Rematch Shia Haulia vs Fiamma of the Right (6-9-0)

[ZERO7772]

Are you even reading your own thread at this point?
Literally none of what you mentioned above was brought at ANY point during this thread.

Also stop being so self-entitled in your posts please. You are the OP yet you are so biased toward one side and won't count the vote if you don't like the argument? What is this a payback war?

 

[Accelerate420]

If HR's strike isnt teleportation (or spawning on the target), then Fiamma needs Infinite speed via HR

This would be easier said than done if doing Index CRT's wasn't like pulling teeth with the insane downplays going on, but I digress. One day I'll look into that.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Dude. @Expectro I don't know if you are doing it on purpose, but you're strawmanning everything. Fiamma can use the HR as much as he wants. When DontTalk says ( and of course he did in a downplaying manner) he can't use the HR infinitely, he literally means he can't use it infinitely. The same way i can't throw infinite punches. Theres human limitations there, like sleep, fatigue, etc. However those are not noteworthy restrictions on his power. For all intent and purposes he can use it infinitely, not the literal definition of infinite, just indefinitely.

 

[Accelerate420]

In... what way, exactly?

Read the actual series. Touma can't even react to Saint-tier speed. In NT7, he can't even react to Kakine and Rensa fighting. That goes against everything you just said.

Go read the novels.

The whole point of reactive evolution is developing powers when you want (or rather need).

Yes, except that's also NLF territory as much as Fiamma swings is no matter what bias you want to insert.

That's appeal to popularity fallacy. Which is actually listed in the rules, unlike that one you threw at me.
Besides, how is using the given format of this site a fallacy? Isn't the whole point of VSB containing all fictional combat-ready characters in one system?

'Unlike the one you threw at me, this one is listed in the rules'

Oh man you really have no idea what you're doing here. It's almost like democracy is how matches are settled. Calling a fallacy bad because it's a fallacy and using that against me is also a fallacy, you know?

Please reeducated yourself.

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

Fiamma fra

 

[Accelerate420]

So anyways, here are the votes :

Shea : 4

Fiamma : 7

• A final vote tally of 7-4 will be considered valid.

Well, I think this can be concluded then.
Is what I would say but now we're currently in grace. So. I guess we can all just keep knocking eachother around with the same arguments for a while.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Fiamma FRA. I really don't see how Fiamma can't just swipe and call it a day.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

And now we have people saying touma has ftl reactions and HR is peak human speed.

Where are these people coming from? Did you read the novels upside down or something?? It boggles the mind.

Oi, I'm not the one who wrote these profiles. I'm just using them as they are.
Considering how many times I've seen people here dismissing things because "they are not on the profile", I don't feel bad at all doing so.

Read the actual series. Touma can't even react to Saint-tier speed. In NT7, he can't even react to Kakine and Rensa fighting. That goes against everything you just said.

Othi's crossbow says no.
Not to mention, if Touma can't react to saint-tier speed, then where does that leave Holy Right, which he CAN react to?

Spoiler

It's almost like it's easier for him to react to supernatural or something.

Oh man you really have no idea what you're doing here. It's almost like democracy is how matches are settled. Calling a fallacy bad because it's a fallacy and using that against me is also a fallacy, you know?

You pretty much said to stop the discussion because you say so and let people who didn't participate decide the outcome.

Also, I'm still waiting for an example of HR negating ressurection or Fiamma going for sealing early in-character.
Not to mention, info manip is still a weakness of Right Hand of NLF.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The point of the argument was that she ressurrect instantly infinitely and with RE use the hax that she already have and that he don't resist in any sort of way. If Fiamma kill her with swing the hand then he need to swing it constantly praying that she don't develop fast a counter for that with her haxs, and because the seal don't see much in character to the point in which she use it is more probably she already developed a counter and kill him in a moment.

Most of the claims to Fiamma are for things not in the profile, so that's even more reason to ignore them until applied in a CRT.

And the last, just because in a serie a ability is treated as "autowin" "invincible" "ommipotent", etc don't mean anything in this site, more with a ability that haven't even showed the level of invincibility you claim.

 

[Onilcx]

I'm new to the site, so could be wrong, but seems stupid to use thing that aren't in the profile, and the argument for Shea seems to make more senses, so Shea FRA.

 

[Rez]

The point of the argument was that she ressurrect instantly infinitely and with RE use the hax that she already have and that he don't resist in any sort of way. If Fiamma kill her with swing the hand then he need to swing it constantly praying that she don't develop fast a counter for that with her haxs, and because the seal don't see much in character to the point in which she use it is more probably she already developed a counter and kill him in a moment.

Most of the claims to Fiamma are for things not in the profile, so that's even more reason to ignore them until applied in a CRT.

And the last, just because in a serie a ability is treated as "autowin" "invincible" "ommipotent", etc don't mean anything in this site, more with a ability that haven't even showed the level of invincibility you claim.

Holy right can work on it's own too and she doesn't have resurrection on her profile

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

she doesn't have resurrection on her profile

Excuse me, what?
Shia:

Resurrection (Automatically resurrects upon death)
Reactive Evolution
Matter Manipulation
Spatial Manipulation
Time Manipulation
Soul Manipulation
Information Manipulation
Matter Manipulation
Intangibility
Resistance to Spatial Manipulation

Fiamma:

Limited Spatial Manipulation
BFR
Sealing
Resistance to Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Please, use the things listed in the profile, any vote for something that don't appear in the profile is a no, if you want this can even be paused until a CRT is made and things are added to the profile of Fiamma.

 

[Rez]

Excuse me, what?

She should have type 5 immortality added to her profile then

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

She should have type 5 immortality added to her profile then

I also thought so but because Pegasus only added ressurrection I believed in his judgement and didn't tried to add immortality to her profile, maybe after this I talk with him to see if should be added, but that's aside, currently she have listed the resurrection so that don't change the argument.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Immortality Type 5 has nothing to do with resurrection though.

 

[Rez]

I meant type 4

Immortality Type 5 has nothing to do with resurrection though.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Anyways, that's for a future CRT, don't really matter for the current discussion.

 

[Accelerate420]

Oi, I'm not the one who wrote these profiles. I'm just using them as they are.
Considering how many times I've seen people here dismissing things because "they are not on the profile", I don't feel bad at all doing so.


Othi's crossbow says no.
Not to mention, if Touma can't react to saint-tier speed, then where does that leave Holy Right, which he CAN react to?

Spoiler

It's almost like it's easier for him to react to supernatural or something.

You... do realize he didn't react /to it/ .
Touma literally has the gimmick of reading supernatural movements. It's the same thing here. He canonically can't even bullet time.

Kamijou Touma’s Imagine Breaker could be forcibly neutralized by moving faster than an ordinary person’s kinetic vision could follow.

- GT4

You sound like someone whose seen some feats and hype statements, looked them up and forgot to actually read the context of it.

You literally defeated your own argument against the HR earlier for this one. HR can't properly assess itself to Touma and all its stats scale to the opponent he's facing.

But hey, your lack of knowledge aside and clear bias, this isn't what the thread is for. Go make a CRT or something because FTL+ reactions isn't on the profile. An argument you enjoy using.

 

[Scorby3050]

Shia FRA.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Touma literally has the gimmick of reading supernatural movements. It's the same thing here. He canonically can't even bullet time.

Canonically he has a gimmick of perceiving microscopic changes in the environment, not reading supernatural.
Also, his kinetic vision was capable of following the battle between Kaori and Carissa.

And there was also Anti-Skill guy failing to hit him with bullets in OT5, but that could've been just incompetence on his side.

You sound like someone whose seen some feats and hype statements, looked them up and forgot to actually read the context of it.

You literally defeated your own argument against the HR earlier for this one. HR can't properly assess itself to Touma and all its stats scale to the opponent he's facing.

Nope, only power of the hit scales:
“You said that right arm changes its ability based on the strength of your enemy. The stronger your enemy, the more strength it draws out. And to draw out the arm’s power to the maximum, you had to cause World War III to increase the people’s malice. You needed to complete your preparations to make the form of the enemy you must defeat clear.”
OT22, ch. 11, part 3.
Ergo, every strike is equally quick. Try again.

But hey, your lack of knowledge aside and clear bias, this isn't what the thread is for. Go make a CRT or something because FTL+ reactions isn't on the profile. An argument you enjoy using.

M8, all my posts on this site are Toaru related. If anything, I'm biased in the other direction.
Also, arbitrarly ignoring arguments results in arbitrary, inconsistent responses.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

I'm not sure what any of yall are actually arguing about, but this thread seems about done. Can someone close this?'

I might have to look into this verse later, alot of what i'm seeing is questionable, especially when I look into the source material and anime. they seem nowhere near as powerful as some may claim. I think there may be a language barrier of sorts at play here leading to people not understanding the series.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Each successive adaptation of Arifureta is worse than the last, manga being a crap adaptation that focuses on the edge, skipping the classmates, and in general skipping stuff like when Hajime first killed someone.

Anime is a clusterfuck that immediately starts well into volume 1, skipping the beginning, has shitty cgi, and skips a chuck of the story.

You can't use either to argue anything, and if you haven't read the source material including the side stories, you shouldn't make claims about the characters power.

Whatever your issues are, i have no problem providing excerpts with evidence, as for this match, i couldn't care less, knew this was gonna be contentious since mr auto win is involved.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

If instead of just wanking someone as auto win the other part try to understand that just because someone is called invincible in his series don't mean anything here would be good, I already provided quotes and arguments to justify why Shia have more probabilities to win, while the other side just say 'no, she can't do anything and if she do anything is completely useless because the novel say the hand is invincible', of all the haxs she have he only resist one.

But that aside, if the votes that don't consider that he don't resist more than just one hax of Shia, that ignore the resurrection and the RE are counted, then currently is like this:
Shia: 6
Fiamma: 8

 

[Accelerate420]

Fiamma fights are awful and are always like this, enjoy.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Fiamma fights are awful and are always like this, enjoy.

You know that if from the very beginning you don't wanna even consider the possibility that the opponent don't have any win condition, that mean the fight would be stomp and thus shouldn't be accepted, right?

I already pressented many arguments and you refuse even the possibility that she have any win con, in a match both parts have to accept that both sides have win con but in the end they vote what they consider is the side win more probabilities, you don't even want to reach that part so basic.

Aside from ignore the arguments from the other side you also claim things that aren't in the profile, to begin with the so invincible hand don't even have Non-Physical Interaction, so the staitment about that is invincible feel really weak, that's even more true when you only see resistance to soul and mind manipulation in the profile of Fiamma.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Again, if you're gonna use things that aren't in the profiles then pls first make a CRT so that is accepted and added. Also, pls use arguments based on the things in the profile.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Biased thread starters are always a good sign~ sips tea

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Biased thread starters are always a good sign~ sips tea

I aren't biased, I presented arguments for Shia because I'm the more knowledgeable here aside from Pegasus in Arifureta, it was even needed that Pegasus confirmed my reability because someone doubted my words. I'm just asking that you please use the things in the profile and try to understand that he isn't invincible.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Again, if you're gonna use things that aren't in the profiles then pls first make a CRT so that is accepted and added. Also, pls use arguments based on the things in the profile.

She can't dodge his oneshot power. Theres a difference between fighting teleporters and dodging a attack which will always hit, similiar to teleportation. To actually dodge and outspeed it would require infinite speed, like DontTalk said.And we scale this power of fiamma to work against ppl of his tier or lower just so it doesn't turn into big memes.

@Celestial_Pegasus what do you think about her resurrecting? How is this used and how exactly has this been applied in the series. Does it require her body or does she just respawn in thin air or something

 

[Accelerate420]

You know that if from the very beginning you don't wanna even consider the possibility that the opponent don't have any win condition, that mean the fight would be stomp and thus shouldn't be accepted, right?

Uh... yeah. That's why half of Fiamma's matches aren't accepted cuz they're stomps. Why are you saying this like it's not the norm? Are you trying to imply something?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Uh... yeah. That's why half of Fiamma's matches aren't accepted cuz they're stomps. Why are you saying this like it's not the norm? Are you trying to imply something?

I'm trying to imply that for example in the first match no one even heard what Pegasus said and no one insisted that that was a stomp.

 

[Accelerate420]

I'm trying to imply that for example in the first match no one even heard what Pegasus said and no one insisted that that was a stomp.

I wasn't there, so I can't say anything about that. But if she had wincons and people still said Fiamma would win out, I guess by rules wise it's not a true stomp and people were just exaggerating.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

She can't dodge his oneshot power. Theres a difference between fighting teleporters and dodging a attack which will always hit, similiar to teleportation. To actually dodge and outspeed it would require infinite speed, like DontTalk said.And we scale this power of fiamma to work against ppl of his tier or lower just so it doesn't turn into big memes.

Well, if you need infinite speed to react to that as you claim can you give him infinite speed as Oblivion_Of_The_Endless already said he should have?

@Celestial_Pegasus what do you think about her resurrecting? How is this used and how exactly has this been applied in the series. Does it require her body or does she just respawn in thin air or something

I know you asked him, but because I don't know if he want to bother in contest I'm gonna do it. Is resurrection via time manipulation hax from a laser that come from a pocket dimension.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Heavens_Feel All Hajime's harem have a smartphone which is normally in a pocket dimension, it monitors their vitals, if those vitals ever go bad, it automatically opens a portal next to them, firing the laser of Hajime's space satellite.

The laser uses soul magic to resurrect its target. Hajime's laser can only resurrect ppl who haven't been dead for too long, Kaori doesn't really have that restriction as she specializes in it.

But yea basically a person can be revived so long as there soul is still there.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I wasn't there, so I can't say anything about that. But if she had wincons and people still said Fiamma would win out, I guess by rules wise it's not a true stomp and people were just exaggerating.

The you are admitting that she have win con here? Because if that's the case at least it's a progress.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The laser uses soul magic to resurrect its target. Hajime's laser can only resurrect ppl who haven't been dead for too long, Kaori doesn't really have that restriction as she specializes in it.

But yea basically a person can be revived so long as there soul is still there.

No, remember Bel Agartha is time manipulation, not soul manipulation, revive someone with soul manipulation would need to transfer the soul to other body, like it was made with Kaori.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Well, if you need infinite speed to react to that as you claim can you give him infinite speed as Oblivion_Of_The_Endless already said he should have?


I know you asked him, but because I don't know if he want to bother in contest I'm gonna do it. Is resurrection via time manipulation hax from a laser that come from a pocket dimension.

Listen. Just because it essentially teleports doesn't mean we shud give them infinite speed. Its like saying we shud have all teleporters listed as infinite in speed. Its redundant, unnecessary and confusing.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

But people said it wasnt teleport?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Expectro2000xxx Rechecked, you are right

Regeneration magic exposure satellite Bel Agharta
Using the satellite type artifact that was deployed outside the atmosphere, the range where the crimson light could reach became place that would promise abnormal recovery using regeneration magic. Even in the case where the target was underground or indoor, by using spider type golem――Arachne’s in-built gate to send in the light through it, the regeneration light could still reach with pinpoint accuracy.-

Was thinking of Kaori's resurrection which uses both soul and regeneration magic

Soul and regeneration composite magic ‘Mighty Breath of Heaven Turning’――this magic picked out which were the allies using soul magic and carried out convergence-fixing-attachment of the souls that were in the process of dispersing, moreover it performed healing using regeneration magic. As expected, in the case where the corpse didn’t maintain their original shape like being bisected until the body become in pieces or the head was gone, or the time of death had gone past ten minutes, the effect of this magic wouldn’t work on the corpse that was in those states, but other than those cases all the allies inside the radius of four kilometers with the black silver drop as the center would have revival and healing performed on them by this army use recovery magic.

I remember Kaori in the afterstories being able to bypass those conditions of needing a body that isn't completely destroyed.

In terms of Hajime, idk exactly how potent it is, it's time reversal but idk if it would still apply if nothing was left of the person who needs to be resurrected, and Kaori is the best at regeneration magic, so can't really use her as a baseline.

Hajime has used to resurrect ppl he has killed, so maybe something there, but don't feel like searching for it.