Simon the Digger vs Chimera (GRACE ENDED)

[Delta333]

Nice

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

If @DontTalkDT had nothing to say then it is a grace. Let's wait for a moment.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The 1,920x comes from a scaling chain, showing that character's are more powerful than each other, with values that were created through reasoning. So to just say that 1,920 x infinity doesn't exist, is exactly like saying the characters in TTGL don't get anymore powerful after Simon integrated the Multiverse. Significantly affecting a single 11 dimensional infinite universe is an infinite baseline, and significantly affecting an infinite collection of infinite universes or an infinite multiverse, would reasonably be infinity^2 times baseline. This is already accepted, as you've said, significantly affecting an entire multiverse is better than a single universe. But the third infinity comes from Spiral Power being stacked on top of Simon already having an infinite multiverse. The argument was never that there was more than one infinite multiverse. And to completely disregard Spiral Power as stacking another infinity on top, is exactly like saying that Simon without Spiral Power is as powerful as Simon with Spiral Power, which is absolutely not true at all. Then there's 1,920 x Infinity^3 via a scaling chain, because the characters do indeed get more powerful. So yeah, this has already been officially accepted

Characters can in-universe be stronger than each other, but that doesn't mean they upscale in trans-fictional comparison. It's like an infinitely strong character might be weaker than a infinitely +1 strong character, but that doesn't mean that the infinitely +1 strong character is stronger than an infinitely strong character from another verse. After all, the infinitely strong character could, in comparison, have been infinite -1 strong in the other verse. The metric doesn't hold up to trans-fictional comparison.

In infinite multiverses isn't higher than an infinite multiverse. Those are the same thing. See the tiering system FAQ on that.

So yeah, nothing except the infinite multiverse stuff actually is meaningful.

Of course, this has been shown in the blog that GreatIskandar sent like numerous times here. The entire Multiverse is multilayered with 11 dimensions as per Work Soul

I mean, there is a difference between the multiverse being 11D, one universe being 11D and every one of infinite universes being 11D. I have admittedly not read the entire thing. That's why I ask.

Regardless Simon always has his cosmology around with him. Has the non-existent area ever made something of that structure just disappear?

Not really, but it doesn't really matter. If Simon can't enter the place the fight takes place in he would lose due to BFR.

If it's not the same thing, the Extradimensional Labyrinth doesn't work like that, it not only traps one mind into infinite branching paths but rather, it forces one mind to perceive infinite possibilities simultaneously, feeling of being an infinite number of people across on different universes, all at once.

So how would that be a feat of resisting something just overwriting your mind then? Seems like fundamentally different stuff.

I will say his abstraction would prevent that, his Abstract Existence was misunderstood being akin conciousness, mind or something alike which is not true by the way. Simon's Abstract Existence is an abstraction of Spiral Power, taking a shape of thought (or actually emotion, hope, willpower or anything alike) that encompasses his entire selves (and universes) throughout the multiverse, in all universes and all points of time, it can as well be combined with a spacetime like the Super Spiral Universe aka TTGL itself. Because Spiral Power is fundamental, it is a power source of evolution that makes up the reality as the underpinning of The Universe.

Soooo... how does being some mind/energy being imply resisting soul hax? Still missing that step.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What's that entire Big Bang/Big Crunch argument about btw.?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

So yeah, nothing except the infinite multiverse stuff actually is meaningful.

Did I ever mention more than one multiverse? No, the 3rd infinity comes from Simon having infinite Spiral Power, on top of have an entire Multiverse as a part of him. If you want to downgrade Simon, go ahead and try to do it in content revision, because anyone who is actually knowledgeable in the series will straight up disagree with you. You just keep strawmanning, by saying my argument for the 3rd infinity was because of more than one multiverse

It's like an infinitely strong character might be weaker than a infinitely +1 strong character, but that doesn't mean that the infinitely +1 strong character is stronger than an infinitely strong character from another verse

Why do you even think that this makes any whatsoever sense? This is like saying every single 2-A character is baseline in relation to each other, regardless of the scaling chain in whatever 2-A verse, because its infinity regardless. If course, everything equals infinity in the end, but each respective verse treats these characters as if they were above baseline, so why are you saying that we SHOULDN'T treat them as such?

If Simon can't enter the place the fight takes place in he would lose due to BFR

Well as @GreatIskandar14045 explained, Simon can exist in a place of Non-Existence, via still existing after the Big Crunch, which is the collapsing of the universe, bringing it to absolute nothingness. But it isn't just matter, because the Big Bang in TTGL is explicitly the creation of the entire universe, aka the entire cosmology, because Anti-Spiral uses the word "universe" in context to the entirety of TTGL itself. It's logical that the inverse of the Big Bang, which is the Big Crunch, would also collapse everything, including time itself. And it does matter that he has his cosmology. In the end, he'll always be in a place that exists, because of the Multiverse being connected to him, it ultimately goes where ever he does. The void does not have any feats of erasing something of this size and structure. Therefore, the "BFR into a Non-Existent realm" argument is utterly pointless, as he can exist in non-existence and his physiology makes it so that there's something there

 

[Accelerate420]

What's that entire Big Bang/Big Crunch argument about btw.?

He's not understanding that a Big Crunch only constitutes, compression of all mass and energy into a singularity and I don't know how else to put it. The standards page also agrees with this shurgs. He also seems to be extrapolating time and space are erased by appealing to visuals and the vague transcending time and space with no context, as you said before, when the evidence is simply not there. Not that a big crunch/big bang remotely equates to an imaginary void of nonexistence that Chimera produces so we're pretty much arguing a moot point.

 

[CinCameron20]

Chimera FRA for now

 

[Zensum]

Also voting Chimera if I wasn't counted.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Did I ever mention more than one multiverse? No, the 3rd infinity comes from Simon having infinite Spiral Power, on top of have an entire Multiverse as a part of him. If you want to downgrade Simon, go ahead and try to do it in content revision, because anyone who is actually knowledgeable in the series will straight up disagree with you. You just keep strawmanning, by saying my argument for the 3rd infinity was because of more than one multiverse

Well, sorry if I misunderstood. I think I got confused by you saying affecting 11D was the first infinity, since I assumed we were talking about baseline 11D not baseline High 1-C. In that case, Chimera has that infinity, too, though. Infinite spiral power doesn't stack beyond simply infinite multiverse or at least it would need better evidence than just infinite power being there.

And let's not get into "every knowledgable member would agree"-stuff. A bad argument and, believe me, much of the To Aru crowd would agree with a lot of upgrades that aren't applied for (in my opinion) good reasons.

Why do you even think that this makes any whatsoever sense? This is like saying every single 2-A character is baseline in relation to each other, regardless of the scaling chain in whatever 2-A verse, because its infinity regardless. If course, everything equals infinity in the end, but each respective verse treats these characters as if they were above baseline, so why are you saying that we SHOULDN'T treat them as such?

Because infinity has no baseline. You can have half of infinite power and still be in the same tier, with the same infinities. Without objective baseline, being 2x the baseline wouldn't equate to being stronger.

That's pretty much also why it was agreed busting 2 infinite multiverses isn't higher range than having busted 1. Whether you bust 2 infinite multiverses or 2 halves of one, is the same thing. It's just described differently on a subjective basis.

You can be higher than baseline, but it needs an argument that upholds within the ambiguity of what "baseline" is for an infinite tier.

Well as @GreatIskandar14045 explained, Simon can exist in a place of Non-Existence, via still existing after the Big Crunch, which is the collapsing of the universe, bringing it to absolute nothingness. But it isn't just matter, because the Big Bang in TTGL is explicitly the creation of the entire universe, aka the entire cosmology, because Anti-Spiral uses the word "universe" in context to the entirety of TTGL itself. It's logical that the inverse of the Big Bang, which is the Big Crunch, would also collapse everything, including time itself. And it does matter that he has his cosmology. In the end, he'll always be in a place that exists, because of the Multiverse being connected to him, it ultimately goes where ever he does. The void does not have any feats of erasing something of this size and structure. Therefore, the "BFR into a Non-Existent realm" argument is utterly pointless, as he can exist in non-existence and his physiology makes it so that there's something there

Well, a few things. For one, scientifically neither the big bang nor the big crunch create or destroy spacetime. Not sure if TTGL has any particular statements regarding the subject that change that.

Second, existing outside spacetime isn't equivalent to existing in non-existence. We are talking about a place that, should it get a location profile (which might not be a bad idea), would have something like NEP Type 2 listed.

And lastly, you are misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying Simon gets BFR'd into a void. I'm saying Chimera turns the place they are fighting in into a void and Simon exists outside of it. He isn't getting BFR'd into the realm, he is getting BFR'd out of it. He can have his cosmology, but he will need to have it somewhere else.

 

[Accelerate420]

Not sure why my vote for Chimera wasn't counted.

 

[Confluctor]

Chimera FRA

 

[ThanatosX]

Not sure why my vote for Chimera wasn't counted.

Because the thread is long and I might have missed some votes.

If anyone wants to vote, I would suggest to make a separate comment writing "I vote for..." or clearly saying "I vote for..." at the beginning or at the end of a comment. This way is easier for me to count them.

Anyways, at the moment the situation is: 9 votes for Simon, 5 votes for Chimera and 0 for incon. If I missed some votes, please let me know.

 

[Axscell]

Voting Chimera via soul/mind hax, "void" and superior probability manipulation. Clearly, any AP difference (doubtful that there's even any) here is negligible, and all of the previously mentioned hax, coupled with law and mathematics manipulation just further pushes it into Chimera's favor.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Clearly, any AP difference (doubtful that there's even any) here is negligible

I wouldn't go that far, although I currently think Chimera has pretty good chances with law/soul hax, too. I guess I vote Chimera for the time being to get this out of grace.

 

[Fixxed]

He isn't getting BFR'd into the realm, he is getting BFR'd out of it. He can have his cosmology, but he will need to have it somewhere else.

although in BFR it doesn't work, because Simon himself can return to the Realm forcibly as in the case of Simon entering the Anti spiral realm by Teleport

 

[Heavens_Feel]

although in BFR it doesn't work, because Simon himself can return to the Realm forcibly as in the case of Simon entering the Anti spiral realm by Teleport

Returning to a different realm is not the same as entering non-existent space. That's false equivalence.Simon can't do anything in the hidden world as proven above.

 

[Delta333]

What is the argument for law hax being countered by acausal type 4?

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Characters can in-universe be stronger than each other, but that doesn't mean they upscale in trans-fictional comparison. It's like an infinitely strong character might be weaker than a infinitely +1 strong character, but that doesn't mean that the infinitely +1 strong character is stronger than an infinitely strong character from another verse. After all, the infinitely strong character could, in comparison, have been infinite -1 strong in the other verse. The metric doesn't hold up to trans-fictional comparison.

Well, sorry if I misunderstood. I think I got confused by you saying affecting 11D was the first infinity, since I assumed we were talking about baseline 11D not baseline High 1-C. In that case, Chimera has that infinity, too, though. Infinite spiral power doesn't stack beyond simply infinite multiverse or at least it would need better evidence than just infinite power being there.

And let's not get into "every knowledgable member would agree"-stuff. A bad argument and, believe me, much of the To Aru crowd would agree with a lot of upgrades that aren't applied for (in my opinion) good reasons.

Because infinity has no baseline. You can have half of infinite power and still be in the same tier, with the same infinities. Without objective baseline, being 2x the baseline wouldn't equate to being stronger.

That's pretty much also why it was agreed busting 2 infinite multiverses isn't higher range than having busted 1. Whether you bust 2 infinite multiverses or 2 halves of one, is the same thing. It's just described differently on a subjective basis.

You can be higher than baseline, but it needs an argument that upholds within the ambiguity of what "baseline" is for an infinite tier.

No...?
Since when did this rule apply? Basically, you're saying that if a character could casually one-shot another 2-A characters, or one-shotting baseline 2-A characters in plain english, it wouldn't matter here because it doesn't necessarily apply to other fictions via this addition/multiplication of infinities argument which is completely unrelated to chain scalings at all, actually.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. Multiplier/chain scaling being capable to goes beyond infinite power has been universally accepted, this is completely different thing than adding the number of universes to an already infinite universes which will still result the same cardinality because all countably infinities are equal, everybody knows this like, there's no need to affirm this once more. Let's say, Post-Multiverse Labyrinth Simon was infinite baseline High 1-C (ignoring the fact that he might be more powerful via the gap between universes being unknownable), he then combines his power with his many friends (that each being equal to him) in order to form a greater power, TTGL. TTGL transformed to STTGL, much greater power again. Then have we have Post-Apotheosis Simon (the key we used right now) inherited the power of STTGL and gained a massive power amplification through the trust of his friends (in Gurren Lagann, you can amp your power via fighting spirit) and finally killed the Anti-Spiral after struggling in vain. That's chain scalings, that's reactive evolution, and that's how a drill works.

"We evolve beyond the person we were a minute before! Little by little, we advance a bit further with each turn. That's how a drill works!!"

In infinite multiverses isn't higher than an infinite multiverse. Those are the same thing. See the tiering system FAQ on that.

No one said a multiple set of infinite multiverse being higher than an infinite multiverse, we all knows that (well probably not for Toaru folks here since they seem to lack knowledge regarding how Tiering System works). Chain scalings and reactive evolution definitely are still things.

I mean, there is a difference between the multiverse being 11D, one universe being 11D and every one of infinite universes being 11D. I have admittedly not read the entire thing. That's why I ask.

Exactly, we are all aware of that and as I said, the universes are branched out via quantum cosmology. If there's 11D universes in the 11D multi-layered multiverse then there's an infinite number of 11D universes, also 4D universes are quiet much nonexistent as they are never mentioned at all, Gurren Lagann adapted M-theory with brane cosmology, to be precise.

Not really, but it doesn't really matter. If Simon can't enter the place the fight takes place in he would lose due to BFR.

This will be brought up by other arguments, see below.

So how would that be a feat of resisting something just overwriting your mind then? Seems like fundamentally different stuff.

Then mind to elaborate how Chimera's mind manipulation is anything as impressive, then? If that doesn't make much difference then how the hell do we determine the potential of mind manipulation?

Soooo... how does being some mind/energy being imply resisting soul hax? Still missing that step.

How does being an abstraction of a power source that resides deeper than the whole cosmology is just something akin being conventional mind/energy?

Well, a few things. For one, scientifically neither the big bang nor the big crunch create or destroy spacetime. Not sure if TTGL has any particular statements regarding the subject that change that.

Second, existing outside spacetime isn't equivalent to existing in non-existence. We are talking about a place that, should it get a location profile (which might not be a bad idea), would have something like NEP Type 2 listed.

And lastly, you are misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying Simon gets BFR'd into a void. I'm saying Chimera turns the place they are fighting in into a void and Simon exists outside of it. He isn't getting BFR'd into the realm, he is getting BFR'd out of it. He can have his cosmology, but he will need to have it somewhere else.

In TTGL they kind of do, a Big Bang create a universe and a Big Crunch collapses a universe, after the universe is collapses everything becomes the realm of nothingness. It is not just being outside time and space since there's nothing left outside of it, they were fighting at the edge of the multiverse.

He's not understanding that a Big Crunch only constitutes, compression of all mass and energy into a singularity and I don't know how else to put it. The standards page also agrees with this shurgs. He also seems to be extrapolating time and space are erased by appealing to visuals and the vague transcending time and space with no context, as you said before, when the evidence is simply not there. Not that a big crunch/big bang remotely equates to an imaginary void of nonexistence that Chimera produces so we're pretty much arguing a moot point.

That's where the source of your denialism comes from, you insist that it simply compresses mass and energy into a singularity after so many implications that it is more than that. I don't like being that person but, if you don't know anything about the context then maybe staying silent and put down your ignorance is the best option.

My vote still, remain unchanged. Simon drills.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

"Reeee Toaru people don't understand the tiering system!"

says the blue name to the guy who helped create the tiering system.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I mean, said by the guys who insisted an infinite 11D universe is = an infinite number of 11D universes, and infinity being transcendental the concept of numbers?

 

[Delta333]

Also, it is very ironic for you to say that since our standards already said that an infinite multiplier of Low 2-C is unable to reach 2-A because the range between them universes is unknownable, aka an infinite 11D universe to infinite 11D universes on this case.

^^^

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I thought Simon had it in the bag but Chimera FRA for DT’s reason.

 

[Delta333]

People should stop follow DT reason or whatever just because he is a staff,seriously what can Chimera even do here?Mind hax get resisted,law hax will not bypass acausal type 4,using soul hax to abstraction which is more fundamental than everything in entire Toaru verse...do I even need to explain why would it not work?

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

They have to argue first for Simon's Abstract Existence being just a mere mental/thought abstraction, yeah. Which something I can refute for all day.

Edit: I will be busy for a day or two, even if there are counter-arguments, I'd like to refrain this thread to be closed before I can say a word or two, stating my opinion I meant.

 

[Delta333]

Now I realize that Simon has HDE on his profile,can Chimera's soul and mind hax affect something like that? Because from what I see no one in Toaru has HDE at all

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Come on guys, Simon got this in the bag, they can't affect AE1 that's deeper than time and space itself can they?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

After reading, Chimera FRA. I don't think DT points were sufficiently addressed.

 

[Delta333]

After reading, Chimera FRA. I don't think DT points were sufficiently addressed.

Can you tell me which point of DT didn't get countered?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Can you tell me which point of DT didn't get countered?

All of them.

 

[Delta333]

All of them.

Because?Maybe I miss something but did DT even explain why can soul and mind hax affect HDE?Or why can law hax bypass acausal type 4? Sorry for these questions but I just want to make sure that you actually read this damn thread instead of following the FRA train

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Because?Maybe I miss something but did DT even explain why can soul and mind hax affect HDE?Or why can law hax bypass acausal type 4? Sorry for these questions but I just want to make sure that you actually read this damn thread instead of following the FRA train

U don't need to make sure of anything. Cause I really am just following the FRA train.

 

[Delta333]

lol ok

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

In all seriousness,

The counter argument for Simon not being able to operate in Chimera's nonexistence flat out makes no sense.

Chimera's probability hax is superior.

No real concrete counter for the passive and active soul hax.

The counter arguments for why Simon's mind resistance to Chimera's hax is relevant/why Chimera can't effect an abstraction of things she can easily control is nebulous/muddled and difficult to parse through.

How Simon's acausality hax fits in seems interesting but I don't believe the fight ever gets that far.

 

[N_Kardashev]

Simon also has absolute will, that is can reality warp with just willpower... so he resists law/mind/probability hax anyway

 

[Delta333]

In all seriousness,

The counter argument for Simon not being able to operate in Chimera's nonexistence flat out makes no sense.

Chimera's probability hax is superior.

No real concrete counter for the passive and active soul hax.

The counter arguments for why Simon's mind resistance to Chimera's hax is relevant/why Chimera can't effect an abstraction of things she can easily control is nebulous/muddled and difficult to parse through.

How Simon's acausality hax fits in seems interesting but I don't believe the fight ever gets that far.

So afterall you still don't have any reason to explain how can soul and mind hax affect HDE? Saying "no concrete counter" without further explanation literally makes no sense,and who tell you that being abstraction is the only reason for resistance to mind hax? He resists it because he can escape AS's labyrinth duh

 

[Sus]

simon FRA

 

[Bernkastelll]

I think simon arguements are more convincing for now

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

The counter argument for Simon not being able to operate in Chimera's nonexistence flat out makes no sense.

Elaborate.

Chimera's probability hax is superior.

That's debatable, and Simon should immune any conventional probability hax due to him encompassing all kinds of possibilities of himself whether that are already existed or will exist, on all universes and all points of time. Also Abstract Existence.

No real concrete counter for the passive and active soul hax.

Abstract Existence.

The counter arguments for why Simon's mind resistance to Chimera's hax is relevant/why Chimera can't effect an abstraction of things she can easily control is nebulous/muddled and difficult to parse through.

Simple, can Chimera affect an abstraction that work as the center, or fundamental power source that governs everything in the Universe? Because that's what the Spiral Power does.

How Simon's acausality hax fits in seems interesting but I don't believe the fight ever gets that far.

I don't underestand why would y'll kept bringing acausality stuffs, when it almost had nothing to do with the arguments that were already presented? Why?

Edit: typos

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Why?

Acausality type 4 being immune to To Aru’s Law Manipulation. That’s the part it played

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Acausality type 4 being immune to To Aru’s Law Manipulation. That’s the part it played

I'm actually not sure about Type 4 being immune to law hax, I thought they were talking about Type 2 = probability hax resistance, something I never used as the underlying of my arguments.