence the cause and effect thing), so I don't really see it protecting him from law manipulation. If anything, law manipulation would be exactly the kind of ability that counters acausality type 4, whereby the user has the ability to change those parameters and the rules that govern them
Click to expand...
Operating under a different cause and effect cycle means that you also work under different laws, since laws work under cause and effect. If you were to change the laws of one system, it logically wouldn't apply to an entirely different system
 
BluudyManikin777 said:
Holy shit, this battle has the most amount of votes I've ever seen in VS Battle (this site specifically) history. Never thought a match between these two verses would get this kind of attention
Click to expand...
Yeah... and 4K views. TTGL and Toaru's rivalry is almost, if not as heat as Tenshura and Maou Gakuin or Naruto and Bleach.

But good thing is that such rivalry is not as cancerous as they are.
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
The only incon scenario I see is, if Simon really couldn't do shit in nonexistent place while Chimera can't interact with Simon's AE.
Click to expand...
Or Simon can one shot via AP while Chimera can BFR (both are defeated by each other),but I highly doubt it's Chimera's first move (and can interact with AE) while Simon goes with drilling in character
 
I don't know if I already voted before, but Simon arguments are making way more sense, if Chimera only wincon is BFR which it doesnt really uses in the start, its pretty unlikely that it can win
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
Something like she can destroy the world with her mere presence and turns it to nonexistent place.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's BFR since Simon didn't move to different place at all,otherwise any character that can destroy all things in existence will have BFR by default (and yeah no BFR on profile,that's why I highly doubt it's first move)

And her profile said she will destroy by moving her arm or leg instead of just mere presence
 
Bump.

I added the situation with the votes in the title of the thread so that everyone can see more easily if new votes arrives.
 
This fight had much more participation than I would have ever thought, but at this point the arguments for both fighters were told and I guess there isn't much more to say.

Is everyone okay with ending this fight with an Incon, considering that the votes are equal?
 
With the new vote in favor of Simon, I would say to wait a bit before starting the grace for Incon.
 
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